The changing face of GW

[Mr Mystery]

Morning.

Decided we needed a dedicated thread to the interesting things that are happening.

Here's a quick rundown of what I've clocked so far.

1) new advertising doesn't feature young white males
2) flagship army for Age of Sigmar confirmed to include men and women in their ranks
3) persons of colour shown amongst the ranks of the Bloodbound.
4) Page 119 of Curse of the Wulfen....I just clocked Space Wolves of colour. It's true! Check my attached photo.

Possibly the whitest of white Chapters (not counting Ravenguard, who are albino) has crashed into the modern day. It's significant enough to show GW are now branching out, but to have an 'official start' with the one Chapter based on Vikings, and thus long considered to be distinctly Blonde Haired and Blue Eyed?

That's pretty cool. And there's a variety of skin tones elsewhere.

It appears we live in interesting times.

[Haighus]

That is interesting. I've never seen any reason why Space Marines wouldn't retain their prior skin tone after going through the implantations, except for in the obvious cases of Raven Guard and Salamanders, as the transformative process has never been shown as completely making a mini-me of the Primarch out of every Marine. If we go by the SoH fluff, then something like half of them wound up looking like Horus, which means the other half would have a variety of features and skin tones (although mostly coming from Cthonia, they would probably mainly have very pale skin tones due to living underground anyway). It also appears some geneseeds have a greater transformative effect than others- Blood Angels geneseed is noted as being particularly powerful I think? Which they need to be, due to the high levels of mutation on Baal.

Relic has given us poc in the Blood Ravens too, with Jonah Orion.

Eitherway, progress is progress :)

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

It's long been in the background that part of the transformation is that a Marine's skin can rapidly produce melanin to suit their environment, and it seems the Ravenguard and Salamanders are at the very extremes of this due to mutation of their Geneseed.

But it's never really been established before whether this affected their 'baseline' skin colour. Here? Seemingly not.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

They have fantastic autonomic control, they may even be able to CHOOSE!

[Mr Mystery]

There is that I suppose.

[Psychosplodge]

That makes no sense on an ice world *shrugs*

[Erik Setzer]

1. Well, at least they're trying to show other people play their games (again).
2. *Yawn.* They're all modeled to be men. There are still no AoS models that are female. I don't want to hear about supposed women forced to look like a man for eternity. It's not news until they make actual female models. Preferably ones that don't use a flimsy "justification" for being dressed in next to nothing.
3. Cannibal evil guys have diversity while the good guys don't... yeah, that sounds like a step in the right direction.
4. As Psychosplodge noted, that's the worst scenario, because it's the one that makes least sense. You could do it with other chapters and, you know, Imperial Guard. Moreover, you could paint some models like that, and model some guys like that. (Now, if it's Space Wolves who've been stuck off Fenris for 10,000 years all over, like Wulfen, it would make more sense. Which is why I planned on going with some non-white Wulfen.)

So they're making token gestures toward "diversity" while still making predominantly male miniatures. And that's a "changing face" how?

We do live in interesting times. People heap praises on GW for that stuff, while third parties create the female and non-white bits to convert their models that they refuse to make. Meanwhile, other games have good amounts of actual diversity, especially games like Malifaux and Infinity, and even Warmachine and Hordes. Somehow, though, they don't get any credit, while people continue to act like GW is somehow "leading the way."

They used to have more diversity in their art and advertising. Going back a short step toward what they used to do isn't that interesting. They still made the stupid choice of getting away from it.

In the end, there are still issues GW refuses to change that will define their falling from the heights they achieved. Price is a huge one. The GW-is-All crowd act like they have to price their products at ridiculous prices to make any profit, which is clearly wrong. The pricing of some books at much lower price points than similar books shows the fallacy to this claim. When the AdMech books came out at a lower price than similarly sized codices and supplements, that was ridiculous enough. Then some supplements were redone, but as softcovers, yet for some reason cost the same price as hardback books of the same size, and twice what some similarly sized books cost. So either the top level is ridiculously overpriced, or they're selling stuff at a loss, and it's clearly not the last one.

Throwing out $74 books and $165 board games is a similarly horrible way to attract new customers (which turns off the people they might be trying to attract with going back to more diversity with token nods to said diversity).

And then there's the actual quality. You might get a decent feeling softcover book for $16.50... and then they want you to pay twice that for the same sized book of the same quality. But then there's the worse cases. Like when they switched from pewter to resin to save money and did so in a hurry which caused a lot of messed up products, and to this day the inferior material they use will snap way too easily and warps in any degree of heat (meaning product used here in Florida ends up messed up over time, also leading to why they can't sell any on the shelves)... while somehow the price went up. The switch to plastic was for a cheaper material, and computer design for cheaper design (which is still inferior in certain areas), and yet they keep charging more and more for new products. White Dwarf was moved to being a weekly sales flyer and has already been repeating articles, but is $16-$20 a month versus when it was $5 a month for something a lot more useful. And the most egregious recent example, these ridiculous Supremacy Tactical Objective cards I paid over twice as much as standard cards for, while they're non-standard shape so can't be mixed with the others, come in a cheap flimsy box rather than a nice hard case, and are made of a material that feels almost like paper... I paid a lot more money for a quite inferior product. (Which, mind you, says "Made in China" on it, so come on, don't talk about the cost of producing stuff in the UK. But then, my Harlequin cards I pulled out for comparison also were made in China. But, again, better quality by miles.)

Speaking of quality, it's clear looking through the Grand Alliance books that they're rushing their painting staff, or even just outsourcing parts of it. You can spot units that were painted in a completely different style from other units, despite all being painted recent enough to be part of the AoS line. There are some models where the paintjob seems rushed and feels like a junior grade paint job, too robotic in how it looks and not nearly the quality you expect from the 'Eavy Metal team of old.

So, yeah. Congrats. They're making token efforts to show a bit of diversity. They're finally making token efforts to return to the kind of stores that helped them grow, all while continuing to swear they're not a company who'd make products the way they have to market them in those stores. They're taking very minor steps BACK in the right direction.

But they're also running toward the ledge at the same time. And you can show girls playing the game, and black cannibals, and a token non-white Space Marine from a world where no one would have that much melanin, and produce products to sell in toy stores, and have starter boxes with a savings... but at the end of the day, the core of the line is still well overpriced products that have been slipping further and further in quality. For each lone right step they take, they take a dozen wrong ones. They're getting desperate, but it won't help when their response to lagging sales is to shove out a product they assume people will snatch up like the TO cards (plenty of us out there who like the concept) and it turns out to be so lacking in quality that it turns people off on buying future products of a similar source.

They won't ever see how these things are a problem, or where they have real issues with diversity and the like, until they stop their bunker mentality and reach out to get in touch with customers again. Being afraid of negative feedback means they'll never know what they need to fix, how to fix it, and how long they have to fix it before patience runs out.

Doesn't help when they poke their head out and see that some people will accept the bare minimum and lower quality at higher prices and proclaim to everyone that things are looking up.

[Gotthammer]

That makes no sense on an ice world *shrugs*


4. As Psychosplodge noted, that's the worst scenario, because it's the one that makes least sense. You could do it with other chapters and, you know, Imperial Guard. Moreover, you could paint some models like that, and model some guys like that. (Now, if it's Space Wolves who've been stuck off Fenris for 10,000 years all over, like Wulfen, it would make more sense. Which is why I planned on going with some non-white Wulfen.)

...

and a token non-white Space Marine from a world where no one would have that much melanin,

Why's that?

I mean it's a world where there's a single permanent landmass, giant monsters abound, there are - despite almost no permanent land - permanent colonies of wolves (who may or may not actually be people) but it's thinking that non-white people might exist there that's too much?

Also Fenris isn't encased in a perpetual winter, during the summer months there's like volcanoes and all that jazz, so doesn't seem far fetched to me that people not living at polar latitudes could be non-white. I mean Mongolia is rather well known as a cold place, covered in snow during winter, but wouldn't call the people there white or say their existence makes no sense.

But maybe that's just me...

[grimmas]

Quick point of order. There are female Stormcasts, that's a fact not liking how this is represented doesn't change this. Where does it say that they are all white ? It's not been mentioned, we know that people of other ethnicities exist in the realms why wouldn't they be members of the Stormcast. They are completely covered in armour to hide their identity. Dryads are all female as well.

Space Marines change skin colour depending on the conditions anyway and judging by the performance of their other implants probably dramatically and quickly their skin colour won't be fixed. There are a couple exceptions to this rule but generally they can be whatever you fancy. Also don't forget they are massively genetically and surgically altered so we are talking purely about skin colour if they have a racial grouping it's space marine.

[Psychosplodge]

Because Space Wolves are space vikings. And White scars are space mongols. And the lack of thought to the background makes it look like tokenism not inclusivity. We're talking a setting where it's been long enough for squats to both evolve from humans and get eaten by tyranids, but the easiest way to get vitamin d hasn't evolved in an iceworld native?
Now if we look grimmas's suggestion, unless the lone marine is an ex wolfblade the entire pack or even great company should be painted dark skinned if they've been fighting somewhere with high UV levels.
Whereas if there's massive scope for non-white space marines in the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and many more that recruit from varied populations.
I'd have the same objection to the idea of white space marines in a chapter that recruits from a desert world. It just wouldn't make sense.

[Mr Mystery]

Why's that?

I mean it's a world where there's a single permanent landmass, giant monsters abound, there are - despite almost no permanent land - permanent colonies of wolves (who may or may not actually be people) but it's thinking that non-white people might exist there that's too much?

Also Fenris isn't encased in a perpetual winter, during the summer months there's like volcanoes and all that jazz, so doesn't seem far fetched to me that people not living at polar latitudes could be non-white. I mean Mongolia is rather well known as a cold place, covered in snow during winter, but wouldn't call the people there white or say their existence makes no sense.

But maybe that's just me...

Yup. It think it's actually particularly interesting because the assumption has always been Viking Inspired - Predominantly Aryan in look.

But this is a planet long since settled by Man. Why wouldn't that include varying ethnicities?

Splodge raises an interesting point about Abhumans. Except, Abhumans aren't purely down to isolated evolution. There's one short story from Inferno! which particularly comes to mind - in short, genetic manipulation was used on one planet pre-Age of Strife to adapt to the conditions. I know they wound up with three legs (high gravity) and I keep thinking they had something like blue skin?

So Squats and Ogryns may very well be subject to the same. Not to mention the warping influence of Chaos.

[Psychosplodge]

In fact it makes no sense that Bangles are white, coming from a radiation soaked desert moon, or do they have the "all look like the primach" thing going on the raven guard and salamanders do?

[grimmas]

Because Space Wolves are space vikings. And White scars are space mongols. And the lack of thought to the background makes it look like tokenism not inclusivity. We're talking a setting where it's been long enough for squats to both evolve from humans and get eaten by tyranids, but the easiest way to get vitamin d hasn't evolved in an iceworld native?
Now if we look grimmas's suggestion, unless the lone marine is an ex wolfblade the entire pack or even great company should be painted dark skinned if they've been fighting somewhere with high UV levels.
Whereas if there's massive scope for non-white space marines in the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and many more that recruit from varied populations.
I'd have the same objection to the idea of white space marines in a chapter that recruits from a desert world. It just wouldn't make sense.


Yep

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In fact it makes no sense that Bangles are white, coming from a radiation soaked desert moon, or do they have the "all look like the primach" thing going on the raven guard and salamanders do?

They do stick he B Angels in Sarcophagi which turn them from twisted mutants into Astartes though. There's a fair chance they'd all look fairly similar as they're working to a template (based on a blue eyed blonde haired white boy)

[Mr Mystery]

Yep. The Blood Angel look is down to the Geneseed - it's long established they start out pretty manky, but then emerge, as well...

http://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Mbc29fdfae5b2cdc5390e59e92d1a3b80H0&pid=15.1

[Gotthammer]

I guess for me the "space" qualifier in space vikings has been enough to throw any pretence of historical accuracy out the window.

[Mr Mystery]

Good point well made.

I forgot to add point 5) to the first post - a gender fluid character in an AoS short story.

Yes, they're a follower of Slaanesh so perhaps some might feel it's insulting/clichéd, but I found the overall description very sympathetic. The character herself isn't physically described, just their armour. It's not played for sensation, or even central to the plot. It just points out that they don't really have a fixed gender, but 'she felt like being a she'.

So little steps being taken all the time, which is nice.

[Psychosplodge]

That's fair enough for you. There's probably things that break the background for everyone that don't bother someone else.

Mystery, where was the genetic manipulation story for abhumans? I just remember them being described as evolved from human miners on high g worlds in the background book that came with 2nd (was it the codex imperialis?) Probably the most modern depiction of squats and its over twenty years old.

[Mr Mystery]

Genetic Manipulation story (which wasn't about Squats!) was in a random Inferno! story.

Couldn't tell you which issue, but one of the earlier ones. Was quite cool actually. Random Imperial Personage is nursed back to health by the populace, who are ecstatic about rejoining the fold of humanity. Of course, the Random Imperial Personage is quite aware that the species is liable to be exterminated as soon as his rescue party find him.

So with that in mind, it seems quite possible Squats may be a result of partial genetic tinkering.

[grimmas]

The squats got eaten by Tyranids they're gone. They did evolve from miners on high G worlds though.

The background is rather important to the setting. It has its own history. Changing it to suit an individual's real life political stance is rubbish. However reflecting the actual diversity of the setting is appropriate and it is diverse.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The squats got eaten by Tyranids they're gone. They did evolve from miners on high G worlds though.

The background is rather important to the setting. It has its own history. Changing it to suit an individual's real life political stance is rubbish. However reflecting the actual diversity of the setting is appropriate and it is diverse.

I thought the whole point of the setting was, "do what you want?" Y'know, unimaginably vast setting with deliberate holes left all over it.

[Psychosplodge]

There's limits though, you're never going to see Ork pacifists.

[grimmas]

I thought the whole point of the setting was, "do what you want?" Y'know, unimaginably vast setting with deliberate holes left all over it.

Yes that's why there's no need change existing background there's plenty of room to add new bits.

[Morgrim]

Europe has never been as lily-white as modern pop culture likes to portray it. Given the strong tradition of adult adoption in nordic culture, there were almost certainly some non-white vikings hanging about. And to use "well they're based on an earth culture!" as a reason to say darker toned Space Wolves break your suspension of disbelief is silly.

Because it's canonical that the humans of Fenris have been enhanced/tainted with the genetic sequences that the Canis Helix latches on to. The sequence that turns humans into WOLVES. Go look at the skin colour dogs have under their hair. There's pink skin under the white fur, and black skin under the black and brown fur. On our planet the people who have evolved to live furthest north don't get their vitamin D from the sun, they get it from their diet, and next to none of their skin is exposed to sunlight (so being pale is mostly down to descending from people who COULD get value from it). Boom. We now have entirely plausible reasons for Fenrisian humans to be any skin colour we damn well please.

Actually, we've also got justification for them to be piebald...

[Gotthammer]

Yes that's why there's no need change existing background there's plenty of room to add new bits.

The only thing we know for sure there aren't on Fenris is wolves, not brown people.

Though I will admit not reading the last couple of Wolves codexes, so I could have missed a passage where they specify they only recruit white people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Psychosplodge]

Actually, we've also got justification for them to be piebald...

lmao :D If you weren't in Oz I'd suggest you do that, but your prices make a comedy army prohibitive.

[grimmas]

The only thing we know for sure there aren't on Fenris is wolves, not brown people.

Though I will admit not reading the last couple of Wolves codexes, so I could have missed a passage where they specify they only recruit white people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Surely that fits with my line of reasoning then?


Also as a slight aside Viking is a job title not a racial group.

The areas of Europe involved in that sort of thing were and still are pretty lilly white. Though this certainly wouldn't have precluded Vikings of other skin tones it would have been rarer. Not necessarily relevant for another planet though.

[Erik Setzer]

Why's that?

I mean it's a world where there's a single permanent landmass, giant monsters abound, there are - despite almost no permanent land - permanent colonies of wolves (who may or may not actually be people) but it's thinking that non-white people might exist there that's too much?

Also Fenris isn't encased in a perpetual winter, during the summer months there's like volcanoes and all that jazz, so doesn't seem far fetched to me that people not living at polar latitudes could be non-white. I mean Mongolia is rather well known as a cold place, covered in snow during winter, but wouldn't call the people there white or say their existence makes no sense.

But maybe that's just me...

I always got the image that it *was* kind of permanently shrouded, which would make it far less likely to see someone with a darker skin tone than, say, Catachan. I might have my vision of Fenris wrong, though.

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Quick point of order. There are female Stormcasts, that's a fact not liking how this is represented doesn't change this. Where does it say that they are all white ? It's not been mentioned, we know that people of other ethnicities exist in the realms why wouldn't they be members of the Stormcast. They are completely covered in armour to hide their identity.

We're told these things, but given that they aren't represented because the gender or skin tone of the person doesn't matter in an army of basically clones of a white man, it's not an indication of suddenly "seeing the light" on diversity.

That's the problem when you're trying to save money and realize a good way to do it is make an army so generic that Space Marines look highly varied in comparison.

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In fact it makes no sense that Bangles are white, coming from a radiation soaked desert moon, or do they have the "all look like the primach" thing going on the raven guard and salamanders do?

This is one of the things I hate about modern Blood Angels and why I don't often use their uncovered heads. They shouldn't all be blue-eyed and blonde-haired. I think Sanguinius was awesome, but I like it when the guys in the chapter looked different.

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The background is rather important to the setting. It has its own history. Changing it to suit an individual's real life political stance is rubbish. However reflecting the actual diversity of the setting is appropriate and it is diverse.

Given that they keep changing the history of the setting and its participants, I don't see a serious issue with people making up "headcanon" for something. If it went too far astray, okay, that could be an issue.

However, expecting something like actually seeing some Guardsmen who aren't painted to be white men, or even a single female miniature created for AoS, there's no issue there.

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There's limits though, you're never going to see Ork pacifists.

It's actually possible. Some of them have their programming off by a good bit. Heck, Freebooterz were meant to be an example of this, Orks who went outside what they were programmed to do. Similarly, Stormboyz are a result of the programming going awry and creating some who demand order in their battle. They'd be an extreme rarity, but an Ork pacifist is still a possibility. And it'd make for a rather amusing story.

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I suppose I should add that I'm not opposed to black Space Wolves (heck, I planned on doing it with one or two Wulfen), it just seemed like maybe it wouldn't make as much sense as other worlds (and yeah, with Blood Angels, it does make plenty of sense), and with non-genetically-modified armies it makes more sense... but we still haven't see any Guardsmen painted non-white in a long time (I'm having a hard time remembering the last one). Being based on Vikings isn't an issue, I don't see a problem Heimdall being black in the Thor universe (assuming there's an explanation for why he changed, because he didn't start that way, but I'm sure there's something somewhere).

If someone wants to do black Space Wolves, cool. Just curious that it wasn't some other legion that got them first. (I meant, with Modern GW. Classic GW had a whole chapter of black Marines, then they decided to just make them coal black, which is boring.)

[Mr Mystery]

There's certainly capacity for Ork Pacifists. But given the Kultur, I don't expect they'd last terribly long at all.

More on the evolution/genetic tinkering. Because I can't believe I missed this one...

There Are No Wolves On Fenris

Genetic tinkering right there, enabling Man to survive on a deathworld. Similar likely happened to the Squats and Ogryns - 30,000 years doesn't sound like a particularly wide window for that level of evolution anyway :)

[Erik Setzer]

There's certainly capacity for Ork Pacifists. But given the Kultur, I don't expect they'd last terribly long at all.

They might be able to, depending on the role they took in the society. While Orks are all about violence as a form of partying, that's pretty much what it is to them: a party. They aren't unthinking brutes who get the urge to act out violence on a moment's whim against anything around. So if, for example, an Ork was a pacifist and he took up a position selling something necessary within a clan, it's unlikely he'd come to much harm, as those who pick on him would then find themselves in trouble from others.

Ork society is a lot more complex than people give it credit for. I really wish they'd re-release some of the old fluff. The 4th edition stuff (which just got copied-and-pasted for 7th edition) wasn't bad, the 3rd edition codex still owes us a serious explanation, but the earlier stuff, especially side stories, showed that Orks weren't as simple as people seem to think, and certainly not as simple as the Imperium is portrayed to believe they are.

And I swear this isn't my rampant Ork fanboyism coming through.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

hard SF nerd mode/

In a far future when humanity is so dominant throughout the galaxy the diversity of humans would be millions of times more than it is on earth as each world would have subtlies in temperature, gravity, atmosphere, sunlight (and more!) that would affect humans over time. Hell even cultures space-based would be affected in various ways. GW has only ever really had any focus on high gravity (with Squats lol)

[grimmas]

There's no Ork pacifists. An Ork who won't look after themself is food.

[CoffeeGrunt]

There's an element of natural selection that would be possible after Fenris went feral, but that's a whole other can of worms. Fenris is a world entirely built around survival of the fittest, but unlike Catachan it's survival of those best adapted to the colder, sunless times when Fenris goes on the outward leg of its elliptical orbit. The only reference I really have is the Space Wolves Heresy book I read, which paints Fenris as a bloody horrible place to live.

Now it's perfectly feasible that there may originally have been a significant population of PoC, but in 10,000 years of regression their struggle to survive would be slightly harder than others. Darker skin is the result of higher melanin concentrations, which is useful in sunny places for blocking high amounts of UV radiation while still allowing enough to be received for Vitamin D synthesis. In colder climes with less sun, said barrier actually prevents enough Vitamin D from being created, which leads to long-term health effects such as osteoporosis and other ailments. You could supplement the Vitamin D with diet, however, allowing a group of dark-skinned people to survive.

Now this would imply that, much like the migration of originally-African human ancestors to Europe, the white-skin mutation would be favourable and eventually become dominant. In Fenrisian tribes where dark-skinned people are a minority, this would likely result in them fading over time through a combination of selection, (which, again, favours them slightly less than lighter-skinned people,) and breeding with lighter-skinned people.

Now, it doesn't prevent the possibility of majority-dark skinned tribes existing and sustaining their numbers, but there's the risk of inbreeding if those numbers are too few. Can't really speculate without an idea of what sort of population statistics Fenris had before the Age of Strife.

[Mr Mystery]

And that requires that Vitamin D is otherwise hard to come by.

Quick Wiki check (because as already covered, I can't science very well) suggests fatty fish, such as Salmon, Mackeral, Tuna etc are a decent, non-sunlight source of Vitamin D. And Fenrisians would likely eat a lot of seafood, given their semi-nomadic nature and the cause for that (water. Lots and lots of water). And being cold, any fish equivalent life forms (provided the original settlers didn't bring any stock) would likely be fatty as well, because of the cold water.

So whilst naturally low melanin would of course be an advantage, it's really hard to say with any certainty that high melanin would be disadvantageous enough to generally threaten survival.

Plus, Cold doesn't mean a lack of sunlight. Fenris gets a bit nippy because of it's wonky orbit. The northern hemisphere gets a bit nippy because of long, dark nights in the winter - these are two different factors. Being a long way from your Sun simply isn't the same as only being exposed to it's light for 5 hours day, 6 months of the year :)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Plus, Cold doesn't mean a lack of sunlight. Fenris gets a bit nippy because of it's wonky orbit. The northern hemisphere gets a bit nippy because of long, dark nights in the winter - these are two different factors. Being a long way from your Sun simply isn't the same as only being exposed to it's light for 5 hours day, 6 months of the year :)

It's kinda worse, actually. I mean, again, no reference on how elliptical Fenris' orbit is, but if it straddles between Earth and Mars size of orbits, then it'd result in a noticeable loss of radiation.

The heat from the sun is infra-red radiation, after all, and if you're getting less of that due to attenuation and distance, you'll get less of everything else, too.

[grimmas]

I think that the most important difference possessed by white people in relation to the cold is the extra subcutaneous fat. This however is based on what's happend on Earth. Not the Deathworld Fenris 38000yrs In the future.

Snow does reflect a lot of light. It can intensify the available sunlight, also we don't know the make up of the light coming form the star which illuminates Fenris or what reaches the surface.

It still doesn't change the fact that Space Marines have an implant who's job is to produce and control Melanin. So regardless of their initial skin colour it will change. Its only flawed geneseed that will affect this, Raven Gaurd, salamanders etc.

[Mud Duck]

Yep. The Blood Angel look is down to the Geneseed - it's long established they start out pretty manky, but then emerge, as well...

http://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Mbc29fdfae5b2cdc5390e59e92d1a3b80H0&pid=15.1

Ready too do the Time Warp. again?

[Mr Mystery]

It's kinda worse, actually. I mean, again, no reference on how elliptical Fenris' orbit is, but if it straddles between Earth and Mars size of orbits, then it'd result in a noticeable loss of radiation.

The heat from the sun is infra-red radiation, after all, and if you're getting less of that due to attenuation and distance, you'll get less of everything else, too.

Fair points.

Though would it not also depend upon the size and age of the sun in question as well?

[Path Walker]

Long story short, everyone should make more of an effort, including GW, to be diverse with their armies where they can. If this means painting up a few of your Space Marines as POC or even *gasp* giving them women's heads, this would make the hobby just a tiny bit better. Where is the harm in it?

[Mr Mystery]

Oh absolutely.

But it's important that GW are now making more than a token effort to be inclusive.

For many years, they came across like this....

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/02/26/article-1360767-06AC13E5000005DC-875_634x415.jpg

[Path Walker]

Its really important, I think the hobby community needs to make sure it does it's bit too though. More diversity, more ladies, less weird Prodoss-Bondage Marines.

[Haighus]

I suppose I should add that I'm not opposed to black Space Wolves (heck, I planned on doing it with one or two Wulfen), it just seemed like maybe it wouldn't make as much sense as other worlds (and yeah, with Blood Angels, it does make plenty of sense), and with non-genetically-modified armies it makes more sense... but we still haven't see any Guardsmen painted non-white in a long time (I'm having a hard time remembering the last one). Being based on Vikings isn't an issue, I don't see a problem Heimdall being black in the Thor universe (assuming there's an explanation for why he changed, because he didn't start that way, but I'm sure there's something somewhere).

If someone wants to do black Space Wolves, cool. Just curious that it wasn't some other legion that got them first. (I meant, with Modern GW. Classic GW had a whole chapter of black Marines, then they decided to just make them coal black, which is boring.) I do agree that other Chapters would be lower-hanging fruit; Blood Angels (apart from the seemingly particularly powerful transformative effect of Sanguinius' geneseed), Imperial Fists and Dark Angels (the latter two recruiting from across the Galaxy) would all be more likely to have a dark skin tone.

There was a black Catachan model in the 4th Edition Imperial Guard codex (as well as a whole Regiment in the Doctrines section in the back of the book who hailed from a volcanic world, the Kanak skull takers).


Actually, we've also got justification for them to be piebald... Ok, I want piebald/skewbald Marines. That is an awesome idea. It does happen in humans naturally in real life too, but it is super rare (although the underlying process is surprisingly common).


hard SF nerd mode/

In a far future when humanity is so dominant throughout the galaxy the diversity of humans would be millions of times more than it is on earth as each world would have subtlies in temperature, gravity, atmosphere, sunlight (and more!) that would affect humans over time. Hell even cultures space-based would be affected in various ways. GW has only ever really had any focus on high gravity (with Squats lol) I think the violet irises of Cadians is a great example of this- just extra diversity that we don't have currently. Presumably filters out Warp radiation bleeding form the Eye. I believe Ratlings are an example of low-grav abhumans.


It still doesn't change the fact that Space Marines have an implant who's job is to produce and control Melanin. So regardless of their initial skin colour it will change. Its only flawed geneseed that will affect this, Raven Gaurd, salamanders etc. I would've thought that the initial colour of the Marine prior to implantation would still affect their tone afterwards though, it would just fluctuate to a greater amount with the melanin-producing capabilities of Marines as compared to normal humans. I doubt the vitamin-D production is really an issue for Marines, they likely get all the nutrients they need through their diet.

[grimmas]

I would've thought that the initial colour of the Marine prior to implantation would still affect their tone afterwards though, it would just fluctuate to a greater amount with the melanin-producing capabilities of Marines as compared to normal humans. I doubt the vitamin-D production is really an issue for Marines, they likely get all the nutrients they need through their diet.

It's entirely possible. Though Space marines are incredibly efficient when comes to nutrition can run on all fuels as it were so is very likely they would have ability to produce vitamin D through their skin. However my point was more that Space Marines of any skin colour (apart from a couple types which are fixed in lore) are very likely, it doesn't really matter about where they've come from, they have a special organ which makes their skin change colour. If we take the evidence of how it functions in extremes (Raven Guard and Salamanders) there's plenty of scope for Space marines of any hue.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Fair points.

Though would it not also depend upon the size and age of the sun in question as well?

Yup. Too many variables to really be certain of how much radiation is put out, but it's certain that less will be received the further away you are, regardless of output. I mean, if it output enough at the furthest edge of the Fenrisian orbit, then at its closest point everybody would get all the cancer.

[Mr Mystery]

Which leads us back to the known tinkering with the genetic code of 'native' Fenrisians. Who knows what was done and why? It could have been to strengthen against radiation. Could have been to make their bodies more robust given the difficulties of food production. Could simply have been to make them less susceptible to extreme temperatures. Maybe all of the above, maybe none :)

[Lexington]

Kinda surprised no one's mentioned that the Salamanders were an entirely black Chapter until they were bizarrely changed to be literally black...

[Psychosplodge]

Well they weren't were they? I'm pretty sure the original photos of the Salamanders in WD had plenty of them painted white until they went down the geneseed makes them coal black with red eyes.

[grimmas]

When they released the Space marine painting guide for the original space marine paint set the helmetless Salamander was painted dark skinned. I think it was more of a fan assumption rather than an actual background thing. To be honest I didn't really think about it at the time.

17649

[Psychosplodge]

My mistake. It was probably an individuals army from the days they put them in WD I'm thinking of then.

[grimmas]

Not really this is the front of the paint set

17650

You are correct.

Things were more diverse back in the day. Female Imperial Army miniatures were much more prevalent (as opposed to the 2 a the mo I believe).

[Psychosplodge]

lols oops I got my fan assumptions back to front :D

[Erik Setzer]

Well they weren't were they? I'm pretty sure the original photos of the Salamanders in WD had plenty of them painted white until they went down the geneseed makes them coal black with red eyes.

In the Armageddon codex, there was one white and one black, but all the art seemed to suggest the darker skin tone. With the white Sergeant (interestingly, the black model was a Captain), it might have been that the person who painted the squad wasn't on the same page as everyone else.

[Mr Mystery]

First confirmed Stormcast person of colour - Lord Celestant Mykos Argellon.


He shook his head, and lifted his war helm. It was the first time he had done so in her presence. His skin was a rich, dark black almost perfect in complexion, unmarked at all by the many battles he must of fought. He had a round, boyish face, topped with a strip of shaved hair that ran down the centre of his skull

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

It would be nice to see some unmasked stormcasts, that one sounds like it would make a good character model too.

[CoffeeGrunt]

He shook his head, and lifted his war helm. It was the first time he had done so in her presence. His skin was a rich, dark black almost perfect in complexion, unmarked at all by the many battles he must of fought. He had a round, boyish face, topped with a strip of shaved hair that ran down the centre of his skull


It was the first time he had done so in her presence. His skin was a rich, dark black almost perfect in complexion, unmarked at all by the many battles he must of fought.l


unmarked at all by the many battles he must of fought.

Please say that's a misquote. :P

Though I must admit that it makes sense that Sigmar would have a mix of races. IIRC, he rounded up all men and women from all over the Old World and reforged them, right? I haven't been keeping up with the AoS lore much.

[Path Walker]

Please say that's a misquote. :P

Though I must admit that it makes sense that Sigmar would have a mix of races. IIRC, he rounded up all men and women from all over the Old World and reforged them, right? I haven't been keeping up with the AoS lore much.

Not the Old World, but the Mortal Realms, the Old World (World That Was in AoS terms) has been a destroyed wreck for eons at that point.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Not the Old World, but the Mortal Realms, the Old World (World That Was in AoS terms) has been a destroyed wreck for eons at that point.

Ah, I thought that when the End Times finished, that was when he'd made a grab for all the humie souls, then started reforging them into an army.

[grimmas]

To be fair the fluff has always been diverse. Not so much with the painting though. They do seem to be making a point with the Stormcast that they can be who you like them to be. Well so long as they also happen to be the reforged Avenging souls of a near defeated set of magical realms.

[Erik Setzer]

Ah, I thought that when the End Times finished, that was when he'd made a grab for all the humie souls, then started reforging them into an army.

After End Times, he was kind of drifting aimlessly, and by the time he could do anything, the world had been reduced to its core, which he took possession of.

Fast forward thousands of years with no real explanation of how we got here, and there's Mortal Realms as well as the core of the World-That-Was, and Chaos found those Mortal Realms, went to town on them, beat back Sigmar and his allies, Sigmar retreated, probably snatched up the best of the heroes then, and set about making the Stormcasts while holed up in his space station orbitting the core. Or maybe elsewhere. I'm not sure if the Realm of Heavens is supposed to be the space around the core, or that's a separate thing he's dealing with.

Where things get weird is that Stormcasts are apparently able to come back repeatedly, which suggests (along with the whole enclosed armor thing) that they might not have actual physical bodies. So that leaves it as a question on why this one guy has a body. But also, if they're all in armor proportioned exactly the same and designed so as to portray Sigmar and not the person inside, why would they ever take off their helmet? And how would that work if there were female Stormcasts, given that the armor would be even more oversized on them than the men?

Never mind... I'm putting too much thought in, and the explanation will always be "magic" with a hand wave.

[Mr Mystery]

Or one can bother to read the background where it's explicitly and repeatedly explain all Stormcast Eternals are flesh and blood.....and indeed reading the background would clear up many of your misconceptions. It's all there duder.

[Erik Setzer]

Not really. Because if they're "flesh and blood" then they can be killed. If he's remaking the bodies, then I suppose that's one thing, but then, the bodies might not match their original. That still wouldn't explain how you fit people into oversized suits of armor and it works, especially the people who will be much smaller (i.e. women) or have a different body style (any non-human race, and I thought some of them were said to be non-human?).

It goes back around to feeling like the fluff says one thing, the art and especially models say another.

But that's going to get into a commentary you probably won't like on how they're just saving money while charging more and more in a way that thumbs the nose at their own fluff.

[grimmas]

You need to read the background old boy. Your first paragraph shows you haven't really read it. They can die as well usually they get whisked off by Sigmar for reforging but if that gets disrupted they can be killed.

[Path Walker]

They're flesh and blood, they can die. The Reforging happens because at the moment of their death, Sigmar snatches them back to his realm and fixes them up. If Sigmar isn't able to teleport them away safely, as has happened in the fluff, they just die.

The art, fluff and models is really consistent, you just have to, you know, read it to know that.

I've lost count of the amount of times Erik has criticised the fluff of AoS while making it perfectly clear he's not actually read it. Not even the free Primer.

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You need to read the background old boy. Your first paragraph shows you haven't really read it. They can die as well usually they get whisked off by Sigmar for reforging but it that get disrupted they can be killed.

Damn, beat me to it.

[grimmas]

It's worth saying twice 🙂

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Eirk is, in a way, right.
The essence of what makes a Stormcast is a soul, the body being re-created to suit Sigmar's needs (re-forged from the template the soul provides, hence the retention of skin colour etc, this is covered in some detail in the books now).
Thusly what makes a Stormcast eternal (if you'll excuse the pun) is not flesh snd blood. That said, each reforged body IS (admittedly invested with Sigmar's power) none the less a squishy sack of organs and bones, capable of being hurt and killed. And as has been pointed out if the soul is interrupted during departure, bad stuff happens.
As a side note the minis are uniform, however in the fluff they are not, running the size range just like Humans (just bigger) and their armour and even weapons are forged unique to the stormcast during the re-forging (again described in detail during the books).

[Path Walker]

Eirk is, in a way, right.
The essence of what makes a Stormcast is a soul, the body being re-created to suit Sigmar's needs (re-forged from the template the soul provides, hence the retention of skin colour etc, this is covered in some detail in the books now).
Thusly what makes a Stormcast eternal (if you'll excuse the pun) is not flesh snd blood. That said, each reforged body IS (admittedly invested with Sigmar's power) none the less a squishy sack of organs and bones, capable of being hurt and killed. And as has been pointed out if the soul is interrupted during departure, bad stuff happens.
As a side note the minis are uniform, however in the fluff they are not, running the size range just like Humans (just bigger) and their armour and even weapons are forged unique to the stormcast during the re-forging (again described in detail during the books).

The flesh also gets telepoted up to Sigmaron at the moment of death though, so their body is usually still there to some extent to be reforged, he's dead wrong to insist, again and again, that there isn't a body in the suit of armour. That body is invested with the power of Sigmar, stronger and tougher than any normal mortal could be but it is still just flesh and blood at the end of the day.

[Mr Mystery]

It is just the soul that goes off to get a spangly new meatsuit - the description of one reforging is quite reminiscent of Frank's resurrection in Hellraiser.

But for that matter, all souls in GW games are functionally immortal - in AoS they either sink into Nagash's clutches, or are taken by the Dark Gods. Stormcast interrupt that process so long as the Lord Relictor is up and about (at least, according to the Stormcast book)

[Gotthammer]

I was actually thinking about this thread recently and how people go into long detailed explanations why Fenrisians just absolutely never ever are allowed to be black (because science).

But never see the same level of dedication to refuting people from Tallarn & Catachan - both rather sunny places - consistently being portrayed as white.

[Haighus]

Is Catachan sunny? I always got the impression it was super dense jungle and therefore everyone on Catachan was fighting through the shadows and plant life under the canopy?
There is no excuse for Tallarn, although their descriptions in the background are as middle eastern in their appearance I think (even prior to the virus bombing). The 'official' GW website image for Tallarns has them painted as darker than Cadians, but not that dark-skinned.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Tallarn-Squad

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how long it took humans to evolve different skin tones? Is 39,000 years enough time for that to happen basically, or even 10,000 years. I reckon in the more extreme environments it likely would as the selection pressures would be greater.

[Path Walker]

Is Catachan sunny? I always got the impression it was super dense jungle and therefore everyone on Catachan was fighting through the shadows and plant life under the canopy?
There is no excuse for Tallarn, although their descriptions in the background are as middle eastern in their appearance I think (even prior to the virus bombing). The 'official' GW website image for Tallarns has them painted as darker than Cadians, but not that dark-skinned.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Tallarn-Squad

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how long it took humans to evolve different skin tones? Is 39,000 years enough time for that to happen basically, or even 10,000 years. I reckon in the more extreme environments it likely would as the selection pressures would be greater.

10,000 years probably isn't enough for a massive change, especially if you've got humans living a lot longer than our ancestors were but, yeah, in a very extreme environment with a shortened life span you'd see adaptation, you'd also image in the far future there were would be some sort of genetic tinkering or selection to ensure the necessary traits are there too

[grimmas]

Defo black Catachans there at least one black model in Codex Catachans and black jungle fighters on the cover. I thought Tallarns were Arabic hence the darker skin tone the whole Lawrence of Arabia theme.

[Mr Mystery]

Ultimately Evolution is environment driven. If you've got a perk, no matter how bizarre, that allows you to survive, that perk will become the norm within relatively few generations - note that evolution is best evidenced following mass extinction events freeing up lots of niches, not to mention changing 'what useful is'.

In 10,000 years there is the argument humanity would become more homogenised, as distance barriers etc are removed and you get a more mobile global populace - but that still wouldn't necessarily entail a uniform skin tone, just perhaps (and I'm sorry, this may sound incredibly racist, it's not meant to) more of a clear gradient between?

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah absolutely agree on tallarn, which I did kinda question why you had white space marines from desert worlds?

Catachan I never got the impression it was sunny? Though I suppose if we assume its a tropical jungle planet it would be sunnier than Terran temperate climes and you're right that would suggest that catachans by that logic should be darker skinned.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. UV is little to do with direct sunlight - if it's high, it's also ambient. Being in the shade helps, but doesn't eliminate at all (hence those UV activated glasses not needing to be outside to react)

[grimmas]

Yeah absolutely agree on tallarn, which I did kinda question why you had white space marines from desert worlds?

Catachan I never got the impression it was sunny? Though I suppose if we assume its a tropical jungle planet it would be sunnier than Terran temperate climes and you're right that would suggest that catachans by that logic should be darker skinned.

The ground levels of thick jungle and dark and damp places. Trees do absorb a lot of light and generate quite a lot of shadow.

[Psychosplodge]

So we'd probably be talking skin tones more in line with amazonian tribes?

[grimmas]

Possibly but of course there is jungle elsewhere South east asia springing to mind. Though the skin colour would probably depend more on the colour of the people who initially got there with the more beneficial being the more common but of course we know now how to deal with different environmental conditions without relying simply on our biology. The true answer is probably any skin colour is viable.

[Psychosplodge]

It is true that catachans enjoy a higher technical base than the fenrisians that the initial conversation was about.

[Morgrim]

South america was the last place on the planet populated by modern humans, who reached it an estimated 12 000 years ago. There is significant variation in skin tone and facial structure between peoples native to southern south america and northern north america, so any amount of variation you see in Warhammer 40k is plausible within 15k years.

Also current thoughts are that polynesians branched from the peoples in modern day Taiwan less than 6 000 years ago. There isn't nearly as much variation between those peoples as the one above, due to staying in similar latitudes and environments, but there's still some.

[Erik Setzer]

As a side note the minis are uniform, however in the fluff they are not, running the size range just like Humans (just bigger) and their armour and even weapons are forged unique to the stormcast during the re-forging (again described in detail during the books).

That's where my problem is, and why I just seriously dislike the Stormcast Eternals. It's not so much the fluff, it's the models. GW hammers into us how their miniatures are the core of the hobby. With the SE, they went with the cheapest possible way to make a new army (while making it also the mostly costly miniatures for any army they've done, impressive). They created a bland, boring copy-paste army.

If the models matched the fluff, that'd be great. But there's no way to do that. They're so dedicated to cutting corners that even altering poses is becoming a PITA these days.

Having fluff describe the Stormcasts one way and then the models are so very different... it creates disharmony between the fluff and the game.

And someone can talk all day about GW "changing their face" because a small piece of fluff has a non-white character or a female in it, but until they do something with the models, they haven't changed a bit.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I'll agree on the models. Personally id like a fully updated sisters range, a few characters for salamanders and white scars, redone IG with mixed gender, some female Eldar stuff...and I'm sure theres more that could be done.

[Haighus]

I'll agree on the models. Personally id like a fully updated sisters range, a few characters for salamanders and white scars, I'd like an Iron Hands character before Sallies and White Scars- the latter two at least have a Character already (several for Salamanders with the awesome FW Characters, although sadly these are mostly without models). I don't even have Iron Hands but I think they could have an awesome Character. Perhaps a Character Venerable Dreadnought as an HQ option would fit their style best.
redone IG with mixed gender, Yes please! I really find my old Cadians just don't look great, especially compared to newer stuff like the Tempestus Scions, or even the newer Cadian kits like the Command Squad.
some female Eldar stuff...and I'm sure theres more that could be done. Banshees and other Aspect Warriors done in plastic would be great for Eldar. Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions and Swooping Hawks all need new models. Fire Dragons too, although not so badly.

New Sisters is a given. I really don't know why the one all-plastic model in their range is no longer available, as that is likely one of the few models that would remain unchanged after a Grey Knight style reboot. The Immolator looks cool too.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I'd like an Iron Hands character before Sallies and White Scars- the latter two at least have a Character already (several for Salamanders with the awesome FW Characters, although sadly these are mostly without models). I don't even have Iron Hands but I think they could have an awesome Character. Perhaps a Character Venerable Dreadnought as an HQ option would fit their style best. Yes please! I really find my old Cadians just don't look great, especially compared to newer stuff like the Tempestus Scions, or even the newer Cadian kits like the Command Squad. Banshees and other Aspect Warriors done in plastic would be great for Eldar. Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions and Swooping Hawks all need new models. Fire Dragons too, although not so badly.

New Sisters is a given. I really don't know why the one all-plastic model in their range is no longer available, as that is likely one of the few models that would remain unchanged after a Grey Knight style reboot. The Immolator looks cool too.

I can't believe I forgot the one I want most - a female necron overlord or cryptek, so much potential there.

It's surprising IH haven't received a character yet though I agree.

Eldar could also do with a female autarch and such. Plastic aspects are really needed and the reason I've not bought any eldar, and I bet I'm not alone there.

[Morgrim]

We don't know anything about the necrotyr other than they were humanoid and sickly. I kind of want GW to play with this more. Maybe they were hermaphroditic egg layers, or started out male and became female as they aged like clownfish do, or two adults would combine zygotes by mutually parasitising a non-sapient member of a different species in which the offspring would grow until 'birth'.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I LIKE the stormcast. But to complain that they're plain is to not look at the level of detail on the models, and to bemoan the price is to fail to realise that they're bigger than terminators while having more options. The sheer volume of stuff in a Paladins kit is mindboggling.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

We don't know anything about the necrotyr other than they were humanoid and sickly. I kind of want GW to play with this more. Maybe they were hermaphroditic egg layers, or started out male and became female as they aged like clownfish do, or two adults would combine zygotes by mutually parasitising a non-sapient member of a different species in which the offspring would grow until 'birth'.

Another reason I want a "war in heaven" 6mm game, a necrontyr faction like that would be awesome.


I LIKE the stormcast. But to complain that they're plain is to not look at the level of detail on the models, and to bemoan the price is to fail to realise that they're bigger than terminators while having more options. The sheer volume of stuff in a Paladins kit is mindboggling.

Yeah, they are more like the equivilent of Deathwing really. I like em' but I think some people find them plain more due to the similarity between the units as many of therm are just weapon-swaps iwth little else to differentiate them but same could be said for space marines to be fair. Wth the extremis release they've already added a couple of more unique units so I think itll just take time for them to build up variety. As for price - I got ten liberators from the starterset for £15, so there is at least a more affordable option to build an army of them.

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah, they are more like the equivilent of Deathwing really. I like em' but I think some people find them plain more due to the similarity between the units as many of therm are just weapon-swaps iwth little else to differentiate them but same could be said for space marines to be fair. Wth the extremis release they've already added a couple of more unique units so I think itll just take time for them to build up variety.

That's the big issue, really. It was like taking the same guy and swapping out his weapons, or attaching wings. Even the characters looked like that. It was actually less variety than Space Marines, where characters stand out more and you also have Scouts in the mix. If you have just an army of standard Marines, then yeah, that'll look pretty boring.

[Mr Mystery]

First Warhammer World AoS exclusive miniature, also the first Stormcast Eternal sculpt sans helmet. And they've painted him as a person of colour

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/WHW_ERRANT_QUESTOR_01-face-square.jpg

It may be slowly, but things are improving at GW.

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Reminds me of this badass, but elevated by Sigmar

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/spartacus/images/0/00/Oenomaus_the_Gladiator.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140303160723