Perhaps obvious question, or already covered...

[Hendrik Booraem VI]

The Ghostkeel has the stealth drones which double the benefits of stealth and shrouded USRs, so it gets a 2+ cover save in the open as long as one stealth drone is still alive. However, it only gets this benefit against enemies more than 12" away. So a barrage template, even if it does NOT have the Ignores Cover USR, would obviate that rule and reduce the Ghostkeel to using either a 4+ cover save, or its innate 3+ armor save, right?

I ask because I got my 3rd son a Ghostkeel for his birthday and we're putting it together while talking about the weapons and rules and how best he can fit it into his army. He knows he needs to keep it at maximum range from the enemy, ANY enemy, and jump-jet away after shooting. But you can't jump jet away from barrage weapons!

[Captain Bubonicus]

The way I read the rule, the cover save bonus is doubled against "attacks made at a range of greater than 12"." As long as the model firing the barrage is over 12" away from the Ghostkeel, you'd get the bonus effects of the stealth drones.

[SnakeChisler]

With indirect fire cover is calculated from the hole in the template

P160 BRB "to determine whether a unit is allowed a cover save always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker"

So yes you are correct it doesn't get double if it lands on its head

From a tactics point of view I'd go for the drones with barrage to clip it down & make it easier to kill with ranged fire, also any sort of presicion fire I'd allocate to them as they don't get double.

[Ben_S]

With indirect fire cover is calculated from the hole in the template

P160 BRB "to determine whether a unit is allowed a cover save always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker"

So yes you are correct it doesn't get double if it lands on its head

I don't see how the last sentence follows from the one that precedes it. The bit you quoted says that the shot is assumed to come from the centre of the blast marker when determining WHETHER the unit gets a cover save. In this case, that makes no difference: the unit still gets a cover save. Now the question is what cover save it gets (whether it gets the bonus). Here, I don't know exactly what the Ghostkeel rules say, but from what the OP says it sounds to me like you'd get the bonus so long as the firing unit is more than 12" away.

[SnakeChisler]

I don't see how the last sentence follows from the one that precedes it. The bit you quoted says that the shot is assumed to come from the centre of the blast marker when determining WHETHER the unit gets a cover save. In this case, that makes no difference: the unit still gets a cover save. Now the question is what cover save it gets (whether it gets the bonus). Here, I don't know exactly what the Ghostkeel rules say, but from what the OP says it sounds to me like you'd get the bonus so long as the firing unit is more than 12" away.

Is the The Ghost Keel taking a cover save from a Barrage weapon
If Yes
Calculate the cover save allowed from the blast drop point as per page 160 in the BRB

Ghost keel Rule says
The Cover save from Stealth & Shrouded is doubled for this model against attacks made at range of greater than 12" (max 2+).

It Doesn't invalidate Barrage in any way as the attack comes from the center of the blast which is why you take saves/casualties from that point.

For completeness the exact wording is
"To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model"

[Ben_S]

Again, the sentence you quote does not say that you measure range from the centre of the blast marker. You're taking one part of the sentence ("assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker") out of context. It only says that you do this to determine WHETHER the target gets a cover save (and for wound allocation, though that's not relevant here). The point of that is that the target being on the other side of a wall from the firing unit doesn't matter, if they're hit by a shell that explodes behind them. That's not the case here.

[Charistoph]

Again, the sentence you quote does not say that you measure range from the centre of the blast marker. You're taking one part of the sentence ("assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker") out of context. It only says that you do this to determine WHETHER the target gets a cover save (and for wound allocation, though that's not relevant here). The point of that is that the target being on the other side of a wall from the firing unit doesn't matter, if they're hit by a shell that explodes behind them. That's not the case here.

And yet, it IS for determining the Cover Save, isn't it? We're trying to determine if Stealth/Shrouded is being doubled. Same is if we're looking at the Save from intervening terrain or not.

[Ben_S]

The sentence says "To determine WHETHER a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is ALLOWED a cover save..."

So, apply this rule, and the answer is yes: it has Shrouded and Stealth, therefore granting a cover save.

It does NOT say that you measure from the centre of the blast marker when determining the range of the attack or what the cover save is.

So, having determined that you get your cover save, if the enemy firing is over 12" away, then you get your cover save doubled.

[SnakeChisler]

The sentence says "To determine WHETHER a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is ALLOWED a cover save..."

So, apply this rule, and the answer is yes: it has Shrouded and Stealth, therefore granting a cover save.

It does NOT say that you measure from the centre of the blast marker when determining the range of the attack or what the cover save is.

So, having determined that you get your cover save, if the enemy firing is over 12" away, then you get your cover save doubled.

I think you'll find it does it explicitly tells you where the attack is coming from and the Ghost Keel rule says attacks > 12.

So your plain out wrong as firing from has nothing to do with any of this

[Ben_S]

I think you'll find it does it explicitly tells you where the attack is coming from

You've quoted the whole sentence above, so I don't see why you persist in reading only part of it out of context. The first clause is important.

It says that you assume the attack is coming from the centre of the blast template FOR TWO VERY SPECIFIC PURPOSES. Not for all purposes whatsoever.

Compare the following two sentences:

1) Leave the building by the nearest exit.

2) In the event of a fire alarm, leave the building by the nearest exit.

The first sentence is telling you to leave the building, but the second isn't unless an alarm is raised. You can't simply focus on the latter part of it and ignore the former specification of context.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Ugh, this is one of those rule conundrums where both readings seem reasonable.

[Path Walker]

The attack is coming from the model with the barrage weapon, so you use that to check for the "over 12"" rule. The Barrage rule just means if they're on the other side of a wall from the firing unit, but the blast marker lands behind them, they don't get the cover save. Its not where the attack originates from.

With how the Ghostkeel works, fluffwise, your barrage weapon can't get a decent fix on the location of the unit as it deploys electronic counter measures, confusing targetters and range finders and the like, so even hits you think are on target are actually off.

[SnakeChisler]

For rules purposes the attack comes from the barrage blast hole which is why you allocate casualties from that point

A barrage landing in front of a wall gives the model behind it a save landing behind it does not

Making stuff up and trying to tie fire with attack doesn't alter how barrage works, it says calculate cover from the blast hole so that's what you do.

[Path Walker]

For rules purposes the attack comes from the barrage blast hole which is why you allocate casualties from that point

A barrage landing in front of a wall gives the model behind it a save landing behind it does not

Making stuff up and trying to tie fire with attack doesn't alter how barrage works, it says calculate cover from the blast hole so that's what you do.

You calculate if a model getscover, not the origin of the attack. The attack still originates from the unit that fired it, only cover is checked from the centre of the Blast. You've made up that part of the rule.

For the Ghostkeel, you are taking a cover save, you check if the attack orginated more than 12" away, so you check the distance to the attacker, not the centre of the blast marker. You're not checking to see if the model gets a cover save from an attack, you're checking how far away the attacker is, so you don't use the centre of the marker at all. If this is the case, it gets the bonus to its cover saves. The Barrage just means that when seeing is a unit has cover saves, use the centre of the marker.

It doesn't state anywhere that the attack originates from that point, only that you use that for working out if a unit gets a cover save.

The attack still originates from the attacker but you check if the model is in cover using that centre point.