Transfixing gaze/Death mask of sanguinus vs. Tyranids

[Image]

Came up today in a game that both of the abilities from the title have little effect on Tyranids. Seems like Hive Tyrants aren't classified as Independent Characters, so is there any way to target the Tyranid HQs with the negative characteristic modifiers or transfixing gaze?

[Lerra]

I've always played it that Transfixing Gaze can target any single model in close combat, IC or not. I've seen it used to deny attacks specifically to power weapons within a squad. I can't find a clear rule to cite for this, though. Its an interesting question.

The Imp Guard codex also has nearly zero ICs.

[synack]

Transfixing gaze specifically states it only works vs an IC, so you, wouldn't be able to target a Tyrant with the power, Tyranid Primes or the Parasite of Mortex, you can however.

As for the Death Masks, I see no reason why this wouldn't work against a non-IC unit, no where in the text does it state that it only works against an IC unit.

[DarkLink]

Gaze is pretty clear. If there is no Independent Character rule in the enemy model's profile, the enemy model is completely immune. Gaze only affects ICs, nothing else.

[Image]

Transfixing gaze specifically states it only works vs an IC, so you, wouldn't be able to target a Tyrant with the power, Tyranid Primes or the Parasite of Mortex, you can however.

As for the Death Masks, I see no reason why this wouldn't work against a non-IC unit, no where in the text does it state that it only works against an IC unit.

Death Mask of Sanguinius: "Before forces are deployed, choose one enemy independent character: that model has...." (page 53, BA codex).

So, I guess this is all the more reason to not bring Mephiston against Tyranids and just makes Dante that much less effective against them.

[sober_robot]

wouldn't fearless negate the effects of the gaze anyway? on that note does fearless affect bone sword instant deaths and also the doom's power?

[Image]

Not sure about the Doom's effect, but in my gaming group, a common misconception is that fearless means you pass all leadership tests, which just isn't the case. Fearless only affects Morale and Pinning tests; leadership tests which don't specify morale or pinning will not be hindered by Fearless, unless otherwise stated.

[DarkLink]

In an odd case, Dante's mask doesn't work on certain Grey Knight heroes. When a Grey Knight hero takes a retinue, they lose the IC rule, making them immune. And once the game starts, Dante can no longer use his mask's rule, so even if you kill the retinue and the GK Hero regains the IC rule, he won't get the negative modifiers.


wouldn't fearless negate the effects of the gaze anyway? on that note does fearless affect bone sword instant deaths and also the doom's power?

No, unfortunately. I think fearless should be "automatically pass all leadership tests except psychic tests", but it's currently only morale tests.

[Nabterayl]

No, unfortunately. I think fearless should be "automatically pass all leadership tests except psychic tests", but it's currently only morale tests.
Correction: it's Morale and Pinning tests.

[Tynskel]

please list page numbers... for all I know, you could be making all this stuff up...

Fearless is p. 75
IC is p. 47-49
Death Mask is p. 50 C:BA
Death Mask of Sanguinius is p. 53 C:BA
Transfixing Gaze is p. 47 C:BA
Hive Tyrants are on p. 34, 56 C: Tyranids
Parasite is p. 60 C: Tyranids
Grey Knight Hero p.23 C: Daemon Hunters
Doom p. 58 C: Tyranids
Bonesword p. 83 C: Tyranids
Independent Characters in the IMP Guard: p. 32, 33, 35, 63 C: Imperial Guard

If people would cite the pages, there would be a lot less of the disagreements (one would hope) on these rules.

[BuFFo]

Came up today in a game that both of the abilities from the title have little effect on Tyranids. Seems like Hive Tyrants aren't classified as Independent Characters, so is there any way to target the Tyranid HQs with the negative characteristic modifiers or transfixing gaze?

Hive Tyrant hasn't been classified as an IC for at least a decade.

I don't remember about 2nd edition.

[DarkLink]

please list page numbers... for all I know, you could be making all this stuff up...


If people would cite the pages, there would be a lot less of the disagreements (one would hope) on these rules.

Frankly, I don't feel like digging through a half dozen pdfs and rulebooks every single time an argument comes up when I remember the rule perfectly well, such as in the case of fearless or any Grey Knight special rules. You can go through that work every single time if you want. I'll do it only when I feel like it.

And to be honest, I think more rules disagreements come from not having a particularly good working knowledge of some of the rules in the first place, though sometimes a case comes up where the exact wording of a rule can change everything, and one may not remember the exact wording off the top of their head.

[Tynskel]

Frankly, I don't feel like digging through a half dozen pdfs and rulebooks every single time an argument comes up when I remember the rule perfectly well, such as in the case of fearless or any Grey Knight special rules. You can go through that work every single time if you want. I'll do it only when I feel like it.

And to be honest, I think more rules disagreements come from not having a particularly good working knowledge of some of the rules in the first place, though sometimes a case comes up where the exact wording of a rule can change everything, and one may not remember the exact wording off the top of their head.

So, what you are saying is that don't cite so we can have rules disagreements?

Most of the rules disagreements I have read on these forums are due to people misquoting rules, or not citing something, leaving something out, ect.

If everyone got into the habit of citing everything, these disagreements would not be popping up, unless there was something that was completely vague.

For example, this thread we are on now. The question is from someone misreading a rule.