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FaultyVoodoo
04-16-2010, 01:18 PM
Iron warriors, night lords, alpha legion, and word bearers were not present at Istvaan III. How did they deal with their own loyalists?

Spetzna909
04-16-2010, 02:44 PM
That's a good question, but I assume we will find out as more of the Horus Heresy novels are released. Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors have yet to have their own novels. From what I have read officially, all 18 Legions are to have their own books, if not more than one.

Alpha Legion's took place long before Horus went to the Davin moon where his fall from grace started, and from the way Legion ends, you aren't entirely sure if they actually went FULLY traitor. It seems that they agreed to fight against the loyalists in the future because they knew if the Emperor lost, Chaos would burn itself out. They did not necessarily choose the right side, but in their eyes, they didn't choose the wrong side either.

For the most part, loyalists inside the Traitor legions were Terran born, part of the Legions before the Primarchs were discovered. We know nothing yet about pre-heresy Night Lords or Iron Warriors yet, but I assume we shall find out. The Word Bearers however were a strange legion. There zealot like obsession with the Emperor got them in trouble. When the Emperor told them to chill out and not be so fanatical, I assume the entirety of the legion was pissed, making them easier to turn from the Emperor.

Like I said though, I am sure we will be told in the future books, but if I had to have a theory now, I would just assume that the loyalists were delt with in a much smarter fashion than what was done in Istvaan III. I would not have bothered with putting them on the planet, fully suited, and fully supplied with weapons. I would have gone after them when they were on the ships. You would have been able to pin them down during their down time. ****, or just have their Primarch's tell them to go to the embarkation deck and jettison them into space. For Horus to be the "Warmaster", his plan for getting rid of the loyalists on Istvaan III was the long and hard road. Made no sense if you ask me.

eldargal
04-17-2010, 02:27 AM
Easy, the following squad by squad:

"Alright, if you love the Emperor, raise your hand!"

"Ok, so thats Brothers Bob, Cecil, Gerald and Dwayne. Would you mind awfully standing against that wall over there? Splendid, well done."

Sound of rapid firing bolt guns.

RogueGarou
04-17-2010, 03:11 AM
There are elements of the purge that have not been revealed as of yet. And for the four Legions of the second wave of Marines sent to bring Horus to task, their purge had already happened. I see it as possible that most or all of the Alpha Legion fell into step with their Primarchs. The Night Lords may have been purging their forces for weeks or months given their hard-bitten, cynical personalities. Ditto for the Iron Warriors plus they had perfect excuses for removing Loyalists. Their siege troops could easily push Loyalists to the fore during particularly brutal sieges and allow the enemy to exhaust themselves killing the Loyal Marines and then allowing the survivors to fall to a well-timed bit of friendly fire. The Word Bearers probably had the longest amount of time to thin their ranks and to quietly convert the most of their troops to Chaos. They may not have had to resort to such extreme measures to cull any Loyalists and may have gone into the Heresy with the largest number of Traitor Marines.

Horus' plan did not go without a hitch, though. Putting the Marines from all of the vessels and legions on the planet at once, put them all in one place to be destroyed. That would send a clear message to anyone who remained loyal but were undetected during the purge. Also, the Legions were not the same as the Chapters known at the present. A Chapter was a segment of a Legion and a Legion could have many Chapters or their equivalent. For example, I believe in the early Horus Heresy novels some troops are mentioned as serving in the 17th Chapter of the Luna Wolves. That would put the Legion nominally at around 17,000 Marines. If I am remembering that correctly. In A Thousand Sons 5 Fellowships are listed at around 6,000 Marines, again if my memory serves on that number. Just telling half of your troops to simply turn to the guy next to them with the "kick me" sign taped to his back and shoot him in the head would not be too wise, especially on a starship.

Plus, it was not only the Marines who had to be purged, there were a lot of Imperial Army soldiers to deal with as well as some questionable loyalties among the Titan Legions. The idea of staging the invasion to get all of these people in one place and then devastating the planet from orbit would have prevented losing any of his valuable assets, Marines loyal to him. Imagine one Army trooper catching on to the fact that anyone loyal is being executed around the ship he is on... not too unreasonable for that one trooper to sabotage the munitions on board the ship and cripple or destroy that ship and maybe do a lot of damage on the way out.

Also imagine that a seriously angry Marine, even unarmed could probably kill some of his brother Marines in unarmed combat. And if some of these very well-trained, highly motivated super soldiers managed to escape their execution, the vessel they were on could very likely turn into a pyre as they wreaked their vengeance in the name of the Emperor. Why risk that loss of materiel and Marines? Instead, Horus was planning on giving the Loyalists the Aliens treatment: Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Unfortunately, Angron could not sit by and watch the fireworks from space. He HAD to get to grips and slaughter any survivors. It was very personal to Angron that all signs of weakness and loyalty to the Emperor within the World Eaters be expunged more vigorously. His decision to begin assaulting the planet denied Horus the nuke 'em all option as he would also wipe out some of the hardest assault specialists around. And he would need the World Eaters and their insane devotion to assaulting the enemy at close quarters. If he had gone ahead with his plan, it is entirely possible that the Siege of Terra would not have breached the Emperor's Palace in time because the World Eaters were all dead or crippled. If it had worked out as he masterminded it, then the handful of surviving Loyalists would never have been retrieved and gone on to fulfill their destiny.

Baron Spikey
04-17-2010, 01:28 PM
It's explained in Dark Creed that the Word Bearers killed all those marines in the Legion of Terran origins and that all the Colchis born brothers turned traitor with their Primarch.

trjames
04-17-2010, 02:55 PM
"Alright, if you love the Emperor, raise your hand!"

"Ok, so thats Brothers Bob, Cecil, Gerald and Dwayne. Would you mind awfully standing against that wall over there? Splendid, well done."

Did you intend this to be read in the voice of John Cleese? Because really, I can't fathom it any other way.

Lord Lorne Walkier
04-24-2010, 06:23 PM
It's explained in Dark Creed that the Word Bearers killed all those marines in the Legion of Terran origins and that all the Colchis born brothers turned traitor with their Primarch.

In tales of Herasy there is a short story with the Word Berors. In it thee is a loyalest WB, Sor Talgron, Captain 34th Company who is leaned on by the Lorgar. I think he may have stayed loyal in the end.

FaultyVoodoo
04-25-2010, 02:55 PM
In tales of Herasy there is a short story with the Word Berors. In it thee is a loyalest WB, Sor Talgron, Captain 34th Company who is leaned on by the Lorgar. I think he may have stayed loyal in the end.

Eh, I doubt it. Take Lorgar's power at conversion, and combine it with the father son relationship of a primarch to his Legion, and I think it's very unlikely Talgron resists corruption in the end.

rkiviman
04-25-2010, 02:56 PM
In the Word Bearers they were already recruiting the dregs from their home planet to fill their ranks. Their loyalty was to the chapter and Primarch not the Emperor.

Lord Lorne Walkier
04-26-2010, 05:31 PM
Eh, I doubt it. Take Lorgar's power at conversion, and combine it with the father son relationship of a primarch to his Legion, and I think it's very unlikely Talgron resists corruption in the end.

Can not the same be said for Horus and Fulgrim? Why then did they have to do what they did on Istavaan III?

Marshal2Crusaders
04-26-2010, 07:55 PM
However it happened, 'Anakin's Betrayal' from Ep. 3 played in the background.

FaultyVoodoo
04-26-2010, 08:57 PM
Because Horus and Fulgrim both became aloof and isolated the loyalist parts of their legions. If you recall from False Gods (or whichever the one is after Davin) Loken barely ever saw Horus and the mournival was disbanded. Fulgrim was slowly becoming more and more corrupt and garish to the point of insanity by the time of Istvaan.

Lorgar however, simply shut himself up in his room for a month while everyone in his legion was aware that his heart was broken for some reason, and when he did reveal himself in Scion of the Storm he was warm and understanding toward Talgron's confusion. I'm sure Erebus helped. Kor Phaeron just reminds me of Abbaddon though

mr1029384756
09-20-2010, 04:46 AM
Because Horus and Fulgrim both became aloof and isolated the loyalist parts of their legions. If you recall from False Gods (or whichever the one is after Davin) Loken barely ever saw Horus and the mournival was disbanded. Fulgrim was slowly becoming more and more corrupt and garish to the point of insanity by the time of Istvaan.

Lorgar however, simply shut himself up in his room for a month while everyone in his legion was aware that his heart was broken for some reason, and when he did reveal himself in Scion of the Storm he was warm and understanding toward Talgron's confusion. I'm sure Erebus helped. Kor Phaeron just reminds me of Abbaddon though

Lorgar got reprimanded by the Emperor for both his faith in his being a god (ie Lorgar penned the Lecto Divinatus) and because he spent much of the Crusade preaching his beliefs to the masses, to allow for easier conversion and less loss of life. In short, he got *****ed out for grinding his section of the war effort to a halt because he was "too compassionate".

Kinda says something about Horus, eh?

mysterex
09-23-2010, 01:34 AM
As far as I recall it doesn't state that the remaining loyalists on Istavaan III actually died. It left with them waiting for the oncoming orbital bombardment while Rylanor was guarding something in the basement.

I'm waiting to see if their actual fate is revealed.

Valkerie
09-23-2010, 02:46 AM
Can not the same be said for Horus and Fulgrim? Why then did they have to do what they did on Istavaan III?


Two reasons that I can think of.

One. They might not have had the time to convert all the Loyalists in the Legions before the planned assault on Terra.

Two. It makes for a better story.:)

Lord Lorne Walkier
09-25-2010, 06:32 AM
In tales of Herasy there is a short story with the Word Berors. In it thee is a loyalest WB, Sor Talgron, Captain 34th Company who is leaned on by the Lorgar. I think he may have stayed loyal in the end.





Well after Reading two of the WB novels, Dark Creed and Apostle, i was WRONG. Sor Talgron, Captain 34th Company became the Dreadnought /Warmonger.

cobra6
10-06-2010, 06:42 PM
Sor Talgron turns traitor - there is a picture of him in HH Vol IV: Visions of Death, pp. 53, and he is as chaos as can be. He was also the leader of the Word Bearers contingent that Lorgar had sent to the Solar System, and later was with the WB's that participated in Istvaan V (I'm pretty sure..)

Of course, there are multiple pics of Tariq Torgadon as a mutated chaos worshiper in the HH art books, and I remember he died a loyalist on Istvaan III, so who knows.

Speaking of Istvaan V, perhaps the last 4 Traitor Legions didn't "do" their loyalists there as part of the Dropsite Massacres?