Gamers Vs Players, your oppinion

[Hunter]

first of all ,pardon my butchering of the English language.

this is something i notest from my local game club, it seems to be divided between Gamers and Players.

Gamers as i see them will try to win at all cost , build the cheezyest , NASTIEST list possible , shameless in there use of unfinished models and proxies of killer units,spontaneously redo there list to fight your army ,will hammer at you when ever you screw up a rule or yell bloody murder when you contest there rule bending "or say nothing when you inevitably forget something to there advantage".

Players on there other hand tend to bring fluffy lists ,will discuses Da rules/codex with ya , not affrade to power down there list agence weaker players ,loves to workout scenarios and historical campaigns with ya,in brief a more enjoyable experience.

this came to mind after loosing the last 20 or so 40k games and dusted off my gobbos to play agance someone who was just as experienced "as in not all that much" and had an awesome time and developed a gobbo/skaven rivalry over the last 3 game ,each week we came back and discussed wear we ****t up the rules and what strategies and builds we should have been doing ,in game we arnt too strict when we forget something and talk about strategies ,i actually learn how to be a better player .

unlike when i play agance gamers , i get so fustrated about getting my *** so completely kickt i just dont learn anything constructive.

so whats the sittuation in your groop

[Necrosis]

My area is somewhat inbetween the two. Everyone is a rule laywer but no one ever brings cheesy list. They are always bringing in fluffy lists (expect that one guy who rarely comes in and thinks he is better then everyone else).

[Dingareth]

We've got the guys who come up with good solid lists, who are fun to play with as they chalenge you and teach you, and then we've got the ones who are stuck in 4th edition, whine and get moody during the game, and constantly lash out at the first group for being too "cheesy" because they can't win anymore.

You can guess what group I'm in.

[Melissia]

I deny your topic because I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

[BuFFo]

My local area is a mixed bag. You can get your fluff and competitive fix here.

[DarkLink]

I have to admit, I'm not the type to pull punches. I play Grey Knights, so it isn't too bad for my opponent, but I will capitalize on their mistakes.

However, I do try and point them out if they're new players, so they don't make them again. Like "if you'd moved this squad to screen this one, I wouldn't have been able to assault both of them and you would have gotten an extra round of shooting". So far I haven't had anyone get angry at me, quite to the contrary, so I guess I'm just a nice guy or something :rolleyes:(except for the relatively ruthless playstyle).

[Sangre]

I agree. Good on you, soldier.

[Schnitzel]

My FLGS is sadly full of "competitive" gamers. :(
With last Tuesday night aside, I haven't enjoyed playing since I was living in Austria. Over there it was me and my Yugoslavian buddy playing back and forth on a space marine rivalry, and everything was story driven. Occasionally one of my fellow (USMC) Marines would show up and toss down some Tau, or our friend would pull out his 6 Monolith Necrons.
House rules were all over the place too, the GW store and staff were awesome and we had a GIANT two table city of death. :D

[Dingareth]

Were you at Springfield? If so I can understand why you weren't having fun. I know it's a longer drive, but if you don't mind going around the Beltway, then Dream Wizards in Rockville, Maryland is definitely a better place on Thursday nights.

Hell, I've pretty much stopped going to Northern Virginia at all since I'm not headed down to GW at all.

[Schnitzel]

Were you at Springfield? If so I can understand why you weren't having fun. I know it's a longer drive, but if you don't mind going around the Beltway, then Dream Wizards in Rockville, Maryland is definitely a better place on Thursday nights.

Hell, I've pretty much stopped going to Northern Virginia at all since I'm not headed down to GW at all.

Game Parlor, Woodbridge. It wasn't fun when I first started as I was a CSM player and the majority of the players are tooled up for tourneys and such. Last week I made the dive into BA (Khorne) and actually stood on a level playing ground with my "fluffy" list. Much funner this way.
It wasn't too fun trying to run a Lash/Oblit list just to be able to keep my head above the water. I also didn't have much mech then either... I've got 6 Rhino/Razerbacks now. And two Stormravens. :D

Is the Springfield shop that bad? I had to swing up there before I went to Game Parlor last week to pick up a Ironclad. Seemed pretty nice... Tried to talk me into an Apoc game for saturday... but with a 1500pt max per player. Blah. Barely able to fit my Oblit Cult of Destruction into that.

[Polonius]

I feel bad for the OP, as nobody likes to play against jerks. That said, what the hell kind of jerk lumps all people that want to win in with cheaters and bullies?

I'm sick of the attitude of the Casual Gaming Mafia, which seems to be that anybody that tries to win is inherently on par with child molestors. Yes, some powergamers are jerks, but so are a lot of "fluff" players.

I enter and win tournaments, I play mechanized guard, and I try to win even when playing fun games. But I also point out rules mistakes that help my opponent, only play with painted stuff in tournaments, and remind my opponent of things he forgot. I don't cheat, I don't bully, and I don't play flavor of the month (I've had my IG for eight years). I'm tired of people getting on a soap box and preaching this sad little chorus about powergamers and competitive gamers as a group.

[Melissia]

Hell, a lot of the self-described "fluff" players can't agree on what's "fluffy" anyway.

[DarkLink]

I'm sick of the attitude of the Casual Gaming Mafia, which seems to be that anybody that tries to win is inherently on par with child molestors. Yes, some powergamers are jerks, but so are a lot of "fluff" players.


They are defined as the Stop Having Fun Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys) and the Scrub (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub), respectively. Because gaming is serious business (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness) (to them).


Man, I love tvtropes.

[scadugenga]

You can be competitive and still be fun to play against. Just have to avoid being an asshat.

Asshats, whether they be hardcore gamers or casually "fluffy," are what ruin the game.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Me and my group play a special version of 40K that focuses on real tactics, army list built around realistic TO&Es, and logical mission parameters.

[Melissia]

IE "I'm gonna take what we think a modern army looks like and apply it to fururistic superhuman monstrosities and armies of giant green mushroom people!"

[Marshal2Crusaders]

What we think a modern army looks like? Or what we know a modern army looks like. And we actually use the TO&Es as put down in the Codexes or Imperial Armors.

And we dont have an Ork player so it really isnt a problem. But if we did they'd be expected to adhere to a fewer elite units, and more ground pounders. Our Tyranid player does this and has alot of fun, given the way we play our Tyranid missions.


If you feel like being a ***** please do so away from my posts. Thanks and have a nice day.

[Zoa]

I'm sick of the attitude of the Casual Gaming Mafia, which seems to be that anybody that tries to win is inherently on par with child molestors. Yes, some powergamers are jerks, but so are a lot of "fluff" players...I'm tired of people getting on a soap box and preaching this sad little chorus about powergamers and competitive gamers as a group.

QFT!

I think the largest problem with the situation is that most of the people who fall into the casual gamer category (at least my local meta) are the people who are into 40k for the modeling and painting aspects of the hobby. In many cases they just aren't that good at playing in the first place so they don't want to try and take it out on people who prefer/are better at the game aspect of the hobby.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

QFT!

I think the largest problem with the situation is that most of the people who fall into the casual gamer category (at least my local meta) are the people who are into 40k for the modeling and painting aspects of the hobby. In many cases they just aren't that good at playing in the first place so they don't want to try and take it out on people who prefer/are better at the game aspect of the hobby.

Just so you are aware, it takes real skill to be a good modeler and converter, and even more skill to be a good painter. Being good at the game aspect is like being good at CoD, no one gives a **** and it has no tangible results.



By all means lets talk about everyones K/D ratios.... I mean W/L ratios....

[Dingareth]

What we think a modern army looks like? Or what we know a modern army looks like. And we actually use the TO&Es as put down in the Codexes or Imperial Armors.

Yes, because the only armies that exist in the entire 40k universe are the ones that are written about in the Codexes and Imperial Armour books. It's great that this works for you, but get down off your high horse and realize that you're the exception not the rule.


If you feel like being a ***** please do so away from my posts. Thanks and have a nice day.

Does anyone see the irony here? Because I do.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Yes, because the only armies that exist in the entire 40k universe are the ones that are written about in the Codexes and Imperial Armour books. It's great that this works for you, but get down off your high horse and realize that you're the exception not the rule.

HOLY ****! Are there armies that dont have codexes written about them?!?!?! If they dont have a codex they arnt an army, buddy. I like my horse, its a Clydesdale, his name is Godfrey, and sometimes I attach a horn to his head and pretend I'm a unicron knight. I dont **** with your fun, dont **** with mine.




Does anyone see the irony here? Because I do.

She will. She and I have been flaming each other for like 3 years dude. She knows its a joke.

[Melissia]

Besides, I don't take anyone here seriously anyway. Helps keep the blood pressure down, and lets me casually mock people who take my extremely opinionated posts too seriously.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Besides, I don't take anyone here seriously anyway. Helps keep the blood pressure down, and lets me casually mock people who take my extremely opinionated posts too seriously.

;)

[Dingareth]

HOLY ****! Are there armies that dont have codexes written about them?!?!?! If they dont have a codex they arnt an army, buddy. I like my horse, its a Clydesdale, his name is Godfrey, and sometimes I attach a horn to his head and pretend I'm a unicron knight. I dont **** with your fun, dont **** with mine.

So the Iron Warriors aren't an army in the 40k universe? The Hurd? Hell, the Catachans don't have their own codex, they must not exist either.

That said, you must not have a head because you've never actually seen it now have you? The mirrors could be lying to you just like GW's codexes.

[Melissia]

Ahem. (http://www.google.com/search?q=define:sarcasm)

[Dingareth]

Never mind, not worth the hate.

[Melissia]

So wait, you hate me for pointing out that Marshall2Crusaders was being sarcastic?

I was doing you a favor, but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

So wait, you hate me for pointing out that Marshall2Crusaders was being sarcastic?

I was doing you a favor, but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

I thought the Unicorn wouldve given it away, you know?

[TSINI]

Jebus, does every thread on this forum turn into sarcy arguments?

ignoring all that rubbish^

back on topic.

yeah I'm not a fan of "win at all costs" mentality, but I can see why people like it, each to their own.

I would also redefine your names for each group
- gamer to me sounds more like some-one playing a game for fun.
- player sounds more like someone who plays the rules (to the letter or power gaming etc).

My local group is definately all in for the fun, we regularly play slapped together apocalypse games, we have some simple houserulings that change some wargear that we disagree with:

for example:
Vox casters of the IG allow orders to be given at any range (not just within the command radius) with the re-roll (they are radios after all...)

we also allow special weapons teams made entirely of 3 snipers and 3 lasguns to split into three 2 man teams of a sniper and a spotter.


simple things like this add an element of "realistic flexibility" to the game. we often chat about ways of modifying rules or gameplay mechanics just to make it more fun.

I'm not saying houseruling = fun, I'm just saying that communication is the key to all of this - we talk, we are friends, we have a joke and a laugh - the bread and butter of the hobby (before fluff, rules, painting, modelling, list building, and winning.)

I carry this ethic over to tournaments. I always learn my opponent's name so I can ask questions clearly, and (hate me if you want) always give my opponent the benefit of the doubt for MINOR things, if they state a rule that sounds too powerful i ask if i can give it a glance (more out of curiousity than doubt) then chuckle "jesus, those dudes are toast then" and get on with it

We have a kid in our gaming group who has a very vague grasp of the rules. he likes to invent his own and is always convinced units can achieve things they can't.
he gets upset when things don't go his way. when his models get killed. its like a sulky face with a hint of lip wobble

- this is the face a "win at all costs" player tends to put on when his dice rolls go awry. or when he remembers my medusa can fire this turn and it can see his "super killy command squad"

I dont think it helps that my friendly smile beams bigger when I see a self confessed "tactical genius" pound the tabletop in frustration, or throw his minis into his case - something i will never ever do myself, I have self control and a grasp on reality - it's a game, i play it for fun. yes i can make the odd screaming noise into my hands when i roll the 50th 1 for that game deciding combat attack, i like to win - who doesn't. but it's not worth throwing a tantrum. it IS worth the laughter afterwards when you go to the score table and tell him how "yet again" I've had my butt handed to me by the noob.

sorry for the long post, but after all the sarcy comments i figured people actually wanting to talk about their opinions on the powergamer extremes and the fluff nutters that take it too far might want to read something on topic.

[Melissia]

You're mistaking powergamers with munchkins. A true powergamer is a good player first and foremost, and generally are far more intelligent and mature than munchkins. You're describing a munchkin.

I hate the term and acronym WAAC. For one, WAC/WAAC should not be used as an insult because it is associated with a group of brave women in WWI and II. And secondly, some morons label anyone who even tries to win into the same group. The above post is bordering on that (although itI don't think it actually is), and it annoys the hell out of me because you don't have to be an immature retard in order to want to win the games you play despite what that above post might claim.

If you are not playing to win, I don't want to play against you, because you're not taking the game seriously. All my armies are fluffy regardless of what people might claim about them, and no matter how competitively strong or weak they are, I always play to win. And I will do everything that I can within the rules to win when playing. That does not mean that I am an ******* when I play. Nor does it make anyone else who tries to win an *******. In fact I see "fluffy" players being *******s more often these days.

It's boring playing against someone who isn't even trying.

[DarkLink]

I thought the Unicorn wouldve given it away, you know?

Nah, we all just though that you painted your room pink and wore ribbons in your hair:p.

[TSINI]

You're mistaking powergamers with munchkins. A true powergamer is a good player first and foremost, and generally are far more intelligent and mature than munchkins. You're describing a munchkin.

I hate the term and acronym WAAC. For one, WAC/WAAC should not be used as an insult because it is associated with a group of brave women in WWI and II. And secondly, some morons label anyone who even tries to win into the same group. The above post is bordering on that (although itI don't think it actually is), and it annoys the hell out of me because you don't have to be an immature retard in order to want to win the games you play despite what that above post might claim.

If you are not playing to win, I don't want to play against you, because you're not taking the game seriously. All my armies are fluffy regardless of what people might claim about them, and no matter how competitively strong or weak they are, I always play to win. And I will do everything that I can within the rules to win when playing. That does not mean that I am an ******* when I play. Nor does it make anyone else who tries to win an *******. In fact I see "fluffy" players being *******s more often these days.

It's boring playing against someone who isn't even trying.

I do apologise for the generalizations (i was talking about the extreme end of WAAC), but i do utterly agree with you on all ofyour points (it may not have been clear in my rambling post) it's not fun to play against someone who isn't trying, but equally it's not fun to play against a "munchkin" sometimes people get confused at where WAAC turns into munchkindom.

i've played waac lists at local tourneys, and the players have always been pleasant and great fun - even while pounding my list to scrap.

my only experience of OTT munchkinlike behaviour is on this forum, whenever a rules debate crops up, there are a few people who try to look at it from a balanced, logical, fun, and agreable angle (the RAI crew - again a generalization)

and there are those people who simply reiterate quotes and exact wordings regardless of the fluff (RAW crew...if you will) [for those who don't know]

the problem with tourny-esque playstyles is they tend to favour the RAW as absolute (spelling mistakes, bad grammar et all)

again, i'm not saying this is always the case. but Winning at all costs does imply that if you were up against a blood angels army for example - you would force them not to have a blast on their vindicator (don't flame me for mentioning this- its already gone too far on the other thread, it's just an example to hand) - as this gives you the advantage by using a rule that is clearly written down and cannot be argued against ruleswise.

whereas a friendly game would favour allowing your opponent to use the blast, simply because it makes sense.

the two aren't mutually exclusive, waac players do often give the benefit of the doubt. but there are those that start to take the wording of rules and the measurements on table too far. which creates a blurred edge between a powergamer and a munchkin.

I have however yet to meet a "fluffy" player that has ruined the game for me. I would find it hard to pin down what a "fluffy" player would have to do to annoy me. I'd like to know your experiences of this type of player.