White Dwarf - Should GW just retire it?

[Levitas]

I know we have covered WD before, but hoping to hit new ground outside of bashing it.

I picked up the Blood Angel adorned one as I was stuck waiting for my car to be repaired, and a GW was close by. Cringing at the price I paid it anyways, and knew exactly where my expectations were.

Quick blow by blow:

• Blood Angels release! yay for them, I dont play them though. But do go on..
• Oh more Blood Angels...skims semi interested over the authors explanations, begin to sigh a lot.
• Some Lord of the Rings stuff..skims...
• Some fantasy stuff...skims...
• Battle report featuring...Blood Angels..oh look they win. yay for them. Looks at army list selection and sighs some more.
• Painting tips..on painting blood angels! great.
• Modleing tips on..Blood Angels!..yawns..
• Contents of Death Company box..yadda yadda
• Some more Lord of the Rings stuff..
• More Blood Angel ads..
• Ends...checks cover price again..sighs. Knows that 98% of last hours consumption will be FREE on GWs site. Crys.

Ok, so its clearly on life support. Working in the design/print/marketing world I fully understand the challenges of the printed media. Web is huge and printed material has to work hard to be different (and yes, I can take the internet into the 'throne room' via iphone). So GW either has to drastically change White Dwarf, or put it out of its misery before it destroys any love we once had for it.

Save WD starts now...

• Stop with the new release focus. You emailed me and told me about Blood Angels, I freaking get it. Tell me something new for my $9 that I can't get for free from GW.com. Walk into any GW/game club and people play different things. So why focus so many pages to one army?

• Stop insulting us with lame battle reports and ignoring strong builds. Do your staff secretly play underground leaf blower type lists? I would wager they do. Let them have a real brawl and give us genuine tactical insight worth paying for.

• Be different to whats on your website. Its lazy and the team is capable of so much more, let them be creative - Not servitors.

I think that would be a start, but there is so much work to do i'd almost rather the funds go into new plastic crack. BUT for old times sake, I hope they do something. Maybe a game specific focus is whats needed and abandon the all-in-one approach? A slim-lined, creative, focused publication for the top 2 games. Much cheaper too. Collectors artwork, pullouts, scenarios, etc etc. I want to read about my hobby, is that so hard for them??

Any creative thoughts on how you would save the dwarf or re-invent it? Any other printed publications you think are a better example? maybe someone from GW will see them...

[DarkLink]

Though I don't read white dwarf at all, nor do I intend to, I think that they should start releasing more rules though it. If each issue has a couple of special mission scenarios or armylist expansions (new units, modifying rules for special factions, etc), I imagine it would attract more attention. All it has currently are a bunch of pictures and... well, I guess there are some articles about those pictures...

[fade_74]

Dude....get off it. I happen to like White Dwarf the way it is, and I bet I'm not the only one. I like the batreps that aren't power gamer oriented. I like to look at all the different new stuff. Even if it isn't about a game or army that I will never play. If you don't like those things....by all means.....DON'T BUY IT. lol If you think the magazine is crap....don't pick it up. If you are worried about the price...don't pay it. Whatever you do....you shouldn't go on the internet and ***** about it. If you really want something to do with all your extra time....and since you seem to know so much about publishing......go write your own magazine. Then you can put just what you want in it. Who knows....maybe I could even be your first subscriber! Or maybe I could just go on the internet and ***** about it......

[Levitas]

Dude....get off it. I happen to like White Dwarf the way it is, and I bet I'm not the only one. I like the batreps that aren't power gamer oriented. I like to look at all the different new stuff. Even if it isn't about a game or army that I will never play. If you don't like those things....by all means.....DON'T BUY IT. lol If you think the magazine is crap....don't pick it up. If you are worried about the price...don't pay it. Whatever you do....you shouldn't go on the internet and ***** about it. If you really want something to do with all your extra time....and since you seem to know so much about publishing......go write your own magazine. Then you can put just what you want in it. Who knows....maybe I could even be your first subscriber! Or maybe I could just go on the internet and ***** about it......

Really? Well thats cool you enjoy it. fair play to you.

I am by no means saying I know everything, or *****ing about it. In my opinion I think the magazine has declined out of complacency and misguided marketing. Just my veiw, as you have yours - fair?

I bought it in the hope it showed a glimmer of its superior past when it was so very much more than what it is today. I personally didnt find that, and I merely see that they are missing the point and potential of the publication. Its naive of me to think they wont advertise the new stuff, hey, i might be interested in that too. BUT when they over dose it and duplicate information what is free then how is that 1) helping them and 2) encouraging the gaming community to buy it?

I think they can do more with the battle reports. Tell me honestly that you think they are not a big advert every month for the latest release - and insultingly rigged?? I'd like to see more of the studios collection, conversion work and what they would take in their lists (not necessarily power orientated). Thier own tactics and thoughts on play etc.

The fact they have no competition means they can do what they like, how is that ever good?

Yeah, I know, dont buy it and dont wine about it - fair point - But wouldn't you rather say something and see it made better? If you read my post i was actually interested in seeing peoples ideas on improvement. Since GW hasnt done a readers survey in a while.

How do you know i am not a GW designer? How do i know you are not a GW designer? Do they view these forums?

[Gooball]

White dwarf should never EVER release rules, putting them online is still a mistake even as some people won't have access to them and therefore at a disadvantage. And just because all you play is 40k does not mean that fantasy and lord of the rings should be dropped from it. Hell it's named after a fantasy character even.
White dwarf is fine the way it is, Deal with it.
<More army expansions online would be cool>

[fade_74]

The reason they make the whole mag about the new army....is because of us....the gaming community. Everything is flavor of the month now. OMG Space marines roxors......OMG IG is the best.....OMG I love the spacewolves....OMG Tyranids are awesome!.....OMG blood angels! Everything is new and cool every 3 months and people buy the hell out of it. It is just the nature of the modern consumer. Look at all the stuff we buy from the computers to iphones to everything. Items are marketed in huge spurts. Remember how many Iphone commercials there were? Now they have tapered off a bit and something new will be out in a couple months and we will forget all about it. I see this as a valid marketing ploy. It works. As far as the batreps...yeah they are one sided. They admit that they play many practice games before the "real game". Of course they do that. If you have a new, cool product do you advertise the sucky parts of it? Nope....you glaze over those and show all the good stuff. I think the lists are kind of nice though. They sort of show off the good things about the new army, and avoid any serious cheese.
I do think they need to show more of the studio armies. I do think they need some new articles too. I think an article that focused on the gamers would be cool....Sort of like a "meet the geek" type thing.
The real reason I enjoy it.....is for the ideas. I have a creative streak about 1/2 inch long lol. I am a fair hand with a paintbrush, and a bonesaw for that matter. But I can't think up the things I do. I just replicate the things I see. I don't have a huge gaming community IRL so I look to gw, bols, and white dwarf to help me.

[murrburger]

WD sucks now, because it's just as crappy as every other gaming magazine out there. PC and console magazines are ridiculous now. Half of it is adverts, and the other half is the muppet writers reviewing (flogging) whatever new shiny peripheral or 'big hit' game is out, or coming out. (That also happens to have ads in the same magazine.) The console exclusive magazines have to be the worst offenders of all.

It's BS, and it makes me feel like a stupid ******* for spending money on it.

The only sections that I actually like are JJ's little blurb, and some of the painting/modeling stuff. I don't mind the Battle Reports, in all honesty, they're not horrible, but maybe it'd be nice if the game was out of three. Something to flesh the magazine out some more.

I would like to see more editorials, and more information from what goes on behind the scenes from the actual design staff, even if it's just something like a short interview. The reasoning behind new rules, new units, etc.

More painting stuff would be nice, it doesn't have to be GD quality, but just enough to get a nice looking army on the table.

The return of Chatper Approved would help things greatly. Even if there's no new units, and just new scenarios, famous campaigns, what have you.

I don't want GW to discuss the metagame, or anything competetive, though. That would be the final nail in the coffin for me. It shoud just be a hobby magazine, and not a gaming magazine.

[Levitas]

White dwarf should never EVER release rules, putting them online is still a mistake even as some people won't have access to them and therefore at a disadvantage. And just because all you play is 40k does not mean that fantasy and lord of the rings should be dropped from it. Hell it's named after a fantasy character even.
White dwarf is fine the way it is, Deal with it.
<More army expansions online would be cool>

Totally agree. I wasnt thinking rules either.

I think WD doesnt quite know where to sit with the Black library taking up background and story ,and the website covering the whole range of product and new release. Additions like planet strike and Missions cover the scenario/rules etc. So what should WD content be?

Can i just clarify that I am not bashing people that read it or gain enjoyment from its current incarnation. Or saying that they should drop coverage of games outside of 40k. I have an interest in those games too, but would like more substance from the articles. If you think WD is fine then cool. I do not, and out of an interest in web vs print simply seek how the magazine would move forward.

Ever read Edge magazine? it covers all platforms. I think edge magazine succeeds because it compliments the digital enjoyment and does not conflict with its own online presence. Compare that to WD and I dont see that synergy in place.

[ggg]

Not with Fade on this one.

I entirely agree with Levitas.

I buy the magazine as hobby tax. It is an overlong and bad catalogue update.

The price is ridiculous.

Every time I have discussed this with hobbyists in store the same view has been expressed. I do not know a single player in my area who thinks that WD is any good or would describe it as good value. The general consensus in England is that WD is rubbish. I also agree that it used to be better. Incidentally - there used to be store discount vouchers - wow - imagine that now? The typical line from the store manager "who's bought this month's WD?!" reply from any veterans' night "no." I would suggest, as harsh as it may sound, that those who like WD as it stands represent a fringe view.


The really damning factor is that WD should be a must buy purchase for all hobbyists. We are one of the most committed fan bases out there (perhaps outside of class A drug users) and this magazine is not universally purchased.


I attended a Nottingham open day a year or so ago. I put it to the then new WD editor that WD was no longer held in high regard, was bobbins and needed to change. It was quite funny when he insisted that it was not rigged so that the new army of the month won their battle report. He even denied that repeat games were held to ensure that there was the right result. Bearing in mind that the hard core of this hobby is made up geeks with above average intelligence, it was painful to hear such guff.

I then spoke with several other chaps from Nottingham and they asserted that WD would be taking a more hobby central view. There have been more painting articles but to date.... nothing.

It used to be quite prestigious to see a real army featured in the pages of WD but how rare it that? We do not see real armies featured in central articles. We should see real armies, real players, tactics and results - real community output showcased. - i.e. you get your army in say, Cambridge GW store window (there were 2 Golden Daemon statues on display next to armies in their cabinet ) - that guy should have a 2 page article with photos. Win the Big tournament? 2 page tactica and analysis - a small photo in the back pages is not enough. This would also encourage involvement with the GW stores - a loss leading engagement device not being utilised if ever there was one.

Drop standard bearer. I'm not interested in this month's Corporate Message.

Excellent question Levitas by the way, why have I never been surveyed about WD? Get some customer feed back.

It is not enough to say in a hobby such as this - 'don't buy it' when you don't like something re GW- as there is no competition in the production of the hobby I love. WD needs to change.

This needs to be addressed.

[Melissia]

I happen to like White Dwarf the way it is
And I think it's a piece of **** that only works to exemplify the marinewank inherent in the hobby instead of trying to create something more diverse. I could count the number of White Dwarf or Citadel Journals which even MENTION the Sisters of Battle with one hand. And the only one that had any REAL substance was over eight years ago. Even the Imperial Guard or Orks, my other two armies, rarely get anything in this catalog that masquerades as a magazine, only getting anything around the time of their codex releases and then WHOOP, it's back to fellating Calgar again.

[Kahoolin]

I have to disagree with you Levitas. I think WD works best how it is, as a sort of special companion to each new release. As has been said, BL does background already and the rules are well... in the rulebooks.

I think it's easy to say WD sucks if you are buying it every month. Of course you won't be interested in every month's new releases. But imagine if you DID play Blood Angels. You would probably buy that issue and be happy with it. It would be a sort of companion to your codex.

I have the SoB issue from years ago, and I have every issue focussing on Orks and Guard and their most recent books as I play those three armies. My friend plays nids and he bought the companion issue to nids. If you are interested in the feature then WD is good. If you aren't, then don't buy it. But even then we are all involved in an obsessive hobby and many people will buy every issue the same way that some people buy every codex and amy book. I for one only buy the ones that feature my armies, (and Golden Demon Issues) and the rest I get a coffee at Borders and read for free ;)

Oh and I don't care about realistic battle reports or new rules or anything. All of those things are available elsewhere, on this site for one. White Dwarf is unique. It gives you an exciting look at whatever is new that month and presents it in a glossy, readable format with it's best foot forward.

[fade_74]

And I think it's a piece of **** that only works to exemplify the marinewank inherent in the hobby instead of trying to create something more diverse. I could count the number of White Dwarf or Citadel Journals which even MENTION the Sisters of Battle with one hand. And the only one that had any REAL substance was over eight years ago. Even the Imperial Guard or Orks, my other two armies, rarely get anything in this catalog that masquerades as a magazine, only getting anything around the time of their codex releases and then WHOOP, it's back to fellating Calgar again.

Don't worry Melissia.....When the sisters get released again you will get a whole issue.....You should probably buy 2 though.....That way you have an extra copy. When your drool ruins your first issue...you have a backup. Maybe your backup should be laminated.....

[norge187]

I haven't had a WD subscription since 98. Based in part they are so F'ing expensive just to subscribe and the content now is really mediocre at best. I firmly believe that complacency has set in. The last one I purchased was in 07 and wasn't impressed hence why I have not purchased another one. I would rather listen 40k radio every two weeks than spend money on a subscription that doesn't offer much. There isn't much content to warrant my money being spent there.

I would rather feed my plastic addiction than get a magazine that is boring and wasteful...well i could use it to start a fire however...

[Levitas]

Not with Fade on this one.

I entirely agree with Levitas.

I buy the magazine as hobby tax. It is an overlong and bad catalogue update.

The price is ridiculous.

Every time I have discussed this with hobbyists in store the same view has been expressed. I do not know a single player in my area who thinks that WD is any good or would describe it as good value. The general consensus in England is that WD is rubbish. I also agree that it used to be better. Incidentally - there used to be store discount vouchers - wow - imagine that now? The typical line from the store manager "who's bought this month's WD?!" reply from any veterans' night "no." I would suggest, as harsh as it may sound, that those who like WD as it stands represent a fringe view.


The really damning factor is that WD should be a must buy purchase for all hobbyists. We are one of the most committed fan bases out there (perhaps outside of class A drug users) and this magazine is not universally purchased.


I attended a Nottingham open day a year or so ago. I put it to the then new WD editor that WD was no longer held in high regard, was bobbins and needed to change. It was quite funny when he insisted that it was not rigged so that the new army of the month won their battle report. He even denied that repeat games were held to ensure that there was the right result. Bearing in mind that the hard core of this hobby is made up geeks with above average intelligence, it was painful to hear such guff.

I then spoke with several other chaps from Nottingham and they asserted that WD would be taking a more hobby central view. There have been more painting articles but to date.... nothing.

It used to be quite prestigious to see a real army featured in the pages of WD but how rare it that? We do not see real armies featured in central articles. We should see real armies, real players, tactics and results - real community output showcased. - i.e. you get your army in say, Cambridge GW store window (there were 2 Golden Daemon statues on display next to armies in their cabinet ) - that guy should have a 2 page article with photos. Win the Big tournament? 2 page tactica and analysis - a small photo in the back pages is not enough. This would also encourage involvement with the GW stores - a loss leading engagement device not being utilised if ever there was one.

Drop standard bearer. I'm not interested in this month's Corporate Message.

Excellent question Levitas by the way, why have I never been surveyed about WD? Get some customer feed back.

It is not enough to say in a hobby such as this - 'don't buy it' when you don't like something re GW- as there is no competition in the production of the hobby I love. WD needs to change.

This needs to be addressed.

I think you have hit at a good direction. Give it to the players. Let it be something that is real, with real armies. I for one like seeing other gamers armies, conversions and tips etc. Even hearing war stories.

Its sad that GW dont see that the standard has dropped, and you heard straight from the horses mouth too. After all these years I still think GW doesnt fully understand its customers.

My very predicament today is that i wanted to read something about my hobby, but was unplugged. There was no printed alternative.

The economy has probably hit GW to some extent, so there is pressure to shift plastic i'm sure. That in itself pushes a more aggressive marketing strategy, maybe even accepting that the regulars will just gloss over the advert saturation - and to an extent they are right. But WD is the last to tell me about new release, new product is always first seen on sites like BoLs then maybe an email from GW with site links. direct to product. Now I know that not every gamer is fully plugged and for some WD is the first to tell them, but how high can this percentage be?

GW is aware that it is a niche hobby and will not get casual walk-bys easily, it has no wii to pull in the masses alongside the geek. So it adopts a claustrophobic marketing method in both stores and press, and so does apple and others it seems. So somewhere along the line WD has been brought in line to pull in more customers - aimed at the curious. Play an intro game and buy a WD, come back next week and buy the blood angel battle force. It's a business afterall.

For us existing customers it seems we are to get our fix from the black library and GWs blog etc. But if they did re-think WD then it would pull in a lot more revenue from existing gamers than walk-ins. If it was gamer focused then sales would maybe increase.

[Melissia]

Don't worry Melissia.....When the sisters get released again you will get a whole issue.....You should probably buy 2 though.....That way you have an extra copy. When your drool ruins your first issue...you have a backup. Maybe your backup should be laminated.....

And then after that one issue they'll be ignored for another two editions. Doesn't redeem White Dwarf, only proves its worthlessness to me.

[Kahoolin]

Levitas and ggg, you make good points. I'm not sure a rethink of WD would work though. If WD changed to be more community focussed and blog-like, it would essentially be a physical reprint of the community sites and the GW blog just so you could read them when you can't go online. This makes terrible business sense.

Print media is on the way out, all the big magazine companies know it. A tiny company like GW can't afford to run a magazine that no-one will buy, and I think it probably sells more copies right now to impressionable kids, flavour of the month gamers and curious new players than there are veteran players in the world. That's not to say that that is a lot of copies.

To put this in perspective, I collected Dragon magazine for over fifteen years, and was actually very sad when Wizards of the Coast axed it and replaced it with online blog content. That's Wizards of the Coast people, i.e. Hasbro. If freakin Hasbro can't afford to maintain a 30 year old community-serving print glossy for the Dungeons and Dragons community (which is -or was- pretty big), GW could not sustain WD under similar conditions, it's as simple as that.

My guess is that WD only still exists at all because it is shiny, and not too demanding, and advertises the latest thing to kids who are new to the hobby. Don't worry, you'll get your wish. It will be canned. In a sense it already has been. As you guys have pointed out, all the valuable content is online now. The race has been run, and we can't turn back the clock. WD is a monthly catalogue with extra features. To try to make it anything else, to return it to the 'good old days', would surely destroy it totally.

That may or may not be a bad thing, but my point is the days of old style high content glossy hobby magazines are over, WD included. To expect anything more than what you get, in that format, is a vain hope AFAIC.

[fade_74]

And then after that one issue they'll be ignored for another two editions. Doesn't redeem White Dwarf, only proves its worthlessness to me.

Sorry Melissia, but I think that unless it ran all sisters all the time, you would still be unsatisfied. Maybe you should put some time and effort into a SOB website. Kind of a "if I want it done right I'll have to do it myself" sorta thing. You seem to know a lot about them and are a very dedicated fan. Hell, I would even write a painting article for ya!

[Image]

Also coming from a marketing perspective, it needs to be established what role WD plays for GW. Certainly, as has been mentioned, it's an overpriced marketing tool that highlights each new product in the best possible light. It's a catalogue, pure and simple. It doesn't sell advertising space to any one, merely uses that space for its own advertising. In a journalism viewpoint, it's not hobby news. Again, it's a catalogue. And that advertising that it creates, by selling it to the reader while simultaneously selling the reader on the newest products is likely a profitable exercise, allowing faster development of codexes and newer miniatures. I agree with Melissia that fewer marine codexes should be released (even though I love them, I don't think it's great for the hobby as a whole), I'm nonetheless constantly surprised by the pace at which new items are being released.

Honestly, I buy the magazine. The advertising works on me. I'm addicted to this plastic crack as terribly as anyone else and enjoy seeing high detail photos of the latest products. While it's absolutely true that all of this can be seen in a variety of spaces online, I personally enjoy reading it because I like to get away from the computer and the iPhone isn't great for browsing online (too small of a screen for high-detail photos).

Now, I certainly believe that there is too much pointless fluff. While we all know that the latest army will win in their army battle report (or at least draw :P) facing two sub-par lists against one another, the editorials are what I find to be the most useless. Jervis Johnson's monthly Standard Bearer article is merely an exercise in masturbation.

So, do I think they should change the format of WD? Yes, to an extent I do. I'd like to see that this hobby does create a community (in fact, in the first WD Canadian edition, the hobby hero is a guy that I'd previously played; I liked that), but with its centralized publishing, it's difficult to feel that the game builds a tight-knit, local community. Moreover, in the marine-focused approach that GW maintains, it's surprising to see any discussions of 3rd and 4th ed. codexes. I'd like to see more of that too; I think that would be healthy for the hobby.

Ultimately, I'd like WD to be a supplement to the hobby, not a supplement to sales, even though I'd argue it helps fuel all those new dolls coming out! :)

[scadugenga]

I no longer buy white dwarf because I cannot fathom any reason, in this, or any other economy, for spending $9.00 US for a $4.00 content rag.

WD used to have meaning, balls, and purpose. Now? It seems to have a standard A, B, C format where nothing original gets proposed or done.

I just went back through recently and culled all my back issues and this only emphasized the problem:

White Dwarf was good back in the day. Not just because they had things that were not released before. (IE first army lists ever (space marines, Harlequin's (IIRC, 109-110 for Harlies); ads for non-GW content, and *gasp* original ideas and risk-taking.)

Then they had other good things going on--like sections supporting all the sub-games (Mordheim (still a fave), BB, Gothic, GorkaMorka) that were fun interesting reads even if I didn't play the particular sub game.

Hell, they even used to run comics. (Anyone remember Thrudd?)

Or advertise bits prices.

Now?

Not so much.

Scratch what I said earlier. I don't even think it's worth $4.00.

I might, *might* buy the WD w/the new nightspinner rules. (if it even has the actual rules...) Just for variation. And I'll *still* balk at the absurd price...

[Lanparth]

There was a time where White Dwarf had brilliant articles, fluff, rules, and goodies for the hobbiest. Now its a piece of ****, and I have no quams saying that. The local hobby places don't even bring it in anymore, funny that, and why should they? Its a turd sandwich without any special sauce.

I won't buy it until it has a purpose other than being an overpriced catalog.

[addamsfamily36]

I think it's easy to say WD sucks if you are buying it every month. Of course you won't be interested in every month's new releases. But imagine if you DID play Blood Angels. You would probably buy that issue and be happy with it. It would be a sort of companion to your codex.


I'm a HUGE blood angels fan, possibly my favorite army, as well as being my first real force. I brought the current white dwarf and i can say i was hugely disappointed. why?

Reasons:

1 - the unit by unit break down - simply listed what the unit was and briefly its role. no real insight or tactical analysis for either a veteran or new player to get stuck into or be interested in. All in all i think this covered about 6-8 pages of the magazine which were nothing more than a few pictures of units and their name.

2 - Battle report, i won't even go into how ridiculous that chaos list was. also the structure of the battle report has become a bit blegh and i used to love the excitement and over exaggerated commentary that went with it.

3- Overkill - i would love a whole white dwarf of blood angels stuff front front to back, if the articles were god, but frankly after awhile i was almost getting bored of reading about them! and i seriously bum this army lol


One good Bit:

the Sanguinor painting article. Not a fan of the NMM technique, but this is the FIRST painting article i have seen in a long time that really explained the process and technique and gave realistic paint mixtures, unlike some painting articles where even in the pictures you can see steps that clearly haven't been mentioned, or how a color suddenly changes from being bright blue to a nice richly shaded blue without any steps to explain this change from one picture to the next lol.

[DarkLink]

Sorry Melissia, but I think that unless it ran all sisters all the time, you would still be unsatisfied. Maybe you should put some time and effort into a SOB website. Kind of a "if I want it done right I'll have to do it myself" sorta thing. You seem to know a lot about them and are a very dedicated fan. Hell, I would even write a painting article for ya!

I think the problem she's getting at is that the current quality of WD is so low, that the only time she would want to buy it was when it covered her favorite faction, and even then probably only when it was leading up to a new release of said faction.

If WD could find some way to bump up the quality of its content then they might be able to get everyone interested in all of their issues, rather than just the one or two relevant ones every few years.

[Ssyrie]

Hell, they even used to run comics. (Anyone remember Thrudd?)


Remember him? Hell, I got a mini of Thrudd.

[scadugenga]

Remember him? Hell, I got a mini of Thrudd.

I lost mine somewhere in the late 90's...

[Melissia]

Sorry Melissia, but I think that unless it ran all sisters all the time, you would still be unsatisfied.And you are dead wrong. Do not speak of things you have no clue about.

The last Sisters info in White Dwarf, aside from a painting section copied literally out of the back of the ****ing codex, was in 2001 (WD 253). And THAT info was literally ripped right from the Games Workshop website at the time. The previous information, and the only good article on Sisters was back in September 1997 (WD 212).

There are sixteen factions (technically, twelve and four Marine subfactions) in 40k; in the last ten years the Sisters of Battle have appeared in only two out of the last hundred and twenty or so issues, meaning the Sisters have appeared in barely over 1.6% of all White Dwarf content, and that is assuming you count the lazy painting article. If you do not, then it comes to around 0.8%. And in both of these the issue was not completely dedicated to the Sisters like it often is for Marines.

I just want GW to start giving the faction SOME *******ed attention. and yet for wanting my faction to actually have some new ****ing fluff behind it, because I would want an article about a heroine of the Adepta Sororitas that we have not heard about, that I would want to know more about the army I love, because of this you would accuse me of being greedy?

Suffice it to say, my response would get me a warning, and it would be full of insults and profanity and hatred for your post and quite possibly you as a... person.

[eldargal]

I don't like what White Dwarf has become, though my six brothers and I share a subscription. I am hoping the Spearhead issue is going to herald a return to a more hobbyist centred WD, with the odd rules supplement, along with painting and scenary articles and whatnot. I mean it is a GW magazine, technically every page is advertising something or other so why not fill it with useful things?
More even coverage of the factions would be nice. I get why they might not want ot have a fully fledged author working on a xenos book that might not sell well, so why not but more xenos short stories and what not in WD?

[entendre_entendre]

WD has been so meh for me in the last couple of years so I finally gave up my subscription. It was getting to the point that I would barely even read the thing, because everything it had, the internet had better. Hell, I didn't even have to leave the mainpage of sites to get far better material than what was coming in WD. I would just pick up my issue from the mail, look at the cover, skim a few articles, usually knowing absolutely everything about the new and shiny things they were trying to sell me.

I think my loss of interest for WD was because it became more about selling than anything else. BUY BUY BUY is not a message I'm interested in having shoved down my throat (I much prefer bite-sized portions). The WD of today is a catalog transvestite dressing up as a hobby magazine. You'll get a nasty surprise if you're not familiar with it.

How to improve WD from the drek it is now would be to make the community more involved.
How could GW do this? Take a selection of articles from one area of the world at a time per issue. For Example: one month it would be the UK, the next USA, next Australia, Europe, Canada, Asia, etc. These article would not need to be the main article, but would gather opinions of hobbyists on whatever crosses their minds/on specific issues concerning GW or whatever. The purpose would be to show the community and how they differ around the world.

Another idea would be to showcase one or more hobbyists' armies per issue in detail. These armies would be unique well painted/modeled and a short interview with the owner might inspire others to similar ideas. If GW wanted this to be more profit oriented, they could showcase armies that have conversions with lots of expensive conversions (i.e. three Stormravens, Exodite Eldar riding stegadons, etc.).

Conversion tips would help newbies create something more their own, while increasing the number of kits (hopefully for GW) bought to fuel those conversions. The last conversion article I remember (as in I stored it in my memory and I didn't just blank out on) was in WD 300. Now that was an issue. That is what I want (though not necessarily that size).

Just some thoughts unlikely to be acted upon.

[UltramarineFan]

The general consensus in England is that WD is rubbish

WTF??? Think before you type. I live in the UK too and everyone I've across to date(and that's quite a few as I regularly go to my local GW) buys White Dwarf and is an avid reader. Unless you have single handedly carried out a national survey on what people think of WD then you have no idea what the general consensus in England is.

[UltramarineFan]

The previous information, and the only good article on Sisters was back in September 1997 (WD 212).

Hehehe, I was two then.

I have to say that I agree with Melissia in that, while I like WD, it is totally unreasonable to say that SoB don't need more support and to be shown way more in WD. Atm they're coverage is negligible at best, which is really something that GW needs to sort out, either release an army and support it properly like you should or don't release it.

[TSINI]

Stopped buying WD long ago, by subscribing to the forgeworld newsletter, and signing up for the GW one, then you get all the pre-release and release info you could ever want, for free.

rules should be online so you can download them to your pc for personal copies (rather than the usual huge stack of White Dwarves cluttering your room)

my idea for improvements to white dwarf would be:

More Battle reports

1 new release battle report is rediculous considering how much playtesting they must go through, I remember in the good ol' days when you would get all sorts of battle reports, gorkamorka, 3 sided ork warfare (thats a game with three players), BFG, Inquisitor(briefly), I even read the fantasy ones because they were so nicely written, with jokes and real player tactica rather than the ambiguous drivel given now.

there were Blog-esque articles where writers would describe the fun around the table not just on it. (my particular favourite was a guy(can't remember who) talking about those "special" people who would use their body to gauge guess range weapons, one example being 48" from his nose to a birthmark on his inner thigh, making for interesting balancing acts over ranks of spearment - who he inevitably fell onto...

my point being it was a much more personally written book, rather than a paragraph of "how the game went" from each player at the end of the only battle report in the mag.

Maybe they should document a campaign, playing their own games for key areas, and inviting us to send in our game results to influence the campaign result. updating us every month about what parts of the planet/system have fallen so that we can tailor our next games to suit.

so, to White Dwarf:

make the mag more reader involved, maybe have a "letters" section or something or emails might be easier
stop treating us like children, we bought a printed magazine - we are literate
stop shouting at us about the new release, one advert section at the beginning is enough thanks
more gamers, gw staff and readers alike, who doesnt like looking at other people's armies?
more battle reports - 3 battle reports wouldnt be hard to do (a month...), in the past pretty pictures werent even needed, just diagrams of what happened were enough
include some of the specialist games - these games might not be so popular as the main few, but advertising them to people who have never heard of them isn't exactly a bad thing is it... and showing off how cool they are to play could hardly damage your image!
chatty dialogue is not a bad thing for a company based on fun, lose the impersonal write ups

[harrybuttwhisker]

Firstly I disapprove of the fact the title thread has a negative bias on it, serving to attract more people with a negative attitude rather than an open discussion. Anyone who works in media should know the way a question is asked has a bearing on the answer.

As far as WD goes it is nowhere near as bad as it was in the early nineties and still shows signs of improvement, should something be retired whilst improving? There have been many complaints about the advertising element in WD, anyone who buys a magazine is buying an advert not just WD, this is the current state of printed media. Also not everyone has access to the internet or a local GW store to find out about new releases, its a global hobby after all. Are we truly trying to say if your underpriviliged or live in a developing country you shouldn't be allowed to be a part of the hobby? How else are some individuals to get there info? or are we simply suggesting we become hobby fascists that only allow westerners to enjoy the hobby?

As far as the price goes, I find it comparable to most magazines in the UK available on the open market, as for abroad I cannot say but remember any imports cost more, I pay more for various hobby magazines from all round the world, even ones that come from as closeby as spain even though the pound is a stronger currency.

Rather than change the price carte blanche perhaps the best solution would be to have more localised printers to minimise travel cost, something which is very high on printed material.

As for content the strong areas seem to be the regular high quality painting guide, just because you aren't painting that exact model doesn't mean you can't use the techniques on other things. In particular this months guide by darran latham on painting NMM is one of the best you will find anywhere.

Jervis's column is designed to convey the more human part of the hobby ethos and as included whenever he can find time to write it and is usually very enjoyable.

The showcases and interviews with the painters and sculptors covering there inspirations and beginnings are always a good read and informative though good be a little longer.

Rules content is mostly to provide access to core rules added to a system for non-interenet users, LotR being the prime example of this kind of support and wait a minute dont we have spearhead coming soon?

The one big area I feel that could be improved is the community coverage, the journal used to fill this nicely with letters, battle reports, army focus and house rules. I don't feel that house rules would be appropriate in such a large magazine however. The rest could do with being added.

This takes me back to the more localised publishing.

If WD was printed more geographically it could donate x amount of pages to community relevant to that geographic area, such as coverage of the large independent tournament scene in the US. This would also require high quality input from the community, however I feel in a digital age this shouldn't be as difficult to achieve in the past.

On the whole I feel that WD is a perfectly good read, but overseas pricing could be an issue and that it needs to increase its community spotlight.

Of course im probably wrong ;-)

[addamsfamily36]

WTF??? Think before you type. I live in the UK too and everyone I've across to date(and that's quite a few as I regularly go to my local GW) buys White Dwarf and is an avid reader. Unless you have single handedly carried out a national survey on what people think of WD then you have no idea what the general consensus in England is.


sorry i had to make a few comments on this one:

- your telling me Most customers of your local GW Buy every white dwarf produced (because it should be a must have for most hobbyists but its not)?

- Average sales of white dwarf in the uk HAVE fallen, my proof? My local GW has seen sales drop increasingly over recent months/year, i also go to a local GW at uni and the same thing has happened. I Work in Whsmiths a stockist of the magazine, and after dropping sales, we placed the magazine at the front of the shelves in a special promotional container (big orange thing) to spotlight it. it has now been pushed right back on display. Subscribers have also been pulling out and GW have been receving alot of complaints on this service. A friend of mine Paid for a 12 month subscription and 8 issues failed to arrive, he got his first issue on the (th month of his subscription even though he had made regular quries as to his subscription or lack of it. And he's not the only one that this has happened too.


So Gamesworkshop is struggling to sell White dwarf In other outlets. Sales have dropped within their own shops, and they have had recent bad feedback on their subscription service.

i would say that the Consensus in the uk isn't great.

[UltramarineFan]

sorry i had to make a few comments on this one:

- your telling me Most customers of your local GW Buy every white dwarf produced (because it should be a must have for most hobbyists but its not)?

- Average sales of white dwarf in the uk HAVE fallen, my proof? My local GW has seen sales drop increasingly over recent months/year, i also go to a local GW at uni and the same thing has happened. I Work in Whsmiths a stockist of the magazine, and after dropping sales, we placed the magazine at the front of the shelves in a special promotional container (big orange thing) to spotlight it. it has now been pushed right back on display. Subscribers have also been pulling out and GW have been receving alot of complaints on this service. A friend of mine Paid for a 12 month subscription and 8 issues failed to arrive, he got his first issue on the (th month of his subscription even though he had made regular quries as to his subscription or lack of it. And he's not the only one that this has happened too.


So Gamesworkshop is struggling to sell White dwarf In other outlets. Sales have dropped within their own shops, and they have had recent bad feedback on their subscription service.

i would say that the Consensus in the uk isn't great.

I am telling you that most people buy it because it ia magazine that they like to read, therefore disproving your theory that 'people I know don't like it therefore it is the same in the rest of the country'.
Your proof is still entirely based on what has happened near you, I realise that the same applies for my evidence but then I'm not making claims about the whole country. What hap[ens near where you live does not provide the template for the sales patterns of the entire country, especially considering the number of GWs in the UK.
Tbh WD never sold particularly well in the other outlets, at WHSmiths nearby they only ever had a few copies at best. Same when I've been to France, there are usually a few copies in shops that sell that kind of thing but it has never been a big seeling area for WD, most people who buy them go to GW stores to get it.
As for the subscriptions, I also know people who subscribe and this is the first I've heard of there being problems, though it is a problem with GW that their delivery service isn't great.

[Shagrath]

I really no longer see the point of white dwarf anymore..You just go to the website or warseer project logs, and bam you have everything you need to succeed. It's really too much fluff these days.

Plus I miss my old american staff, unfortunately they all got sacked.

Also the battle reports are staged jokes..About as real as professional wrestling.

Needs a heavy revamp or less instances of "buy this."

[Kettu]

...aside from a painting section copied literally out of the back of the ****ing codex...
...and that is assuming you count the lazy painting article.

Sorry, I have to ask, what painting guide? Unless I missed an issue (I read them in store, they have an issue just for that) then the Aussie one never ran the article.
This is odd because the Aussie one is the same as, I believe, the UK one.

[Levitas]

Having read through all the posts i'm surprised by the variety of attitude towards White Dwarf, and also encouraged by the feedback. I didnt help proceedings by shaping the post in a negative spin, you can perhaps put this down to an old rogue traders nostalgic frustrations. Apologies there.

Its clear some gamers are more than happy with the way it is, content to let it sit along side the mighty interweb, and be what it will be. Some will spend their $9 eleswhere, after all thats 9 happy wendy moments on the dollar menu. I think there are also some real and genuine ideas of how to improve it and pull in more readers (if indeed it does need them as we have no conclusive proof)

I agree that the web covers community well...or does it? Depends on where you look i guess. A shiny professional sheen would be welcome. Armies professionally photographed and reports spell checked etc, along with the customary GW art. It would also allow people to reach a broader audience, those that do not have the big forums book marked.

I'm not against GW selling its wares, I buy them afterall. I would just like to see a change to some of its pages, and break the trend set by other magazines (console specific etc) And also dedicate more space to different armies, I can see where Melissia is coming from on that one. I play Raven Guard too, so not really expecting them to grace the cover any time soon. Although they are getting FW love.

I do hope WD gets stronger, for the reason it can still have a varied purpose in serving both the hobby community and toy soldier sales. It just depends if GW wants that, or is happy with its current condition. It is strange they have not done a reader review for a while, i actually cant remember the last one, anyone? That tells me that they are happy with the way it is, dont want to put the time and money into a review or have undisclosed plans for it.

[fade_74]

And you are dead wrong. Do not speak of things you have no clue about.

The last Sisters info in White Dwarf, aside from a painting section copied literally out of the back of the ****ing codex, was in 2001 (WD 253). And THAT info was literally ripped right from the Games Workshop website at the time. The previous information, and the only good article on Sisters was back in September 1997 (WD 212).

There are sixteen factions (technically, twelve and four Marine subfactions) in 40k; in the last ten years the Sisters of Battle have appeared in only two out of the last hundred and twenty or so issues, meaning the Sisters have appeared in barely over 1.6% of all White Dwarf content, and that is assuming you count the lazy painting article. If you do not, then it comes to around 0.8%. And in both of these the issue was not completely dedicated to the Sisters like it often is for Marines.

I just want GW to start giving the faction SOME *******ed attention. and yet for wanting my faction to actually have some new ****ing fluff behind it, because I would want an article about a heroine of the Adepta Sororitas that we have not heard about, that I would want to know more about the army I love, because of this you would accuse me of being greedy?

Suffice it to say, my response would get me a warning, and it would be full of insults and profanity and hatred for your post and quite possibly you as a... person.


oooohh looks like I stuck a nerve! I'm sorry that the sisters don't get more attention....but the fact is....Inquisition probably has the smallest fan base. So...you don't get all the attention because you don't play one of the popular armies. Hell....when is the last time you saw a necron article. You will get your love when your new army book comes out. As will the necrons...tau...daemonhunters...etc.

I didn't accuse you of being greedy. I accused you of being unsatisfied. Two totally different things.

You can dish out all the hate you want. I, unlike some, really don't give a crap. Insult away if it makes you feel better. Curse all you want. It still doesn't change the fact that I had a reasonable suggestion to your problem. Do it yourself if nobody is doing it for you. Or maybe you are like the rest of the internet crowd and most of the world. Yell and scream and holler because of something you don't like. But will you get off your rear end and do a little work to change things? Nope.

As for the last bit....I'm not a person....and neither are you. We are just little voices yearning to be heard on the big ol internet. Now...if we were having this discussion face to face...things would be a little different.

[addamsfamily36]

I am telling you that most people buy it because it ia magazine that they like to read, therefore disproving your theory that 'people I know don't like it therefore it is the same in the rest of the country'.
Your proof is still entirely based on what has happened near you, I realise that the same applies for my evidence but then I'm not making claims about the whole country. What hap[ens near where you live does not provide the template for the sales patterns of the entire country, especially considering the number of GWs in the UK.
Tbh WD never sold particularly well in the other outlets, at WHSmiths nearby they only ever had a few copies at best. Same when I've been to France, there are usually a few copies in shops that sell that kind of thing but it has never been a big seeling area for WD, most people who buy them go to GW stores to get it.
As for the subscriptions, I also know people who subscribe and this is the first I've heard of there being problems, though it is a problem with GW that their delivery service isn't great.

Both location for the GW stores are miles apart, and ok they might only represent a small catchment area in regards to total sales, but sales have dropped it was discussed at a head office meeting (or so one of the managers told me)

In my opinion White Dwarf has become a glorified catalogue. As a Graphic design Student, we have looked at the importance of the printed media vs the digital empire that is the web. There are many in the advertising and business world that believe the book/printed market is a Dying trade. Games workshop have the opportunity to combine a mixture of hobby related topics with some advertising, yet each White dwarf just covers what their own website does. you can even download/view most of the better white dwarf articles from their own archive. as much as i think the price for white dwarf is fair when compared to magazines of a similiar page count, i see no reason as to why you would want to buy it when you could view most of the information for free.

Now if they made the magazine unique and completely independent of the information you could get for free, you would have a strong publication that people would want to buy for its content, and then in doing so you could put in key advertising (as i understand its a business it needs to advertise) and its win win for the company and the reader.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Personally speaking, and that is WITH bias and what I want/dont want and also without any regard for business-sense - I find it redundant and completely uninteresting. I would buy White Dwarf if it was more a companion to the games they sell - in that they have rules and backround for more smaller/niche factions, extra characters for existing armies - cards and rule pieces that can be used to expand the games or even their very own games (mini-game of the month ect would be rather interesting). I would like to see things such as new fluff, not like what black library do but more expansions of codices - i.e. an article on a new craftworld, chapter, warband, tombworld with fluff, photos, painting tutorials and artwork ect. I would like WD to do their own factions - put the minor xeno races or WHFB factions into WD and sell a few metal blisters for them and build them up a bit over a year ect... stuff like that would be the direction I would like to see them go with that would appeal to me. I dont expect anyone to agree of course (read the first sentence again to see why).

[lordbubonicus]

there were Blog-esque articles where writers would describe the fun around the table not just on it. (my particular favourite was a guy(can't remember who) talking about those "special" people who would use their body to gauge guess range weapons, one example being 48" from his nose to a birthmark on his inner thigh, making for interesting balancing acts over ranks of spearment - who he inevitably fell onto...

I remember that article as well. I'm pretty sure that issue is still lying around the house somewhere, I'll have to go dig it out now. Those were the days.



so, to White Dwarf:

make the mag more reader involved, maybe have a "letters" section or something or emails might be easier
stop treating us like children, we bought a printed magazine - we are literate
stop shouting at us about the new release, one advert section at the beginning is enough thanks
more gamers, gw staff and readers alike, who doesnt like looking at other people's armies?
more battle reports - 3 battle reports wouldnt be hard to do (a month...), in the past pretty pictures werent even needed, just diagrams of what happened were enough
include some of the specialist games - these games might not be so popular as the main few, but advertising them to people who have never heard of them isn't exactly a bad thing is it... and showing off how cool they are to play could hardly damage your image!
chatty dialogue is not a bad thing for a company based on fun, lose the impersonal write ups

This is, imho, an excellent list of suggestions. I find it interesting that if I go back through my collection, a number of them were actually included in WD in the past. I'd be interested to know why they got rid of them, but suspect that I'd not get a straight answer. C'est la vie. I do feel that WD, which had been improving again a couple of years ago, seems to have fallen back to its low point. YMMV of course.

To touch briefly on my experience of WD sales in the UK, we had a subscription for two years. We stopped it because we felt that the content was decreasing in both quantity and quality, although perhaps part of that was more discerning taste as we grew up. Out of my original gaming group, noone buys WD anymore. At all. I occasionally browse through the issues on the shelf in WHSmiths, but never see anything that would make me want to purchase it. The closest I've come was when the were giving away the free planetstrike tiles and terminators.

[Melissia]

Sorry, I have to ask, what painting guide? Unless I missed an issue (I read them in store, they have an issue just for that) then the Aussie one never ran the article.
This is odd because the Aussie one is the same as, I believe, the UK one.
It was WD 292, even had C:WH's cover image as the cover for the magazine, but with "White Dwarf" instead of "Codex: Witch Hunters".


I didn't accuse you of being greedy. I accused you of being unsatisfied. Two totally different things.No crap I'm unsatisfied. And I'm perfectly justified in feeling that way no matter what you might spout. White Dwarf is a steaming pile of feces, and has been for a decade.

One of the big reasons why the Sisters haven't sold well is because nobody damn knows about them. I've had to argue with people about whether or not my Sisters army is actually a legal Games Workshop army. At least one person thought C:WH was a fake codex, all of this because GW never advertises the army and rarely ever has any of the army placed on the shelves. Yes, it's a niche army, because GW MADE it into a niche army by giving it zero support, zero advertisement, and zero attention right from the get go.

[Sparda]

I think WD is alright, I didn't read there old stuff which is probably why I'm not disappointed in there new stuff but to me it just seems like they advertise the new models and have a battle report which usually involves the new models to, for $75 a year its not to bad. Now buying each issue for $9 each is another story. =/

[fade_74]

I'm done with you melissia. Anyone who accuses me of spouting putrid bile and then turns around and calls White Dwarf a steaming pile of Dogcrap isn't worth the effort. If you want your army to be popular then try writing some articles or some fiction. Paint up some cool minis and show them off. Or you could just sit there doing nothing while your precious sisters die out. I personally hope they do. I thing the SOB was a half hearted attempt at attracting female gamers. They have no real appeal to me...or dare say....most 40k gamers. Might I also say....that there are far more people who buy WD than Witchhunters items....after all, your army is stuck at the back of the bus gathering dust, while WD is still going strong. Everyone keeps talking trash...but the FACT is.....WD is popular.....It is still making them money. It costs a veritable ton of money to produce a magazine. Especially a magazine that doesn't sell advertising space to other companies. If it weren't making money, it would have got the axe a long time ago.

[Melissia]

I AM doing what I can to spread information and joy about the Sisters and get people to buy them. But I'm only one person, not a full blown damn company with its own advertisement magazine (which is all WD is nowadays, it has nothing of any real value) and several websites and millions of dollars to spend. Nothing I make up is canon, I certainly have no license to write a 40k novel, my homebrew codex is actually almost complete and quite in depth and good quality but it's still just a homebrew codex and thus it will never be used by most players, if only because I can't actually REACH most players from where I am... and so really, all I can do is gather as much info as I can and share that information in a way that expresses my love of the faction. This, I do. I've convinced around a dozen people to buy some Sisters simply through my talking about them, and most of them are quite pleased with their purchase. I'm advertising Sisters more than the company that ****ing MAKES them do, so don't give me any of that crap.

And I stand by my statement of WD being crap. I have no reason to buy it, so I don't.

[ggg]

WTF??? Think before you type. I live in the UK too and everyone I've across to date(and that's quite a few as I regularly go to my local GW) buys White Dwarf and is an avid reader. Unless you have single handedly carried out a national survey on what people think of WD then you have no idea what the general consensus in England is.

Ah, you might be surprised. Work makes me travel and I like to pop into local stores to see what the local scene is like - In the last year the GW stores I have visited include:

Bristol
Bath
Romford
Thurrock Lakeside
Bluewater
Northampton
Leicester
Oxford
Nottingham x 2
Birmingham
Stratford upon Avon
Colchester
Southend
TottenhamCourt Road
Cambridge
St albans
Reading
Croydon
Covent Garden
Chelmsford
Basingstoke
Solihul
Exeter.


- go back further (18 months) and I have also visited Gloucester, Cheltenham and Worcester.

I suggest that this reflects a sizable cross section of UK stores - admittedly in the South West, South East and Midlands (I don't go North much).

And yes, there are a few repeat topics that crop up when you chat to players you don't know. I hear more discussion about what is on the on-line blogs than about WD. When I do mention something in WD I tend to get limited responses. When I do discuss WD the feed back is awful. I stick by what I wrote earlier. I would even go on to say - WD's limited popularity tends to be limited to younger gamers.

But, without real research by GW (which I believe to be lazy and really poor) there can be no truly authoritative claims about the breakdown of response to the mag.

I would be very interested to know the store you visit that loves WD so much.

[UltramarineFan]

Ok, its Guildford if you want to know.
'But, without real research by GW (which I believe to be lazy and really poor) there can be no truly authoritative claims about the breakdown of response to the mag. ' Which is along way of saying that I'm right.

[Melissia]

That doesn't prove your point. Given how many he's visited, he'd have a better idea of the consensus than you, as you've only shown you know of one. While nobody at the moment knows the entire truth, he would, given his travels, know more of it.

[DarkLink]

Anyone who accuses me of spouting putrid bile and then turns around and calls White Dwarf a steaming pile of Dogcrap isn't worth the effort.

She has every right to dislike White Dwarf. That's entirely a matter of personal opinion, and hers is that WD isn't worth money.

As for the spouting part, I didn't hear her attack you personally. Ever. Unless I totally missed something when I went back and reread the thread. She simply stated her opinion of WD, which she has every right to do.

Now, you have every right to ignore her. So ignore her. That doesn't take a sizeable rant. Just ignore her. You can even filter out her posts somehow, I think.



If you want your army to be popular then try writing some articles or some fiction. Paint up some cool minis and show them off.

I'll just point out that she's written a fan codex in the homebrew section. She also has written at least one sizeable fan fictions, albeit on other forums.

Actually, this comment surprised me. Did you just tell Melissia that she should be more vocal in her support for her Sisters?



Or you could just sit there doing nothing while your precious sisters die out. I personally hope they do. I thing the SOB was a half hearted attempt at attracting female gamers. They have no real appeal to me...or dare say....most 40k gamers. Might I also say....that there are far more people who buy WD than Witchhunters items....after all, your army is stuck at the back of the bus gathering dust, while WD is still going strong. Everyone keeps talking trash...but the FACT is.....WD is popular.....It is still making them money. It costs a veritable ton of money to produce a magazine. Especially a magazine that doesn't sell advertising space to other companies. If it weren't making money, it would have got the axe a long time ago.

Dude, chill out. No need to freak out and rant on about how sisters should be squatted and such just because someone on the internet said something that made you angry.

[harrybuttwhisker]

And how many of those opinions are well formed? when you ask people about white dwarf you have two questions.

1)What do you think of white dwarf?

2)when did you last read White dwarf?

The majority of the people in a GW store that says its crap usually haven't read a copy in the last two years, they have an opinion based on out of date impressions and a lot of people simple jump on the GW bashing band wagon in an attempt to be "the cool" customers.

As for Melissa, you say there is nothing for you in White Dwarf, thats fine and your personal opinion, it doesn't mean its a crap product for everyone does it now? Your entitled to your opinion but shouldn't attempt to browbeat others with it.

[R3con]

I'll quickly flip through a WD at my local hobby store, but honestly it feels like a commercial for the latest flavor of the month, and most of the data sheet's etc eventually get released on the website so why bother?

[Melissia]

DarkLink: Just because I'm unsatisfied with the current level of attention the Sisters get doesn't mean I'm selfish.

harry:

1: I typically don't. It's a catalog, I can get all the information on it off of the website for free, it provides nothing new.
2: I read the new White Dwarf when it comes out, I just don't buy it-- I read someone else's copy. Or rather, I skim through the pages looking bored.

And finally?


it doesn't mean its a crap product for everyone
Where did I claim it was? I'm fairly certain that other people like to pay GW to advertise to them rather than receive any real content. Some people also like to buy shirts that advertise for companies and products, too. I'm not one of them, and I can only judge from my point of view.

[Duke Rich]

I must admit, WD does seem to be a tad on the boring side unless the cover story is something I'm interested in, as that's what most of it will be.
There's been some good painting tips I've got from there also (however, I'm still to actually sit down and concentrate on getting faces right).
The battle reports are fun and enjoyable, however they could be better, the lists they use will almost always make people go "Ooooh look, that stuff looks really good!" so they buy more of their stock, which makes sense from a marketing point of view, but as a customer, I'd much rather if they pushed the new armies/releases to near breaking point (in a sense), in a similar way to how they would play them to test out any new rules.
However, I don't think it would be good to do that in such a way that they start showing off power player-esque armies, as, in my opinion, those are pointless, take them to the Grand Tournament, ok, but if everyone starts using them because it's in WD, I'm not gonna bother, I play to have fun not to win all the time, sure I may get a bit annoyed if my uber unit gets killed or I lose a game by a small bit, but if I had fun, who gives a damn?

Anyways, I got a bit side-tracked there, so, all in all, don't worry about WD that much, perhaps do something similar to what I do, wait for a friend/store member to read it, ask them about the bits that stand out the most, if it interests you, buy it! If not, then just don't worry about it.

[entendre_entendre]

And how many of those opinions are well formed? when you ask people about white dwarf you have two questions.

1)What do you think of white dwarf?

2)when did you last read White dwarf?

The majority of the people in a GW store that says its crap usually haven't read a copy in the last two years, they have an opinion based on out of date impressions and a lot of people simple jump on the GW bashing band wagon in an attempt to be "the cool" customers.

I would personally refute that, but then I may fall into that "minority" category. Either way I shall answer your questions.

1) Currently a waste of space. I have read WD since 2002 and noticed that the content in the "magazine" has fallen since around the removal of WD Canada and the conglomeration into WD NA. Some may disagree about the particular time WD took the plunge, but I think it was around here that I started to notice that the articles interested me less and less. My opinions, no on else's, and if they told me to side with them because "it's cool" I would remind them that we play with little plastic men, and nothing about this is really "cool" to the mainstream, so that's not going to work. As for the "cool customers", I am one lol. :rolleyes: Seriously though, most gamers (exceptions apply) are independent minded enough to make their own opinions, and (hopefully) have enough self-confidence to voice those opinions.

2) March 2010, although "read" may be loosely defined as looking at its cover and skimming D3+2 articles.

[BDub]

And I think it's a piece of **** that only works to exemplify the marinewank inherent in the hobby instead of trying to create something more diverse. I could count the number of White Dwarf or Citadel Journals which even MENTION the Sisters of Battle with one hand. And the only one that had any REAL substance was over eight years ago. Even the Imperial Guard or Orks, my other two armies, rarely get anything in this catalog that masquerades as a magazine, only getting anything around the time of their codex releases and then WHOOP, it's back to fellating Calgar again.

Dude, I was right there with you, until it became another whine festival about SOBs. Guess what, yes the magazine sucks because it ignores huge swathes of the hobby and gives no value for it's cost - but your not alone Sister.

[ColCorbane]

I actually quite like it, yes, it's not the beast it used to be and I do miss that and I'm talking about the issues between 100-200 but for what it is, an advertisement, it's quite a good read.

There's plenty of top notch photos of superb models and painting guides that you just don't get on the net. There's excellent tables in the battle reports, something else you don't get on the net. There's loads of info from the people who write the games and codexes.

I'm not saying it's perfect but considering it's less than a pint in London, I think it's quite good.

[fade_74]

Good job with the edits Melissia. You should have just left it all in there. If you are going to say something just say it. Don't go back and edit it to make yourself look better.

Oh....and I never called you greedy....not once. You had better go edit the heck outta that. You do know your edits don't work where I quoted them, right?

[Melissia]

Dude, I was right there with you, until it became another whine festival about SOBs. Guess what, yes the magazine sucks because it ignores huge swathes of the hobby and gives no value for it's cost - but your not alone Sister.

I never said it was. As I pointed out, there's twelve factions with codices in 40k. The vast majority of the time, only two of these factions get any attention in White Dwarf (SM and CSM). The rest of them-- Daemons, D.Eldar, Eldar, =][=, IG, Necs, Nids, Orks, Sororitas, and Tau, get often sporadic attention at best.


Good job with the edits Melissia. You should have just left it all in there. If you are going to say something just say it. Don't go back and edit it to make yourself look better.

Oh....and I never called you greedy....not once. You had better go edit the heck outta that. You do know your edits don't work where I quoted them, right?
Yes, I edited my post after the fact to remove profanity and hopefully make my objection to your post. Deal with it.

And yes, you did call me greedy. You may not have intended it, but that was the effect of what you said.

[Sangre]

...

[Shagrath]

we have such lovely flame wars on here...

[Walls]

WD makes them a ton of money through both purchases and advertising revenue. It would be INSANE for them to even consider getting rid of the magazine.

[joescalise]

they don't need to reinvent it, just go back to the way it was in the years past. I can remember when you used to get a small box set with your subscription and get special figs. it used to be about the hobby and stories and rules. Now crap.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, sometimes certain members get a little carried away. And calling out someone on uncalled-for comments usually doesn't help much, even when you're trying to diffuse the situation:o. Ah, well, c'est la vie.


DarkLink: I edited some things out of my posts to make them more acceptable. Such as my saying that his rant about me being greedy was... well, putrid bile as his response quotes.

Ah, ok, that explains it. I guess he's got a point there, then. Though I still stand by my opinion that he should have just proverbially walked away rather than starting a flame war.

I guess shame on both of you for not working out over PMs...:o?


Good job with the edits Melissia. You should have just left it all in there. If you are going to say something just say it. Don't go back and edit it to make yourself look better.


I'd say it's probably better to take back words spoken in anger. Since she openly admitted it above, I doubt that she posted it to insult you, then edited it out so you would look bad when you mentioned it.

[BuFFo]

Haven't bought an issue since September 2001.

I assume from all the responses I see here it hasn't changed to it's pre 3rd edition glory yet.

Like it ever will.

I say let it die. We have something called the Internet.

[Kahoolin]

Oh great, now I'm all cranky first thing in the morning because what was an adult discussion when I went to bed has degenerated AGAIN into 7 pages of flame interspersed with real comments. Great work guys, really top notch *thumbs up*

...Anyway. I reiterate my claim that if GW changes WD to give it deeper content it will tank, just like Dragon did for Hasbro. Yeah, it might be nice if WD was chock full of hobby goodness instead of being a glossy catalogue with a few light articles thrown in, but I really don't think that is a realistic possibility. GW is not a large company compared to the vast media conglomerates that own most of what you see in the newsagent. Things like Time and Cosmo are in trouble these days - the internet is killing them. There is not enough room for the depth of content people now expect in a monthly or weekly magazine, so light is the only way to go. I'm not happy about it, but I really think WD is better off as a catalogue/fake magazine. It does more for GW's sales that way.

I also don't see what's wrong with the do-it-yourself ethos that used to reign back in the 70s and 80s when all these games started out. People are always moaning about the manufacturers not giving them what they want. How about they give you a basic product and some minor suggestions, and if you want something more you use your imagination? :p

[Melissia]

Because getting people to accept houserules these days is a pain in the ***. Especially when you don't even have the models you need for the houserules.

[Kahoolin]

Exactly. So the problem we have here is, people want more informal, community-driven content in WD, but at the same time if you ever tried to use that content, the modern gaming community would start wailing like banshees.

Basically we all want to have our cake and eat it to.

[BuFFo]

How about they give you a basic product and some minor suggestions, and if you want something more you use your imagination? :p

Are you talking to a GW hobbyist pre 3rd edition or a modern GW customer post 3rd edition, because one of them has no imagination.

[Atrotos]

Because getting people to accept houserules these days is a pain in the ***. Especially when you don't even have the models you need for the houserules.

This.

If WD dared to include rules as it once did you could have a great reason for everyone to buy every issue. New rules would also mean more sales as it would broaden the variety of purchases players can make - especially for older armies that GW doesn't have the time or resources to update. Attendant single model releases would further augment this.

Some say WD discontinued rules in WD because it became a hassle to keep track of them (different rules in different issues). To this I would respond that a regular codex-style publication could include all of these at codex price every six months or so. E-publications would also help.

Spearhead will NOT solve this issue. Most likely it will be another useless expansion ignored for its lack of impact on "official" tournament style play. It will likely not contained rules for use in regular 40k. Still I will buy that issue if only to let GW know they're moving in the right direction with WD.

[Kahoolin]

If WD dared to include rules as it once did you could have a great reason for everyone to buy every issue. New rules would also mean more sales as it would broaden the variety of purchases players can make - especially for older armies that GW doesn't have the time or resources to update. Attendant single model releases would further augment this.

Some say GW discontinued rules in WD because it became a hassle to keep track of them (different rules in different issues). To this I would respond that a regular codex-style publication could include all of these at codex price every six months or so. E-publications would also help. .So, you mean like the old Chapter Approved books? I could see that.

[murrburger]

I just miss a lot of the fluff they had before. (Look at the IA articles) The rules were kind of a pain in the *** to keep track of, and I hated them for pickup games.I didn't mind them so much if the opponent told me in advance, and let me read the WD (At least an hour before the battle or something.)

Before, I didn't want to miss a single issue. Now, and maybe because I'm older, I barely even bother. There's no new information in there anymore.

[scadugenga]

What it really comes down to is that for $9.00 I can buy at least 1 paperback book.

Reading a book will consume far more time, and provide enjoyment for much longer than reading a magazine. That's *why* magazines are priced to be lower than books. Because the information and enjoyment is transitory at best.

At $6.00 I bought it mostly regularly. The brief stint at $7.00 had me buying it a couple times a year. (when I was particularly interested in the reported subject matter. At $9.00 I see no point in giving GW money for something that they haven't earned.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ok from someone who has every issue dating back to Issue Number 120 i think i have to say it HAS gone down hill.
Yes, i remember Thrud the Barbarian, he was a fun read. I remember when they put roleplaying games in there WD too.

Onthe topic of is it crap these days, i never subscribed but i enjoy the miniatures, the painting guides, the staged battle reports, and yes anything else they cram in there.
What i dont like is the amount of rubbish that only focuses on what they want us to buy, yes thats right we know they do.
Melissia is right, i actually have every WD that had SoB in them, in she is right, they get no attention from GW and as a marketing company they know crap how to sell there armies unless you play SM, CSM or IG.

I agree the rest, Nids, Necrons and WH or DH get any attention, zip, nathing. And its a shame that GW cant see that the best way to sell a army is market it. Guess in a few more years everyone is playing SM's in the future.

Sangre shut up, stop flaming Melissia like always, have something worthwhile to say then say it, stop your flaming crap.
Fade_74, SoB are NOT a throw away army, or should be in your opinion dropped. Wont happen ever. Why because i know atleast 5 players in my local area who do play them, just like me, and i can tell you they preffer waiting for there new codex than start just another bad attempt at a SM marketing tool.

I too have every resource of SoB that was ever made by GW, and its small compared to the juggernaught of SM's, but id never play Sm every again over my SoB army.

[Atrotos]

So, you mean like the old Chapter Approved books? I could see that.

It would have to be better than Chapter Approved used to be. CA felt like an afterthought - something that was added without any real conviction. I would like to see 4-5 pages in every White Dwarf that looked they were taken straight out of a 5th ed. codex. Something that felt genuinely official and was properly supported.


The rules were kind of a pain in the *** to keep track of, and I hated them for pickup games.I didn't mind them so much if the opponent told me in advance, and let me read the WD (At least an hour before the battle or something.)


In 5th edition even the addition of a single special character can drastically change the look and feel of an army. Thus you could have all the variety that the old Chapter Approved articles afforded with far fewer rules to remember and catalog. Because 5th ed. codecies are so much more versatile than their predecessors you have a much better foundation for additional entries.

[DarkLink]

What it really comes down to is that for $9.00 I can buy at least 1 paperback book.

Reading a book will consume far more time, and provide enjoyment for much longer than reading a magazine. That's *why* magazines are priced to be lower than books. Because the information and enjoyment is transitory at best.

At $6.00 I bought it mostly regularly. The brief stint at $7.00 had me buying it a couple times a year. (when I was particularly interested in the reported subject matter. At $9.00 I see no point in giving GW money for something that they haven't earned.

Good way of putting it. I've got quite a backlog of books I want to read, so that's something better to spend my money on.


It would have to be better than Chapter Approved used to be. CA felt like an afterthought - something that was added without any real conviction. I would like to see 4-5 pages in every White Dwarf that looked they were taken straight out of a 5th ed. codex. Something that felt genuinely official and was properly supported.



In 5th edition even the addition of a single special character can drastically change the look and feel of an army. Thus you could have all the variety that the old Chapter Approved articles afforded with far fewer rules to remember and catalog. Because 5th ed. codecies are so much more versatile than their predecessors you have a much better foundation for additional entries.

I agree with this. They could release a special character or unit for under supported armies or things like that to draw some interest. They could even go ahead and release the rules in pdf form a few months later. That way everyone would get access to some new rules, but also give an incentive to buy the magazine.

[Lord Azaghul]

What it really comes down to is that for $9.00 I can buy at least 1 paperback book.

Reading a book will consume far more time, and provide enjoyment for much longer than reading a magazine. That's *why* magazines are priced to be lower than books. Because the information and enjoyment is transitory at best.

At $6.00 I bought it mostly regularly. The brief stint at $7.00 had me buying it a couple times a year. (when I was particularly interested in the reported subject matter. At $9.00 I see no point in giving GW money for something that they haven't earned.


Agreed. 9$ is just too much money. I think 6$ would be very reasonable, but then again that's about the exact percentage price adjustment I think should be made on almost ALL gw products!

I wait until my store puts them on clearance. Like for .50$ a copy. Only then do I pick them up, and even then not all available issues.

[Kettu]

@Melissia

Oh, that one. I was thinking they appeared again after that one.

Come to think of it, was that the last time Sisters ever appeared in WD?

[Melissia]

That WAS the last time the Sisters appeared in White Dwarf.

[Polonius]

I think the current problem is that GW doesn't want anybody to feel like they "need" to buy WD to play and enjoy their games, which is nice, as it saves me $9 a month, but it means I also never buy it.

There are five main components to the GW hobby:
Playing the game
Building and converting
Painting
Background & Fluff
Collecting

Right now, WD is mostly collecting, with the Background and Gaming given reheated leftovers from web content, and the occaisional great master class for building and painting.

Part of the problem is that GW decided to stop publishing "official" rules in WD. That's fine, and it makes some sense, but there are lots of semi-official rules they could be publishing. I'd love to see any of the following in WED:

Apoc Datasheets (including legendary units, like death watch!)
Campaign rules
Tournament scenarios
Battle Missions
Or anything else to spice up 40k, even if permission only

The emphasis on collecting makes sense, but the problem with painting as their secondary focus makes less sense given the depth of materials out there online.

One of the coolest articles in the last 5 or so years for WD was the article on "low fantasy" armies they did. They talked about playing WFB with only the units that would appear in less magical environments. I think stuff like that is neat, as it's a way to play the game differently, appealing to veterans. For example, maybe an article on how to represent 40k armies near the end of a long war of attrition. So, smaller armies, built around troops, less support, but maybe veteran skills or something for the survivors? I'm thinking Ork Boys with Sharpshooters fighting Dire Avengers with counter attack, or something. Basically, give me some content!

I agree that GW is hamstrung by it's inability to compete with free web media in a lot of ways, which is why I think that they should push for content that is too costly for BOLS and other sites to do: things like tales of four gamers, really in depth army features, etc.

[harrybuttwhisker]

White Dwarf is a steaming pile of feces, and has been for a decade.

@melissa I believe this is where you suggested that WD is an awful product for everyone

[Melissia]

...

[harrybuttwhisker]

I did read your post and took from it than in your opinion WD was a pile of faeces, to paraphrase.

That is that it is your personal belief that WD is an awful product, that is a global statement of opinion designed to affect all. Would it be okay for someone to express a racist or anti-semitic position on the grounds that as its only there opinion it doesn't actually have a bearing on others. I think not.

I believe you have a lot of very valid points to make and are a keen hobbyist, something that is good to have around. However you do fail to convey your point in a way that looks to the interest of all, you have a tendency towards self interest and brow beating in your responses.

Sometimes what you intend may not come over well in type, try to remember this and work to improve the way you communicate, I would never ask anyone to change there opinions.

I hope we can continue to enjoy our vigorous discussions in future as I enjoy a sharing of opinions and unlike some others I do respect your opinion and input. I'll do my best to try to avoid the pointy stick poking in future and hopefully we can enjoy agreeing to disagree. :D

[RealGenius]

^^^ +1

[Melissia]

I stated, very clearly and succinctly, that I speak only for myself. So, when I say that White Dwarf crap, I am saying that is what it is to me.

If you cannot grasp that concept, then please just leave me alone.

[Lord Azaghul]

I hope we can continue to enjoy our vigorous discussions in future as I enjoy a sharing of opinions and unlike some others I do respect your opinion and input. I'll do my best to try to avoid the pointy stick poking in future and hopefully we can enjoy agreeing to disagree. :D

[unneccessary personal attack]

I've placed her on my ignore list (which is a very short list by the way), and its made my BOLS experience all the better for it. This means I don't read her comments unless I absolutely want to, its a wonderful feature.

[Polonius]

How do you ignore people? I think that 60% of all flame wars here are from one person, 30% from another, and only 10% from the field. Ignoring them would help.

Of course, I'm not entirely certain why they're still allowed on the site, but I guess that's not my call to make.

[Lord Azaghul]

How do you ignore people? I think that 60% of all flame wars here are from one person, 30% from another, and only 10% from the field. Ignoring them would help.

Of course, I'm not entirely certain why they're still allowed on the site, but I guess that's not my call to make.

In under you 'User Cp' tab.

Just click on that and find 'edit ignore list' add desired name.

A post made by someone on your ignore list will just show up as a "so and so is on you're ignore list, click to view post' and you just scroll on by!

[Jwolf]

Okay, no more editing for me in this thread. My next edit is just erasing the thread entirely. And at least a red card.

[BuFFo]

Okay, no more editing for me in this thread. My next edit is just erasing the thread entirely. And at least a red card.

Do you want me to sign your red card?

Yeah, it is just easy to put people on ignore. Makes life here fun!

[DarkLink]

Okay, no more editing for me in this thread. My next edit is just erasing the thread entirely. And at least a red card.

Go ahead. Anytime the words racist and/or anti-semitic pop up in an argument is probably a good indicator that it isn't worth continuing. Especially when it's not really relevant to the argument.

[scadugenga]

I agree that GW is hamstrung by it's inability to compete with free web media in a lot of ways, which is why I think that they should push for content that is too costly for BOLS and other sites to do: things like tales of four gamers, really in depth army features, etc.

The original iteration of ToFG was outstanding and really made sense, and got people to try and get into the hobby. The emphasis wasn't on points per month, you had $x.xx money per month to spend on your army. The article was as much about how to shop and spend effectively as it was about choosing forces and converting/painting. But then, GW actually had sales prices and things. (like 3 for 2 box sets, IIRC)

The latest version of ToFG was a travesty, pure and simple. A lack of spending ideas, no emphasis on building slowly, or converting, or finding bits, etc. It was "look what cool crap I did this month!" Blech.

It did nothing to forward the hobby, imo.

[Lerra]

I don't think WD can compete with third-party media for most aspects of the hobby, especially painting and modeling. It's so easy to find information on painting and modeling that is geared to your army, style, and ability. No print magazine can compete with the internet in that regard.

To me, the most valuable things in WD are rules, campaigns, and scenarios. Those are categories where GW has an advantage over the bloggers. If I was in charge of WD, I'd probably anger a lot of people ;) But I would run 4 issues a year geared toward the various fantasy games (WHFB, LotR, Mordheim, etc.) and 4 issues a year geared toward the SciFi games (40k, AI, Epic, BFG). I'd include detailed campaigns to run at home, updated rules for the neglected specialist games, etc. I'd start a hobby section on the GW website with links to recommended third-party articles for beginning and advanced painters, tutorials for each army, conversion ideas, etc. Or perhaps just ask for permission to publish those third-party articles on the GW site.

Blogs like BoLS make me wonder why GW doesn't promote their products as well as a bunch of unpaid hobbyists do. Compare the information on this blog (even just taking the hobby articles!) with the exclusive content in WD. GW could be doing so much more for the hobby if they wanted to. It costs almost nothing to publish an article online, and it can really drive sales.

[DarkLink]

Blogs like BoLS make me wonder why GW doesn't promote their products as well as a bunch of unpaid hobbyists do.

Because the unpaid hobbyists do a lot of promoting.

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
As far as White Dwarf goes, there is a hint in the small print.

It started off being 'Games Workshops monthly games supliment'

Then went to 'Games Workshops monthly games supliment and minatures cataloge'

It is now 'Games Worshops monthly minatures cataloge.

Its just a VERY low brow marketing pamphlet.

A complete waste of time and money IMO.

TTFN
Lanrak.

[chrixter]

Any other printed publications you think are a better example? maybe someone from GW will see them...

Wargames Illustrated is an excellent example of a magazine capable of both promoting their own game (FOW) as well as providing godo articles on other systems. Highly recommended.

[Grabula]

I buy the magazine as hobby tax. It is an overlong and bad catalog update.


what does that even mean? There's a basic principle behind being a good consumer here, and that's if you like something buy it, if you don't like it, don't buy it.

If people who don't like it stop buying it, maybe it might make a big enough impact to make a difference, who knows.

Either way, this hobby is expensive enough buying something you don't like under some misguided concept of 'paying in' just seems like a waste.

White Dwarfs for advertising pure and simple, they came out and said as much what, 5-6 years ago. That means new stuff is going to get front page, it's going to be stuffed with lots of 'buy our stuff' content. The battle reports are ok. Unlike Levitas, I find more round-listed battle reports interesting, since I can get all the uber list spam on the internet until my eyes bleed.

To be completely honest however, I gave up buying white dwarf years ago except on the rare occasion they have a good hobby article I want. Like most things GW it's too expensive, however unlike the models I buy, it's use isn't much more then an hour of browsing/reading.


Its just a VERY low brow marketing pamphlet

I'd actually have to say it's more "high brow", or more accurately, better than your average marketing pamphlet since it generally contains some useful info.