View Full Version : PP doing a GW for OLR?
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 01:34 AM
Sorry, can't resist a good acronym!
Just saw an article on Facebook which claims much as GW once did (possibly still do?), Privateer Press will be restricting their trade with online only retailers, as the bricks and mortar stores any wargames hobby depends on (because that's how you recruit) can't compete due to a big difference in overheads.
Anyone got corroboration on this?
grimmas
03-31-2016, 02:07 AM
Haha delicious. I can't wait wait for the back-pedalling from the self righteous PP trolls. Just like the usual suspects did when FFG did it (but still let Amazon sell on line, naughty).
It would be a good thing if they did game stores are a vital part of the industry and need some help. It was good when GW did it, it was good (if half hearted) when FFG did it, it'll be a good thing if PP get on board.
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 02:11 AM
It seems legit in the article, as it claims to be quoting a letter from PP themselves - but without at least a second source, I remain dubious.
eldargal
03-31-2016, 02:47 AM
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.:p
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 02:52 AM
ICWOTUDIDTHAR.
Though I fully endorse this approach from PP.
Online only retailers are freeloading off the efforts of Bricks and Mortar stores. When I was a shop spod for GW, it honked me off no end when the local oik would come in and start encouraging everyone to shop online.
If you wanna do that, then cool. Freemarket etc. Just....don't do it at someone else's place of work where they have targets that need to be met, lest job losses ensue.
eldargal
03-31-2016, 02:54 AM
Yup I don't have a problem with it either really, just ironinc because all the PP fanboys got so smug when GW did it.
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 03:13 AM
http://cdn.overclock.net/b/bd/900x900px-LL-bd20a599_fbz_b2a3ef4cc37b0c1b91031e2a469dff0d.jpeg
And for the same reasons....wonder how many will be frantically back pedalling now, or outright denying that GW did the same thing for the same reasons which they decried as entirely bogus?
It's business sense. Both hands give you the same money. Except only the left hand is out working to increase the pot, and the right hand is just taking out of the pot.
CoffeeGrunt
03-31-2016, 03:22 AM
I mean, I do love pointing out that all GW's evils seem to just be the natural progression of things, given that everyone else is steadily getting around to doing what they're doing. I haven't trolled PP fanboys online in a while, though. :P
I think it's a good move, though. Online retail drives prices down ridiculously low, and brick-and-mortar stores simply cannot compete with them and stay afloat. It's hard enough staying afloat at RRP, nevermind discounting.
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 03:31 AM
Yup.
And if it irked me as a mere employee, imagine what it's like to be a business owner. There's not keeping up with a changing market, and then there's this - sure you can develop your own on-line presence, but that costs money in itself, and doesn't really do anything to change the overheads of your main business. Your only hope is that the new revenue stream more than covers itself. But if you still can't match deep discount on-line retailers (who may well have a full time job as well) then you're right back to square one!
And how can an on-line retailer have a full time job and run a web store? Well, if all you're doing is picking and packing orders, a determined person could easily do that of an evening - you just need to set your delivery times accordingly, and maybe have a single employee on a part-time basis to be in when the courier comes to pick up that day's packages. And when it comes to rush periods (Black Friday, Chrimbo) just book your annual leave to coincide.
Kirsten
03-31-2016, 04:04 AM
used to drive me mad in Game when people would come in to take advantage of your expertise, and then buy online. just going and buying online is one thing, but to actually come and take advantage of everything a store offers, including staff time, to then not reimburse for it...
CoffeeGrunt
03-31-2016, 04:09 AM
used to drive me mad in Game when people would come in to take advantage of your expertise, and then buy online. just going and buying online is one thing, but to actually come and take advantage of everything a store offers, including staff time, to then not reimburse for it...
I know that feel. Used to work in electrical retail, (selling TVs, Hi-Fi and the like.) Amount of times you'd spend a solid half-hour or more going through LCD/LED/Plasma, HD-Ready or 1080p, what brand, what extras, etc, etc with a customer to set them up with the right stuff to suit their needs, and they go, "anyway thanks for your help, but the prices are a bit steep here so I'll grab it online."
I may be biased, but it felt damn rude every time.
The worst ones were people at the local store who would play games there, buy stuff online, then come down and boast about it and how much cheaper it was. :/
Kirsten
03-31-2016, 04:13 AM
yup, very rude. I always try to buy in store where possible. I have a hierarchy of local shop, local chain, then internet. options are limited over here so it regularly ends up being internet, but where possible I pay a bit extra and buy local.
grimmas
03-31-2016, 04:21 AM
It's a probably a policy that was instituted at the request of the independent retailers somethings on the line of "we're getting humped by Internet retailers. What are you going to do about it?"
It just that the Usual saw it as an opportunity to indulge in their Angryhammer hobby. It a bit like when they claim GW is trying to compete with independents at selling their products by always charging full price and never under cutting them. The *******s.
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 04:28 AM
That argument never did make much sense....
'They came to town, selling the same thing for a higher price and drove the cheaper seller out!'
Erm....that's just not how Capitalism works. At all. Market forces etc.
What's more likely is that GW came to town, and did a much better job of getting people gaming and buying than the FLGS.
Oh there were occasional accusations that GW stopped getting orders to the FLGS in time, but nothing to substantiate such claims.
grimmas
03-31-2016, 05:22 AM
When I worked for them it was company policy not to open a GW where there was an Independent that was successfully selling GW in an area, as it as actually better for GW profit wise for this to be the case. I even went to not so successful Independents to run events to help them do better. On one occasion they sent an area manager that's how seriously they took it (I worked in retail as well not trade sales). Of course if the Independent didn't/wouldn't sell GW well that was different matter but a GW store wouldn't be in competition with them.
eldargal
03-31-2016, 06:22 AM
That argument never did make much sense....
'They came to town, selling the same thing for a higher price and drove the cheaper seller out!'
Erm....that's just not how Capitalism works. At all. Market forces etc.
What's more likely is that GW came to town, and did a much better job of getting people gaming and buying than the FLGS.
Oh there were occasional accusations that GW stopped getting orders to the FLGS in time, but nothing to substantiate such claims.
The fact that GW didn't undercut pricing always kind of undermined those claims. Like if you have a FLGS you know and love and a GW next door, the price is going to be the same, so if you can buy product at your FLGS why would you go to the GW? If the FLGS didn't have it in stock then they aren't losing that transaction anyway.
Denzark
03-31-2016, 06:25 AM
My local toymaster/model shop - a good one mind with a cack load of high end model trains - sold GW. GW opened a shop across the street literally 30m away. The LGS threw a track and tried to get local shops to complain about them, they then stopped selling GW stuff.
This vexed me because they had a cabinet of second hand stuff where I used to find the odd gem.
But back OT, the irony of this will make oi laff if it is true.
lobster-overlord
03-31-2016, 06:52 AM
I have had a distribution account with one of the bigger US distributors. PP Currently has in place the same restrictions that GW does that if I don't have a brick-and-mortar location, I cannot buy any product. It doesn't restrict the online part, but PP does have it so that if you are online ONLY, you cannot purchase their stuff at wholesale.
Only 5 companies do this that this distributor deals with. GW, PP, Spinmaster (toys), WOTC (MTG only, I can buy all the D&D I want), and some other company that only has 2 or 3 games, that I can't remember.
So at least in some part, the already do restrict based on seller type.
John M.
Erik Setzer
03-31-2016, 08:15 AM
Love how the GW fanboys and GW trolls call pro-PP people "fanboys" and "trolls." And I normally wouldn't call people fanboys and trolls, but the moment you applied the label to fans of another company while acting in the way you claim to dislike, you earn the title yourself.
I'll skip dealing with the ridiculous praise for GW's business model. Though I should note they definitely don't have any policy in place right now to prevent opening a store close to an FLGS. They did it in my town. There was actually a second store close to the GW store, but it's since closed (and it relied heavily on GW players).
Here's the PP press release (since people love to post rumors and not, you know, do a basic freaking Google search before holding a lengthy conversation):
http://privateerpress.com/press-releases/privateer-press-supports-brick-and-mortar-retailers-with-new-free-rider-policy
Here's the important bit:
Upon enacting this policy, Privateer will monitor the market for free riders and provide a confidential list to its distributors regarding which retailers are offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount while offering little or nothing in the way of services. This list will be updated and reevaluated by Privateer Press through a regular internal evaluation process in which listed retailers who have ended their harmful business practices may be removed from the list and new retailers may be added. Distributors who sell product to retailers that have been added to the free rider list will have their shipments, including new releases, delayed. This delay protects the investment of those distributors and their retailers, who require the unobstructed revenue of a full-market-value product to support community-growth programs. Furthermore, a delay will disincentivize a distributor from selling product to any free rider, because having product on time is critical to the success of its business model. The free rider list will be provided confidentially to Privateer’s distribution partners with an updated distributor’s agreement on April 4, 2016, at which time the policy will be enforced.
Got that? In a nutshell, they're not cutting off sales to online-only retailers. They're looking for ones that provide no value and offer very deep discounts - basically ones that exist just to leech sales of product - and targeting only specific retailers. In addition, they're not even cutting them off completely, just "disincentivizing" distributors continuing to provide to those retailers, though if the distributor feels that money is worth the delay, they can choose to do so, but with a bit of penalty.
It seems any retailer in danger could probably just drop the discount some and get back in PP's good graces. That's a very likely approach, given that there are some areas without an FLGS nearby where people would rely on online retailers to get products. I'd imagine 10-15% is probably safe, 20% is pushing it, but get closer to 30% or more and they're going to put you on The List. There's no hard guidelines listed there, but I think they'd give stores some kind of warning and tell them "if you go to this level, you'll be fine" before they take punitive action. (Cutting someone off when you could correct their actions and continue to make sales through them is a rather daft idea.)
Cutting off all of the stores completely? That's a bad move. Doing this, where they're just targeting stores with deep discounts offering no value (well, other than the discounts, I suppose) to customers, and even leaving an out where said stores might still get product but would have it delayed? Makes sense. Gives room to correct actions, and doesn't punish the ones who aren't trying to be leeches.
It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Smart companies recognize this.
grimmas
03-31-2016, 08:19 AM
Blah blah blah my opinion is fact blah blah blah.
So given what the Lobster Overlord has told us they are restricting to Brick and Mortar and restricting what discount is given. But it's ok because PP. just like it's ok because FFG. But evil because GW. There's nowt like consistency 😏
CoffeeGrunt
03-31-2016, 08:21 AM
Is Erik the PP fanboy we were waiting for?
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 08:28 AM
Nah.
Just another person with seemingly no business experience deciding they know best.
Erik Setzer
03-31-2016, 08:49 AM
Hmm... I seem to have removed my comments about PP, so let me put them back here: I'm not a fan of PP's prices regardless of their having a better excuse due to materials, and don't play their games. Had I believed the original post that they were doing exactly the same as GW, I was going to throw them under the same bus... and had, but then I decided to look up the story more before commenting. I'm not "PP fanboy," and certainly not as much as both of you are GW fanboys with no business experience deciding you know best.
Your dismissive, offensive attitudes to those who don't bow in worship at the altar of GW - even those of us who will criticize other companies - is not helpful to reasonable discussion. Turn off your fanboyism for a moment, or just admit you're as much "trolls" as you claim others are.
That is, if you care about honest discussion. But this is the Internet, so probably not.
- - - Updated - - -
Funny thing is, I had two Mormons stop at my apartment last night (killed about an hour of my time allocated for trying to build an Old-West-inspired settlement in Fallout), and they reacted to my having different opinions a lot better than GW fanboys and GW trolls do, even though I pretty much told them I don't believe in their prophet and reiterated that I don't have any desire to join any church. (I did, however, back up my arguments with explanations and using scripture, as I do here.) Think about that: Religious fanatics are more willing to listen to dissenting opinions than you guys are. Amazing, isn't it?
CoffeeGrunt
03-31-2016, 08:50 AM
I don't worship GW, in fact I haven't bought one of their products for six months, and haven't played it in as long. You're the one accusing people of being fanboys because they can appreciate the business sense behind a particular decision. I just implied you were a fanboy due to an ironic sense of fun.
- - - Updated - - -
Your addendum is just more of you accusing anyone with different opinions as being a GW troll/fanboy, wrapped up in, "gosh, look how enlightened and accepting I am!"
grimmas
03-31-2016, 09:01 AM
Except of course I agree with PPs decision, I agree with FFGs decision and I agree with GWs decision because one needs to be consistent, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I've also worked in this particular business.
Al Shut
03-31-2016, 09:32 AM
Now the only thing I need is a local shop opening near me.
Erik Setzer
03-31-2016, 11:23 AM
I don't worship GW, in fact I haven't bought one of their products for six months, and haven't played it in as long. You're the one accusing people of being fanboys because they can appreciate the business sense behind a particular decision.
No. I'm "accusing people of being fanboys" because the thread opened right up with tossing out the terms "fanboys" and "trolls" toward people who supposedly act toward a company the same way that the people tossing out the terms act toward GW.
I appreciate the business sense of this decision, but I also think GW's decision - which is different, as you'll note if you read PP's press release - is the wrong way to do things. I can appreciate the concept, but I think GW's execution was poor. Given, though, that they have their own retail side of their business, many of their decisions are driven by the desire to funnel sales directly to them, and trying to nix online sales would in theory push people to their web-store... much like having "web-store exclusives" does the same.
While I think PP did this one right (only after reading the method being used... and if they're being dishonest about that, I'll be ready to criticize that), I disagree with them on other things, and barely have any PP products (only having the ones I do because at one point my dad wanted to try to get into the games years ago, and recently I grabbed the starter box because a friend wanted to try it).
I'm also not saying I'm "enlightened" or "accepting." More than the GW fanboy trolls are so petty toward anyone who dares criticize GW that it makes religious zealots seem accepting when it comes to differing opinions.
I'm sick of being called a "GW hater" for example, when I *have* been spending money with them. I've even got some of the AoS books (at least four of them, which will soon be six, and then eight when I can work out the finances, but finding $140 isn't easy). My criticism isn't out of hate or being some fan of another company or trolling the GW zealots, it's because I want GW to stick around and grow again and spread this part of the hobby to more people.
But it does draw my ire when the same people who praise anything GW does while bashing other companies then turn around and suggest that people who prefer another company over GW are "fanboys" and "trolls." It's even more annoying when that comment was based on ignorance about the topic at hand which could have been solved with a very simple Google search.
grimmas
03-31-2016, 11:59 AM
No one is actually bashing another company. In fact they all in fact seem to be in favour of it. What we're doing is mocking the abuse GW recieved for very similar policies. Yes there are some differences but I certainly believe those differences are in GWs favour as they will better achieve the stated aims.
The reason we give you stick is that you will very loudly and lengthily criticise GWs policy regardless of what they are, including giving free product on large sales made by customers (free limited ed Space Marine) and when trade partners make bulk orders (incidentally 30% extra on $500 order is massive) which are pretty standard offers to make. I noticed you were very supportive of FFGs no online with no store policy even when they let the mega discounters (Amazon) still do it.
I don't think you are a PP fanboy you've never mentioned it as far as I know but you're whole stance on this seems to be to try and find the negative (and you do try hard) in any GW move whilst not affording the same scrutiny to anyone else.
In short it's not your opinion that I take issue with its your justification which seems neither balanced or fair.
Oh and if you want to see me moan about a GW business descion go back and see what I said about the single staff stores.
Erik Setzer
03-31-2016, 02:26 PM
I scrutinize others just the same. GW just happens to be the most talked about here, and I don't have much interest in PP (mainly because it'd be too expensive to jump into at this point, if I could even find the elusive local community that seems to be sizable), whereas I do have interest in GW games. People discuss what they have interest in. It's that simple.
I've never seen FFG's policy to comment on it. I know I can get any FFG product at a solid discount. Amazon's the obvious culprit, but there's a chain in Florida with an online store that beats even Amazon often (though they *do* have physical locations, which also have a lot of folding tables set up for people to play card, board, and role-playing games). I can get FFG games, with or without a discount, easier than I can get GW games (except, funny enough, I can't get FFG's GW-based games in a GW store... that's just ridiculous, and something GW should work out a deal to correct, because it'd put a lot more variety of stock on their shelves that they could get a pretty nice chunk of change from while strengthening their partnership with FFG, a win-win).
I criticize GW because I care. Probably more than the people who accuse me of hating.
Anyway, given that GW fanboys and GW trolls will go off on other companies for things they support with GW, perhaps pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in all of that is a bad decision?
This topic would have been much better without fanboys/trolls opening up with shots at other people and just sticking to the story (and improved further if the slightest research had been done prior to said original post).
grimmas
03-31-2016, 05:40 PM
You did write at length on the front page in support of FFGs policy, which I agreed with. Trust me I remember it I wouldn't make it up.
I also believe that you aren't all that interested in PP stuff you certainly haven't mentioned it.
I will pose this question though:
How would you react if GW attempted to control the price an independent stockist sold there products at after they'd bought them because that's what PP are doing on top of the restrictions already in place that the Lobster-Overlord has already told us. Be honest I don't think you'd be happy.
Lexington
03-31-2016, 10:42 PM
Yup I don't have a problem with it either really, just ironinc because all the PP fanboys got so smug when GW did it.
Given that Warmachine didn't even exist when GW did this, that's a little difficult to believe. But, of course, there's no evil too great or too impossible for someone once you've mentally labelled them "outgroup," so...
Mr Mystery
03-31-2016, 11:01 PM
Yeah it did.
I was on Dakkadakka at the time, putting it between 2006 and 2010. Roughly.
Asymmetrical Xeno
04-01-2016, 12:33 AM
My memory might be incorrect but I thought it was around 2008-2010 that GW did that... I could very well be wrong though so feel free to correct me!
CoffeeGrunt
04-01-2016, 02:54 AM
Hasn't Warmachine been around for quite a while now? At least, in America it has.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 02:58 AM
I was playing it as far back as 2002, and I'm fairly sure it came out around....2000, 2001? Ish?
EDIT - 2003, according to Wikipedia, so I stand corrected. My days were the early days anyways :p
CoffeeGrunt
04-01-2016, 03:03 AM
It was winning awards in '03 (http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/5173/origins-award-winners-for-2003), so it must predate that, or at least have been released in '03 at the latest. Wikipedia has it as having been released in '03 (http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/5173/origins-award-winners-for-2003), which sounds about right given what I've heard from long-time players.
When did GW have their online retailer blitzkrieg? The Chapterhouse period, right? What was that, 2013? Significantly more recently, IIRC.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 03:09 AM
Online Retailer thing for GW was a good bit earlier than 2003.
I was definitely posting about on Dakkadakka though - so I'd say between 2005 and 2010, roughly.
grimmas
04-01-2016, 03:13 AM
To be honest the poeple I was referring to may not have ever even played Warmachine. It just that they always seem to mention it in there "GW killed my dog, but PP love me so that's why I moved to Warmachine" post that pop up on the frontpage every 2 minutes. It highly possible as they then never seem to post on the Warmachine posts. They're like bleedin vegans.
Seriously it was getting bloody tedious for a while, I don't mind PP or Warmachine but I don't what to keep having to see people go on about it in GW threads.
Gotthammer
04-01-2016, 03:15 AM
2013 was the recent one (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?30378-GW-to-ban-all-online-sales) from GW.
grimmas
04-01-2016, 03:17 AM
Online Retailer thing for GW was a good bit earlier than 2003.
I was definitely posting about on Dakkadakka though - so I'd say between 2005 and 2010, roughly.
I think you mean later than 2003. They certainly didn't have said policy back then. They didn't really think that much about online back then they didn't even have computer in their stores till after 2003.
- - - Updated - - -
2013 was the recent one (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?30378-GW-to-ban-all-online-sales) from GW.
Good god you really are the Mistress of the link
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 03:23 AM
Should've read 'a good bit earlier than 2013'.
In-store electronic order points certainly weren't in store in 2003 - I was a Key Timer at that point, and I still remember the forms!
CoffeeGrunt
04-01-2016, 03:23 AM
I figured it was recent, because a friend of mine runs an online bitz selling service, and it affected him a bit quite recently.
Path Walker
04-01-2016, 03:25 AM
PP have always done what GW does with restricting to brick and mortar stores but this is them doubling down on that in a way GW never have, they're actively looking at "brick and mortar" stores that aren't directly contributing to the game and the hobby and will stop their distributors from selling to those places. This is a step above and beyond what GW do.
Incidentally, GW seems to have stopped distributing to online only stores in about 2006. I think 2013 was when they stopped shops selling to other countries. Which again caused a big kick off (by the owners of shops who were undercutting local hobby stores abroad)
A lot of these changes could be looked at as controlling the market or some such nonsense if you have your tin foil conspiracy hat on. The easiest explanation and the one GW and now PP give, was that local hobby stores that recruit and retain customers are good for both the hobby and the continuation of the companies.
Without measures like these, the "free market" would gut the hobby and leave us all without a pastime.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 03:26 AM
The Bitz restriction is a different one to their first attempt.
Thinking about it.....I worked Salute 2003 with my then manager, and I recall we discussed it in the Van on the way back?
The Bitz Restriction is to stop 'professional' resellers buying at wholesale, then splitting the boxes. This isn't at all uncommon. Buy say, a multipack of crisps or coca cola, and in place of a Barcode there'll be a warning they're not to be sold separately?
grimmas
04-01-2016, 03:30 AM
Should've read 'a good bit earlier than 2013'.
In-store electronic order points certainly weren't in store in 2003 - I was a Key Timer at that point, and I still remember the forms!
Yeah everything was done on paper, stock checks, orders, financial stuff hilariously backward really.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 03:35 AM
Don't remind me!
When I did my third stint for GW (2009-2010, fact fans!) it had all been computerised, and was a dream! No having to worry about your own stock levels. Electronic zappyscanthing which made Stock Take a breeze (when it worked properly, which to be fair was most of the time)
Also, the Salute I worked had a Richard The Lionheart event model. I'm fairly sure it was 2003, but could have been earlier (that employment stint started in 2001) or later (I then went back, briefly, in 2004)
Path Walker
04-01-2016, 03:37 AM
Was bitz selling ever a real thing? I know every time I tried to do it, no one ever had anything I wanted in stock.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 03:58 AM
There were two or three online stores I was aware of, so seemingly it could be made to work - but whether those were 'fulltime' affairs, or more an evenings work each day, I couldn't say.
I know there were regular retailers offering such a service - I think that's who GW were properly aiming at.
Of course, the odd thing in this thread (in case it's getting TL:DR for new comers) is that nobody is criticising the decision PP have made (or apparently made, still not sure it's corroborated) - not even those who savaged GW for doing the very same thing...
Denzark
04-01-2016, 04:37 AM
The removal of the ability to order almost any sculpt or part thereof, still ranks for me as one of the greatest GW fails. Even with their much vaunted customer service, they cold not provide me a separate canopy sprue for a Storm Wolf as I had lost mine (sufficiently far enough away from purchase that it could not have been 'missing' from the box'.)
Perhaps if they sold any individual sprue at a pro-rata or even slightly increased cost, they may stop bitz sellers. There are enough on ebay that I still think it must be a 'thing'.
grimmas
04-01-2016, 06:16 AM
I'd certainly like to see them offer individual sprues for sale.
CoffeeGrunt
04-01-2016, 06:32 AM
I don't think it'd work with their new sprue designs, really. I mean, you typically get the bits scattered all over the sprue wherever they fit these days. The Tempestus and Pathfinder sprues spring to mind. It's not like you get, say, just the bodies and legs on one, and heads/weapons on another.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 06:39 AM
True.
Plus, would it ever be cost effective? It appears the entire kit starts off as a single sprue, and is then split for packaging.
If you have the desired part entirely on one sprue, you're left with two 'orphaned' sprues that haven't sold. Same if it's spread over two of them. If a given part is especially popular (for arguments sake with no claim to veracity, a Leman Russ turret) then you'll be left over with sprues that just don't sell.
Split the desired part across all three, and there's no point buying or selling them separately anyway.
grimmas
04-01-2016, 06:42 AM
That's very true. Even so it would provide a bit more flexibility. The Tempestus sprues do have a spectacular ammount of bit on them I bought 2 and had enough arms and heads combine with Cadian bodies and legs for another squad of 10 and there's still more bits (not really relevant but I like it 😊)
Lexington
04-01-2016, 06:55 AM
Thinking about it.....I worked Salute 2003 with my then manager, and I recall we discussed it in the Van on the way back?
Yup, think it was May of 2003. I remember very clearly, as I saw the first pre-orders for WM going up while looking for news about GW's sudden ban on online sales.
Maybe think a bit before getting all "smug" yerselves, fanboys. ;)
CoffeeGrunt
04-01-2016, 07:04 AM
Maybe think a bit before getting all "smug" yerselves, fanboys. ;)
Hard to think when I wasn't around then, and no-one keeps records in this community. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
grimmas
04-01-2016, 07:43 AM
Also hasn't stopped them going on about it since then either. 😉
CoffeeGrunt
04-01-2016, 07:58 AM
Given that said bans now apparently matter for nothing, why are people still angry about it? I mean, there's tonnes of online suppliers out there.
Path Walker
04-01-2016, 08:05 AM
They never fully banned online sales is why. Only in NA and Canada.
Erik Setzer
04-01-2016, 08:18 AM
How would you react if GW attempted to control the price an independent stockist sold there products at after they'd bought them because that's what PP are doing on top of the restrictions already in place that the Lobster-Overlord has already told us. Be honest I don't think you'd be happy.
That's effectively why they were doing it. It wasn't just the whole "leech" thing, it was because online stockists directly compete with GW's web store, and holding stuff back as exclusives isn't as effective as trying to remove all competition.
I've also heard (unless they've removed this) that GW has a cap on the discount you can offer on their products, even if you're brick-and-mortar. So they ARE trying to do that. Whereas PP's only targeting online stores without a brick-and-mortar (though there's been some claim they've hit a store with a brick-and-mortar storefront, and if that's true, that's a huge black mark against PP).
So yeah, GW does attempt to control prices. And more.
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/04/the-iron-fist-how-games-workshop-intends-to-monopolise-the-online-sale-of-products/
“North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, webportal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind.”
'Cause, y'know, blacklisting some retailers is totally comparable to not allowing people to sell products at all on a website. But hey, at least they're not controlling the price, just telling you that you can't sell online.
Wait, here's GW in their own words:
http://trade.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Games-Workshop-2013-RETAILER-POLICY.pdf
Again, it's totally worse to just blacklist some than to completely shut off all of them, right?
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As to how some PP players are taking the news, the local WM/H Facebook group has people commenting rather upset, saying they're not happy with the standard prices, and looking at getting into other games instead. Literally every comment on the topic is negative toward PP.
So yeah, some PP gamers weren't too happy with it.
See, not every company has a cultlike following who will excuse whatever they do (i.e. the aforementioned cutting off of all online sales somehow being inoffensive while complaining about a different company blacklisting a few stores). There's just as many "pro-GW" trolls as "anti-GW" trolls, if not more. (I consider the "trolls" to be the extremes. There's a lot of people who genuinely like GW stuff, they're definitely not trolls, but they also won't tell you that a turd is a work of art if it's got the GW label and claim anyone who disagrees is a "hater" or "troll." On the opposite spectrum, I'd consider it trolling if you jump on the GA Order book and claim it's "overpriced" when it's a perfect price and, judging by the other GA books to date, will be solid quality materials that will last.)
grimmas
04-01-2016, 08:39 AM
"I've heard" doesn't really count Erik. Of course there is a practical cap as I doubt stockists will function at a loss.
The first link is just an opinion piece on the boring Aus pricing thing. Basically In Aus pretty much everything is more expensive so stores need to charge higher. Retailers elsewhere will always be able to undercut them so Aus stores won't be able to compete. But hey lets just let them go out of business that'll be good.
Not disputing GWs policy although it is different in the EU.
So once more with feeling they're BOTH doing it. My issue with it is when GW do it, it's greed and evil, but when PP do it (and FFG) it's a lauded move to protect the vital Bricks and Mortar stores. The seventh level of hell is reserved for hypocrites. I like all the policies in question I think they are sensible moves
Cult like following?!? Oh please stop being so silly.
Glad to hear they're showing some consistency though good on them.
Mr Mystery
04-01-2016, 08:53 AM
Yup, think it was May of 2003. I remember very clearly, as I saw the first pre-orders for WM going up while looking for news about GW's sudden ban on online sales.
Maybe think a bit before getting all "smug" yerselves, fanboys. ;)
Nah.
WM was out by then. I got into it shortly after Salute - I know this is right because I first played it properly in Edinburgh, and the events of that period of my life aren't something I'll forget (much as I'd like to) but had the models for a good while beforehand.
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That's effectively why they were doing it. It wasn't just the whole "leech" thing, it was because online stockists directly compete with GW's web store, and holding stuff back as exclusives isn't as effective as trying to remove all competition.
An unsubstantiated claim from THE INTARNWEBS....and directly contradicted with GW's statement at the time.
But hey....what would I know compared to you. I was only like, working for them at the time, and got direct info on it from a Manager who'd been briefed on it at Head Office.
Clearly you're the font of all accuracy by regurgitating stuff you've read online, yeah?
grimmas
04-01-2016, 09:05 AM
Also they don't really compete with people who are selling stuff they've bought of them in the first place. I much more profitable for them to sell bulk direct than to individuals, reduced overheads and the like. Granted not so dramatic with online sales but it'll still cost them more to do it.
Of course relying on others to sell and push your product isn't as reliable so it's a double edged sword.
grimmas
04-01-2016, 09:18 AM
And one more thought I don't believe the people who moan about these sort of things really care about Independent stockists or are outraged at GW or PPs evil business practices. They're just *****ing because they can't get discounts without going to the store (well we still can in the EU might be a plus point for a YES vote there)
God I'm boring myself now. It's your fault Mystery you started this.
Erik Setzer
04-01-2016, 09:49 AM
"I've heard" doesn't really count Erik.
Actually meant to cut that out as there seemed to be conflicting info on it and GW's own policies weren't entirely clear on the matter.
Not disputing GWs policy although it is different in the EU.
Actually, the online retailer bit isn't different. Though they probably don't have the rule on "you can't sell to people in a different country" that they place on US and Canadian retailers. Doubt the EU would look kindly on that.
So once more with feeling they're BOTH doing it. My issue with it is when GW do it, it's greed and evil, but when PP do it (and FFG) it's a lauded move to protect the vital Bricks and Mortar stores. The seventh level of hell is reserved for hypocrites. I like all the policies in question I think they are sensible moves
They're both doing something, but the things they're doing are very different. PP is doing targeted strikes, GW's carpeting-bombing the entire countryside. Assuming PP isn't abusing their policy (they might be, but you said about "I've heard" doesn't count), it wouldn't be a bad policy for GW to have. But GW straight up admits they're doing it to funnel people to their own online store.
If the seventh level of hell is reserved for hypocrites, there's going to be a lot of BoLS posters there... (And Dakka posters, and Warseer posters, and the GW Board of Directors to keep them company.)
Path Walker
04-01-2016, 09:54 AM
GW stockists in the EU can only sell online within the EU.
Its probably cheaper for GW to sell to stockists for them to sell than to sell through their own online store, but, when that hampers the hobby then in the long term thats what they, and evidently PP don't want. GW could save tons of money by closing their stores, those things cost a fortune to run and yet, again, long term, its not worth it.
Erik Setzer
04-01-2016, 10:14 AM
An unsubstantiated claim from THE INTARNWEBS....and directly contradicted with GW's statement at the time.
But hey....what would I know compared to you. I was only like, working for them at the time, and got direct info on it from a Manager who'd been briefed on it at Head Office.
Clearly you're the font of all accuracy by regurgitating stuff you've read online, yeah?
Except Games Workshop's current Retailer Policy outlines that online sales are restricted to Games Workshop only, because they claim they market the brand better, can promote it better, and have to protect their precious IP.
That's their own freaking document for the NA stores.
Strangely, the European one (and the one for Oz) seems to suggest you can sell online if you have a storefront as your primary means of sale, meaning they're only doing that monopolistic bull**** in the US and Canada.
So you can put away your "I was a GW manager!" card and stuff it back in your pocket, and maybe stop being such a pointless tool with your GW-is-awesome nonsense. I get it, they paid your bills, your soul belongs to them.
But when you claim GAMES WORKSHOP'S OWN DOCUMENTS are just "things you hear on the Internet" and I should trust you over GAMES WORKSHOP THEMSELVES because you were once employed by them in the past, it's past borderline stupidity. It's past reasonable discussion. You're being offensive in your arguments and it's clear you can't hold an honest conversation on this.
And if being a GW manager at some point means your word is golden, then I guess the local manager's word is good enough to accept that the Start Collecting! boxes were a North American idea to combat abysmal sales in December, and that Age of Sigmar is only doing "well" when trying to compare it to a product line the company tried to bury alive and then acted shocked when it was barely breathing. (The NA line wouldn't be because he's American either, he's from across the pond and shows off the snooty attitude toward "colonials" too often when he isn't careful. At least the former manager did it as a joke.)
Now keep that "manager card" in the deck where it belongs, and try reading GAMES WORKSHOP'S OWN POLICY and maybe informing yourself before you go off and show off how much of an uninformed tool you are running around screaming "I was a GW manager, my word is so much better than anyone else's!"
Their policy is a stupid monopolistic piece of crap designed to prevent competition, not to help brick-and-mortar stores. (And if you read their ridiculous reports where they do their best to pretend they don't sell games, then it becomes clear they aren't really worried about preserving places for people to play games, because according to them, people just buy their toy soldiers to look pretty on a shelf and be part of an exclusive club. But we just established you don't read what Games Workshop writes and prefer to remind us all you once worked as a GW manager, a job I could have applied for if it hadn't been a huge pay cut with no chance for a raise and zero job security and nowhere near the same level of benefits I have now. But hey, I could have at least told everyone I know better than the company itself, because I was a GW manager!)
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And, you know, normally I'd feel bad about going off like that, but you bloody well earned it with your attitude. I even linked to the freaking documents, you chose to disregard that and attack me because you couldn't be arsed to bother with an honest discussion.
grimmas
04-01-2016, 11:08 AM
GW stockists in the EU can only sell online within the EU.
Its probably cheaper for GW to sell to stockists for them to sell than to sell through their own online store, but, when that hampers the hobby then in the long term thats what they, and evidently PP don't want. GW could save tons of money by closing their stores, those things cost a fortune to run and yet, again, long term, its not worth it.
I'd agree with that.
Not contected to Paths comment.
GWs main sales line in the North America is through Independent stockists and the last figures they gave on this shows that its trade sales to these businesses is over 4 times higher than their mail order sales. Their trade sales in North America went up last year.
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