Heavy stubbers.

[Haighus]

What are peoples thoughts on heavy stubbers? I personally feel they are an underused weapon in 40k forces. Imperial Guard and Inquisition can use them only as a pintle mount on vehicles, Chaos cultists can use them as a special weapon too. This is pretty much the entirety of heavy stubber use in GW publications. FW fares a little better- Death Korp of Krieg can also take them twin-linked as a heavy weapon platform, and DKoK Grenadiers can take one as a special weapon, and the Lost and the Damned list in particular has them all over the place as both a weapons team and a special weapon.

I think that the Imperial Guard codex should also have access to heavy stubbers in the same way as the Lost and the Damned list- as special or heavy weapons. The background in Black Library books and the like has heavy stubbers appearing all over the place, as they are simple to make, simple to produce ammo for and simple to maintain and operate, yet this is not borne out in the models. Fischig uses one a few times in the Eisenhorn series, for example. I would love the option for a 5pt heavy stubber weapons team, just for the fluffiness (and cheapness) of it, with more elite units such as Veterans and Company command squads (and Inquisitorial henchmen) perhaps being able to take heavy stubbers as special weapons for the same price (both heavy weapon team and special weapon heavy stubbers are 5pts in the Lost and the Damned list).

What are other peoples' thoughts on this?

[grimmas]

I agree there should be a much more available weapon. I'd say as a special weapon across the board. I think the lack of variety in Guard Regiments is a shame generally it's supposed to be a very varied organisation but this isn't really reflected that much. The Militia rules in FWs Fifth HH book are much more like it. I was hoping when they started up FW were really going to treat us with lots of conversion/upgrade sets for the guard but they seem to have been side tracked by Astartes. Still the militia rules give me hope.

I've always thought it a bit odd that Guard have heavy bolters but not multi lasers in squads as well surely as they run off power packs they would be a more suitable heavy weapon for Lasgun equipped Guards men. The same would go for Autogun equipped Guard surely the commonality with heavy Stubber would assist. Much like how quite a lot of squad level support weapons now uses the same ammunition as the basic weapons at the moment.

Regardless I also agree that a simple low tech but reliable Heavy weapon would be a popular choice.

[Haighus]

Multi-laser heavy weapons certainly would make a lot of sense- they could share their power-supply logistics with that of lascannon. I think the power packs required for multilasers are far larger than those required for lasguns though, so there wouldn't be any commonality there other than in laser weaponry maintenance and training in using the weapons (no shot leading, minimal recoil etc with lasers).

The autogun/lasgun differences mainly come down to maintenance and resupply I think. they are functionally similar in terms of damage output, but lasguns are far more reliable (look at the old Necromunda rules for evidence of that) and the lasgun power-packs can be recharged with sunlight, or by a fire (and speed charged by being dunked in a fire), whereas autogun ammo cannot be replaced with logistical resupply. So lasguns are more versatile and reliable. This isn't to say that there aren't any autogun equipped Guard regiments, I am sure there are many, but the lasgun is a superior weapon overall and easy to produce, so autogun Guard regiments are probably in the minority. Would be nice for a fluffy rules option just because though. Likewise would be cool if the unit entry fro Chaos cultists also allowed them to be equipped with lasguns or autoguns just for greater conversion possibilities. I suspect most people wouldn't care, but legally cultists cannot use lasguns.

[Arkhan Land]

back in the olden days heavy stubbers were a far more universally found weapon, but it was also a time when the Eldar still had lascannons and plasma guns so...

[Kirsten]

I'd like to see heavy stubbers as special weapons for guard squads. I was hoping for it last few books really. it could fill a role like a BAR or tommy gun, in between a lasgun and a heavy bolter for example.

[Haighus]

I'd like to see heavy stubbers as special weapons for guard squads. I was hoping for it last few books really. it could fill a role like a BAR or tommy gun, in between a lasgun and a heavy bolter for example.
...or a Bren gun, which is something I want to do on a Guard project I have in the works. Whether a weapons team or a special weapon is the question though, in the rules and models currently we have both. I think a weapons team would basically be a special weapon, but with a dude following him round carrying extra ammo as opposed to some tripod mounted thing.

Special weapon examples:
http://megabitzshop.com/bilder/produkte/gross/Warhammer-40k-Bitz-Sturm-der-Vergeltung-Chaos-O-Kultist-Tetchvars-Sekte-Maschinengewehr.jpg
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99550105047_DKOKGrenadiersSpecialWeapons03.jpg
Heavy weapon team example:
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/pics/2009/jun/934722a.jpg

[Kirsten]

exactly. way back before the 5th edition book dropped I proposed an 18" heavy stubber version as a special weapon, and the regular 36" for heavy. essentially the difference between carrying it on your own or having the tripod.

[Haighus]

If GW ever get around to re-doing the now quite out-dated Cadian and Catachan infantry squads, I seriously hope they add a heavy stubber option.

- - - Updated - - -


exactly. way back before the 5th edition book dropped I proposed an 18" heavy stubber version as a special weapon, and the regular 36" for heavy. essentially the difference between carrying it on your own or having the tripod. Maybe the heavy stubber should be changed to 2/3 salvo?

[Kirsten]

yeah the invention of the salvo rules did open up some options

[grimmas]

I second this Salvo is the way to go.

Haighus I'd agree Lasguns are the superior weapon to autoguns. When I mentioned the Stubbers reliability it was in comparison to heavy bolters which like all bolt weapons seem to be a bit more complicated.

[Charon]

What are peoples thoughts on heavy stubbers? I personally feel they are an underused weapon in 40k forces.

Heavy stubbers are underused because there is no reason to pick them over a heavy bolter. Same point costs, lower S, no AP and still "heavy".
Most armies that have access to heavy stubbers can also pick heavy bolters or autocannons.

[Haighus]

Yeah, IIRC, bolters were a 6+ on the reliability roll-thingy in Necromunda. Auto and stub weapons were a 4+ and lasguns a 2+.

- - - Updated - - -


Heavy stubbers are underused because there is no reason to pick them over a heavy bolter. Same point costs, lower S, no AP and still "heavy".
Most armies that have access to heavy stubbers can also pick heavy bolters or autocannons.
They are half the price of a heavy bolter for almost all the armies that can take them. Heavy bolters and autocannons are 10pts, heavy stubbers are 5. The exception to this is on the DKoK Grenadiers, which stupidly pay 10pts, which is the same as the twin-linked heavy weapons team version in the same list.

Either way, the premise of my post was underused by GW when writing Codices, as they are rarely an option, as opposed to underused when they are an option. If they were a 5pt special weapon for Guard, I can see them being used a fair bit, as camping Guardsmen units, and Veterans especially would be able to put a significant number of shots down-field at a good range.

[Charon]

If they were a 5pt special weapon for Guard, I can see them being used a fair bit, as camping Guardsmen units, and Veterans especially would be able to put a significant number of shots down-field at a good range.

The Heavy Stubber (like the Autogun) is considered a low tech "common" weapon, while Lasguns, Heavy Bolter,... are military grade. We will only see more heavy stubbers in "cultist" style codices like Genestealer cult, probably even underfunded PDF or various chaos or armed imperial cults (civillians or militia).
Despite beeing on the lower spectrum of stats, the Imperial Guard is an elite army with the best equipment the imperium is capable of mass producing so they are not exactly a codex for heavy stubbers and auto-weapons.

[Kirsten]

yeah I'd love a unit of veterans with stubbers. especially with Victoria Miniatures new guns

17491

[Haighus]

The Heavy Stubber (like the Autogun) is considered a low tech "common" weapon, while Lasguns, Heavy Bolter,... are military grade. We will only see more heavy stubbers in "cultist" style codices like Genestealer cult, probably even underfunded PDF or various chaos or armed imperial cults (civillians or militia).
Despite being on the lower spectrum of stats, the Imperial Guard is an elite army with the best equipment the imperium is capable of mass producing so they are not exactly a codex for heavy stubbers and auto-weapons.
Well, apart from the Death Korps of Krieg (generally very well equipped regiments) and Guard tanks can take stubbers in large numbers. They already exist in the fluff, and are effective weapons. I think that without them being a standard option for Imperial vehicles I would agree with you though. They are heavily prevalent in Black Library, although that translates badly to the table-top a lot of the time.

I feel the Guard doesn't really have a snobbery about tech levels like that, but is more about effectiveness- lasguns are used over autoguns because they are more reliable in combat, not because they are more powerful for example. The Guard uses large numbers of autocannons, and uses grenade launchers and mortars and other simple, low-tech weaponry, so long as it works well.

Fluffwise, they also fill the SAW niche in squad weaponry that Guard options currently lack, which you would expect based on real militaries.

Kirsten, the Vic minis Bren guns are part of the reason I started this thread :D

[grimmas]

I think the Guard has to deal with what the munitorium give them. Lasguns are very much the best option but if they're not available the troops need guns. Like Haighus wrote earlier the number of Autogun equipped regiments is going to much fewer in comparison.

Interestingly during the Crusade there was a minimum standard for the basic weapons provided to human troops and levied units needed to attain that standard with whatever weapons they are equipped with. Of course that was 10000 yrs ago and before the Guard was actually formed, I just like the idea.

[YorkNecromancer]

In the HH Militia and Cults list (book 5), the HQ command squad can be up to ten guys, seven of which are bodyguards. Those bodyguards can all be equipped with Heavy Stubbers or Grenade Launchers, so it may not be possible to have the squad in 40K, but it's more than possible in 30K.

Also, their Heavy Weapon teams have the option for between 3 and 5 two-man Heavy Stubber teams, which are like the one-guy version, only they get twin-linked as well. So there's lots of opportunities for Heavy Stubbers in HH.

Not to mention, those Heavy Weapon teams are a Troops choice.

The Militia and Cults list is awesome.

[Haighus]

The Militia and Cults list is awesome.
It really is- I would like to make a Survivors of the Dark Age themed list with 3+ Svs and lots of S4 Lasrifles and S5 laslocks in Rhinos... Would be awesome. Like a Rogue Trader force brought into 7th Edition.

[Charon]

I feel the Guard doesn't really have a snobbery about tech levels like that, but is more about effectiveness- lasguns are used over autoguns because they are more reliable in combat, not because they are more powerful for example. The Guard uses large numbers of autocannons, and uses grenade launchers and mortars and other simple, low-tech weaponry, so long as it works well.

They actually have.
While Flak Armor does not seem to be very good it is better than sub-flak (Chaos Cultists, LatD) or well... nothing. And every imperial solider is AT least issued Flak armor. They do get the best equipment that is mass producable (on a 40k scale, so in the billions of units), reliable and sustainable.
"More powerful" does not mean "better stats". It could also mean "better rate of fire, easier to maintain, easier to get/carry/exchange ammunition (power pack vs solid amunition), more accurate,..." as the tabletop representation is an abstract. A Bolter does not only fire one round in the same time a battle tanks fires his ordnance.
If the guard uses "simpler low tech" it does just mean "this is still the best available option we can mass produce"

40k basically compares "elite" armies. You do not get to see "civillians" or huge cult armies on the battlefield, Just remember Necromunda and how hard it was to get your hands on, keep and maintain a Plasma gun.. or basically any special weapon. While the imperial guard in the tabletop is depicted as poor *******s and cannon fooder, they are all in all and compared to other humans excellently trained and equipped.

[Kirsten]

there is no reason at all why a guard army wouldn't be equipped with heavy stubbers.

[Charon]

there is no reason at all why a guard army wouldn't be equipped with heavy stubbers.

It is basically the same reason why our army are not using Bows, Flintlock Pistols or Hand Cannons anymore. They have better weapons. You will maybe still see some of them occasionally, but not as a staple.
And as heavy bolters are available to the Guard and are obviously easily mass produced, there is no need to issue Stubbers. You may find them on the black market or in some PDF armories (as you can find older and cheaper weapons in the hands of militias nowadays) but the Imperial guard as such does not have much use for it.
You may find some regiments who do still use them but as long as there is no more "doctrines" for Imperial guard, they go with the most average armory.

When the heavy stubber is the "to go" weapon for underfunded traitor guard and civillian cultist mobs, why should the Guard fall back to its use over the Heavy bolter?

[Haighus]

It is basically the same reason why our army are not using Bows, Flintlock Pistols or Hand Cannons anymore. They have better weapons. You will maybe still see some of them occasionally, but not as a staple.
And as heavy bolters are available to the Guard and are obviously easily mass produced, there is no need to issue Stubbers. You may find them on the black market or in some PDF armories (as you can find older and cheaper weapons in the hands of militias nowadays) but the Imperial guard as such does not have much use for it.
You may find some regiments who do still use them but as long as there is no more "doctrines" for Imperial guard, they go with the most average armory.

When the heavy stubber is the "to go" weapon for underfunded traitor guard and civillian cultist mobs, why should the Guard fall back to its use over the Heavy bolter?
I agree with your reasoning overall, but I don't think it fits the situation here: the heavy stubber fills a niche that isn't filled by the heavy bolter, which is a heavy weapon requiring 2 soldiers to handle. Heavy stubbers are capable of being wielded by a lone soldier. Renegade militia do often wield the heavy stubber in a team, presumably to increase the ammo capacity, but most instances of its use is as a one man weapon. This would allow it to combo with a heavy bolter in a squad.

The Guard and the Death Korps in particular do make widespread use of the heavy stubber anyway. DKoK are also particularly well equipped Regiments, having access to some rare equipment such as mole-launchers and Macharius super-heavy tanks, yet they still use the heavy stubber. It shows that the stubber isn't just considered a low-tech weapon suitable only for PDFs and militias, but an effective military tool. It just seems odd that Leman Russes and DKoK Grenadiers use them, but not Infantry squads who would get more use from the weapon.

(I appreciate that in rules terms, there is no functional difference between a heavy bolter and a heavy stubber, as both are heavy weapons, but in background terms, stubbers are far more portable).

[Kirsten]

exactly, the heavy stubber is different. why do some guard field krakk missile launchers instead of lascannons? because they are different. why do they have melta guns and not just multi meltas? different roles. with such a diverse armoury available, you can't really say that the heavy stubber is not to be used by guard.

[Ben_S]

the heavy stubber fills a niche that isn't filled by the heavy bolter, which is a heavy weapon requiring 2 soldiers to handle. Heavy stubbers are capable of being wielded by a lone soldier. Renegade militia do often wield the heavy stubber in a team, presumably to increase the ammo capacity, but most instances of its use is as a one man weapon. This would allow it to combo with a heavy bolter in a squad.


It doesn't take two men to handle a heavy bolter either. IG use two-men weapon teams (one firing the weapon, one a spotter/loader) as a matter of their training, not because it's necessary - which is why one can continue to use the weapon after his comrade is killed.

So, if IG infantry were allowed heavy stubbers, then I'd expect it to be in place of a heavy bolter (etc) as part of a two-man weapon team, not as a special weapon. And, if that were the case, there wouldn't really be any advantage over a heavy bolter.

[Haighus]

It doesn't take two men to handle a heavy bolter either. IG use two-men weapon teams (one firing the weapon, one a spotter/loader) as a matter of their training, not because it's necessary - which is why one can continue to use the weapon after his comrade is killed.

So, if IG infantry were allowed heavy stubbers, then I'd expect it to be in place of a heavy bolter (etc) as part of a two-man weapon team, not as a special weapon. And, if that were the case, there wouldn't really be any advantage over a heavy bolter.
With the heavy weapon teams, the implication is that the second soldier is needed for the weapon to be effective- the game simplifies this by ignoring it when a weapons team takes a wound, but the background has this as the second soldier being necessary to carry the weighty ammunition whilst the first soldier struggles with the weapon itself- a heavy bolter is the size of a Guardsman. The only IG soldier considered capable of hefting a heavy bolter alone is Sergeant Harker, and he is supposed to be a strong as a Space Marine.

On the other hand, plenty of soldiers are shown as being capable of wielding a heavy stubber single-handedly, and the only Imperial example wielding a heavy stubber does so too (there are Imperial twin-linked heavy stubber weapons teams). Although FW has provided the only example of both an Imperial wielding a heavy stubber, and the only heavy stubber weapons team in use (and most uses of heavy stubbers full stop frankly), so it is unclear which would be used, but more often than not, heavy stubbers are individual weapons.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99550105047_DKOKGrenadiersSpecialWeapons03.jpg
^This is much less cumbersome than this:
http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1sCmBFVXXXXXAXVXXq6xXFXXXK/221208184/HTB1sCmBFVXXXXXAXVXXq6xXFXXXK.jpg
In game terms, if they did choose to make heavy stubbers a weapon team, as the renegade stubber team, then they would just be a cheaper, worse heavy bolter. If they make them a special weapon, then they become a complement to a heavy bolter potentially.

[Charon]

With the heavy weapon teams, the implication is that the second soldier is needed for the weapon to be effective- the game simplifies this by ignoring it, but the background has this as the second soldier being necessary to carry the weighty ammunition whilst the first soldier struggles with the weapon itself- a heavy bolter is the size of a Guardsman. The only IG soldier considered capable of hefting a heavy bolter alone is Sergeant Harker, and he is supposed to be a strong as a Space Marine.

This is contradicted in most novels. The heavy bolter is basically always used by a "big strong solider". Other weapons are rerely mentioned with the exception of Missile Launchers where a "loader" seems to be required.


exactly, the heavy stubber is different. why do some guard field krakk missile launchers instead of lascannons? because they are different. why do they have melta guns and not just multi meltas? different roles. with such a diverse armoury available, you can't really say that the heavy stubber is not to be used by guard.

Can you please point out the niche the heavy stubber on infantry fills that the heavy bolter (with better S, range and AP while keeping the same amount of shots) does not cover?
A Missil Launcher is DIFFERENT to a lascannon because it can also fire frag (and in many cases also AA), which the lascannon is incapabe of.
The melta gun is DIFFERENT from the multi mela because it is an assault weapon unlike the multi melta.

[Haighus]

This is contradicted in most novels. The heavy bolter is basically always used by a "big strong solider". Other weapons are rerely mentioned with the exception of Missile Launchers where a "loader" seems to be required. I can think of Bragg? Who is an equivalent character to Harker and is noted as being unusual in his ability to wield a heavy bolter or autocannon alone.



Can you please point out the niche the heavy stubber on infantry fills that the heavy bolter (with better S, range and AP while keeping the same amount of shots) does not cover?
A Missil Launcher is DIFFERENT to a lascannon because it can also fire frag (and in many cases also AA), which the lascannon is incapabe of.
The melta gun is DIFFERENT from the multi mela because it is an assault weapon unlike the multi melta.

In the novels and background, the heavy stubber is essentially an easily portable fire-support weapon, like a SAW in modern day squads, as opposed to the heavier HMG of the heavy bolter. This isn't reflected in it's current rules as a heavy weapon, but in background it seems like it would be better suited as a salvo weapon. Unfortunately the stubber has been a heavy weapon since prior to salvo weapons being around, so is unlikely to change now. If you want to consider why the heavy stubber is different to the heavy bolter, why are heavy bolters not attached to the cupolas of Leman Russ and Chimeras? The heavy stubber is equivalent to a storm bolter in that regard.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I really like the idea of Heavy Stubbers, but sadly 40K doesn't represent suppressing fire very well if at all, (though they'd make a nice candidate for the Suppressing Fire order, actually. I like the idea of a Heavy Weapons Squad lighting up a street.)

They're also really weak and basically have an irrelevant AP. I find Heavy Bolters to be kinda worthless as it is, and Heavy Stubbers are worse in almost every way. Doesn't help that there's a 5pt tax per base on Heavy Weapons Squads for no real reason.

I'd really like them as a Special or Heavy Weapon, though, because I have a Kill Team of Savlar Chem Dogs who I've fluffed as Hive Gangers and released criminals thrown together into a gang and set loose on underhive threats. They fight with what they can steal or recruit, so I've got newbies as Conscripts, with an inner circle of Veterans. I have Autocannon/Heavy Bolter weapons teams as well, but I'd prefer Heavy Stubbers as they fit the feel more, (everyone has Autoguns of a variety of types, though a few have stolen/looted Lasguns.)

Multi-Lasers would be a fun Heavy Weapon as well.

[Charistoph]

While writing up a fandex of a kind of Humanity that was separated from the Imperium for a time, I was setting up one of the Troop Squads so that they only had Special Weapons, but they needed a volume of fire weapon like a SAW. Around that time, I saw a Military Channel show about weapons being developed which included a rifle which could be set up like an assault rifle, or reconfigured in a few seconds to be a SAW.

Thinking on that, I made up this little guy:
Light Stubber, Range: 36", Str: 3, AP: -, Type: Salvo 2/5.

This provides a high volume of fire when the shooter has a chance to set up, doesn't minimize his firepower too much on the run, the low Str keeps the 5 shots from being obnoxiously overpowered, while the 5 shots provide the volume for the Str 3 to actually do something.

Too bad I don't think we'll see its like.

[Haighus]

While writing up a fandex of a kind of Humanity that was separated from the Imperium for a time, I was setting up one of the Troop Squads so that they only had Special Weapons, but they needed a volume of fire weapon like a SAW. Around that time, I saw a Military Channel show about weapons being developed which included a rifle which could be set up like an assault rifle, or reconfigured in a few seconds to be a SAW.

Thinking on that, I made up this little guy:
Light Stubber, Range: 36", Str: 3, AP: -, Type: Salvo 2/5.

This provides a high volume of fire when the shooter has a chance to set up, doesn't minimize his firepower too much on the run, the low Str keeps the 5 shots from being obnoxiously overpowered, while the 5 shots provide the volume for the Str 3 to actually do something.

Too bad I don't think we'll see its like.

The rotor cannon in 30k has near identical stats, and is a very similar weapon :) Range: 30", Str: 3, Ap: 6, Salvo 3/4. It is described as a multi-barrelled stubber.

[Path Walker]

A Heavy Bolter, like any Bolt weapon, is not easily or freely manufactured. Its a scarce and difficult weapon to supply in any numbers, a lot of Regiments and Worlds simply can't keep as many Heavy Bolters as they'd want in service. Speaking in Fluff terms, not rules-wise, the Heavy Stubber also has a much higher rate of fire, meaning it needs a lot less training so are more suitable for the rapid turnover of soldiers some regiments experience.

Heavy Stubbers are used when Heavy Bolters aren't available or if their ammunition is too scarce to assign to everyone who wants one. Heavy Stubbers are simple and direct weapons than can be made by anyone with a decent workshop and can be manufactured to fire whatever ammo you have on hand, thus why they're so popular amongst gangers.

Bolters and the Bolt shells they fire is seen by many in the Imperium to have religious significance. Each Bolt Shell is blessed and sanctified individually, the belt fed, mass produced ammunition for a Heavy Stubber is not. On some worlds, possession of a single bolt shell can be punishable by death if the local law catch you. The Bolter is so tied to the Astartes within the psyche of the average Imperial Citizen that most wouldn't deem themselves worth of such a weapon. A Heavy Bolter Team in the Militarum are lucky and while they tend to become more practical about these things than the average Josiah Agri-worlder, most would still be honoured with their task.

If you're looking at the army list and using this to try and justify the existence of the Heavy Stubber based on that, you're not going to get the correct answer.

[Da Gargoyle]

Isn't the stubber the one where the target slaps at his neck and comments that the mossies are biting hard?