Tech: Chaos>Imperium?

[person person]

At first glance it seem that the Imperium is alot more advanced , but since the Imperium theinks certain advanced and useful tchnology like AI is heresy, and the Mecanicum is constantly just trying to find some ancient piece of STC to start manufacturing, shouldn't Chaos, with opportunity being one of its big ideas, be way more technologically advanced than the Imperium?

[FaultyVoodoo]

Well when squads of like 5 grey knights show up and single handedly dismantle entire dark mechanicus forge worlds and Titan STC's, theres not much they can do.

[gcsmith]

The main weakness of the Imperium and all races like that is no tech research, it seems the ad mech to busy to make new stuff, i mean cant they just re invent? oh wait they cut their imagination with machine, I mean they worhsip the machinespirit which is just their AI, i mean How come no over race has machine spirits.

[Fellend]

I don't think Chaos have much time to actually research, either good reserchers turns bad and defects with their fun new killing machine before being slaughtered by loyalists. Or already bad people take tech and infuse it with daemons.
Chaos want's killy stuff now, not research that will possibly reach results in a decade.
I see dow2 infront off me "Yeah they are thousand year old ubermarines, but they are to busy looking for things to slaughter to actually pay attention to their guard duties."

[Melissia]

Chaos in general does not lend itself to scientific advance.

[DarkLink]

I think Chaos is too busy pillaging, plundering and being emo to care much about science. At least the Imperium is looking for new technology, even if it won't innovate themselves because that would be heretical.


Well when squads of like 5 grey knights show up and single handedly dismantle entire dark mechanicus forge worlds and Titan STC's, theres not much they can do.

Yeah, we're awesome like that:D.

[Nabterayl]

Chaos does make technological advances, they just don't follow a logical progression. Remember the daemonculaba from Dead Sky, Black Sun? That's absolutely a technological advance.

Chaotic technological development follows the kind of logic where somebody will figure out how to give live birth to fully formed adult space marines in less time than it takes to gestate a normal human being, but it won't occur to anybody to build a freaking storm shield. It's ... chaotic that way ;)

[Fellend]

You can't murder, rape and pillage with a storm shield. "What's more killy than one sword? TWO SWORDS"

[Gooball]

And whats more killy than two swords?
Three HAMMERS!

[Herald of Nurgle]

And whats more killy than three hammers?
One Mephiston.

[Fellend]

And what's more killy than one Mephistion....?

[Herald of Nurgle]

Well, Titans?

Apparently nothing can kill Mephiston.

[Madness]

Vortex Grenade.

[DarkLink]

Fact:
Mephiston overcame the black rage when Arjac Foehammer decided he wanted a sidekick.

[RogueGarou]

Underneath Mephiston's flowing blonde locks are another pair of fangs. With a Force Sword clenched tightly in their grasp.

Mephiston once hit a Squat Ancestor Lord. The impact was so great that the Ancestor Lords ancestors felt the blow and died. This served two purposes: 1) the ancestors prevented the pain of that blow from reeling back through the entire Squat race and 2) erased the entire race from existence.

Mephiston won a staring contest with the Emperor.

One of Mephiston's annual vacations was serialized and toned down so as to be included in Imperial Records. It is now known as the Third War for Armageddon.

The only hand that beats Rogal Dorn's is Mephiston's.

Two Ork Waaagh's and Mephiston walk into a dark alley. Mephiston walks out.

But onto the topic at hand... Chaos and research or technological advancement. Two words: Fabius and Bile. It was never said that research and scientific achievement would be pretty. Or sane.

[eldargal]

I can't imagine some Chaos marines deciding to dedicate their time to research.

"I say Chaps, how about in lieu of going on this jolly old Black Crusade, we stay at home and think of some ways of making our weapons slightly better!"

"Absolutely spiffing idea, old bean."

Why make a storm shield when you can ram your sword through the back of a guardsmen skull and then run around using him as a puppet affectionately named 'Ol' Sword Tongue'.

[entendre_entendre]

As to the "no tech advancement" of chaos, I have one response: Defilers. Chaos wants killy things, so makes chaotic killy things. Now how much of this is advancement and how much is pure insane innovation is up for debate.

[DarkLink]

As to the "no tech advancement" of chaos, I have one response: Defilers. Chaos wants killy things, so makes chaotic killy things. Now how much of this is advancement and how much is pure insane innovation is up for debate.

Defilers aren't really a tech advancement, though. It's a Daemonic engine.

[Melissia]

Right. It's not a technological advance, because defilers simply would not work without the daemonic energies required.

[Nabterayl]

I don't think I buy that. The Astronomicon doesn't work if you don't feed it souls, but I'd count it as still technology. An undefined subset of orky gear wouldn't work without psychic energy, but surely that is still technology as well. Ditto with an undefined subset of eldar gear, and even Imperial gear (psychic hoods, anyone?).

Plenty of things in this universe need a psychic entity, or psychic energy, to make them work. I don't think that suddenly makes them not-technology.

[Sitnam]

Same goes for tank without gasoline, bolters without magazines, lasguns without powerpacks, etc. I think daemonic engines are surely a sign of technological advancement. The warp energy is just their power source. Vraks 3 mentioned that many of the daemon engines were recent appearances, which implies that Chaos advances their technology just as the Imperium does.

I think the two sides are about even in technological advancement. Whereas the ignorance of the Imperium prevents great advancement, the fervent fanatiscm to their gods cause (Change, war, indulgence, or disease) limits them to making machines only for thos purposes. And the new Imperial Guard codex makes mention that many of the vehicles are recent additions to Imperial inventories. The Space Marines also have a history of adapting technology (Razorbacks and Land Raider Helios are good examples.)

[Nabterayl]

To get back to the OP's point, I don't think Chaos worship really takes off the critical blinkers that get in the way of technological research. The critical research bottleneck in the 41st millennium (at least among humans and human-derived subspecies) is the belief that during the Dark Age of Technology mankind knew everything there is to know. That mistaken belief is the real problem. Technological research does take place, but the people who undertake it think that they're rediscovering knowledge that was already known once upon a time, and are obsessed with demonstrating that. This techno-archaeological worldview means that it simply wouldn't occur to most educated people to undertake serious research unless they have reason to believe that the object of that research was already once known.

Less educated people might stumble into a more modern viewpoint, but they're not the ones who are going to be doing any serious advancement. Imagine trying to build CERN in a world where every single person on the planet who even knew basic algebra, let alone calculus or high-level physics, was convinced that the very idea of CERN was an abomination because they had no evidence that CERN had ever been built in the past. It would be all well and good if some ignorant yokel who could barely do four-function arithmetic believed differently, but good luck leveraging the yokel's optimism into a functioning particle accelerator. That's essentially the state of research in the Imperium.

And the trouble with the Dark Mechanicus is that they don't really differ from the Adeptus Mechanicus on this crucial point of doctrine. Yes, they can do things that mankind didn't do in the Dark Age of Technology; they know things that mankind didn't know in the Dark Age of Technology. But they do, and know, blasphemous things. The DarkMech isn't sitting around in the Eye of Terror going, "Oh thank Tzeentch, now we know that knowledge is not finite and there never was any glorious past age where we knew everything there is to know." They're sitting around going, "We still think knowledge is finite, and we still think that once upon a time mankind knew everything there is to know, except for dark, Chaotic knowledge - thank Tzeentch we can delve into this one realm of knowledge that was previously unexplored."

Which is why pretty much every technological advancement that comes out of the Eye of Terror involves daemons or daemonic energy in some way. It's all that occurs to the DarkMech to even try.

[DarkLink]

Well, I guess our point is that if the admech suddenly started worshipping chaos, they'd get defilers too. It's adding a daemon to existing tech that makes a defiler, not inventing a new technology that suddenly has a daemon in it, really.

[Sitnam]

Well, I guess our point is that if the admech suddenly started worshipping chaos, they'd get defilers too. It's adding a daemon to existing tech that makes a defiler, not inventing a new technology that suddenly has a daemon in it, really.

But this is still technological advancement. They are crafting current technology and combining it with a alternative pilot/fuel system. They are adpanting and upgrading, which is jsut as important as inventing.

[Nabterayl]

You may be giving Defilers short shrift, DarkLink. Various Chaos researchers have certainly figured out how to do things that the Adeptus Mechanicus hasn't (the daemonculaba spring again to mind). It may be that even the mechanical parts of a Defiler are a technological advance. After all, when's the last time the Imperium fielded a walker that was (i) fleet, (ii) had two auxiliary weapons, (iii) had two DCCWs and (iv) had a battle cannon? However controlled and powered, that's an impressive piece of machinery.

[Fellend]

Yes but still not technological advancement, it's the same technology with added daemon. If i send let my tv become possessed it's not a new machine, it's just a possessed tv. Sure it can now turn itself on and off by it's own will and occasionally devour any future offspring which is all pretty cool new features, (not very useful perhaps but still)
This however doesn't make it into new technology, this just adds a function to an already existing piece of technology. The same as attaching a grenadelauncher to an assault rifle. If they had actually invented the grenade launcher (daemon) but they did not. They simply attached him.

The birthingchamber is a good example of chaos lacking research actually. we can't actually make space marines so we throw dead ones into daemonic birthing chambers with stolen geneseed and hope that they come out somewhat space mariney. Doesn't scream technological supremacy, it's more of a hotwiring solution.

Fabius Bile on the other hand is probably one of the few that has made technological advancements (or at least biochemical) but once again he fails as often as he succeedes, which is okay if you are chaos but would you really consider a machine that fails that often advancement?

oooh wait...I use windows... guess i defeated my own point.

[Nabterayl]

I think we may be using different definitions of "technological advancement." It's true that even very good Chaos tech is not better than what the Imperium has in every way. But it is interesting that, within the very narrow field of technology powered by psychic entities native to the Warp, genuine research seems to be taking place. The fact that the daemonculaba worked at all is pretty impressive, given that they were essentially in the prototype stage when Captain Ventris killed them.

[Xas]

well it depends on your fiew of things.

if the deviler is nothing "new" to you then there is absolutely NOTHING new in any of the races but maybe tau.

in my eyes the imperium does advance, albeit slowly with things like refitted baneblade chassis (so those forgeworlds that do NOT own a STC to the original cannon layout can also produce superheavy tanks. apparently the hull is not the problem but the cannons), the new landraiders (well just slap other guns tot he same chassi but if it works...) and new rhino chassi mounted weapons (razorback and whirlwind are both new since the heresy).

at the same time however chaos is further advanced by useing the immaterium to fuel and controll their machines. not calling that technical advancement is like saying eldar have no tech at all... why? because all their stuff is grown from phantom crystall and not forged like good old steel ;)

[Fellend]

Well I think it's two different things.
Eldar technology is a piece of machinery that uses the eldars natural psychic ability to function of improves said ability
Whereas Chaos let's a living entity possess a unit. It's not really technology, it's just the Daemon taking the form of a tank or a bolter instead of a big fleshy thingy. After all there is no such thing as a "defiler" Each and every Defiler is a Daemon with it's own name. He's probably called Snargash the Mauler or something like it.

Basically, Daemon(technology) is just Daemons taking new and interesting shapes. No different from Possessed marines and we wouldn't call them technology.

[Old_Paladin]

I just have to say that the comment on taking two old technologies and having them work together doesn't make something new, is a completely ignorant worldview.

The steam engine is around twenty-five hundred years old, the wheel is older then that; however, when the two where eventually put together, no one said " *yawn* I don't know why people think this Train thingy is a great leap forward, the parts have been around for thousands of years."

[Lord Azaghul]

Kinda reminds me of a thought I had while reading 'Armour of Contempt'.

Where/how does Chaos find the time or build ornate decorations/icons (be them blasphemous ones) on all their weapons, buildings, ships ect...

It just strikes me as odd that 'artistians' for whatever reason thrive under 'chaos'.

I understand that they have their dedicated specialist: most of the books show CSM aren't the most innovative creatures in the verse. And there are cultural specialist, agricultural, and everything in between, to see to the day-to-day of chaos living (or dying), but the impetus of Chaos is 'corruption', but they seem to spend so much time making there weapons 'pretty'! Just seems a bit at odds with it self.

[Nabterayl]

Well, some of that is probably the limitations of visual media. Every description I've ever read of Chaos iconography has it defying the laws of physics, or at least making people feel physically ill just from the sense of wrongness that people get from looking at it. And some of it is that all that "decoration" is typically mocking or defacing Imperial iconography.

That said, I've had a personal theory ever since my friends first explained the Ruinous Powers to me in my pre-Warhammer days, and it goes like this:

The Ruinous Powers are full of it.

I'm pretty sure that Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh aren't actually the embodiments, essences or all-powerful controllers of anything except themselves. They may have been birthed by hope, despair, rage, and self-gratification, but they themselves are just dudes. They aren't even the embodiment of Chaos, the concept - they're just dudes. Dudes with pretty good propaganda machines, but when you get past the smoke and mirrors, they're way too internally consistent to be anything else. Worshiping the Ruinous Powers is just changing religions; nothing inherently "chaotic" about it.

That's my personal theory, anyway. Which is another way of thinking about all the time "Chaos" personnel spend on decoration.

[Fellend]

I just have to say that the comment on taking two old technologies and having them work together doesn't make something new, is a completely ignorant worldview.

The steam engine is around twenty-five hundred years old, the wheel is older then that; however, when the two where eventually put together, no one said " *yawn* I don't know why people think this Train thingy is a great leap forward, the parts have been around for thousands of years."


Well if one of them was a living being, the living being would probably go and say "well duuuuh I could have told you I could do that"
It's not really technology to possess something, it's more of magic or arcane art. Warpfire bolters used by Thousand sons could be seen as chaos technology because it's actually an invention (as far as I know) not just a deamon

Or as my friend just put it "well if you let a daemon possess your garbage can so that it actually eats the garbage you haven't really invented anything. You've just placed a hungry demon in a garbage can. It's more logistics than technology"

[Melissia]

Actually, the TRUE technologically progressive and advanced faction in 40k is, oddly enough, Orks.

[Fellend]

I hate to agree with you, but you are probably right, that and Tau.

[Nabterayl]

Orks are completely the highest-tech race in the universe. I'd like to see the tau, eldar or necrons build a working interstellar starship in a cave with a box of scraps.

[Melissia]

They also have the best teleporter technology, tractor beam technology, and shield technology. Better than the Necrons, AFAIK.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure I would say they have the "best" shield technology. Kustom force fields are certainly a marvel of portability given how much they can cover, but their power fields are pretty clearly inferior to void shields, and as far as I know the orks have nothing that compares to the shields built into a rosarius or a storm shield. So I think when it comes to shields it's a question of orks being superior in some sub-fields and inferior in others.

[Melissia]

Well, I was generally referring to ship-based shields. The reason ORks have such powerful shields is so that they can ram an enemy ship successfully (and either destroy it or board it) or make landfall on a planet with a heavily shielded Rok.

[DarkLink]

I think we may be using different definitions of "technological advancement." It's true that even very good Chaos tech is not better than what the Imperium has in every way. But it is interesting that, within the very narrow field of technology powered by psychic entities native to the Warp, genuine research seems to be taking place. The fact that the daemonculaba worked at all is pretty impressive, given that they were essentially in the prototype stage when Captain Ventris killed them.

Slightly, I guess. The difference in the level of technology of a defiler and dreadnought isn't really significant*. Basically, it's more like chaos took a car, and added a daemon to help push it. The car is still a car, albeit a different brand. They just found a non-technological means of enhancing it.

*Well, maybe it is, when you're in a universe when the Imperium doesn't seem to be able to actually invent anything, just find new (old) designed laying around.

[Ole]

Hum, I'd rather compare that to changing the engine of the car. Basically you replace the old gasoline engine with a diesel engine - which you just developed. The chassis may be the same, but the means of powering it are certainly different. If that switch is actually an improvement, well that's another matter

[Melissia]

which you just developed

No. The CSMs did not create daemons. Daemons existed long before CSMs existed. From the very dawn of senitent life in the 40k universe, daemons existed. Trying to claim that CSMs "developed" daemons is laughably ludicrous.

A better comparison is finding a better engine and replacing the engine in your car with the better engine. Except the better engine has a mind of its own and wants to kill you.

[Duke]

Well withthat said m, chaos should have potms, but they could call it potds (power of the daemonic spirit)

on of my favourote aspects of 40k Is the completly ludicrious stance they have taken towards tech.

[Ole]

No. The CSMs did not create daemons. Daemons existed long before CSMs existed. From the very dawn of senitent life in the 40k universe, daemons existed. Trying to claim that CSMs "developed" daemons is laughably ludicrous.

A better comparison is finding a better engine and replacing the engine in your car with the better engine. Except the better engine has a mind of its own and wants to kill you.

You're of course right, but binding the demons into the machine seems to be a relativly new concept to me - of course I could be wrong there - I was never much interested in the fluff regarding daemons.

[Melissia]

Binding daemons to machines wasn't invented by the CSMs. Binding daemons to inanimate objects has long been a staple of chaos worship, and the CSMs weren't even the first to apply this concept to machines, either-- that would probably have happened during the Iron Men wars in the Dark Age of Technology, if not much, much earlier.

[Nabterayl]

You sure about that, Mel? The Iron Men weren't daemon-powered, they were just regular old AI.

[Melissia]

But we know so little about the time period that it's easy to speculate that it was very possible to have happened; after all, from what I can tell, chaos worship wasn't likely suppressed.

And this is only talking about HUMAN history... 40k galaxy is old indeed, and the Chaos Gods are nearly as old; Chaos worshippers likely long ago invented the idea of daemon-possessed machines, they just weren't HUMAN chaos worshippers. It may have been "lost" for a time, to us mortals, but the Daemons remembered it, for they are (mostly) immortal. And since we're talking about Chaos, here, it probably wasn't found again, but rather it was gifted to the CSMs. Which is not technological advance.

[Madness]

Funny, just as it's false that CSM created daemons, it's also fals ethat orks have technology. Old ones had technology and they hardcoded it into the Orks' dna.

Orks might create stuff from scraps. Eldar create stuff out of thin air. Thin air.

[Melissia]

Actually no. Orks do invent new things, technologies which they had never used before. It's explicitly stated that they do so in their codex, with the biggest example given being Ork titans.

[Madness]

I mostly go by the background from gorkamorka, and it was stated there that the brainboyz created oddboyz with "preloaded" abilities, to the point that the first Mek spawned in a new colonization cycle (IE, no previous contacts with ork technology) will eventually create the same slugga that a Mek on the other side of the galaxy created (more or less).

You're suggesting they retconned into "orks technology is actually advancing"?

[Melissia]

Yes. IIRC (I don't have it with me at this exact moment), the codex stated that the first Ork Titan was actually created by a Mekboy upon seeing an Imperial Warhound Titan during the Great Crusade. That Ork Titan was so successful and iconic, digging deep into their subconscious ideas about Gork and Mork, that it very quickly spread throughout Ork culture and now the building of an Ork Titan is the sign that a WAAAGH! has become a true threat.

[Fellend]

Which would be technological advancement. But has Eldar really done anything new lately? Seems like they've decided that they've already reached perfection and there's no way to improve anything.
(One would think longer range on their guns would be a good idea)

But to jump back to the Chaos discussion. I think they are just to lazy and powerhungry (...and blood crazy) to actually advance anything. Why spend ages on improving a bolter when you can just ask your gods to do it. Why develop a new killing machine when the you can just take the killiest (I love orkish) machine you find and let an even killier daemon possess it?

[Madness]

But it also says (first pages of the codex) that the orks don't learn, they just mature, and with maturity they access memories they have. Now, what goes in the conscious side of an ork is irrelevant, but it is stated that they don't go through a process of education in specific fields, they "just know".

I'd speculate that the knowledge doesn't just limit to the "know how" but also the "know why", for instance I doubt that a Mek would build a gun so large that no vehicle was able to carry it. And therefore it would be a waste of time and resources to build a Gargant if the scale of the fight didn't justify it.

Now this has deep implications, basically what I'm saying is that orks are consciously dumb but subconsciously genial, and that most of the thinky stuff is inherited from the brain boyz.

Back on topic, I think that Chaos does have its share of advancement, there IS a dark mechanicus and we know for sure that Fabius Bile is tinkering with stuff most of the time, it's just that it's hard to depict in a Codex, since there's very little centralized organization. Bottomline: chaos makes new stuff, but is unable to mass produce it asa far as I can guess.

[Melissia]

for instance I doubt that a Mek would build a gun so large that no vehicle was able to carry it.

... then you don't know Orks very well...


Ork Mekboys are always experimenting, trying new things out. They create new things, try to figure out new ways to help Orks do what Orks do best.

[Madness]

Consciously? Yes. But for some reason they always end up inventing a shokk attack gun, or a zzap gun, or a killa kan...

[Melissia]

No they don't. In fact, even the term "shoota" is a wildly generic term for an Ork basic weapon . A Shoota can be anything from a semi-auto shotgun, to a bolter-like weapon, to a fully automatic high caliber machinegun, to Ork variants of lasguns and hellguns, to weirder weapons besides. The reason that Orks are so limited in tabletop is out of necessity for simplicity. "Killa Kan" isn't one specific diagram, it's a category of walkers too small to fit an Ork into. A "Zzap gun" isn't a specific type of weapon, but a category of unreliable (like much Ork tech) energy weapons which can produce startling results, but are risky to the user. And I guarentee you taht no two Shokk Attack Guns are alike; for that matter, they probably don't all even operate on the exact same principles, and each one is unique to the Mek that built it.

[Madness]

That is gross speculation. Acceptable probably, but still speculation. There are many illustrations that depict "standard" features in ork weaponry.

One thing is a kustom mega blasta, another is a slugga. A slugga is almost always a projectile weapon. You don't see magnetic rail acceleration sluggas, you don't see laser sluggas, you don't see plasma-based sluggas, you don't see monofilament sluggas.

Just like all orkish grenades are shaped like stikkbombz.
It's hardcoded.
And it's clearly stated.

I can see how we could go about stretching that situation, and how it is plausible, but even then, it's stated explicitly that Orks' technology is based on "blueprints" of the Brainboyz one, written in the Orks' dna.

And as long as they don't challenge that statement, Orks will only be able to build stuff that the Brainboyz already knew how to build, if it looks new, it's just because they never had the necessity for it before, or were otherwise unable to tap into that (pre-owned) knowledge.

[Melissia]

That is gross speculation.
No it's not... I recall in the past it was outright stated that no two shootas were exactly alike, for instance, and I recall the passage about Ork shootas being a category of weapons coming from a either a supplemental or a White Dwarf (Though for the life of me I can't remember which), and Dark Heresy: Creatures Anathema states that shoota is a "catch-all term for a variety of short- to mid-range Ork firearms, inevitably capable of at least burst fire".

[Madness]

And from that you deduced that there are shootas that are not based on a projectile expelled by an explosion? And that's not speculating?

[Melissia]

Lasguns are also considered firearms in DH, as "firearm" is itself a wide category. Mind you, lasguns don't actually fire lasers, they fire "lasbolts"...

[Madness]

And that doesn't mean that shootas use all the possible mechanics of firearms, which in turn doesn't mean that Orks don't have a slight hint of standardization, which in turn doesn't mean that Orks actually create something the Brainboyz didn't mean them to.

On the contrary, we have evidence of the opposite.

[Nabterayl]

Madness, you aren't seriously suggesting that the ork designs we see are what the Old Ones gave to their genetically engineered super-soldiers to fight the necrons with, are you? I mean, just look at their gear, it's ramshackle as hell. The same race that turned the eldar into a bio-weapon gave their other bio-weapon non-standardized trukks and buggies to fight with?

You're right that we have sources suggesting that certain orks just know how to build things, but the actual things they build forecloses the possibility that meks are genetic STCs, in my opinion. If that were so then (a) we wouldn't see as much variation as we do among individual pieces of ork gear and (b) the actual gear would be better. I think the evidence better fits the hypothesis that orks were hard-coded with a certain technological know-how, and the reason all ork technology ends up being generally the same is because the ork imagination is fairly limited in breadth (though not in depth). Orks don't come with a pre-loaded list of machines that they eventually remember how to build. They come with a pre-loaded set of technological skills.

Besides, Mel's right about the gargants. Page 17 of the ork codex clearly states that the first gargant was created by a mek named Ushbek, who was inspired after seeing an Imperial titan. I note also page 34 of the ork codex, which states that ork technology "has evolved in a ramshackle and exploratory way."

[Madness]

I think that they make do with what they have, Orks were probably conceived as a unit able to survive in any situation, and any situation doesn't usually mean refined materials, so yes, crude but effective stuff is the exact answer I would have expected from Old Ones.

About the strict models vs. generic capacities, I think that it's a moot point, not being able to investigate in complex chemistry outside of some basic applications means they will never create stuff like the "genesis device" Eldar use to create Maiden Worlds. Orks have limited skills and therefore go along a standard path, not straying too far from it.

Again, I'm sure that the Ushbek and everyone else thought he was actually inventing something, but that would mean the Old Ones decided that Orks wouldn't need the know how to create a Titanic machine and therefore Orks had to invent one. Which is a pretty dumb thing for such a smart race.

Instead, the Occam razor principle forces me to think that Orks always had the knowledge, and the necessity brought said knowledge to surface.

That might appear as "invention" or "evolution", but the most conservative deduction is that it's just necessity-driven data retrieval. Funny how a conservative approach favours design over evolution, heh.

And by that I don't mean that every single detail of every single slugga out there is according to a specific "mark" inside the Orks genetic knowledge (although it might be possible), but the fundamentals are.

[Nabterayl]

I think that they make do with what they have, Orks were probably conceived as a unit able to survive in any situation, and any situation doesn't usually mean refined materials, so yes, crude but effective stuff is the exact answer I would have expected from Old Ones.

Okay, but think that through. What you just described is an STC - how to build a given machine (e.g., a Rhino) no matter what your starting tools and raw materials are. That's not what we see orks doing. What orks do is evaluate their starting tools and raw materials and then figure out how to build an armored fighting vehicle, whose actual specifications will vary depending on the tools and raw materials available and the personalities involved. I don't doubt that the Old Ones intended the orks to be able to build a functional army in a cave with a box of scraps, but the way they appear to have done that is give the orks the ability to improvise. It's not like the Old Ones assigned a model number to every single trukk that any mek has ever or will ever build, after all.

[Melissia]

Basically, the Orks are almost the exact opposite of the Imperium in terms of how their technology is crafted and developed.

[Madness]

You're depicting it in a much less instinctive and much more rational way than I read it (take the tale of the Mek that dismantled a wagon to create dreads).

It's not really an evaluation as much as it is an urge. And yes I'm sure that Orks have a somewhat extensive knowledge, but in the end, they always make stuff with exhausts, that burn some kinda fuel (making fumes in the process) and whatnot. You don't see many energy efficient, fuel cell, aerodynamic, heavily hover-based ork armies.

So it's not really improvisation but more of a functional knowledge of how to get from an unknown point to the usual stuff they always seem able to patch up with anything they run into. The kind of knowledge that lets you nuke a planet, but doesn't tell you if said planet is round or flat.

By the way, consider how strictly self-regulating is the society, for instance, no orks is spawned unless food is available, that probably means that no Mek pops out until workable materials are found. This is speculation, but of the kinda elegant type, I think.

[Melissia]

You're depicting it in a much less instinctive and much more rational way than I read it (take the tale of the Mek that dismantled a wagon to create dreads).
I think you are not comprehending the definitions of instinctive, intuitive, and innate, all of which are words used to describe a Mekboy's understanding of physics, mechanics, and etc.

The Mekboy does not have the idea of a trukk coded into their genes; what they have coded into their genes is an intuitive understanding of the laws of physics, chemistry, and mechanics, and a desire to build things. Naturally, what would they build? Something that will get a bunch of Boyz, including themselves, from point A, where there is no fighting, to point B, where there si fighting, as fast as possible. Naturally, being an Ork, they'd also want to strap a loud, shooty gun on top of it.

THAT is how an Ork builds things. They invent everything on the fly, they have no standard ANYTHING.

[Madness]

Melissia, you're taking opinions and passing them off as facts.

Nowhere it says that Orks have any understanding of how physics, mechanics, chemistry, etc... works. Case in point? Red ones go faster.
I think that instead they know how to build a crude engine, or a bunch of different crude engines, how to work a half decent transmission, how to armor a chassis and so on. Functional innate concepts as opposed as true understanding of how stuff actually works.

Just like a predator knows that it doesn't have to approach its prey with the wind behind his back, without having to know how the meteorology of winds work. They just know, like an entire people of idiots savants, that can do stuff that's incredibly complex without being able to do the same exact things for a different purpose.

[Melissia]

Melissia, you're taking opinions and passing them off as facts.

Nowhere it says that Orks have any understanding of how physics, mechanics, chemistry, etc....

Except Codex: Orks.

Oddboyz (which Mekboyz and Doks are a part of) possess an "innate understanding of their field of expertise", to quote the codex directly. In this sense, Mekboyz have an innate, inborn understanding of mechanics, which also entails some physics and chemistry due to the nature of mechanics, as well as electronics. Similarly, Doks innately understand the Orkoid physiology, and the chemistry involved in it.

[Madness]

Step 1: Decide what you want to read in a sentence.
Step 2: Read said sentence.
Step 3: Twist it until you can prove it.

*facepalm*

Yes, oddboyz have an innate understanding of their field of expertise, no, that doesn't mean they grasp the theoretical grounds upon which said field lies. They can build/fix/handle stuff (runtherdz have weird social skills), that doesn't mean they comprehend what they are doing in any extent, in fact there's literature proving that they just "follow the flow" and give silly names to things they built without actually knowing how they function (p90 is a funny example).

[Melissia]

Step 1: Decide what you want to read in a sentence.
Step 2: Read said sentence.
Step 3: Twist it until you can prove it.

Yes, that is what you're doing isn't it, Madness? How mature of you to admit your own faults, quite good of you! Yes, I know you were accusing me of that, but quite frankly I'm thinking it applies better to you. I'm reading directly from the codex, while you're reading from outdated material.

Mekboyz have an innate understanding of their field of expertise: mechanics. Furthermore, they are constantly tinkering and experimenting (as stated further down on the same page). This is canon. This is a part of what makes a Mekboy different from a normal Ork Boy. This is why Ork technology is so ramshackle and inconsistent, so unreliable. EVERYTHING an Ork builds is custom-made, from the grot blasters and sluggaz, to the Gargants and Stompas. While indeed your ideas on Orks might have been correct at one point in time, as of the latest Ork codex they are not.

edit: Also, I'm asking a mod to move this and the other Ork related posts into a new thread...

[Madness]

Let me rephrase. The statement you quoted is a very broad one, and can be interpreted in any number of ways, and adds nothing that wasn't already in the discussion.

Yes, Orks build everything from scratch. That doesn't mean that they reinvent the wheel every time, or, to be more precise, that they independently invent the wheel.

[Melissia]

ANd yet, your argument conflicts with the stated nature of Ork equipment (huge variety of wildly different types in one general category), mine does not. Your argument conflicts with the newer fluff (they experiment and learn and get better and get new ideas), mine does not. Your argument conflicts with the very IDEA of Orks (Orks wielding standard-issue equipment?), mine does not.

I'm just reading the fluff for how it is stated. Mekboys have an innate understanding of their field of expertise... mechanics. That's why they're called Mekboys. They are the greasy Orks on a roller in a garage underneath some dirty old ramshackle custom-built trukk, tuning the engine in order to make it faster. They are the Orks that get the idea "what if I built my OWN titan?" and then went and did that without any real clue about what actually makes a titan, all they know it's big, it's stompy, and it's killy, and they need to make it all of those things. They're the kind of Orks that say "that's a nice tank, but it needs more killy" and so they made a wrecking ball and crane and strapped it on top. They experiment, learn new things, develop their own personal styles, and become more and more skilled as life goes on, through experience, not genes.

They don't have wrecking ball on top of tank ingrained into their genes. They don't have Gargants ingrained into their genes (Orks didn't even HAVE Gargants until relatively recently in galactic history). They don't have engine tuning ingrained into their genes. What they have is an understanding of how things work, and a desire to make things that kill people and move really fast.

[Ferrett]

In terms of scientific history, Orks are Di vinci - every single time they make an item. Look at the GorkaMorka fluff if you doubt. The fact that it wasn't just made, that it was rebuilt continuously means that its not even slightly ingrained into them a design for that kind of thing. They just.... do. The onl;y problem they lack to your version of intelligence is communication. If they explained what they did to you, you wouldn't understand it. Much like if I started calling gravity God.
God made the ball drop and it will keep getting faster if it doesn't hit anything according to God's will. Am I still describing gravity, sure. Do you understand that concept as what I said - probably not.

[Madness]

And somehow they all end up with tracked/wheeled combustion-powered vehicles with huge exhausts shooting projectiles with black powder equivalents called with the same name ...

Evolution happens when you improve on a current base, but orks don't have a current base, since the knowledge is not spread, it's innate. How can thousands of meks on the opposite parts of the galaxy decide to build a gargant in the shape of gork/mork without any form of communication? It HAS to be in the ONLY link they have, their genes. And it's stated explicitly on page 7 that the knowledge is in their genes. And so is their sense of style and kultur.

They DO have a wrecking ball in their genes, they DO have a gargant in their genes, they DO have every bit of cultural, technological and behavioural written in their genes.

How else could creatures never having any sort of contact end up creating the same exact template of society, using the same exact names for the things they create, with the same exact language, dividing in those same exact clans with the same exact names, chanting the same exact things, reciting the same exact proverbs, with the same exact system of belief?

How?

It must be, as it is explicitly written, in their genes.

So their genes control every single aspect of their life, EXCEPT the kind of weaponry they create. No sir, that is pure ingenuity. That is the only bit of free will orks have. They may be hardcoded to believe in the same god, in entertaining themselves with the same sports, in believing that blue is a lucky color. But believing that they ALSO have a predetermined technology path is preposterous!

How DARE you accuse Orks of not inventing their stuff. SHAME on you! SHAME I SAY!

If I roll my eyes any harder there's the odd chance of me opening a wormhole in the warp. Two actually.

[Melissia]

And somehow they all end up with tracked/wheeled combustion-powered vehicles with huge exhausts shooting projectiles with black powder equivalents called with the same name ...
You're reading far too much into the models then.

As for the rest of your... post. I'll respond to that later...

[Bigred]

If you want to start a new Ork technology thread I can move stuff over to it, but this one has kinda gotten off into the weeds a bit...

[DarkLink]

If you want to start a new Ork technology thread I can move stuff over to it, but this one has kinda gotten off into the weeds a bit...

At least we know where Melissia's getting all of her posts, now. That's what, 3 solid pages of back and forth between them?

[Ferrett]

Don't knock the lass, she's correct.

[Old_Paladin]

Not to hi-jack the thread further (or maybe just call it a 'technologies of the 40k universe' thread).

Madness: your idea of Ork tech is starting to get a little far fetched.
Orks cannot have had Gargants and kulture hardward that much; otherwise those things actually COULDN"T exist.
Gargants only started being built AFTER orks saw imperial titans; the bloodaxe clan copied imperial army style and attitude.

What orks have is a genetic ability to apply things that they don't know conciously; and a limited genetic memory. They can build a steam engine, even if they don't understand that super-heated water turns into a gas, which by way of expantion causes pressure.


Also, if you're going to ask Mel to provide quotes on her explanations; I'd love to see where you have proof that orks tell the same fireside stories to eachother, 'cuz I've never heard of that ever.
And orks aren't born with the same culture; they are Feral Orks, living primitive lives if there isn't a major Waaagh or clan around to influence them. An ork might dream of flight, or running the fastest; but he wouldn't call himself a 'speed freak' or an 'evil sun' until he met actual members and understood that's where he belonged.

[Melissia]

I AM providing quotes. From the most recent Codex: Orks, and therefor the most recent canon. He isn't.

[Nabterayl]

I repent of my thread-hijacking ways (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=69582#post69582).

[Fellend]

Might as well continue here as there'll probably be no more chaos talk. But honestly if they had everything hardcoded wouldn't they have built Stompas from the start? And not 10 000 years later? Or did it take 10 000 years and several encounters with titans for the genetic memory to suddenly come play?

Also there's more evidence of unique examples of ork technology, like the mekboy that liked helicopters and decided that a stompa with helipads would be a good idea.
The very fact that feral orks exists also seems to imply that they don't just start building things, with no real reference they stick to swords, spears and basic tools. But once they encounter killier stuff someone starts to want these killy things and starts producing them (or steal them and "improve" them)

I don't remember exactly how far back but in some of the old books it was often mentioned that ork technology doesn't even work, there's no reason for a walker to ever be able to walk, yet it does because the ork believes that it will. Just like they believe that red ones go faster.

And would you really consider the suicidal nature of their jumppacks to be the genial hardcoded machine from the creators of the universe? No, they saw a rocket and saw that it went fast so they strapped it onto the back of an Ork.

[Old_Paladin]

I AM providing quotes. From the most recent Codex: Orks, and therefor the most recent canon. He isn't.

I know you were; I was asking Madness to provide quotes for the things he was stateing.

[Inquisitor Soren]

Does Chaos create more technology than the Imperium...I would say yes and no.

The Imperium does research actually, just very, very little on its own. Most of that is probably due to reverse engineering alien tech (Inquisition + AdMech), or old research started thousands of years ago. (AdMech) I can't quote sources but I believe at least some of it can be found on Lexacanium.

As for Chaos we see several examples. Daemon-Bound War Engines, the Daemonculaba, even (this is theory at best but I would not put it past Fabius' skills) slowly relearning Cloning. Not to mention the Dark AdMech, who the heck knows what they are up too.

Heck if you play BFG you'll note several ships Chaos has are actually new designs they lifted from the Imperium, so on top of their own research and designs they thieve and steal other groups designs.

Are at least some of these things mastered by the Imperium? Yes, PotMS is close to a Daemon Engine. But does anyone really think the Imperium is keeping a true mastery of cloning tech in the closet? Krieg may have some access to it, but really true mastery? I don't think so personally. Imagine the traitor legions rebuilt inside the Eye and shudder.

Chaos' greatest boon is rather simple, they can do things to accomplish goals that the Imperium simply cannot. They blend technology and sorcery flawlessly creating new horrors, where the Imperium in turn is bound by physics and backwards thought. Who is superior in tech though? Neither, as Chaos is to incompetent and the Imperium is to stagnant.

[FaultyVoodoo]

Chaos space marines of the original Legions have had 10,000 years to innovate and invent, and carve crazy stuff onto armour. Also, technology is merely applied knowledge. So, by adding daemons to say, a vindicator, you have devised a new technology that prevents your Vehicle from being shaken.

For example: Fire, Sticks, and Turpentine all exist naturally. However, by adding them together, you create a torch, which is technology.

Good call with Fabius btw

[Melissia]

By that definition then the Imperium is STILL more innovative. The CSMs haven't actually done all that much in ten thousand years, whereas the Imperium has designed whole new suits of power armor (the armor the Sisters wear, while providing similar protection, is obviously quite different than that of the Astartes; and that's to say nothing about the armor of Inquisitors or even private collectors such as nobility and bounty hunters), countless different types of weapons, new vehicles, and vehicle variants.

[FaultyVoodoo]

I agree with that, I was just saying that daemonic possession is technological advancement

[Melissia]

That's like saying tying a guard dog's leash to a pole and saying he's a limited range biological defense turret is technological advancement.

[Nabterayl]

Well, uh, yeah, it is. First time somebody figured out how to defend an area by gaining a dog's loyalty and staking him to the ground? That's definitely a technological advancement. The fact that an organic (psychic) (sentient) being is involved is irrelevant as long as there's an inanimate interface component.

EDIT: Okay, wait, we need to make something clear here. Are we thinking of a defiler as a machine that is directed by a daemon? Or as a machine that a daemon is forced to possess? That could affect the debate, depending on how you think runes work.

EDIT 2: Also, do we agree that wraithguard are technological? Or is that also disputed?

[Melissia]

Wraithguard are a mixture of technology and the seemingly unique psychic nature of the Eldar AFIAK, but I'm no expert on Eldar.

[Sitnam]

Wraithguard are just as much a technological advancement as daemon engines are. It is irrelevant if the eldar souls/bound daemon are sentient beings. They are simply a alternative source of fuel and piloting for these vehicles. The chained dog analogy doesn't work because the dog isn't used to operate a machine. But attach a small sled to the dog, and that is technology. The dog is the power source. It may be a living creature, but it is also a mechanism in the machine. Same thing goes with chariots, wagons, etc. Even bicycles, which use the operator in a dual role as the power source.

Also, a daemon or eldar soul is not comparable to a dog/horse/human/etc in that they are immaterial beings. They are conscious beings, but that doesn't make them comparable. They can only be brought into this world and harnessed using physcic ability and/or technology (Soul Stones and whatever the user intends to bound the daemon too.)

[Fellend]

I still don't consider it technological advancement , Social advancement yes, because the culture change with the domestication of animals. But is there any technology involved? Did we forge the dog?

Let's say that the dog refused to work, he just sits there have we invented anything? No we've put a dog on collar. Same with the daemon, if we let him possess a machine and thus creating a defiler and the defiler then ****s off to pick daisies, it's not like we've invented a killing machine. We have simply provided a immaterial being with a material body.

You can't take the natural abilites of another being and call them technology just because you've found a way to use it. A cow producing milk isn't technology, but if you build a machine that recreates the exact same process without the cow then you have technology.

[AirHorse]

I think its technological advancement, same as the daemons in dreadnoughts etc. People seem to think of technology as involving machines and computers, but ultimately it is the idea or concept that is the technological advancement really.

If a caveman stored his food in a pile but it kept getting stolen over night while he slept and he then came up with the idea to bury it so it wouldnt get stolen, that is technological advancement to me. He made use of the available materials to advance the protection afforded to his food. Just because he didnt build a safe to keep it in and cctv cameras to catch those who were looking doesnt make it any less of a technological feat if you ask me.

[Melissia]

Let's define technology, then.

To pull from Princeton: "the practical application of science to commerce or industry"

To be more specific, the application of science, which itself is a broad term... I'd define it as the organized pursuit of knowledge, based off of repeated and systematic experimentation.

In this sense, research into psychic powers and the wapr can be scientific. I personally have severe doubt that the majority of SMs have the mental capacity for true scientific research, nevermind CSMs who'd be even less disposed towards it; they are creatures of war, not science. But keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of Chas is not CSMs, in fact CSMs are practically non-existent as far as Chaos is concerned. Mind you, the stagnant nature of the Imperium is grossly exaggerated by many writers... Imperial Psykers, for example, are themselves constantly researching the warp. Imperial Sages are likewise. Hell, even the Imperial Church gets in on the action, holding and expanding upon their many alchemical secrets (which they refer to as chymistry).

[Sitnam]

Going off of that definition then vehicles operated by living beings can fit undet technology, as they are applying the science of binding daemons. Somerthing has just occured to me however. We ave been caught up talking about d aemon engines, I think noone has pointed out newer imperial innovations. Storm bolters and assault cannons are a small example of technology unseen by the Great Crusaders

[Fellend]

New jetpacks allthough gamewise they do not seem to be improved. New armors, or as mentioned in one of the Tanith novels, a new sharper knife!, IG seems to be mass producing new and impressive vehicles. But then again it's hard to know what's always been around but convieniently not mentioned and what's new. The only real comparison we have is the CSM and SM as they are directly related.

Speaking of Tanith, doesn't the Chaos forces come up with lots of new fancy killing machines in Necropolis? Or am I remembering wrong? Something about Death spiders, or scorpions or whatever.

[Fellend]

Going off of that definition then vehicles operated by living beings can fit undet technology, as they are applying the science of binding daemons. Somerthing has just occured to me however. We ave been caught up talking about d aemon engines, I think noone has pointed out newer imperial innovations. Storm bolters and assault cannons are a small example of technology unseen by the Great Crusaders

Science and sorcery..... not sure they are the same thing. By that definition yeah probably but modern day lexicon doesn't take into account worlds where sorcery and the warp is a real fact.

[Nabterayl]

This is why I think it's important to define whether or not a Defiler is a daemon engine. A daemon engine is what you get when a daemon possesses an inanimate object instead of a biological one - just as a daemon can use the body of a human being as a link to the material world, so too can it use the body of a machine. That's something the daemon does all on its own, and I don't think that really qualifies as a technological advance (well, maybe it does for the daemon, but certainly not for the person who built the machine being possessed).

On the other hand, if a daemon can be bound to a machine through the application, by a man, of definite principles, and if the process can be repeated and produce the same results, I'd call that technology.

Defilers are occasionally described as daemon engines (e.g., on Lexicanum), but I don't think that's strictly accurate. The daemon in a Brass Scorpion can choose to leave its mechanical body and return to the Warp, just as the daemon in a possessed human being can stop possessing the human being if it wants to. The daemon in a Defiler, on the other hand, is not free to leave.

[Melissia]

Science and sorcery are not inherently mutually exclusive. One can study sorcery from a scientific perspective, in fact the Imperium does that (albeit, only Inquisition-supported psykers and sages are allowed such, and anyone else that tries is a heretic to be burned).

[Nabterayl]

Bingo. Somebody figured out how to produce a machine that, combined with replicable "sorcerous" manipulation of the Warp, can reliably be piloted and animated by daemon. I note that at least some of the binding appears to be mechanical/physical in nature, as the model plainly depicts the daemon being bound to a specific component - which in turn suggests (though admittedly does not prove) that if you were to build the machine without that component, or to build that component defectively, that the sorcerous manipulations of the Warp would not produce the same result. Overall, sounds like technology to me.

[AirHorse]

Surely the iron warriors build lots of new machines all the time, even if they are just bigger fortresses or bigger guns to smash bigger fortresses. All i really know about the iron warriors aside from generic and fairly detailess stuff I got from the ultramarines novel with them(is that dead sky, black sun?) but the impression i got was that they were pretty techinically minded and seemed to be pretty interested in discovering new techonologies.

[The_Ancient]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet but all this talk of sorcery and science being seperate is nonsense if you ask me

sorcery is just science that we don't know the theory behind yet

[Fellend]

Sorcery in itself can surely be science, If you manage to gather the warp in a bottle and use it to light fires then you've invented a new kind of lighter. But If you bind a burning daemon in a bottle you haven't really invented anything you are just moving a sentient being with that power from one place to another.

Personally I think anything that uses daemons is just using the daemons natural talents and not actually science but that's me. Clearly people disagree.

[Nabterayl]

Well, here's how I look at it: the "technology" involved isn't the fact that the daemon is possessing the machine, but the fact that you have reliably figured out how to make the daemon possess the machine, whether it wants to or not, and prevent the daemon from escaping.

[Sitnam]

Science and sorcery..... not sure they are the same thing. By that definition yeah probably but modern day lexicon doesn't take into account worlds where sorcery and the warp is a real fact.

But if socerey was a real phenomenon i see no reason it would not be studied and harnessed. Infact the study and harnessing of warp related subjects is common in 40k.


Sorcery in itself can surely be science, If you manage to gather the warp in a bottle and use it to light fires then you've invented a new kind of lighter. But If you bind a burning daemon in a bottle you haven't really invented anything you are just moving a sentient being with that power from one place to another.

Personally I think anything that uses daemons is just using the daemons natural talents and not actually science but that's me. Clearly people disagree. But the process of bringing daemons into the material realm and bonding them to inanimate objects is what makes them technology. Furthermore, what about chariots? Are they not technology because they are simply letting horses use their natural talents? The daemon is the crew and the power source. Without it the defiler will not work. Without the spirit of the spirit stones wraithgaurd wouldnt work.


Well, here's how I look at it: the "technology" involved isn't the fact that the daemon is possessing the machine, but the fact that you have reliably figured out how to make the daemon possess the machine, whether it wants to or not, and prevent the daemon from escaping. I somewhat agree, but there is still a process and a degree of study put into simply allowing the daemon entrance into the real world. And even though it is called sorcery, anything that requires that kind of study is another form of science. Daemons need certain conditions to enter from the warp, either natural ones (warp disturbances) or artificial conditions (Daemon binding.) It is in the artifical warp disturbances that we see science put into place.

[Melissia]

I should note that the Imperium does the same kind of studies, but with different aims. Dark Heresy describes, for example, the Scholars Empyrean, psykers whose entire purpose is to study the warp and the nature of the soul.

[Lerra]

The lay definition of technology is a bit different from the academic one. At least in the social sciences, technology is a very broad concept. A long time ago, someone had the idea to domesticate cows in order to harvest their milk. That was a leap forward in technology, even if humans didn't create the cow or the milk. The innovation is the idea, not the product itself.

A daemon engine is pretty clearly technology by that standard. Even if the humans didn't come up with the idea, someone did (ie: the daemon, or perhaps a long-dead race). If that piece of technology advances the cause of Chaos, I'd say it's technological progress, even if it was stolen from someone else.

[Paul]

I would say that the Dark Mechanicus has technological development covered for Chaos.

In Dark Adeptus, they have purple, shoulder-mounted guns of some kind that can shoot the legs off of Grey Knight Terminators. They have crazy, anti-gravity skimmers with biological enhancements and acid-spitting guns. They have a gigantic, half-biological half-mechanical worm that burrows through their buildings, and "flesh-weaving" factories to create their biomechanical creations.

All of these new things are technological improvements, one would say advancements, over the way the Mechanicus of the Imperium operates.

HOWEVER,

Some of the books I've read (Mechanicum and Titanicus) imply, although not explicitly, that there is some new research being done. The problem with new research, though, is that it must be sent to Mars and run through the Temple of All Knowledge. Even if it passes that test, it must also be in storage for hundreds of years before the Mechanicus decides that, STC or no, the new technology is safe.

This is especially obvious in Mechanicum, with some forges (the more liberal ones) using the Noosphere (wireless internet) and the more conservative forges using standard, easily-techno-virused wiring.

[Melissia]

I never said chaos didn't have tech advances, just not CSMs. The thought of a khornate berzerker sitting down and studying mechanics makes me laugh. CSMs are, in my mind, pretty stupid except in combat. Yes, my own dim view of the very concept of marines colors this, but it's likely true anyway, especially for the cultist marines.

[Lerra]

Followers of Tzeentch are more likely than followers of Khorne to sit down with a book or an experiment. Well, at least the sorcerors. Didn't the Thousand Sons fall to chaos because of their desire for knowledge?

[Melissia]

Sure, but they're entirely focused on sorcerous research I think. The same could be said of Imperial Psykers, whom are far more numerous, even if they do not research "sorcery" per se they do research the warp, the soul, and the nature of psychic powers, daemons, and so on.

[FaultyVoodoo]

Heres another interesting conflict between sorcery and Technological advancement: Nurgle. The plague father spends his days brewing up new and deadlier diseases. Isn't the enhancement of biological weapons a technological advance?

[DarkLink]

Heres another interesting conflict between sorcery and Technological advancement: Nurgle. The plague father spends his days brewing up new and deadlier diseases. Isn't the enhancement of biological weapons a technological advance?

Well, the technology is more the creation and distribution of said diseases.

[Melissia]

Also, nurgle is a chaos god, so I'm unsure if that's actual true technological advances anyway, given that he basically just wills it to be.

[FaultyVoodoo]

But from what I recall from the Chaos Daemons codex, he still uses trial and error. He tests them on Isha. But he is kind of the Incarnation of biological warfare, so theres really not much room for competition with the big green giant

[mr1029384756]

As to the "no tech advancement" of chaos, I have one response: Defilers. Chaos wants killy things, so makes chaotic killy things. Now how much of this is advancement and how much is pure insane innovation is up for debate.

Oblitorators maybe...

[Lord Anubis]

CSMs are, in my mind, pretty stupid except in combat.

Ahhh, yes. Fabius Bile is best known in all the codex materials for his revolutionary "hit it with a rock" method of DNA manipulation... ;)