I want my old guard codex!!!

[Brithian Ranger]

I know everyone thinks that the new guard is sooooo good, but I have been playing with them for over a year, and they are just not fun. Every game is the same thing, me using large amounts of armor to pound the snot out of other armies while my infantry are whittled away.

I mean the whole value of a normal troop squad is gone, without the flavor of doctrines making them cool, I am just not liking them at all, and this eventually leads to fielding a leafblower type list that gets victories, but is not fun for me or the other player.

does anyone agree?

[Denzark]

All I agree with is that you should sell your Guard on Ebay please post a link here.

A viable armoured company without forgeworld books is a good thing. A russian style massed wave attack by crazed inf and conscripts is a good thing. Mad psychic doom is good, artillery batteries like Napoleon's grande Armee is good. Air Cav is good.

Vareity is only a good thing

When you consider what some of the other armies are doing (DS landraiders anyone?) you need some love.

Seriously if you don't like your armylist stop playing one of the endless permutations of guard and get something else please don't whinge about it unecessarily.

[Paul]

All I agree with is that you should sell your Guard on Ebay please post a link here.

A viable armoured company without forgeworld books is a good thing. A russian style massed wave attack by crazed inf and conscripts is a good thing. Mad psychic doom is good, artillery batteries like Napoleon's grande Armee is good. Air Cav is good.

Vareity is only a good thing

When you consider what some of the other armies are doing (DS landraiders anyone?) you need some love.

Seriously if you don't like your armylist stop playing one of the endless permutations of guard and get something else please don't whinge about it unecessarily.


All of this is a lie.

1)Armored Company is NOT viable. Mechanized Infantry, yes. Armored Company, no. Believe me, I run it.

2) This could be done in the old codex, and sucks in the new one. Every one of those infinite units is a kill point. Also, I hate having to take special characters to flavor-up my army. Doctrines? Yes please!

3) Mad psychic doom is weird; I play Guard for the men w/ guts and a bayonet, and tanks. WTF is this wizardry nonsense?

4) Artillery batteries are ****ty against Deep Strikers and Outflankers. Which is everyone who is anyone.

5) Ok, you got me. Air Cav is good. Not ALL of it is a lie, just most.

[Tynskel]

If you are playing guard infantry, and if you want 'doctrines' take the special characters. Essentially all of the doctrines ended up in there.

If anyone frowns on you for special characters, tell them its the only way to get doctrines now.

[fade_74]

paull.....have you ever considered that the problem lies in the playstyle and not in the army? I have played every guard codex. I even played the old catachan deathworld veterans list. (a few times lol)
I think the new dex is the most fun I have ever had. Armored company is viable, it's just not an "IWIN" button. It takes some skill, and forsight of enemy movements. I have never tried the russian style wave army...but I do use massed infantry squads to good effect. Psyker squads are a cool add on....fun and competitive....very useful for their points value. Artillery is great....but you have to support it...of course it's going to die against DSers....if you leave it hanging back all by itself, which is true of anything. Air cav is fun....but I don't use it like everyone else. (I don't use meltaspamming special weapon squads.)

As far as special characters go....IMHO they are much more fun than the old doctrines. They give painters and modelers a great place to show off their skills. I almost never used the doctrine system. I found it lacking for some reason.

Maybe you should also try something new? Not a new army...but a new list. Drop all the crap you see on the net. Make a list that supports its own elements. That is the most important thing about guard.

We are not 3+ savers. We are not toughness 4. We do not have land raiders and thunder hammers. We are not fast. We are not Solo combat monstrous creatures. We do not have jump packs. We don't have arcane magic that can send an enemy to his doom in one fell swoop. We ARE weight of fire. We can bring a hundred lasgun shots to bear on a single unit. We can blast apart the mightiest warmachine with dozens of tanks. We can keep the sky as clear as a June day. We can destroy the greatest fortifications ever built with artillery that can't even be seen. We can throw so many troops at an objective that the enemy will be smothered by the weight of our dead. We are the Imperial Guard. Learn it. Live it. Love it.

[DarkLink]

If you are playing guard infantry, and if you want 'doctrines' take the special characters. Essentially all of the doctrines ended up in there.

If anyone frowns on you for special characters, tell them its the only way to get doctrines now.

Yeah, most of the doctrines didn't really go away, they're just accessible via different means, and sometimes by different units.

Stuff changes sometimes. That's kinda what happens when codices get updated.

[Paul]

paull.....have you ever considered that the problem lies in the playstyle and not in the army? I have played every guard codex. I even played the old catachan deathworld veterans list. (a few times lol)
I think the new dex is the most fun I have ever had. Armored company is viable, it's just not an "IWIN" button. It takes some skill, and forsight of enemy movements.

[snip]

As far as special characters go....IMHO they are much more fun than the old doctrines. They give painters and modelers a great place to show off their skills. I almost never used the doctrine system. I found it lacking for some reason.

Maybe you should also try something new? Not a new army...but a new list. Drop all the crap you see on the net. Make a list that supports its own elements. That is the most important thing about guard.

[snip]


I have considered it. It is viable, I suppose. But foresight of enemy movements does not allow for randomness. I played a Khan army yesterday. A land raider with assault terminators, Khan and some other special character outflanked and systematically blew up every single one of my 9 Leman Russ variants. There was little I could do: Stay away from the board edges, force them to walk, etc. but ultimately those Str. 8 goons are going to Furious Charge my rear armor of 10/11. It didn't end well.

Special Characters aren't fun. Why does Chenkov have to come to EVERY SINGLE battle where large numbers of guardsmen are expended? Why does Straken have to be on four tables at the same time? When did Creed manage to clone himself like 8 times so that he could play 8 games at once?

And I don't buy the "he's actually my regiment commander, Freddy." He's not freddy, he's the same guy as that other player over there has, with exactly the same wargear, rules, and uses.

I don't wish to change lists. I like Armored Company. I want a Command Tank with 3 Squadrons of 3 tanks that aren't using hand-signals to communicate and don't explode into a fireball when a git with a chainsaw nicks the tracks. I want the famous "Tanks of the Imperial Guard" that Macharius spoke of, not some exercise in "how many units can I kill before they punch me" that fielding Leman Russ tanks has turned into.

[Brithian Ranger]

You all make some very good points, and yes the codex does make for some very good and game winning lists, but what I am saying is that guard has lost too much of its flavor in the new codex, and most of the personality is gone.

I also agree with what has been said about special characters, as now it seems they are the only way to give an army character. sure you can model your guard to look cool, but i feel that the rules should reflect the models, and that very personalized armies that people model with camo cloaks, and grav chutes and other things should have rules that match the awesomeness of the models, and not just be some piece of **** 5 point lump of plastic.

I really love the fluff of the guard, and have read several novels about them in addition to playing them for about five years now, and I feel that the current rules just do not properly represent imperial guarsmen, their diversity, and utter awesomeness.

some of you may call me a whiney **** for this, and you are all entitled to your opinion, but this is after all a forum, and i am simply stating what i think.

[plasticaddict]

I liked Doctrines and I don't like special characters. But here I am playing pretty much the same list I've used for years. No special characters, I don't get to take the Grenadiers doctrine anymore, I take vets with carapace armor. Instead of Stormtroopers in Chimeras as troops I take Vets in Valkyries.

I miss doctrines and would like to see them come back in some form or another, however I find that there are plenty of options avaliable in the current Codex if you look for them. In my gaming group there are several of us who play Guard and none of us play the same type of list or use special charecters.

[fade_74]

Maybe it is just you Brith. Maybe you just need a change? If the guard don't seem right to you try something totally different. You shouldn't get rid of your army though. Put em up on the shelf, and grab something else down. Try out a buddies army. I used to get tired of guard too (not since the new dex though), and all it usually took was a game or two with another army to make me want to play them again.

If you like the old army list.....use it. I can't see anyone complaining. But no cheating lol. Valkyries, psyker battle squads, tank squadrons, orders, and all the new jazz go out the window because they weren't in the old list. You would get back the doctrines though.

[Melissia]

I mean the whole value of a normal troop squad is gone

IG troops choices are better than ever. Infantry Platoons actually make sense and don't suck. The fifth edition Imperial Guard codex is the most varied and effective codex in the *******ed game. In fact, if you want an infantry-based army, you can put MORE and BETTER infantry on the field than you ever could. Orders and cheap Guardsmen are awesome like that. You can easily have 300+ guardsmen on the field with lots of relatively cheap heavy and special weapons in a 2000 point army now.

[ColCorbane]

I've got to say, I'm loving the latest codex. There's just so much variety to it, one day I'm playing massed infantry, the next it's massed armour. I can't wait to build up an aircav list and an artillery company.

If you've got a bit of guard burnout, play something different as suggested ealier, you'll soon be biting to get back into them. Whatever you do, don't sell them at least until you haven't played with them for a year or two.

[BuFFo]

The guard codex allows for whatever you want to make, really.

It is not the book's fault most people just want to power game 24 / 7 with it.

[Lord Inquisitor]

You can make an effective infantry based army. I know someone who is looking at all Infantry guard and I believe he will have 300+ guys and about 50 lascannons. It isn't even that hard on you killpoints wise if you blob them.

[Denzark]

@ Brithi yeah ok i was possibly a bit stringent. Feel free to whinge, remember that sympathy is between sh*t and syphillis in the dictionary though. Don't sell up - a decent guard army costs too much time and love to muster.

@ Paul - You can't work the armoured company? Sounds like you sould be in charge of the CO's staff car not tank Squadrons. I'm loving it - last game. Crazed blood angels, jump packs, big units furious charging. When they hit Sqn 1 there was something like 50+ strength 5 going in - not including the power fists. THe sqn was shredded in a one-er.

Then Sqn 2 - defence in depth - proceeded to wax them. I mean mercilessly. I mean kill ratios like I was Wellington and they were the latest poxed French Marshal to dare lift his nose from his garlic stinking mistress and stray into my killing ground.

I am clearly Wittmann reborn, but even so don't diss the tanks if you are not as lucky as me.

@ everyone else you may hae seen me ***** about hestan lists and how he appears everywhere- I feel the same about guard! I don't need doctrines, or special characters. I usually spend 70pts on a psyker lord fella. Then 3 Squads (minimum) of chimaera-borne vets. Then as many points of tanks as possible!

More tanks! More diesel - more HESH, more .50, more 7.62mm, more panzers. this in itself is doctrine enough, I like the thought of aircav but I prefer old fashioned ways.

"Gunner, half right of axis, SABOT, Land raider, on."
"On"
"Lasing now...
Firing...
target stopped"
"By the Emperor look at those hatches burn!"
"Sir, heretics bailing out the left hatch"
"Roger, switching nets... FOO party, Pro Bellum Furioso, Fire mission over."
"Roger, In dedicato Imperator, send fire mission."
"Heretic B*stards, streaming coords now, neutralise for 3 minutes in thirty seconds over."
"Roger, keep your hatches battended down, sending in some of the Emperor's wrath...SHOT! Over..."

[crazyredpraetorian]

I know everyone thinks that the new guard is sooooo good, but I have been playing with them for over a year, and they are just not fun. Every game is the same thing, me using large amounts of armor to pound the snot out of other armies while my infantry are whittled away.

I mean the whole value of a normal troop squad is gone, without the flavor of doctrines making them cool, I am just not liking them at all, and this eventually leads to fielding a leafblower type list that gets victories, but is not fun for me or the other player.

does anyone agree?



I think just the opposite. I love the new codex and hated 4th ed. I mean HATED 4th ed. I really liked 3rd ed despite it's weaknesses. The new codex has given IG the mobility that they always lacked.

[scadugenga]

I do miss my doctrines, and like many here, I loathe special characters.

That being said, the new 'dex is the best I've yet seen overall for the Guard, and for all the reasons prior posters mentioned.]

Do I miss my light infantry Drop Troops? Certainly.

Do I wish Vets still had infiltrate? Again, without a doubt.

Do I miss having an actual "Wargear" section that let you truly customize your characters? Yup.

However...

Vets as troop choices? Oh, yeah...

Platoons that let you field more boots on the ground, toting more special/heavy weapons than any other army in the game? Fuggin-ay.

Company and Platoon orders? RitFO!

Valks? Bring. On. The. Pain!

:)

[Brithian Ranger]

yeah, maybe I just need a break from guard, I think ill go play some fantasy.

Brettonians FTW!!!

thanks for the input guys, sorry about the whining and i will probably just end up crawling back to guard despite my reservations anyway.

[RocketRollRebel]

Yeah man the old IG codex was a nice book but I haven't missed it so much since the new one came out.

What I miss...

Close Order Drill
LD Bubble that made IG redic to try and make run
HQ support squads (maybe I miss those but not too much)
People at tournaments not rolling their eyes and sighing when they see my army and saying "great ANOTHER IG army"

Even with that said, the new Codex is amazing! The variety it allows you is great. You can make so many different builds that will be competitive. One of my favorites was Veterans becoming troops. They took my favorite unit in the old codex and made it scoring. Win sauce!

That said I also feel pretty burnt out on IG after over a year of intense non stop use. I'm planing to put the boys on the shelf for a bit after a tourny next month and bust my Blood Angels out of the closet.

[Vaktathi]

I really don't want the old book back. Could the new book be better? Hell yes, there' a bajillion problems with it (Stormtroopers, LR Vanquishers, sentinels, priests, ID'able heavy weapons, etc) but it's leaps and bounds better than the old one.

You can make very viable all infantry armies, all mech armies, and mixes of both. The doctrines were cool, but the vast majority were never taken and were pointless, and the book lets you do many of them still or offers alternatives.

In terms of variety and flexibility, the new book is far better than the old one, which wasn't bad itself either. There's a lot you can do with just about any IG build.

All infantry can be done, but just needs to be built intelligently. Having a solid number of heavy weapons teams, blob platoons, methods for utilizing command squads while keeping them hidden, and taking advantage of orders and the abilities that the characters can give makes for a real mean gunline. 200+ dudes in 2500pts with 80 heavy/special weapons in big Stubborn rerollable Ld9 blobs...awesome.


Close Order Drill Free bonuses with no drawbacks are always missed. It was cool, but honestly unnecessary.



LD Bubble that made IG redic to try and make run Most officers were only Ld8, and the best were Ld9. All IG units with a sergeant now are Ld8, so you get the same thing without needing the officer to anchor the line.


HQ support squads (maybe I miss those but not too much) Eh, you can field all those units as Troops in a platoon now, aside from the sentinels. The only reason you'd need them is if running an all vets army.



People at tournaments not rolling their eyes and sighing when they see my army and saying "great ANOTHER IG army" I'd rather that than never seeing them and people thinking "oh guard, easy win".

[Commissar Lewis]

I do so miss the Close Order Drill.

Gone are the days of when I'd yell out "ALL MEN, FLYING V FORMATION!" And then line up all my Guardsmen in a giant V shape and sweep across the board. Granted it was as effective military-wise as a flaccid *****, but I'll be damned if it wasn't funny as hell. There wasn't an opponent I faced who didn't laugh so hard they spit out their mountain dew when I pulled the ol' Flying V.

I could still do it now, but without Close Order Drill it just ain't the same.

[Atrotos]

Ahhh Doctrines...

check this (http://rulesmanufactorum.blogspot.com/search/label/Imperial%20Guard%20Doctrines) out, someone feels the same way you do.

New codex is great but Doctrines never need die.

[Kahoolin]

"Gunner, half right of axis, SABOT, Land raider, on."
"On"
"Lasing now...
Firing...
target stopped"
"By the Emperor look at those hatches burn!"
"Sir, heretics bailing out the left hatch"
"Roger, switching nets... FOO party, Pro Bellum Furioso, Fire mission over."
"Roger, In dedicato Imperator, send fire mission."
"Heretic B*stards, streaming coords now, neutralise for 3 minutes in thirty seconds over."
"Roger, keep your hatches battended down, sending in some of the Emperor's wrath...SHOT! Over..."It's times like this I wish there was a "like" button on the boards.

I run a power-sabre waving, bayonet toting infantry wave, and you sir just made me wish I had a whole hell of a lot of Leman Russes.

[BlacknightIII]

I enjoy the new Guard codex much more than the last one. I created my own character with my army and while it wasn't min/max, with some skill, luck and devious tricks I would more often than not win.

The only thing I dislike about Guard is having to take everything in triplicate to get the job done.

I prefer small armies so I got rid of them for some Eldar and Marines. (Not flavor of the month Marines!)

[Melissia]

So you got rid of them for Grey Knights?

They're about the only army that hasn't been flavor of the month :P