Independent Characters

[Enemy5]

Is it possible when deploying your army to have both Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan to join a Tactical Squad, and have the whole superunit infiltrate (army would be using Shrike's Chapter Tactics)?

[DarkLink]

Well, funny thing is, GW missed a little loophole in the rule that prevents Shrike from infiltrating while attached to a squad that doesn't already have infiltrate. So technically, no, you couldn't.

Otherwise, yeah, you could, as Shrike would give infiltrate to the squad. Your opponent should let you do it, even if GW messed up and it technically doesn't work.

[Enemy5]

The text for "See, but remain unseen" says "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule." So, per that text, if Shrike joins and is deployed with the Tac Squad, wouldn't that rule give infiltrate to the entire squad? Or, is that only if you purchase a command squad?

[Nabterayl]

The technicality that DarkLink is referring to is on page 48 of the main rulebook, which states that "Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them." The argument goes like this: the unit you want Shrike to give Infiltrate to does not have it already, so they must deploy normally. Shrike can then join the squad by being deployed in coherency with them, which gives the unit Infiltrate, but by then it's too late, because the squad has already been deployed, and you cannot deploy it again just because it gained Infiltrate halfway through the deployment phase.

The counter-argument, of course, is that the sentence in the rulebook could be accurately restated as "An independent character may begin the game already with a unit, but if so, he and the unit he begins the game with must be deployed in coherency." The Space Marine codex arguably supports this alternative reading.

But as DarkLink also said, this is really a pretty moot point in the real world. Regardless of which reading is technically correct, your opponent really ought to allow you to join Shrike to a squad during deployment and then infiltrate the lot.

[karandras]

This issue comes up once a month at our area RTTs.

We allow Shrike to infiltrate with his squad, but not any additional attached independent characters. The BRB is explicitly clear that when an IC without the ability to infiltrate joins a unit with infiltrate, the unit loses their ability to infiltrate. We go by that in my area.

[Enemy5]

In regard to that, if Shrike grants the entire squad he's with the infiltrate ability, then wouldn't that overrule the rulebook rule, since when there's two contradictory rules, the codex always overrules the rulebook?

This does seem like it may not have a true answer because the rules are written a bit fuzzy. Is there any email address to contact GW about rules questions like these? (There used to be a [email protected] email, but that no longer works, and customer service seems concerned with only selling you things)

[Nabterayl]

Well, assuming you credit the technicality reading in the first place, no, there's no codex-rulebook overlap. If you credit the reading that creates a problem, Shrike's rule would need to say that he can join a squad in a special way in order to override the provision of the main rulebook that creates the problem.

[Enemy5]

...Shrike's rule would need to say that he can join a squad in a special way in order to override the provision of the main rulebook that creates the problem.

With the text of the ability being "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule." it appears that Shrike, and any models with him would all be granted infiltrate. So, if a squad is, in this case, Shrike, Khan, and a Tac squad, 'See, but remain unseen' would grant infiltrate to each model, allowing the entire squad to infiltrate.

The text on p48 of the rules in this case wouldn't apply, as it is referring to a character without infiltrate, but in my example, all models in Shrike's squad have infiltrate from the ability.

[Nabterayl]

You're thinking of the wrong text on page 48. Here's the question: how do you know which squad is Shrike's?

What you'd expect to find is a rule stating that independent characters can be joined to squads before deployment begins. But you won't find any such sentence in the rulebook. Instead, what you find is this:


Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

Now, that might mean "An independent character can join a unit before deployment, but if so, must be deployed in coherency with the unit it has joined." But it might mean this:

Let's assume I want to join Shrike to Assault Squad A. Assault Squad A, by itself, does not have Infiltrate. If the technicality reading is true, here's what happens:

Me: Okay, I'm joining Shrike to Assault Squad A, and they're going to Infiltrate, so they won't be deployed during normal deployment.
Rules: Sorry, you can't just declare Shrike joined to Assault Squad A. He can only become joined to them, if after deployment he happens to be in coherency with them.
Me: Oh, okay. Well, I'm going to join Shrike to Assault Squad A, and then they'll Infiltrate.
Rules: Sorry, Assault Squad A doesn't have Infiltrate until Shrike has joined them.
Me: Oh, okay. Well, during normal deployment, I'll place Assault Squad A here, in my deployment zone.
Rules: Okay.
Me: Okay, also during normal deployment, I'll place Shrike here, in my deployment zone, within 2" of Assault Squad A. Now they're deployed in coherency, right?
Rules: Yup!
Me: Okay, so that means Shrike has joined Assault Squad A, right?
Rules: Yup!
Me: Okay, so that means Assault Squad A is "Shrike's squad" within the meaning of his special rule, right?
Rules: Yup!
Me: Okay, so now that they're joined, they're going to Infiltrate.
Rules: Sorry, you already deployed them. You can't deploy normally and then Infiltrate, you have to declare that a unit is Infiltrating before normal deployment begins.
Me: But ... but ... but there's no way for Shrike to join the squad before normal deployment begins!
Rules: Nope!
Me: But ... but ... that means there's no way for Shrike to give Infiltrate to his squad before normal deployment begins!
Rules: Sure does!
Me: But ... but ... that means Shrike can only give Infiltrate to a squad after it's too late for them to use it!
Rules: Now you're getting it!
Me: But ... but ... that means Shrike's special rule is useless!
Rules: Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write these rules!
Like we've said, it's a totally lame technicality, and in my opinion any opponent worth his salt should be ashamed to take advantage of it ... but do you understand the technicality now?

[lobster-overlord]

So, Nab, is that really how the rules talk to you? If so, that's really creepy. (This all just goes back to the "when is deployment" argument, and thus if in reserve, a unit is considered "joined" and in coherancy while awaiting "table top deployment" even though they have already been "deployed into reserve"

I do like the way you put it as a conversation with the rule book.

Does BOLS use stickies for any topics? Seems like this one, and several others are constantly appearing, even one or two I've asked in the past.

John m.

[Enemy5]

Ah, thank you, that made it clear. I guess his ability is there just for a command squad, but a CS seems useless since it would ruin the point of his jump pack. That does open up a few more general questions though.

1. Can a Jump Pack commander (or Shrike) be joined with an Assault squad in reserve and arrive as one unit via Deep Strike?

2. Can you field a Tac squad, join a Chaplin to it, and have them all deploy together inside a rhino?

3. What about something more extreme, like 5 Terminators, Chaplin and Librarian, both in Term armor, all inside a Crusader (bought as heavy support)?

I apologize for all the questions, but I'm coming back from a 8 or so year hiatus (Tau were recently released around when I drifted away from the hobby).

[Nabterayl]

Ah, thank you, that made it clear. I guess his ability is there just for a command squad, but a CS seems useless since it would ruin the point of his jump pack. That does open up a few more general questions though.
Not even. Re-check your codex: command squads are not purchased for the captain. They are a totally separate unit; you just need a captain in order to be able to buy them. It's no different than if the codex had said you can buy up to one Whirlwind for every techmarine in your army - one merely unlocks the option to buy the other.


1. Can a Jump Pack commander (or Shrike) be joined with an Assault squad in reserve and arrive as one unit via Deep Strike?
Yes, absolutely. Per page 94, independent characters can be joined to a unit that is being held in Reserve, and so long as the whole unit had the ability to Deep Strike, the whole unit could do so.


2. Can you field a Tac squad, join a Chaplin to it, and have them all deploy together inside a rhino?
So long as the Rhino belongs to the tac squad and not the chaplain, yes. See page 67: dedicated transports can start the game with the unit they were bought for plus any attached independent characters. So the tac squad's Rhino can transport the tac squad and an attached chaplain. A chaplain's Rhino could not transport the Chaplain and an attached tac squad (not that chaplains can buy Rhinos, but just so you understand the principle).


3. What about something more extreme, like 5 Terminators, Chaplin and Librarian, both in Term armor, all inside a Crusader (bought as heavy support)?
Oddly enough, there is no rule stating whether non-dedicated transports can start the game with passengers embarked. Page 67 implies that a non-dedicated transport can start the game with any legal passengers embarked, but the book never comes right out and says it (nor does it ever come right out and say that you can't). So pretty much the universal practice is to take the page 67 implication as the rule, which means yes, five terminators, a terminator chaplain, and a terminator librarian could all start in a non-dedicated Land Raider Crusader.


I apologize for all the questions, but I'm coming back from a 8 or so year hiatus (Tau were recently released around when I drifted away from the hobby).
No problem; happy to talk 40K till the cows come home!

[DarkLink]

You're thinking of the wrong text on page 48. Here's the question: how do you know which squad is Shrike's?

What you'd expect to find is a rule stating that independent characters can be joined to squads before deployment begins. But you won't find any such sentence in the rulebook. Instead, what you find is this:


Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

Now, that might mean "An independent character can join a unit before deployment, but if so, must be deployed in coherency with the unit it has joined." But it might mean this:

Let's assume I want to join Shrike to Assault Squad A. Assault Squad A, by itself, does not have Infiltrate. If the technicality reading is true, here's what happens:

Me: Okay, I'm joining Shrike to Assault Squad A, and they're going to Infiltrate, so they won't be deployed during normal deployment.
Rules: Sorry, you can't just declare Shrike joined to Assault Squad A. He can only become joined to them, if after deployment he happens to be in coherency with them.
Me: Oh, okay. Well, I'm going to join Shrike to Assault Squad A, and then they'll Infiltrate.
Rules: Sorry, Assault Squad A doesn't have Infiltrate until Shrike has joined them.
Me: Oh, okay. Well, during normal deployment, I'll place Assault Squad A here, in my deployment zone.
Rules: Okay.
Me: Okay, also during normal deployment, I'll place Shrike here, in my deployment zone, within 2" of Assault Squad A. Now they're deployed in coherency, right?
Rules: Yup!
Me: Okay, so that means Shrike has joined Assault Squad A, right?
Rules: Yup!
Me: Okay, so that means Assault Squad A is "Shrike's squad" within the meaning of his special rule, right?
Rules: Yup!
Me: Okay, so now that they're joined, they're going to Infiltrate.
Rules: Sorry, you already deployed them. You can't deploy normally and then Infiltrate, you have to declare that a unit is Infiltrating before normal deployment begins.
Me: But ... but ... but there's no way for Shrike to join the squad before normal deployment begins!
Rules: Nope!
Me: But ... but ... that means there's no way for Shrike to give Infiltrate to his squad before normal deployment begins!
Rules: Sure does!
Me: But ... but ... that means Shrike can only give Infiltrate to a squad after it's too late for them to use it!
Rules: Now you're getting it!
Me: But ... but ... that means Shrike's special rule is useless!
Rules: Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write these rules!
Like we've said, it's a totally lame technicality, and in my opinion any opponent worth his salt should be ashamed to take advantage of it ... but do you understand the technicality now?

Heh, this made me chuckle.

[Melissia]

Not even. Re-check your codex: command squads are not purchased for the captain. They are a totally separate unit; you just need a captain in order to be able to buy them. It's no different than if the codex had said you can buy up to one Whirlwind for every techmarine in your army - one merely unlocks the option to buy the other.

Note the difference between this and old-style retinues (which Sisters and Grey Knights get).

[EnglishInquisition]

Just been reading this and are we now having the same conversation as the "combat squad" thread.

All these things seem to have to happen in the "Deployment Phase", for the special rules to make any sense at all.
The background for Shrike is about his ability to turn up with/infiltrate with an assault squad etc. Yet if we talk through the rules as we have been in this thread, then it just can't happen in the game, the game that the designers wanted to be more intuitive and cinematic.

[DarkLink]

Just been reading this and are we now having the same conversation as the "combat squad" thread.

All these things seem to have to happen in the "Deployment Phase", for the special rules to make any sense at all.
The background for Shrike is about his ability to turn up with/infiltrate with an assault squad etc. Yet if we talk through the rules as we have been in this thread, then it just can't happen in the game, the game that the designers wanted to be more intuitive and cinematic.

No, I think this case is quite a bit more clear than the combat squad issue. The BRB is very clear on when an IC can join a squad. And because Shrike can't join a squad, and then afterwards infiltrate, they can't go on together. It's pretty clear in this case that technically, Shrike CANNOT be attached to a squad and infiltrate with it, unless it already has infiltrate. Despite Shrike's rule. Stupid, yes. Debatable, not really.

[lobster-overlord]

I was reading in the Necron FAQ trying to go over a play that we'd done in the last game I played against a buddy of mine (not that it matters, but he had a res orb and was dragging dead necron models with the unit as it fell back, and I was like hUH?!) But I came across this...

Q. Does a Lord who teleports a unit using the
veil of darkness join that unit?
A. Yes. When they deep strike, the Lord has
already joined the unit.

So this kinda addresses this issue of whether or not an IC is a part of the unit. I read this as that the Lord joined the unit prior to hitting the table, while in reserve waiting to be deep struck. Would anyone else see this as analagous and think that yes, it was meant for Shrike to be able to infiltrate with a unit of non-infiltrating guys?

I've never dealt directly with shirke in a game, just with the rules debates here.

John M>

[DarkLink]

I was reading in the Necron FAQ trying to go over a play that we'd done in the last game I played against a buddy of mine (not that it matters, but he had a res orb and was dragging dead necron models with the unit as it fell back, and I was like hUH?!) But I came across this...

Q. Does a Lord who teleports a unit using the
veil of darkness join that unit?
A. Yes. When they deep strike, the Lord has
already joined the unit.

So this kinda addresses this issue of whether or not an IC is a part of the unit. I read this as that the Lord joined the unit prior to hitting the table, while in reserve waiting to be deep struck. Would anyone else see this as analagous and think that yes, it was meant for Shrike to be able to infiltrate with a unit of non-infiltrating guys?

I've never dealt directly with shirke in a game, just with the rules debates here.

John M>

Unfortunately, it still doesn't solve the problem. We already know that you can attach an IC to a squad when you put them in reserves. The problem is, Shrike and his squad never go into reserves. They are never deployed. Shrike never gets an opportunity to give "his squad" Infiltrate until it is too late to use the rule.

[Nabterayl]

No, I think this case is quite a bit more clear than the combat squad issue. The BRB is very clear on when an IC can join a squad. And because Shrike can't join a squad, and then afterwards infiltrate, they can't go on together. It's pretty clear in this case that technically, Shrike CANNOT be attached to a squad and infiltrate with it, unless it already has infiltrate. Despite Shrike's rule. Stupid, yes. Debatable, not really.

For the record, I actually come down on the side of the second interpretation of page 48, and I think Shrike's rule is good evidence that this is the correct interpretation. But I do think it's important to thoroughly understand the other side.

[Tynskel]

Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them. p48.

Shrike and the Unit are placed at the same time. There is nothing in the game that states that I place unit A, now I place unit B, now I reserve unit C. All of this stuff just happens in Section 4: Deployment Phase. This would imply that I would grab Unit A and Shrike at the same time and place them as per the infiltrate rules, at the same time.


But what do I know?