Eldar Question

[Mr. Smith]

I don't own the army or anything but it's on my wish lists of armies that I want. Now I was wondering could you make a scary Eldar army list that doesn't rely on magic(physic powers) to win?

[eagleboy7259]

The most competitive Eldar builds all use either Eldrad / Farseers / Jetlock Council. You certainly can build lists around Mechdar without them that will be effective, but any list that uses a decent amount of infantry, Elf-zilla, or anything will be that much less dangerous

[DarkLink]

Foot eldar can work, too. I know the guy who wrote the article for that, and I can fully vouch that he isn't lying.


Regardless, the psynergy granted by psychic powers does help the eldar a lot. However, you could just use Yuriel and/or the Avatar for your HQs, and not any farseers. Autarchs can even be pretty good.

[Mr. Smith]

The most competitive Eldar builds all use either Eldrad / Farseers / Jetlock Council. You certainly can build lists around Mechdar without them that will be effective, but any list that uses a decent amount of infantry, Elf-zilla, or anything will be that much less dangerous

I know thats the case right now but with the more armies and more armies developing anti-pysker hardware. What would you do then, I would imagine switching to something that doesn't rely on that center piece of the codex.

[murrburger]

I think you always need at least one Farseer, if even for psychic defense. However, you can't really rely on them to deathstar anymore. With psychic hoods, rune weapons, and, worst of all, null zone, the Jetcouncil/Seer Council can get stroked pretty hard.

[Mr. Smith]

Alright, so where should those points go to then?

[murrburger]

I've always kind of liked Yriel, although he is quite fragile. The Eldar codex has so many choices, so it's hard to say. What's your list so far, if you don't mind posting it?

Oh, one more thing. How competitive do you want? It's tough to do with Eldar, unless you want a fairly boring, template army. (Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, lots of mech, Fire Prisms)

I' not saying it's impossible to have a 'playable' army if you take other things (Foot Eldar is something I'm actually looking into with great interest), though. You just might have to work a little harder.

[eagleboy7259]

I know thats the case right now but with the more armies and more armies developing anti-pysker hardware. What would you do then, I would imagine switching to something that doesn't rely on that center piece of the codex.

Psychic Defense isn't full-proof, not to mention you need your own psychic defense these days with everyone and their brother taking a psyker.

Yriel is quite awesome as far as Eldar HQ's go, his spear lets you do something that no eldar unit can, wound high toughness things, piece armor, and strike at I all at the same time. The only problem is he's as fragile as any other eldar

[DarkLink]

I know thats the case right now but with the more armies and more armies developing anti-pysker hardware. What would you do then, I would imagine switching to something that doesn't rely on that center piece of the codex.

Just to put it into perspective, a psychic hood has a 42% chance of blocking a psychic power. A standard Ld 10 psychic test has an 8.3% chance of failure. Not sure what the odds with runes of witnessing are off the top of my head.

One big advantage of eldar, though, is runes of warding. It's the best psychic defense in the entire game, I believe. Shadow of the warp is second, and rune weapons of the Space Wolves is third.

[addamsfamily36]

I don't own the army or anything but it's on my wish lists of armies that I want. Now I was wondering could you make a scary Eldar army list that doesn't rely on magic(physic powers) to win?

Definitely. Although Other armies have been updated since their last codex, the Eldar still pack a punch. i believe there are rougly 2-3 ways in which you can field a strong, and non farseer/psychic army.

1: The avatar option: HQ choice - Avatar relatively decent HQ stat wise, and a bargain for the points cost!! But his main purpose in this option is his ability to make all eldar within 12 inches fearless. Take LOTS !! of infantry as cheap as you can make them, 10 man guardian squads but don't bother with expensive lance's or star cannons go with scatter lasers or shuriken cannons on your weapons teams. 10 man dire avenger units with blade storm and defend ( defend is just beautiful when your in terrain holding an objective. you bladestorm it in your turn, then when it charges you in your opponents defend is just loverly. for the rest of your army, a mixture of scouting war walkers, and mass out on fire power, dark reapers are so underestimated!! they spell marine DEATH!!!!

2: the silent host or the wraitguard army (buy it off ebay if you can!) yeh so basically lots of wraith lords and wraith guard. this army will need warlocks and a farseer for wraith sight etc, but thats not depending on powers.

3: let your imagination run wild lol

Both options would benefit from just one farseer, but its important to remember not to solely rely on one aspect of your army. The elite choice's in the eldar codex are brilliant-striking scorpions have power armour(effectively) and could easily make mince meat of a marine assault unit if it gets the charge. Fire dragons, well lets just say tanks and units should run if these guys are in range (put the in a falcon or wave serpent and your laughing) as they disembark and uload a wall of melta goodness! :). Banshees alot of people dislike them , but their masks and counter attack rules make for a not to take them lightly unit.

hope this helps

[Mr. Pants]

I don't own the army or anything but it's on my wish lists of armies that I want. Now I was wondering could you make a scary Eldar army list that doesn't rely on magic(physic powers) to win?

I wanted to add another option to the few presented by addamsfamily36.

Try using dual Autarchs in a mech Eldar list. The ability to keep your entire army in reserve and bring the majority of it on at the same time plays to the mech Eldar speed advantage. It also allows you to concentrate your firepower on any isolated portions of your opponents army.

[eagleboy7259]

Definitely. Although Other armies have been updated since their last codex, the Eldar still pack a punch. i believe there are rougly 2-3 ways in which you can field a strong, and non farseer/psychic army.

1: The avatar option: HQ choice - Avatar relatively decent HQ stat wise, and a bargain for the points cost!! But his main purpose in this option is his ability to make all eldar within 12 inches fearless. Take LOTS !! 2: the silent host or the wraitguard army (buy it off ebay if you can!) yeh so basically lots of wraith lords and wraith guard. this army will need warlocks and a farseer for wraith sight etc, but thats not depending on powers.

Yeahh but don't expect him to be hanging around long without a farseer giving him re-rolls on that armor save. T6 and 4++ doesn't really spell durable to me, especially with him being the apex of your army he'll draw tons of attention

[addamsfamily36]

Yeahh but don't expect him to be hanging around long without a farseer giving him re-rolls on that armor save. T6 and 4++ doesn't really spell durable to me, especially with him being the apex of your army he'll draw tons of attention

Yeh it's a mega downside, but i would always suggest just taking that one farseer for that reason. or to give doom or guide on certain thigns.

[Mobious]

Best I have seen without Psychic Powers is this:

Autarch @ 80
(Fusion Gun)

Fire Dragons @ 205
(Wave Serpent; TL Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon)
Fire Dragons @ 205
(Wave Serpent; TL Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon)
Fire Dragons @ 205
(Wave Serpent; TL Scatter Laser; Shuriken Cannon)

Vyper Squadron @ 180
(3xShuriken Cannon; 3xShuriken Cannon)
Vyper Squadron @ 180
(3xShuriken Cannon; 3xShuriken Cannon)
Vyper Squadron @ 180
(3xShuriken Cannon; 3xShuriken Cannon)

Dire Avengers @ 175
(Falcon; Holo-Field; Pulse Laser; Shuriken Cannon; Scatter laser)
Dire Avengers @ 175
(Falcon; Holo-Field; Pulse Laser; Shuriken Cannon; Scatter laser)
Dire Avengers @ 175
(Falcon; Holo-Field; Pulse Laser; Shuriken Cannon; Scatter laser)

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Not mine, and not trying to take credit. I first saw it when Voldemort posted it over on Y.T.T.H. My friend recently assembled it and it is a pita to play against. It can easily Alpha Strike you away, or sit in reserves come in when it wants and flank your force to death. I think the total is 84 S:6 shots, and then 16 fast Meltas supported by fast and durable Eldar vehicles. Pretty dangerous in my eyes, and it should be in all eyes. Lol

Hope you like it, and I hope I helped.

[mercer]

I've been collecting Eldar since June last year but I haven't had much games with them as they're not my main army. At first I tried to do a foot list and took Wraithlords and a Avatar.

The Avatar is pretty slow and will get gunned down before makes combat, it doesn't have fleet so only can run and that's it. Bonus is that it isn't the biggest monstrous creature and melta weapons along with flamers cannot hurt; but that doesn't stop lascannons!

Wraithlords are the suck. They're too big to hide properly and the weapons are expensive something like 40 points extra to make twin linked. Sure they're tough but when a power fist or S9 weapons coems along that 3+ armour save isn't going to stand up well.

I went for a mech army instead. I run all wave serpents because the energy field reducing S8+ weapons down to S8 is highly annoying and no 2D6 for melta either :) They're fast, get a cover save and have decent weapon load outs though can be pricey. Only annoying thing is they have no hatches to shoot out of and assault units need to get out before assaulting it would be nice if they had a assault ramp or something.

I tried a Autarch as well but they seemed a bit wishy-washy. I've found a Farseer to be the best because the choice of powers taken can benefit the army as a whole or just a unit instead of just being a c.c unit for example or a big slow moving target like the Avatar.

This is my 2k list:

Eldar "The Lost" - 2,000 points

HQ

Farseer doom, guide &*spirit stones

Elites

10 x Striking Scorpions w/ Wave Serpent -* exarch w/ scorpion claw -*serpent w/ twin-linked brightlance & shuriken cannon
5 x Fire Dragons w/ Wave Serpent serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannon & shuriken cannon
5 x Fire Dragons w/ Wave Serpent serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannon & shuriken cannon

Troops

10 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent serpent w/ brightlance & shuriken cannon
10 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent serpent w/ brightlance & shuriken cannon
10 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent serpent w/ brightlance & shuriken cannon
6 x Guardian jetbikes 2 x shuriken cannon

Heavy Support

Fire Prism
Fire Prism

[theHman]

Personally, I've found that running a wraithlord with sword and bright lance to be quite effective b/c it allows you to walk towards your enemy with a good chance of popping a tank or two. And then he becomes a beast in CC with the rerolls to hit and killing things on a 2+.

My wraithlords never forget to sharpen their swords before combat! =)

Or, if you want to save some pts, drop the bright lance, sharpen your sword and CHARGE!
A wraithlord with sword is a pidly 100pts and I don't know of too many opponents who will stand idly by as your wraithlord charges towards them intent on crushing everything in its path.

Remember: Wraithlords are T8 so ignore everything S4 and under. Even then S5 & S6 wpns need 6's to wound, S7 (Plasma) needs a 5+ to wound. Even Krak missiles need a 4+ to wound you and a Lascannon needs a 3+.

Wraithlords = awesome (for now)!

I say, activate your wraithlords now before they get nerfed and drop to T6 when their new dex arrives late next year (you read it here first!)

Add in a full unit of 3 war walkers with double scatter lasers, and you'll make any foot units on the table cringe in fear of being targeted and force your opponent to make very tough decisions as to which unit to shoot at. Most decide the Wraithlord is the biggest threat to their safety (b/c I put them up in their face and make them the biggest, closest and scariest threat).

Hope that helps.

Oh, and to answer your Q about running a non-farseer Eldar army, it's very easy and feasible to do. Many people have already shown you several killer lists to try out on your own.

[Mr. Smith]

I know, I've been given a lot to think about.

[Judge]

I don't think you'll have to worry about Wraithlord Toughness going down anytime soon - Wraithguard Toughness of 6 hasn't proven overpowering. The Toughness 8 isn't as potent as it used to be after the armour buff anyway.

I've been playing since 2nd edition, and Eldar were my first (and remain my largest) army, to include a large Harlequin contingent. They've got some problems. Eldar troop choices are terrible in 5th (4th) edition. Codex: Craftworld Eldar completely fixed (overfixed) the problem, but that's gone now.

The biggest immediate problem you'll face is durability. Eldar units are costly, but most have no real staying power. Worse, they're a largely medium-ranged army, so they can't sit back and outrange from defensive positions as per Tau or IG. They're not truly assault, as their vehicles aren't open topped, their low-end melee units aren't competitive against 5th edition assault units, and their top-end melee units can altogether be beaten by a single enemy character. Eldar tanks are fast and relatively durable for cost (if they're not shot in Round 1), but haven't got firepower to match. Honestly, I'd recommend shelving your Eldar ambitions until you see a 5th edition codex for them - what they have now is not competitve. If you do decide to collect anyway, don't be fooled - over half of the Eldar army list entries are newbie traps - don't buy any of these.

On the bright side, Eldar represent an old army, and if you're willing to settle for some half-painted Out Of Print models, you can get whole armies of them on the cheap from Ebay or trading sites.

5th edition can largely be characterized by: more durable armour (vehicles), instant kill weapons to include meaner psychic powers, and ever-increasing special character options (mostly, but not entirely HQ options - others come across as glorified Exarchs). One horribly broken Blood Angel character called Mephiston completely overwhelms the Eldar's strongest melee options, so plan to shoot him - he's too fast to avoid. You'll also need to plan your army largely around defeating Marines (T4, 3+ saves or, increasingly, their tanks), as Marine armies make up half of 40k, and account for over half of the current 5th edition codexes.

Most important of all, you may not want a psychic army, but a farseer is all but mandatory for Runes of Warding. Eldar are the "most psychic race," but their army's psychic powers are pitiful. You need Runes of Warding to stop enemy psychic powers.

Autarch - Expensive, not durable, not enough melee punch to make worth embedding in a squad.

Avatar - Vulnerable to instant kill weapons (chaos/marine psychers, Tyranid leaders/Warriors). Quite cost effective otherwise. Good lure to draw in higher cost enemy HQs, which you'll shoot when the Avatar dies. Completely useless against Mephiston (Blood Angel character).

Dark Reaper - Traditional marine killers, but effective against most infantry types. Exarch can harm vehicles, but they're pretty much useless against armour and 2+ saves. Can pay for themselves in 2 rounds against high cost assault units like Death Company. Don't field against IG or Orks unless you have elevation to target heavy weapon squads, and then pick out the expensive targets. Don't field against Mechanized armies. Vulnerable to the same things any Heavy Weapons squad is.

Death Jester - Typically overexpensive tissue paper unit. Not likely to do enough damage to pay for himself, and not a melee specialist (most Harlequins are).

Dire Avenger - More expensive Guardians. Not cost effective. Field two squads of 5 for your mandatory troop requirement, as they're the cheapest troop squads available.

Eldrad Ulthran - Expensive. Has many abilities, but Eldar have problems with durability. Could possibly field in Wraithguard or Striking Scorpion squads, but he doesn't hit hard in melee (1 attack standard is pathetic), and you can get his other abilities from other Farseers for lower cost. Multiple Mind Wars are his only (but a real) way to pay for himself.

Farseer - Someone in your army should have Runes of Warding to limit enemy psychers. Mind War can have tolerable results against enemy characters (normally ~1/3 chance of 1 or 2 wounds).

Fire Dragons - Many people have listed transport / melta combinations. Eldar have purely specialized melta Tank Hunter squads (even their exarch, putting them ahead of other armies) and fast skimmer transports (potential 24" movement range at Full Out). Eldar skimmers cannot be assaulted from as Dark Eldar skimmers can, but they can disembark shooting troops, making them the best at melta drops. A full squad of 10 in a Wave Serpent will almost certainly destroy any vehicle they're sent after in 1 round, presuming you get them within 6" to fire. Fewer than 7 in the squad and the probability diminishes (5 in a Falcon has around a 74% chance to kill any vehicle in 1 round). Melta, so go after the most expensive enemy vehicles and drive straight up to them (hulls almost touching, as troops disembark from the rear, but can fire under).

Guardian - Terrible basic infantry. Expensive, yet not durable, poor in melee, and with perhaps the worst standard ranged weapon in the game. Support weapon addons cost more than equivalents do for other armies.

Guardian Jetbike - Much less expensive than in 3rd edition. Terrible cost efficiency. Assault marines cost less in 5th edition, move similarly, and have better WS, BS, Strength, Leadership, guns and options. Complete waste (Sam'Hein, still no love).

Harlequin - Typically overexpensive tissue paper unit. T3 5+ invulnerable save does not survive a single shooting round (enemy might not get more than one shooting round, but it's enough).

Howling Banshee - A power weapon assault unit with few attacks that's too weak to cause wounds and too flimsy to withstand attacks. Cannot assault after disembarking from a moving transport. Decent Exarch to embed, but not enough to save the squad's cost performance.

Phoenix Lords - Case by case basis. Need to be embedded to pay for themselves, with performance similar to squads. Traditionally, Maugen Ra (Dark Reaper), Fuegan (Fire Dragon), and Khandris (Striking Scorpion) are cost effective when properly used.

Ranger - Potentially powerful sniper attacks with improved cover saves. Cost too much. Can potentially pay for themselves in long games by shooting exposed Terminators, problem being that Terminators don't walk into snipers - they Deep Strike on them. Tyranid Lictors exist to eat these guys.

Shadowseer - If you're mad enough to take Harlequins, this fellow's all but mandatory to limit enemy shooting. Typically tissue.

Shining Spear - Can do damage on the first round of assault. Not cost effective, even then. Far too vulnerable to shooting for cost.

Striking Scorpion - Less powerful than in 3rd edition, still the most cost effective regular Eldar wound sink to bury Independent Characters in. Can survive a round of typical shooting after disembarking to assault. (If you send enough, if there's not too much shooting). For no good reason whatsoever lost access to Haywire Grenades, so useless against armour.

Swooping Hawk - Can damage Imperial Guard and possibly Ork or Dark Eldar heavy weapon squads. Not cost effective. Little to no effect on Marine troops.

Troupe Master - Typical Harlequin tissue paper.

Warlock - Used to be less expensive in 3rd, but now forced to buy an expensive, useless witchblade (wounds on a 2+, but does nothing to armor). You'll still want one along if you field a Wraithguard squad unless it's got a Farseer already. Can offer 5+ cover saves, or can buy a decent template attack.

Warp Spider - Decent damage to high toughness, low save troops like Orks or some Tyranids. Decent durability for Eldar. Not cost effective.

Wraithguard - Good durability (only 3 Eldar wound units have this). Powerful shooting attack against heavy infantry and vehicles. Good choice for Wave Serpent transport to front lines (Fire Dragons are better, but often don't survive the enemy shooting phase) with embedded Independent Characters (possibly the best choice for Yriel). Expensive. Poor melee, but durable against regular melee specialists. Poor against embedded characters.

Wraithlord - Devastating against armour in melee. Probably won't survive to reach them. More vulnerable to heavy weapons than armour (won't suffer debilitating effects like Shaken, Weapon Destroyed, but dies faster). Weak against embedded special characters (can't target these until squad dies), and some independent characters. Completely useless against Mephiston.

Yriel - Great melee abilities. Horrible durability. Can imbed in a Wraithguard / Striking Scorpion squad and transport to the front.

War Walker - Weak, but cheap. Squadrons are decent for Shuriken Cannons if you prefer Wave Serpents over Falcons for transports. Not durable enough to justify mounting expensive weaponry. Generally a poor choice, except for the "allocation of glancing and penetrating hits to squadron before rolling on damage table" question - potentially, could you drop 10 penetrating hits all on one model? At the very least, you could drop 10 Crew Stunned (Shaken) on the same model.

Wave Serpent - Cheaper than Falcons with less firepower. Front shield makes it more durable. Tank, so can still Tank Shock after dropping troops off (effective against Tau, IG, Orks). Skimming, fast tanks moving Full Out can Tank Shock across an entire enemy rear line causing spontaneous mass withdrawal.

Falcon - More expensive than Wave Serpents, but shootier. Transport less, and a little less durable. Shooting less important than transporting and Tank Shock.

Fire Prism - Not Ordnance (should be). Decent for shooting massed Orks or Tau on Dispersed, but little else.

Vyper - Similar to War Walker squadrons, but trade cheap firepower for speed and skimmer durability (questionable).


A Typical 1,500 Point Eldar Army I Might Field

155 - Prince Yriel (joined to Wraithguard).
150 - Farseer, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Fortune, Mind War (joined to Wraithguard).
275 - 5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent w. twin-linked Shuriken Cannons
212 - 7 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent w. twin-linked Shuriken Cannons
212 - 7 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent w. twin-linked Shuriken Cannons
60 - 5 Dire Avengers
60 - 5 Dire Avengers
175 - 5 Dark Reapers
100 - Wraithlord w. Wraithsword, 2 Flamers
100 - Wraithlord w. Wraithsword, 2 Flamers

If the enemy gets Round 1, hope they waste shots killing Wraithlords. If you get Round 1, Wave Serpent squads have good odds of reaping 500 points in tanks / big bugs, depending on enemy composition. Start with Fortune on your HQ unit. Tanks move Flat Out, drop squads for close-range melta / Wraithcannons. Mind War if you can (some Tyranids are remarkably vulnerable to this). Reapers fire into infantry-based Heavy Weapons. Wraithlords move up on either flank. Avengers move for objectives (if any), or go flanking Wraithlords for moral support. Fire Dragons die on enemy round, Wraithguard get shot/assaulted by something nasty (some live - Fortune), Yriel kills some, one or two tanks out of action. Remaining tanks Tank Shock on Turn 2 - aim to cross as many enemy squads as possible aiming for a corner/cover for tank rear, and try to angle it to have a straight shot across their lines in the event your tanks survive another round. If Mephiston, dead Wraithlord.

The objective is to get the enemy to focus on something other than your tanks, while still having something credible on the ground for mopup. Alternatively, you could take an Avatar instead of Yriel, or drop Wraithlords and give Dire Avengers Wave Serpents.