The much Maligned Lasgun

[grimmas]

I've been considering Lasguns of late. I know, l know not the most exciting of topics but I do this to wind down 🙂. This all started after viewing the 173rd comedy cartoon on a Facebook group I frequent about "flashlights" oh the mirth. It's one of those tired old jokes that needs to go, I blame the red period (which is my default option with most things). Popular myth is that this is a nickname that Guardsmen give lasguns. It isn't it's a quip made by Ian Strickland in an article on the Veteran skills in the second edition Imperial Guard Codex. Something about the life expectancy of a human armed with a flashlight in a galaxy full of Orks, space marines and daemons (apologies I can't give a full reference and quote after a regrettable incident with an ex my WD collection is missing a chunk). It's was quite funny at the time but after being endlessly rehashed over the last 20 years it's become a bit tired.

Lasguns far from being a joke are actually superb pieces of military hardware. They are easy to mass produce (once the tech is in place). They are supremely reliable containing very few moving parts, requiring no lubricant and they don't have ejection ports or open barrels that can be fouled or allow dirt in them. Lasers are also very very accurate. They travel at the speed of light for a start that means they will reach the target nearly instantaneously. Light also won't be effected by levels of gravity that a human soldier could tolerate so the the shots won't drop so no parabolic effect. So what the weapons is aimed at it's going to hit. The Lasguns is also individually versatile, add a long barrel and it's a sniper weapon (I'm assuming it increases the lethal range as it won't make any difference to the accuracy ), stick a hotshot power pack in it and it becomes an elephant gun or overload it and it become an explosive.

Their ammunition is a battery that can by mass produced in one piece they don't need for bullets and magazines. The battery contains enough juice for 100 shots and is smaller and lighter than the magazines that appear on auto/bolt weapons while providing a greater capacity. These power packs could also be combined to power the larger Las weapons which would drain them instantly but this may have been altered (annoyingly)bro the larger weapons needing special power packs. However they can be recharged easily either from a power source, left in the sun or popped on the fire. This is amazing. Basically means that Guardsmen are incredibly self sufficient they can resupply themselves with ammo.

It's much maligned stopping power is also very good. Torso shots to humans are considered so likely to be fatal they aren't worth treating. A good hit is also capable of severing limbs. That takes massive energy to achieve. In modern terms you are looking at .50 BMG to achieve that (which I know after doing a ballistic first aid course run by an ex Army medic which left me knowing far too much detail on these things) . Which incidentally is a round considered massive overkill when used on people it's for shooting light armoured vehicles, planes and non hardened buildings. Yes there are things tougher than human beings in the Galaxy but when you consider they are just as likely to be facing off against other people that isn't so much of an issue. In fact the only mention of its lack of firepower is that it isn't the most powerful weapon the imperium possesses but when you think about what it's being compared to that's not a terrible indictment.

The bolt gun is a ludicrous weapon. It fires a .75 (20mm) round, that's massive for anti personnel purposes it's taking the aforementioned .50 (12.7mm) round and adding a 7.62 mm to it. Incidentally a 7.62 round is considered to be the top end of what the military uses for anti personnel use currently. It is also armour piercing and explosive. Not fragmentation mind you, mass reactive so it explodes inside the target. On people it would literally blow them to pieces.

Here's a picture of something from real life that uses a 20mm explosive round.

17556


Yep that's in a turret on a ship.

Bear In mind as well how strong that makes flak armour in comparison with what we have available today. Modern body armour would not stop a .50 cal round.

Of course I am ignoring game rules as they don't really represent he background too well and each increment represents a massive variety. For example S3 represents the whole range of human strength that quite a range.

So TL:DR Lasguns are great, yes they aren't very powerful I'm comparison to Boltguns but that because boltguns are so rediculously powerful.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Lasguns are a Soldier's weapon. Reliable, easily maintained, near infinite ammo. Very, very little not to like. NATO has adopted a standard round size for ease of supply on cooperative operations. Lasguns are that writ large. No matter the pattern, the bog standard powerpack will fit your Lasgun - and that keeps you fighting. You can also carry more of them about your person without being ridiculously weighed down. Their relative ease of recharge means your logistics don't have to worry about the footsloggers, and can instead focus their attention on the big guns, like your Artillery.

It's a damned near perfect weapon, especially for an outfit like the Astra Militarum where there will be thousands of the things going off at once - each shot needs to have an impact, but doesn't have to be a straight kill on it's own.

Bolters? That's a terror weapon. It's about the psychology of it. Not only are your mates exploding around you in showers of gore, but the guy that's doing it? No camouflage. No attempt to hide. Big, bright primary colours. They're also a sod to maintain, ridiculously heavy in themselves, and require specialist ammo that's damned hard to come by for the most part. Bolters are a weapon you use when every shot has to be a kill shot. Even a partial hit can de-limb an opponent. Missed their central body mass and head? Don't worry, you took their legs clean off anyways.

[Morgrim]

If you play the FFG RPGs like Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader you soon discover that lasguns and flak armour are really nice things to have. They're very nice weapons to use against other humans, and the majority of the enemies the bog standard troopers are fighting are likely to be other humans. And in enough number they do a decent job against most other things as well.

Okay, so maybe not heavy armour (that's when you need your own, but they're GOOD at that too) or daemons (who are considered near universally someone else's problem. Preferably someone in power armour.)

[Charon]

For example S3 represents the whole range of human strength that quite a range.


Except that it does not. It represents the AVERAGE of a well trained and physically fit human beeing.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Compared to today, the Lasgun is a miracle weapon as you say. No recoil, no parabolic trajectory, no flight time worth noting. It's most perfectly accurate weapon you could give to a normal human. Add onto that its simple design, robust construction and beautiful reliability, and it's the kind of weapon born to be cranked out by the billion. Flak Armour as well is pretty great in comparison to modern armour, given that the Bolt gun effectively fires anti light vehicle rounds, so Flak Armour losing out to that is pretty fair.

It's the AK47 of the 41st Millennium. Anyone can be taught to use it, anyone can maintain it, and it can be found almost everywhere in some form or another.

Sadly, it's an incredibly weak weapon in-universe. It hasn't got the stopping power to put down a scary target, and it doesn't have the penetrative capability to get through any armour of note. To an Astartes, they're little more than a nuisance in almost all instances.

By comparison, the Bolt Gun is a horrific weapon intended to be used on anything the Legiones Astartes came across, and is versatile as a result. Unlike the Lasgun, specialist ammo can be loaded in. This is more versatile than simply making it a Sniper or a Hotshot, it can now fire micro-plasma rounds, horrifically acidic rounds or airburst rounds. A soldier can switch between these as fast as reloading, and an Astartes with their skill, reflexes and training can take this weapon and make it a slayer of armies.

This is handy considering that against a Carnifex, for example, both weapons are actually just as effective as each other. Bolt weapons, despite their ludicrous design, can't reliably put down a Necron Warrior or Tau Crisis Suit, nor can they do much more than antagonise a 'Fex unless you have a stupendous number of them. They only kill an Ork half of the time as well, and those come in huge numbers.

TL; DR, 40K has some ridiculous weapons, such that these two awesome weapons are actually the most banal and weak in the setting, arguably. I mean, the Pulse Rifle is better than both, and the Shuriken Catapult is insanity, and that's without going beyond standard Troop weapons...

[grimmas]

Except that it does not. It represents the AVERAGE of a well trained and physically fit human beeing.


Ok sort of. It represents imperial soldiers. But it still ranges from fopish Mordian Iron guard officers all the way up to baby Ogryn Catachans (Harker withstanding but that's Codex creep for you) it's still quite a range. No unaugmented human being is as supposed to be as strong as a Marine and even then it's very very rare, remember Qurze over powering the enhanced bodyguard fella in Galaxy in Flames.

Good point Morgrim the RPGs do a much better job of showing the detail of these things. Inquistor did a very good job of showing how scary a Space Marine is for example

[Djbz]

On the subject of Lasguns I'd love for them to make rules for Triplex Lasguns, which are referenced in the background of the last Imperial Guard codex(And are used in the Gaunt's Ghost novels)
Being able to turn the lasgun power up or down (up for stronger, better Ap and range at expense of shots. Down for more shots at the expense of strength and range).
Something like
Triplex Lasgun (Low power) Range 18" Str 2 Ap- Assault 3 (or 4)
Triplex Lasgun (Max power) Range 30" St 4 Ap4 Heavy 1

[Mr Mystery]

Inquisitor only showed that a Space Marine did more damage flicking individual bolt rounds at people than actually firing them :p

[grimmas]

Inquisitor only showed that a Space Marine did more damage flicking individual bolt rounds at people than actually firing them :p

Yep and running around clapping people's heads into red mist.

[JamesP]

Inquisitor only showed that a Space Marine did more damage flicking individual bolt rounds at people than actually firing them :p

In a Deathwatch game we did, a Space Shark destroyed a Rogue Psyker by picking up a stunned Marine and throwing him at the psychic abomination. We couldn't agree on who got to paint the kill marking on their armour afterwards.

[Mr Mystery]

My priest lost his noggin to an unprimed frag grenade. Which the cursed Astartes promptly picked back up and threw at someone else!

Managed to end his shenanigans in the end. I used Machine Curse (or whatever it was called) to switch off his powerplant....

[Psychosplodge]

From tumblr


Even if all else were even, lasguns would be superior to auto weapons for one simple reason: logistics.

Don’t laugh. That’s not the Imperium being cheap; tactics win battles. Strategy wins campaigns. Logistics wins wars.

Sure, an infantryman could carry a bolter… but how practical is it? Those things are huge - even the ones designed for humans. And .75 Calibre? That’s kissing cousins to walking around with a twenty millimeter cannon in your arms! Leaving aside the issue of the weapon’s unreasonable size, how much ammo could the average infantryman really be expected to hump around?

Really, bolters are only practical if you’re a Space Marine. Or Ibram Gaunt, I guess.

So why not autorifles?

Logistics again.

Your average modern infantryman is told he should be sent out into the world with 210 rounds of ammunition: six magazines on his LBE, and one in his rifle. Now, this sounds like a lot right up until the moment when someone starts shooting at you. At that point, you start realizing just how quickly you can burn through seven magazines.

Soldiers know this too, so they’ll grab whatever extra ammunition they can carry. Even at the outside, though, this usually just means another four mags or so and maybe a belt for the machine gun.

The machine gun, which eats through ammo like you wouldn’t believe, and weighs upwards of fifteen pounds when empty. Why carry it? Because rifles are really not all that great at sustained automatic fire. And even if they weren’t, thirty rounds doesn’t last long when you’re going all out.

Enter the humble lasgun.

With its high-capacity power cells. Lightweight. Durable. Each one capable of holding a hundred and fifty shots, according to Graham McNeill. And you can recharge one by leaving it out in the sun. Or throwing it into a fire.

With its variable power settings, capable of blowing an arm off at the top, or just punching a hole in you toward the bottom of the scale. Not to mention letting you extend the life of your power cell and speed up your rate of fire.

With its select fire trigger group, capable of semi and fully automatic fire.

With its incredible durability and reliability. Ten thousand shots before needing maintenance!

Why doesn’t the Imperial Guard have “machine gun” version of lasguns? They don’t need them. Every single trooper has a fully automatic weapon of phenomenal endurance capable of firing half again as many shots as your average GPMG at its highest setting, and more as you step down the power throughput.

Everyone has a machine gun. One heavier than any modern infantryman could possibly carry. And in a package weighing more than two pounds less than an empty M-16.

Everyone can carry more than a thousand rounds of ammunition on their person, and wouldn’t even need to clean their weapon after shooting through their basic combat load.

Everyone can get more ammo just by starting a fire and having lunch if they’re cut off from resupply. Though that wears out the cell… eventually.

And, in a pinch, you can fix bayonets and stab a heretic with one.

You don’t need to issue machine guns. Your troops have lasguns. You don’t need to ship mass quantities of physical ammunition. Your troops have lasguns. Send ‘em a generator. They can make their own. And even if you feel like sending them enormous quantities of cells, your ammunition will still weigh less and take up less space on the transport. Why? Your troops have lasguns!

Honestly, bolters may get all the glory, but lasguns are miracle weapons in their own right.

[grimmas]

WHAAAAT using tumblr as a source!!!!! I've never been so...... Oh hang on it agrees with me carry on, very sensible piece

😃

[Kirsten]

yeah, I love lasguns, I'd quite like to see more variety of them in game. if I were in 40k it would be my weapon of choice I think.

[grimmas]

Just as an aside the first time Lasguns were described in detail was the Confrontation game and they weren't actually Laser weapons at all. They fired energy "bullets" (probably like Star Wars blasters) that exploded in a burst of heat and light when they hit a target. This caused massive damage to exposed flesh but apparently could be discharged very easily by any form of armour and thick leaf cover (I could never work out why this was a thing in a game set I the necromundian underhive). Things did change fair soon after that and they were refluffed, as it were, into Laser weapons.

- - - Updated - - -


In a Deathwatch game we did, a Space Shark destroyed a Rogue Psyker by picking up a stunned Marine and throwing him at the psychic abomination. We couldn't agree on who got to paint the kill marking on their armour afterwards.

That's possibly one of the most Space Marine of things I've heard. Did the the Space Shark mutter "We bring death" as he bowled away?

[Psychosplodge]

WHAAAAT using tumblr as a source!!!!! I've never been so...... Oh hang on it agrees with me carry on, very sensible piece

😃

I had to spend an entire five minutes looking for where I'd seen that.

[Path Walker]

Yup.

No matter the pattern, the bog standard powerpack will fit your Lasgun - and that keeps you fighting.

Actually, according to Gaunt's Ghosts, where a Munitorum mix up leaves the 1st and Only with the wrong pattern of battery pack, that's not strictly true.

But it doesn't invalidate anything you've said, it seems from that passage like there are maybe three types of power pack for all the various models of lasgun. A lasgun is an amazing weapon, if any modern army had them today, they'd be very difficult to contend with in a sustained ground war.

[Mr Mystery]

I stand duly corrected :)

They really are miracles of warfare. As has been said, there's very few moving parts to worry about. Other than a trigger and the catch holding in the power pack, I can't think of any that would be necessary.

Not only does this simplify maintenance, but in such a technologically ignorant setting as 40k, it prevents anyone getting curious and knackering their main weapon by tinkering too much.

They're presumably good to operate in any environment too (this might have been mentioned already).

[grimmas]

I always thought it was a case of Mr Abnett getting it wrong like he did with Colonel-Comissars. Power packs are STC so they should all be the same. Of course they seem to have forgotten about STCs a bit. Of course their might be variety between different STCs but it does affect the standard part.

[Path Walker]

I always thought it was a case of Mr Abnett getting it wrong like he did with Colonel-Comissars. Power packs are STC so they should all be the same. Of course they seem to have forgotten about STCs a bit. Of course their might be variety between different STCs but it does affect the standard part.

Yeah I figured there were either several STC plans for lasgun power packs or that the STC had been corrupted over the millennia, changed as it's copied from world to world introducing inconsistencies. Shows the genius of design of the lasgun while also allowing for the dunder-headed-ness of the Imperium.

[grimmas]

Makes sense. The Imperium is a particularly stupid, bureaucratic and unfeeling organisation none more so than the munitorium

[Jewelfox]

Re: Lasguns severing limbs, I don't think that's something that a laser with an AK-47's stopping power could feasibly do? Because it's not a ballistic weapon; there's no kinetic energy or physical impact, it won't knock things back or blast them to pieces. It gives things a nasty burn very quickly. There'd be a puff of smoke and a charred target, like in the original V miniseries IIRC, but they might actually fall forward after being shot.

Tau pulse and Imperial plasma, on the other hand, might have a kinetic "jolt" to their impacts, if only because of the magnetic sheath around the superheated charge.

(Someone on page 2 brought up the possibility that lasguns actually do fire physical shots of some kind, despite the name. I believe this is how the Star Wars fan community resolved the issue.)

Re: Bolters being used against tanks, not really? Not unless it's something weak like a Rhino, and then you'd be more likely to immobilize it via causing treads to dislodge. Explosive rounds are kind of crap against modern main battle tanks, and are better used against light armour (i.e. METAL BAWKSES without composite plating) or buildings and infantry formations. Which is actually reflected pretty well in-game, with their S4 / AP5 and with glances and stuff.

(I like the "weapon of terror" aspect, it reminds me of Stargate SG-1 something fierce.)

Finally, not to rain on anyone's parade ... but given the average IG soldier's life expectancy, wouldn't it have been better to give them something with fewer rounds and less reliability but more stopping power? o_O Just something that occurred to me while reading this ...

[Haighus]

I believe the small explosion caused by a lasgun shot is due to the laser heating up the affected flesh quickly enough to cause the water and blood and flesh to vapourise and explode outward. I think this is also why they have poor penetration (their biggest weakness), because they dissipate their energy into the first layer hit. I think this is the key difference to a .50 round- the .50 can go through a wall, a lasgun would just blast the wall a bit. In terms of stopping power, there is a rather nice quote from HH book 5: Tempest to cover this:
The metric for such personal arms was the Mars-Tellurian pattern Mk II-III lascarbine- having a registered mortality rate of 70% when striking an unarmoured human in the central body mass with a single strength discharge in optimum firing conditions, and mounting a rechargeable liquid metal core magazine able to fire eighty discharges before reloading was needed.This is the most standard definition of how effective a lascarbine should be.

Their only other weakness would be that their range is limited by environmental conditions- firing through smoke would reduce the range, although theoretically firing through the vacuum of space would mean near infinite range.

Re: boltgun rounds- they are not just explosive, they are designed to explode after penetration, so they would be pretty nasty against soft-skinned and lightly armoured vehicles as they could explode just under the armour plating.

- - - Updated - - -


Finally, not to rain on anyone's parade ... but given the average IG soldier's life expectancy, wouldn't it have been better to give them something with fewer rounds and less reliability but more stopping power? o_O Just something that occurred to me while reading this ...
The weapons are fully auto with no recoil, aside from perhaps some shaking with repeated discharge. Maybe have some beefy capacitors in them or something. I don't know how fast the weapons cycle, but they likely can fire off their magazine in a pretty short amount of time... Not to mention that for every 10, 20, 100 Guardspeople who die running off the dropship ramp, there is one who will become a vet and that reliability will come in real handy then. Also good for more banal tasks like crushing riots and insurgencies and small uprisings and other 'minor' threats compared to an Ork horde or a Dark Eldar raid.

[Jewelfox]

Good point about the environmental conditions!


Re: boltgun rounds- they are not just explosive, they are designed to explode after penetration, so they would be pretty nasty against soft-skinned and lightly armoured vehicles as they could explode just under the armour plating.


Well yeah, that's how a HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) shell works. And yeah, they're really only good against light armour, since that's about all they can penetrate. Thanks for the reminder, I kind of forgot that part.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the "smoke reduces range" thing could be used to Forge The Narrative as like a weapon-specific special rule or something. >_>; A handicap on the IG, to put them in some kind of Aliens-style situation.

[Haighus]

Good point about the environmental conditions!



Well yeah, that's how a HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) shell works. And yeah, they're really only good against light armour, since that's about all they can penetrate. Thanks for the reminder, I kind of forgot that part.

EDIT: Now I'm wondering if the "smoke reduces range" thing could be used to Forge The Narrative as like a weapon-specific special rule or something. >_>; A handicap on the IG, to put them in some kind of Aliens-style situation.

HEAT rounds will penetrate thick armour if it is simple steel armour though- just look at the effect of panzerfaust rounds on Soviet tanks in WWII. They are pretty useless against modern tank armour compounds such as Dorchester block though, as these have been designed specifically to block HEAT rounds, mainly due to just how effective HEAT rounds are against steel plate.

Hmmm that could make for a cool scenario, although Guardsmen are pretty weak in the setting as is, I'm not sure if they need more of a handicap against things like Genestealers, if you were to make an Aliens-style mission in corridors and stuff... :D

[grimmas]

The .50 comparison was more the damage it caused to flesh particularly the limb severing bit. Lasguns do lack penetration. The damage they cause is probably quite different to a conventional round. There will still be the permanent cavity as the beam travels through but there will be a secondary permanent area of burn injury casused by the heat of the beam (which wouldn't happen with a bullet) but no bleeding.

The Milita minimum standard is just that though a minimum standard, 70% fatalities from a single shot is quite high though (does depend on where in the centre torso one is hit),the Guards does by and large possess better weapons than that (150shots per battery being the current average). Still it is a great bit of info. The Milita list is probably the best way of representing the real variation of the Guard.

Standard bolt rounds are not heat though they are Standard (well with 41M giggery pokery) HE AP with a hardened tip. The penetration is from the Kenetic impact rather than the explosive which come into play after penetration. Much like AP rounds in Tank and Naval guns during the start of WWII.

[Jewelfox]

This thread has been really educational for me!

Re: a scenario, maybe these are like "main character" IG veterans who've been chased into (or are pursuing things into) an underground complex? And have been subject to protracted fighting already, and are running low on ammo.

You could have things like a hazy mist over the ground layer, intermittent steam vents that deal damage and act as hard cover against lasguns, fires that give you a handful more rounds for your hotshot weapon if you end your turn next to them ... or instead of keeping track of ammo just say you run out on a To-Hit of 1, and can replenish your stock at a fire. Or maybe you have infinite normal shots, but the fires let you overcharge and do a hotshot blast in the next Shooting phase.

It'd be like Deathwatch meets Aliens. ^^;

EDIT: Ooh, what if you could draw LOS from a reflective surface in view?

[Mr Mystery]

Presumably the Lasbolt would be too high a temperature for reflection. Rather than just bouncing off the mirror, it would melt it, so if there was any reflection, it would be robbed of it's potency.

[grimmas]

Presumably the Lasbolt would be too high a temperature for reflection. Rather than just bouncing off the mirror, it would melt it, so if there was any reflection, it would be robbed of it's potency.

Don't some of the RPGs have reflective upgrades for armour to increase their effectiveness against laser/energy weapons?

[Mr Mystery]

No idea. But it also requires that there's no kinetic element to the shot, or any other disruption effect.

With Lasrounds being as hot as they are, would it not be feasible for the beam to at least partially melt the reflective surface before impact? Serious question. I can't science, me.

And it's a good job I can't science. The things I would science!

[Haighus]

M-35 Galaxy pattern lasgun has a rate of fire of 220 shots per minute according to Lexicanum, so it could exhaust it's charge in about 40 seconds of continual fire with a 150 shot powerpack. That is a considerable volume of firepower for every member of a squad to be armed with.

[grimmas]

Yeah an awesome amount. The Infantrymens uplifting primer concurs with Lexicanium, I can't find my munitorium manual at the mo which would help.

As to the reflection thing all sorts of things can be done to light using prisms, lenses and mirror but I'm pretty sure that any mirror who need to be very clear with no imperfections or anything on it (difficult on a battlefield) to be able to reflect a high energy laser without being damaged. Any dirt or imperfections will absorb energy from the beam and be damaged. Physics was never my field and it's been a while since I've done any serious science.

[Path Walker]

Don't some of the RPGs have reflective upgrades for armour to increase their effectiveness against laser/energy weapons?

Inquisitor certainly had something similar, it was impregnated with reflective particles that robbed the laser of some of its energy, no idea how effective that would actually be though!

They're not GLITTER BOYS though,for that you have to go over to RIFTS, that was the name for their Power Armoured soldiers who had chromed suits to deflect lasers.

[Mr Mystery]

Thinking further, I'd like to bibble about how denigrating the Lasgun is to denigrate the sheer horror of the 41st Millenium.

If you only subscribe that they're flashlights, then you view the Imperial Guard as being poorly equipped. And if you do that, then it's simply incompetence that requires their vast numbers to be able to fight any war.

This paints the Imperium as knowingly wasteful for the sake of saving a few quid here and there.

But, when you credit the humble Lasgun as actually a really nice piece of kit to go to war with, then you can truly appreciate the scale of keeping the Imperium even half way safe. This is a weapon the equal or better of any standard sidearm we can produce today - and it's often barely adequate for the task required of it. This means you need hundreds of thousands of them in a war zone. If you fire a Lasgun at a human, there's a fair chance you'll take them out (dead or disabled isn't that important). Then we look at Ork Boyz. Tyranid Gaunts. Eldar in their 'lol it's paper' armour. Tau Firewarriors. The most ubiquitous firearm has trouble either because of natural resilience, or technological advantage. You and your squad mates are armed with miracles of weapon engineering, and it still takes concentrated volleys to drop even the least of your foes. Yet the brave men and women of the Astra Militarum get on with it as best they can. Their expected lifespan in the field may be laughably short, but that's not for want of decent equipment.

Hats off to the Astra Militarum, I say.

[grimmas]

Nice reasoning Mystery I like the perspective.

I was also thinking just how impressive the power packs are. In addition to all the benefits already mentioned there ability to storage energy in phenomenal. The amount of energy necessary to power a laser that can damage flesh so much is staggering especially as it can manage to do this 150 times.

[CoffeeGrunt]

In theory the 'kinetic impact' would be due to the laser ionising the air at the point of impact, creating a small plasma burst that would sear the target, create a small concussive blast, and inflict limited damage to nerves and electronics. Scaled-up, this kind of kit has been suggested for Riot Suppression by the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_energy_projectile) as a less-than-lethal weapon.

It overwhelms nerves at the impact point in proportion to the amount of plasma it generates, inducing incredible agony.

Plasma weapons would in theory have limited kinetic impact and rely on thermal transfer and electromagnetic effect to kill targets. Really they should have a Haywire to represent the latter, but y'know, balance. It's theorised that something like a Pulse weapon would still have a projectile in the core that would act as a containment unit keeping the projectile held together. Otherwise plasma weapons would effectively just be shotguns/flamers as the plasma dissipates without a field to hold it together.

However, it would be very easy to deflect plasma with electromagnetic fields, so it'd be unable to crack shielding.

As far as reflection, it's actually likely that it'd reflect or at least scatter some of the shot, in-proportion to the reflectivity of the material against the chosen wavelength. This means that you could tailor it towards the likely Infra-Red range of the Lasgun, but an Ultraviolet laser would probably be unaffected. The more reflective it is, the more energy is reflected and less is delivered to the actual material itself.

This means you'd have to be as big and shiny as possible, though, and as your armour scorched you'd become increasingly vulnerable.

[Morgrim]

Yeah, reflective surfaces would dull the power of the shot and, if flat and angled correctly, deflect some of it into a new vector that could hit something. But the reflected shot would be less intense and may spread more. Bouncing off a mirror could work to make a tactical shot hitting someone's eyes or another weak area but highly situational.

If the reflective surface is rounded like armour the energy will be dispersed and scattered more, so not bouncing off and hitting something else. Perfect reflection is HARD so the person behind the armour is still getting hit, but less severely. And again it holds as long as the reflectivity does so consecutive damage could ablate it.

So a REALLY SHINY chrome tank is going to be an effective defence against lasgun fire! Except that's heavy armour and you should be using different weapons against it. Bonus points if it's a chrome limo driven by genestealer cultists though. :p

[CoffeeGrunt]

Or being driven by Mad Max-inspired Cultists. :P

The flash-boiling of bodily fluids is another side-effect that would be pretty brutal. It'd most likely self-cauterise the wound but the effects of taking that kind of hit would be pretty horrific.

[grimmas]

Or being driven by Mad Max-inspired Cultists. :P

The flash-boiling of bodily fluids is another side-effect that would be pretty brutal. It'd most likely self-cauterise the wound but the effects of taking that kind of hit would be pretty horrific.


Very unpleasant and would probably be the thing that killed. The cauterising effect might also be irrelevant depending on how much of the bodily fluid is boiled. It the blood has effectively been destroyed it doesn't matter if it's still in the body or not it'll still mean a blood "loss" and hypovaleimic shock (like internal bleeding).

Some of the modern Laser weapons being tested don't damage things by melting them they do it by causing massive thermal stresses which causes things to break up or shatter. It's quite interesting to thhink that Lasguns would be damaging things in different ways depending on the make up of the target. It could also explain why their armour penetration ain't great.

[Deacon Ix]

Point to note:

In Necormunda the Ammo roll on a bolter is 6+, Autogun 4+ and Lasgun 2+, if a roll is failed the weapon is useless for the rest of the game.

The Lasgun and Autogun have exactly the same stats (bar the ammo roll) and the same cost and for the life of me I can't see why anyone would go for the Autogun, ever, certainly my next gang will be all Lasguns and Laspistols.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I always thought it'd be cool to have the different kinds of sci-fi weapon have different attributes that make them all equal in a game, rather than some being decidedly better than others. For example:

- Ballistic weaponry, defined as chemically-launched projectiles, would have the advantage of being incredibly cheap, reliable and plentiful. It can overwhelm shields with sufficient volume of fire, but has little anti-armour ability,
- Magnetic weaponry, (rail/coil.) These are expensive, have a slow rate of fire, and are bulky to transport. However, they're more accurate due to the higher velocity of the shot, as well as causing immense damage upon an impact with armour. Shields are mostly overwhelmed by the sheer kinetic force, but if they hold the energy is converted directly into heat, which causes limited damage that ignores shielding,
- Lasers are relatively cheap, and ignore shielding entirely as shielding can't block light. They can be wielded precisely to knock out certain systems, but their anti-armour ability is limited and they generate a lot of excess heat,
- Plasma weapons are easily blocked by shields, are expensive, generate heat and slow to fire. However, they cause immense damage against armour, and even when blocked by shielding still cause heat damage to a target. Their main advantage is electromagnetic effect on the target when they impact,
- Missiles are cheap and compact, and can track targets making them highly accurate. Otherwise the same as Ballistic weapons,

[grimmas]

Warzone ressurection uses a similar idea where a weapon has an overall damage type as it were and various units are strong/weak against certain types of damage. It not quite as detailed there's only 4 damage types but it is a long the lines you suggest.

[grimmas]

Just some further musings as I was looking through some stuff over the weekend.

The secondary "burn" effect of Lasguns (and other energy weapons) is something that is gone into in the Uplifting primer and in the treating Lasgun wounds appendix and the end of the Dark Millienium book. Seroious swelling and internal bleeding is also an issue.

The explosive reaction of an initial Lasgun hit is also covered apparently it can be so severe that the worlds caused can be mistaken for the hit from High Explosive rounds. Slightly morbid but it also details that a close range Las Pistol hit will burn away a persons face as well as puncturing the skull and fatally damaging the brain.

Laser weapons are really rather unpleasant, not that any weapons are particularly nice.

[Path Walker]

Point to note:

In Necormunda the Ammo roll on a bolter is 6+, Autogun 4+ and Lasgun 2+, if a roll is failed the weapon is useless for the rest of the game.

The Lasgun and Autogun have exactly the same stats (bar the ammo roll) and the same cost and for the life of me I can't see why anyone would go for the Autogun, ever, certainly my next gang will be all Lasguns and Laspistols.

Autoguns go dakka dakka dakka.

[Haighus]

Just some further musings as I was looking through some stuff over the weekend.

The secondary "burn" effect of Lasguns (and other energy weapons) is something that is gone into in the Uplifting primer and in the treating Lasgun wounds appendix and the end of the Dark Millienium book. Seroious swelling and internal bleeding is also an issue.

The explosive reaction of an initial Lasgun hit is also covered apparently it can be so severe that the worlds caused can be mistaken for the hit from High Explosive rounds. Slightly morbid but it also details that a close range Las Pistol hit will burn away a persons face as well as puncturing the skull and fatally damaging the brain.

Laser weapons are really rather unpleasant, not that any weapons are particularly nice.

2nd/3rd/4th degree burns with an area greater than ~25-30% total body area begin to cause systemic effects throughout the body, as they release enough inflammatory mediators to cause an inflammatory reaction across the body, leading hypovolaemic shock. Not dissimilar to an allergic reaction and anaphylaxis, which has a similar mechanism. The size of a burn caused by a weapon capable of instantly vapourising a large enough volume of body fluids to sever a limb is likely to be large, so a couple of hits from a lasweapon is likely to cause this effect, and would kill untreated humans in the next few days. So it is likely to be ultimately fatal just from peripheral hits too, which makes it an effective weapon at reducing the combat effectiveness of opposing forces.

Large burns in general are pretty slow and labour intensive to heal, so poorly equipped forces would likely suffer a lot. Well supplied forces in the 41st Millennium would likely be able to treat burns very effectively with skin grafts, as growing human tissue is a common occurrence in the 41st Millennium. Replacing limbs with bionics would also be an easy solution for wealthier/more important individuals like officers and veterans. Either way, this would require the trooper to be away from the front line for a few days at best, and weeks/months of rehab at worse.

[grimmas]

2nd/3rd/4th degree burns with an area greater than ~25-30% total body area begin to cause systemic effects throughout the body, as they release enough inflammatory mediators to cause an inflammatory reaction across the body, leading hypovolaemic shock. Not dissimilar to an allergic reaction and anaphylaxis, which has a similar mechanism. The size of a burn caused by a weapon capable of instantly vapourising a large enough volume of body fluids to sever a limb is likely to be large, so a couple of hits from a lasweapon is likely to cause this effect, and would kill untreated humans in the next few days. So it is likely to be ultimately fatal just from peripheral hits too, which makes it an effective weapon at reducing the combat effectiveness of opposing forces.

Large burns in general are pretty slow and labour intensive to heal, so poorly equipped forces would likely suffer a lot. Well supplied forces in the 41st Millennium would likely be able to treat burns very effectively with skin grafts, as growing human tissue is a common occurrence in the 41st Millennium. Replacing limbs with bionics would also be an easy solution for wealthier/more important individuals like officers and veterans. Either way, this would require the trooper to be away from the front line for a few days at best, and weeks/months of rehab at worse.


Thats just surface burns though isn't it? Surely the burns caused internally as the beam penetrated would necessitate the affect flesh to be removed. Also wouldn't it also irreparably damage organs? I suspect having your liver cooked inside you would be fairly fatal. It's a little beyond my medical knowledge.

[Haighus]

Thats just surface burns though isn't it? Surely the burns caused internally as the beam penetrated would necessitate the affect flesh to be removed. Also wouldn't it also irreparably damage organs? I suspect having your liver cooked inside you would be fairly fatal. It's a little beyond my medical knowledge.
Well, it does all depend on where the shot hits- if it cooks your heart and lungs you won't be getting very far anyway. 4th degree burns would likely require more than just a skin graft, and generally result in amputations today, but in 40k their tissue growth capabilities are extensive (if inconsistently applied across fluff) so they would be able to replace the underlying tissue with a greater efficacy too. If internal organs are lost that aren't immediately fatal to be without (like the liver or stomach), they would require the injured person to be put onto some kind of artificial support until a vat-grown replacement/transplant/mechanical alternative is installed. Of course, this all requires the soldier to survive long enough to reach a military hospital (livers bleed heavily for example, although this may be mitigated by the inherent cauterising effect of laser weapons), and also be sufficiently valuable to be worth attempting these processes on (considering the logistics of the Imperial Guard). Some things, like a bit of 'simple' flesh-grafting, are probably very commonplace in IG field hospitals given the tech level of the Imperium, but organ replacement is likely reserved for officers and veterans with more worth.

Oh, I should add that you are correct, debridement of dead tissue from burn wounds is necessary to promote healing and rescue the area immediately adjacent to a burn (known as the zone of stasis due to it's reduced blood supply).

On a side note, I do like how menacing the word 'debridement' sounds.

[grimmas]

Nasty.

Seems to add to its usefulness as a weapon. Even if it doesn't kill you outright it's going to cause wounds that will without very resource intensive treatment.

[Mr Mystery]

Autoguns go dakka dakka dakka.

And they were 5 creads cheaper.

That's the difference between Juve John entering battle with a stub gun, and Juve John entering battle in his pants.

[Haighus]

Nasty.

Seems to add to its usefulness as a weapon. Even if it doesn't kill you outright it's going to cause wounds that will without very resource intensive treatment.
Yeah. I think the downside of this is that thermally insulating and heat resistant armour and uniforms will somewhat mitigate the damage, but then the thread has already established how many discharges a lasgun can fire in a short space of time... :D It comes down to armour really being the biggest weakness of lasguns again.

It is a similar concept to tumbling bullets- they cause a larger wound than bullets which penetrate straight through, and therefore cause much more resource intensive wounds to treat. I believe that the bullets used by M16's were known as 'poison bullets' by some of their opponents for this reason?

It was AK74 rounds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.45%C3%9739mm

[grimmas]

Yeah larger exist wounds as well and bullets do drag a lot of muck and dirt into wounds.

The US has developed anti personal Laser weapons which are designed to blind rather than cause fatal injures as this will cause a massive drain on resources and morale. Basically a blind soldier is more damaging to the enemy than a dead one. They can't fight and they need to be looked after.

Of course against the Geneva convention which states that weapons must be designed to kill rather than maim but that'd go out of the window if they were truly threatened.