Respect and Proxies

[son_of_volmer]

Some poor soul vented his opinions surrounding proxies on the Spikey Bits Hobby FB page, and 213 comments later he was torn to shreds. I really wanted to go back and read all the comments, but I can no longer find it.

If I were on a battlefield with a Forge World Warlord Titan, and its giant foot were about to crush me, I would be staring up with wonder and a smile on my face.

The poor fool that started that fire, felt that it came down to cost. People with proxies don't pay the same costs that people who purchase their models straight from the source do. So one day, the Forge World truck drives over a pothole and a Warlord falls off the back. I pick it up and paint it. You're facing off against it. I tell you about how fortunate I was and now, because it did not cost a thing, you are insulted.

This is more about looks. I want my (personal) models to look good. Part of the reason I want them to look good is because I spent a ton of money on them. Games Workshop (sometimes) makes good looking models. Playing a game of 40k brings with it (mostly) agreed upon rules. Scale being one of them. How well you paint is NOT one of the agreed upon rules. But under those dollar store paints applied with a crayola airbrush, I can see a piece of art sculpted by Jes Goodwin. The scale, style and detail of the miniatures helps with immersion into the world, regardless of how well its painted.

When someone takes it upon themselves to make a proxy, they are asking for it to be compared to the miniatures Games Workshop makes, because it is meant to be used within the 40k system of gaming. When the proxy does not fit with the design, scale or style of GW then you are affecting your opponents level of immersion into the 40k world.

When commenting on someone's painting skill, it should be discussed with grace. Painting is a huge mountain to climb, and there is no easy way to the top. On the other hand criticizing someone's proxy, based on ascetic merit is different, because they had the option of buying the model GW makes. One enters the hobby with the expectation that opponents' models will be the quality that the game company established. The company makes the models, the company makes the game, so therefor an expectation is established.

Not all proxies are created equal. Some look good, some don't. Some people feel very pleased with their work because they've never accomplished something as original before. That is great and wonderful. Sculpting is such a wonderful form of artistic expression, and should be appreciated, but if you want your sculpture to be appreciated within the scope of a table top wargame, you are bound to run into some problems.

The 'rule of cool' is where money comes into it. Some proxies are completely acceptable; I will delight having your Warlord titan, made of 80% seashells, stomp my army to bits if it is truly a splendid model that fits the style, scale and design established in this universe.

Ask yourself: "How much would it sell for?". Would someone want to own it ask much as they want the crack GW puts out? Then you will know if people would want to face off against it.

Think of your proxy as a temporary thing. You're gonna play it a few times, get a feel for the unit, but then its onto bigger and better things. Try making the exact same model again and you're bound to make improvements. If it is your 'Go-To' unit, perhaps consider buying the actual model if you like it so much.

What is the reason you're running a proxy? Is it cause you're too cheap? If the reason is something you'd rather not tell your opponent, then perhaps within a year that proxy should be replaced with something of a higher quality.

Ask your opponent "Hey, how much would you pay for this fully painted proxy?" It you've running an Imperial Knight Proxy and the response is $90; you're good! If the response is a hesitant $40, then in the eyes of your opponent you're running a Landspeeder and saying it is a Knight.

Does there need to be a line in the sand? I think so, or next time I'm bringing a dry-erase D&D mat, and that's my army. For line-of-sight purposes I can wave my hands around the space that my proxies occupy.

[whargoul666]

Wow, I can't believe you said all that in public. I bet your loads of fun irl.

[Jewelfox]

... criticizing someone's proxy, based on ascetic merit is different, because they had the option of buying the model GW makes.

Are you trolling?


When commenting on someone's painting skill, it should be discussed with grace. Painting is a huge mountain to climb, and there is no easy way to the top.

Okay, sure. But why isn't it disrespectful when people don't get their models painted by a professional, then? It's the same situation, where you spend money to make something look good on the table. Are people "cheap" if they don't shell out for pro painting?

EDIT: My guess is that amateur painting is okay because GW sells painting supplies and how-to books, but it doesn't sell modeling supplies except for things to enhance its own models. Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but when your definition of "respecting your fellow player" can't be distinguished from "give Games Workshop all the moneys," you need to ask yourself whose best interests you have in mind here.

[Mr Mystery]

When it comes to proxies, my golden rules of life can be happily applied.

Rule One - Be Consistent.
In short, your Missile Launchers can totes proxy for say, Heavy Bolters for that game. However, they can't also be Missile Launchers, and LasCannons, and those two over there Autocannon.

Rule Two - Be Realistic.
If you're proxying another manufacturers model, using a stand in or using a scratch build, the dimensions need to be about right. To use an infamous example.... Bloodletters plonked on LotR horses do not Bloodcrushers make. They're considerably smaller in every way. That's a massive no-no in a game with True Line of Sight.

Rule Three - Don't take the piss.
If you're experimenting with your army before committing to purchase, far more leeway can be expected, regardless of the depth of your pocket. Some like to be sure, others have limited budgets, others yet are just naturally cautious. Rule Three applies to both parties. If you're still proxying after 3 months, just commit or convert already.

Rule Four - Respect costs nothing.

[Just Tony]

I'm flexible to a point. Putting down some Ork models because you don't have Flayers and you want to run the unit to get a feel? Sure, knock yourself out. Are there special weapons? Can you write down what counts as what so there's no reversal mid game? Then we're good. Showing up with a Warzone army that you're attempting to proxy as a Guard army so you don't lose out on money since Warzone flopped in the area and NONE of the weapons share visual cues that will make targeting a successful enterprise? **** straight off.

And of course no cigarette pack Rhinos. Ever.

[Glyn Armitage]

ahhh the age old source of strife and argument in 40k...proxying i'm fairly laid back as long as its clear what is what and your not out to "take the mickey" people often want to try new stuff before buying and in todays world that's cool but come on not 3 months later of the same unit being proxyed with the same models, you should have them by then

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm laid back with proxying. Someone doesn't have the cash to get a particular model, but wants to try it out before they buy it? Sure, that Rhino is now a Land Raider for this particular game, whatever. Your Daemon Prince is a Great Unclean One, okay. Those four Devastators with a myriad array of weapons are all Lascannons? That's fine, it's GW's annoying habit of packing mixed weapons in a box that causes that. So long as it's not the entire army, that's fine.

In terms of counts-as, I'm a big fan. I've seen some beautiful scratch-build work, and I've seen less-beautiful work that was still a solid attempt by the creator. I love armies converted to have a theme, where they have recognisable analogues to other models. A local guy has an army entirely made of Grots. Grots in stolen Termy armour as Meganobz, Grots riding Carnifexes as Deff Dredz. To be fair, you can't run Orks without a bit of counts-as, that's the fun of them.

As long as the end result of a kitbash or scratch-build looks about the right size, is on the right base, and looks like an analogue to the thing you're saying it is, we're cool. I personally wanna try converting an "XV-101 Ironside Battlesuit" for my already fairly-converted Gue'vesa. It'd run under the Knight rules, but it'd be made to look like a more primitive, abandoned Riptide prototype. The Heavy Burst Cannon would look a bit more rugged to represent that Avenger Cannon they get, and it'd have a Double-Barreled Ion Cannon for the other weapon. An old, clunky prototype the Tau "gifted" to my Regiment.

But then I have Ion Cannon Basilisks, Guardsmen in Fire Warrior armour and Chimeras with PuppetsWar turrets among many other unique eccentricities, so I'm a little biased. :P

[Mr Mystery]

I think anyone who objects to an even half-decent Kitbash wants their bumps felt.

It's been a part of the hobby since it began, and remains so today.

Again, as long as you're not taking the mick with ridiculous 'modelled for advantage' nonsense, what's the difference?

[Erik Setzer]

Depends on what we're talking about with "proxies" here.

If someone wants to test an army list and have models count as something else for a one-off or maybe two or three matches, but clearly has the intention of fielding the correct models when they can (if their concept works out), then I have no issue with that. Same thing goes for people just starting out who don't have a lot of money. As long as you're clear on what it is, it's all good. And there's also people who have the models at home to assemble, but might want to test them in-game first (especially if there's options to assemble).

Using non-GW models for stuff? No problem, as long as you're clear what it is. Plenty of Kromlech models are awesome for Orks, and I think it's fine for someone to use them. There are a number of IG alternatives that can let you make a sweet looking IG army that doesn't look like Yet Another Cadian Battalion. Want to use an Infinity model as an Assassion? Sure! Other companies' fantasy models in Warhammer? Have at it! Back when the Kult of Speed list came out for Orks in Codex: Armageddon, I found some resin tracked vehicles with a barrel sticking out of them and a big machine gun. They were perfect stand-ins for Guntrukks (you've got a kannon and big shoota, and they looked right), so I used them. The fact they were a dollar each shouldn't matter. They looked right with the army.

And then there's mixing together various GW lines. I've used a Necromunda Spyrer as an Assassin. And there's converting or repurposing models for a unique style of army (usually doing a "counts-as" situation). I'm building a Rogue Trader's personal force (slowly, but surely). The Rogue Trader himself is a converted Commissar, and will use Inquisitor rules to reflect his access to gear. I've got models from Necromunda as other characters. I've got Necromunda gangs ready to act as Henchmen. I've got multiple squads of old metal IG that will act as, well, IG. I've converted some Empire Free Militia to be Henchmen. I converted a unit of Ogres, giving them shields made of battlefield scrap, and replacing their right hands with modified Stormfiend plague launchers to act as grenade launchers: boom, Bullgryn! I have a Dwarf Engineer standing in as a Squat Engineer (and he looks perfect for it). People might do Exodites for Eldar. They might convert Squats and use SM, IG, or even Ork rules. As long as they make sure you know what they are, it's all good.

But come on here... We're talking about a company that included a card with a picture of a Dreadnought in a starter box with the serious expectation people would use it to represent a Dreadnought. When the heck did we get *this* snobby with the hobby?

And the whole "It could break your opponent's immersion" argument is bunk. People have different views of what's immersive. I feel like Orks painted to be dumb beasts with no culture is immersion-breaking. Other people have knocked me for my multi-clan Ork army with units painted in different clan colors... even though that's how a Waaagh! works and how Ork armies of all types worked in 2nd edition. At the same time, someone might decide they want to do a "Crusade" army. Will you tell them that their Space Marines being painted for different chapters is wrong? They have a legitimate piece of fluff to back their army.

If you're going to bash the quality of someone's conversions, then why stop yourself from attacking the quality of their painting? Is a sloppy paint job that immersive? No, it isn't. (And that's not even getting into lack of paint on a model, which could be for a number of reasons.) So do you attack that? No, because then you'd be a dick? Well, congrats, you just spotted the problem with many of the arguments you listed against proxies! "They don't have enough money to buy all the right models." So you're going to be a jerk because they don't have a lot of money but would like to participate? "Their conversions don't look good enough." So? Are you a freaking artistic genius? No? Then let it go. And it's the same as saying "Their paint jobs aren't good enough." "They're not using GW models!" Are you in a GW store? No? Then who cares? They might prefer someone else's models, and in some cases (many cases), you can find models that blow away GW's stuff for a lower price. Much of the talk of "model quality" really comes down to subjective commentary, so while you might think a model isn't as good as the one GW makes, the other person might feel like it's better.

In short: Don't be a judgmental prick toward other gamers.

- - - Updated - - -


It's been a part of the hobby since it began, and remains so today.

Yeah, freaking kids these days need to get off my lawn and take a history lesson. GW started out by making stuff for other folks' games and weren't such sticklers about using other models in Warhammer. The Rogue Trader (1st edition 40K) rulebook shows not only a deodorant stick tank, but IIRC, a GI Joe vehicle as well. The 3rd/4th edition 40K Vehicle Design Rules were specifically for people to kitbash their own vehicles and make rules for them.

Just because the modern GW board wants you to think even looking at other minis is akin the serious sin of lust doesn't mean we should actually indulge them and act that way.

[Mr Mystery]

I don't know that's the case.

Certainly where there's a commercially produced kit, you naturally see far fewer scratch builds, simply because the need is lessened.

But I encourage everyone to embrace all aspects of the hobby, and konvertin' is certainly that :)

[Morgrim]

Size is occasionally an issue with heavily converted/outright stand in models. For example my chronos (formerly my talos, but it's build for close combat more than shooting so I switched it with the new rules) is based off the old metal dark elf hydra. It is no longer the right sort of size and shape for the new talos/chronos kit. Mostly because they CHANGED the kit and I can't be bothered trying to bend metal necks to a better match.

On the other hand, my custom converted beastmasters are now closer in size to the official model than they were previously. If someone seriously tells me I cannot use my units because they aren't the same ones GW manufactures - despite having lots of GW parts (I play in a GW store) - the clearly I don't want to play them because they're jerks and, in my experience, are the sort of unpleasant rules lawyers that ruin games.

[Erik Setzer]

I have a bunch of Ork Wartrukks, GorkaMorka style. Certainly not the same size as the new ones. It annoys me when people act like I use them trying to get an advantage or something... rather than realizing I use them because they're GW models, I paid $20+ for each of them, and I don't see a burning need to rush out and drop a couple hundred dollars on replacing them with new models. Besides, in some cases, they're painted to match the units that used them (i.e. the Painboss's Wartrukk was painted white with red trim and red crosses... and a good bit of pooled blood).

Just because a new model comes out that changes the dimensions of an existing model doesn't mean the existing model - or proxies - should be considered obsolete.

Though, yeah, if someone used Epic models for proxies and claimed them as their height, or something cheeky like that, there'd be an issue.

[Charon]

Size is occasionally an issue with heavily converted/outright stand in models.

Not only with stand in Models. As no model is "illegal" and you are not forced to always buy "up to date" try to compare the new Bloodthirster to this one:
17112

There is no statement that old models do become invalid.

Also some GW stores outlaw conversions if they include bitz from a 3rd party.

[Erik Setzer]

Sometimes I still break out the old Greater Daemons. Hey, they might just be compacted into a smaller physical shell. They're Daemons. This stuff happens. I'll often use them as Daemon Princes, but if I want to use them as a GD, no one's going to tell me that my model of a Bloodthirster can't be used as a Bloodthirster, unless they're opening their wallet to spend $116 on a replacement right then and there. Just because the model's size changed doesn't mean the old model is no longer valid.

[Denzark]

I think I find proxying more acceptable than 'counts-as'. The other day I got to a pre arranged game at my local GW to find I had not packed Mr Murderfang. THe Blackshirt pops a cabinet, loans me a Salamander FW dread. Now that I can cope with. I can also cope with 'mate I wanted to try a Damocles command rhino - that's this razorback.' But when someone pops a grey horde down, and says - these are white scar grav bikers. And then the next week - these are Ravenwing with invisibility and 2+ rerollable jinks. That shoite gets old quickly.

Also, I get the rule of cool. But I hate it in tournaments where I come across 'this is my world eaters using Space Wolf rules' or 'this is my thousand suns using Grey Knight rules'. I like to look at a mini and know what it is and what it does. Even when the player meticulously makes laminated guidance cards with a picture of the unit, I find the pause in the cut and thrust of a tournament time limited game, just breaks my flow - when I have to check - 'yeah those rebel grots are they an infantry platoon or veterans?'.

They look good, just I'd prefer not for time limited games.

Also, please don't go unbound, stick scarabs on a knight and then say it has been assimilated. Oh please. You want a SH Walker - don't try and fluff it - you want it for game effect because you can't find 375 points in your won codex that are as useful.

[Erik Setzer]

Also, please don't go unbound, stick scarabs on a knight and then say it has been assimilated. Oh please. You want a SH Walker - don't try and fluff it - you want it for game effect because you can't find 375 points in your won codex that are as useful.

I modeled my Knight with its shield hanging upside-down and its heraldry covered to represent a dishonored fallen knight who's trying to fight to get his honor back. It's specifically modeled so I can use it in any army I want, yes. But I did take time to do that.

http://www.realmsofinisfail.com/2014/05/building-a-dishonored-knight/

(Poor thing's also been shot up. And because there were no AA weapons for Knights yet, even their main weapons couldn't shoot at flyers, I modeled shots across its top to indicate that little annoyance.)

Would you have a problem with me running this alongside Chaos, Orks, or Eldar, following the rules for allies?

[Denzark]

Chaos - no problem. They have an army list entry for Chaos Knights.

Eldar - I don't know why you would instead of a WK - but if they are not come the apocalypse, OK.

Orks - I'd rather you used the stomper or the new Mr potato head thingy, but again, if they are not come the apocalypse, OK.



I am not saying I wouldn't play it if someone did - or that come the apocalypse shouldn't be done. Its more about why the individual is going outside their own army list. If it is unbound purely for WAAC/power gaming purposes, I can't respect that.

[phoenix01]

One time I was challenged to a game, my homebrew Vanilla Marine chapter against my opponent's Blood Angels. We start pulling out models, mine are all WYSIWYG and painted, his are... well, not. He pulls out ten identical AoBR marines, all with bolters and slathered with blue paint, and says, "These are my Death Company, this one has a power sword, this one here has a plasma pistol and chainsword, and this one has..." He rattles off different war gear for each model, then finishes with, "...and they all have jump packs."

I said not a word as I packed up all my models.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, thanks to Games Workshop being lazy and shoving all Imperials together, it is CTA. That's an issue for me because mixing Imperials with my Orks *is* a thing that works with the fluff, since my latest Ork army is an all-Blood Axes army, and Blood Axes work with Imperials at times. I wouldn't have Space Marines working alongside the Orks, but Imperial Guard, Knights, or even Inquisitors (hey, they'll use Daemon weapons even) could fight alongside them. I think being Desperate Allies makes sense, which IIRC was how it was for Orks and IG.

If I ran the Knight with Eldar, it'd be because I don't have the money for a Wraithknight, don't want to use something *too* good, or, most likely, it'd be a fluffy reason with some back story explaining it.

The only time I went cheeky with it was for a tournament, where I made a list based on a joke and really just to show off my big models. The core was a Stompa, a Morkanaut, and a Knight. (The Stompa also had a Big Mek inside with a 4+ KFF, and a unit of Burna Boyz with three converted to Meks.) The joke was that a Big Mek, a Bad Mek, and a Knight met in a bar, and argued over which one could cause the most destruction, and they decided to go off to war to settle the argument and prove themselves. I even kept a running tally for each, and explained it to my opponents. Two of them laughed at it, the last one didn't but he was an odd sort to play against and rather annoying and kept trying to interpret the rules wrong and delay the game, and surprise, surprise, he beat me with his drop pod army (didn't help that at the time they hadn't clarified how super-heavy walkers treat difficult terrain, which slowed my guys down). One of the matches even had a Stompa-on-Stompa fight. The first one included my opponent summoning Daemons like crazy (more stuff to kill!). It was super fun, and really funny. (And not as bad as the guy who had a Warhound and a Librarian... mercifully in the game he got Invisibility, he used some other power first, got a Perils, and his Librarian forgot Invisibility. He still won that game, though.)

So hey, sometimes accepting weird combos can be fun.

It's also the only way to have, say, Guardsmen who've fallen to the sway of Chaos. Or, as one guy did, human soldiers being controlled by the Hive Mind. If someone has a solid, creative story, and modeled stuff to match the story, I think that's pretty cool, and I have no problem playing against it.

Where I might draw the line is one guy who always bashed Elves and Eldar and yet got a Dark Elf Sorceress model to use as a psyker (Imperial Guard rules) with the story that she's his Wolf Lord's consort. Because I guess Elves are okay if you're having sex with them and keeping them on a leash to use psychic powers to buff your army with Endurance every freaking game. :rolleyes:

[Mr Mystery]

Not only with stand in Models. As no model is "illegal" and you are not forced to always buy "up to date" try to compare the new Bloodthirster to this one:
17112

There is no statement that old models do become invalid.

Also some GW stores outlaw conversions if they include bitz from a 3rd party.

Again, there's the 'Don't take the piss' golden rule of, Erm.....me.

You're right that, strictly speaking, the above tiddly Greater Daemon remains game legal.

But

There's a world of difference between someone coming back into the hobby, someone dusting off an ancient army of yore to change things up, someone getting started with an army bought at a bootfair - and some arse seeking out that model because they think they get an advantage from its smaller stature.

The first three are all fine by me. The fourth? To me, it's no different to modelling for advantage.

Other opinions are of course available.

[Ravingbantha]

By this line of thinking, anyone who buys used minis off ebay should be looked down upon. I can spend $40+ on a box of 10 Space Marines NoS, or I can buy a squad already assembled on Ebay for $10.What difference does it make if someone got a better deal then me, even if it's a box that fell off a truck? Good for them. Not everyone can afford to buy new or even to have a full army of GW mini's

As for Using proxies, I have no problem with people using them. Technically most every conversion is a proxy. Converting a Land Raider to be an Ork Battlewagon is technically a Proxy, since the model being used is not a GW produced Battlewagon, yet we alow this all the time. I've seen dozens of award winning conversions that are using all or part of one model to represent another. I have about 5 Rune Priests in my Space Wolves army, only one is the actual Wolf Priest model, the rest are conversions. So it could be argued that I am proxing a Grey Hunter/Blood Claw/Wolf Guard for a Rune Priest.

[Erik Setzer]

As for Using proxies, I have no problem with people using them. Technically most every conversion is a proxy. Converting a Land Raider to be an Ork Battlewagon is technically a Proxy, since the model being used is not a GW produced Battlewagon, yet we alow this all the time. I've seen dozens of award winning conversions that are using all or part of one model to represent another. I have about 5 Rune Priests in my Space Wolves army, only one is the actual Wolf Priest model, the rest are conversions. So it could be argued that I am proxing a Grey Hunter/Blood Claw/Wolf Guard for a Rune Priest.

I actually do have a Battlewagon based on a Land Raider kit heavily modified.

Also converted most of my Space Wolf characters. I'm really happy with the Iron Priest and Wolf Priest. The Rune Priest isn't a conversion, because I had the old metal model in a blister still.

And my Ogre characters are all converted from a box of Bulls with all kinds of bits added on, or even green stuff used. Part of it's because I didn't want to pay the crazy prices for the characters, but also it was really, really fun to convert them.

But in those cases and your examples, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what something is meant to be, and you can always explain it, right?

[Mr Mystery]

Odd tangent......

But do you ever get the feeling that some conversions are more readily accepted than others?

Orks for instance - it's completely par for the course.

Erik's Ogres - again, it's really common, and rarely frowned upon.

Characters in general just seem to be accepted, whether based on a GW model or not (my Dark Angels had a 'counts-as' Interrator Chaplain from, I think, Void)

But convert up a non-GW tank, and some get sniffy. Be it the fairly common IG from WWII, to more in depth Eldar Grav Tanks, there often feels to be an automatic resistance?

[Ravingbantha]

I actually do have a Battlewagon based on a Land Raider kit heavily modified.

Also converted most of my Space Wolf characters. I'm really happy with the Iron Priest and Wolf Priest. The Rune Priest isn't a conversion, because I had the old metal model in a blister still.

And my Ogre characters are all converted from a box of Bulls with all kinds of bits added on, or even green stuff used. Part of it's because I didn't want to pay the crazy prices for the characters, but also it was really, really fun to convert them.

But in those cases and your examples, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what something is meant to be, and you can always explain it, right?

For the most part, as long as you are abiding by the WYSIWYG rule, then you should be fine. I listed those examples specifically, because they are ones I have. I know a lot of ork players that use Land Raiders for Battle Wagons. Ive also seen a number of Ork conversions using non GW base items (the Mr Potato Head Stompa comes to mind) and no one seems to have a problem with that. It is interesting to see how people react to different things.

I've seen armies using Mantic zombies and no one bats an eye. But someone uses a realistic looking plastic T-Rex in their Lizardman army, and people loose their minds. I think in the end, what it really comes down to is effort, put in the effort to make a Non-GW item look cool and fit in with the rest of it, and people will let just about anything slide.

[Denzark]

I think it boils down to motivation. If that motivation is to get a gaming advantage...

[Dawg]

Here's another spin on the conversion/proxy/scratchbuild question. Actually, it's more of a question on the "acceptability" spectrum.

What's the opinion on papercraft builds and templates?

I've seen the whole spectrum there too, from the really shoddy black and white printouts that pretty much get crushed in a shoebox between games, to a properly resized baneblade that was built, sheathed in plasticard and had parts pulled from GW kits. The easiest way to identify it was by checking under the skirt because the guy refused to "send a tank into battle without a suspension."

And it was all based off that Baneblade template published in White Dwarf way back when. (#132)

I've seen snobbery on both sides, from both GW and pseudo-historical purists. And that doesn't even get into the third party aftermarket bitz debate and folks who do their own casting - bases, pauldrons and vehicle doors.

From what I can tell, it's worse than politics. You have to negotiate a pickup game.. then the narrative.. and then what's acceptable to for the "hobby" to be.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think my main problem is that the lines between Proxy, Counts-As and Conversions can be so blurry. For example, I don't use standard box leader characters, they are always converted from spare parts because it's cheaper and the end result is more unique. So I end up with Commissars in my Gue'vesa like this guy:

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150620_23_22_23_Pro.jpg
(Those are Servitor-Drones behind him.)

But then you have relatively minor modifications like attaching Sun Shark engines to a Valkyrie (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/Guevesa%20Guard%20WIP/WP_20150313_22_31_13_Pro.jpg). Or an Ion Cannon, Burst Cannons and Drones to a Baneblade (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150617_23_03_28_Pro.jpg). Or just replacing a Chimera Turret altogether to look more futuristic (http://s148.photobucket.com/user/coffeegrunt/media/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150708_01_05_58_Pro.jpg.html?sort=3&o=17).

My army is full of this stuff. Ion Cannon Basilisks (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20150930_11_42_58_Pro.jpg). Drone-Controlled Mortars (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/4th%20Tarosian%20Regiment/WP_20151008_01_04_56_Pro.jpg). Missile Pod Quad-Guns (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/Guevesa%20Guard%20WIP/WP_20151030_00_36_08_Pro.jpg). Rail Rifle-wielding Veterans (http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s36/coffeegrunt/Guevesa%20Guard%20WIP/WP_20150308_20_36_33_Pro.jpg).

The problem I have is that, to me, this kind of stuff is the stuff that makes it my army. Not just Generic Cadian Collection #134234. The odd blend of Tau and Imperial tech with some other stuff as well. I mean, I have to run through what everything is with my opponents, but as I'm building this stuff, there's typically fluff behind it. The Drone-Mortars are autonomous units left on their own to rain suppressing fire on distant targets the force is closing in on. The Rail Rifles those Veterans carry fire heavier slugs, which is why their Range and AP are worse, but the Strength is higher. It also stresses the power supply, hence Gets Hot. That Ion Cannon is basically the Wraith from Halo, but bigger.

Given that I still run everything out of Codex: AM, I run through everything beforehand with my opponent, justify it with fluff and have tried my best to make it all look good, I personally don't think it's fair that someone consider my army as being less than a generic one.

[Erik Setzer]

That kind of stuff is what really makes the game fun, and makes the hobby as a whole fun. Plopping out the same army as everyone else just seems like wasted opportunity, if you have ideas to do something else. There's a whole galaxy of fluff, and a ton of models and bits to use. As long as you make it clear, shouldn't be a problem, and seeing new conversions or even new army concepts is fun.

The complete opposite end of the spectrum, where someone tries to sub a standard AoBR Tactical Squad in as a Death Company with varying gear and jump packs (unless it's a one-off thing just to test which is agreed upon first), that's where it's okay to feel like they're not putting in effort.

Converting? Oh heck no. That's effort. Painting? Even if it's not amazing, they tried. Third party stuff that's clearly what it's meant to be? Works. Someone paid less money than you did or has an older version of a model with current rules? Hey, they still got the model through non-shady means, it's legal, no worries. Someone goes to the trouble of making a decent looking plasticard Baneblade? Cool (but then wonder about their sanity).

The hobby is meant to include all these different things, so I don't see why anyone would want to not have as much variety as possible on the table. Makes the game more fun.

[Mr Mystery]

Here's another spin on the conversion/proxy/scratchbuild question. Actually, it's more of a question on the "acceptability" spectrum.

What's the opinion on papercraft builds and templates?

I've seen the whole spectrum there too, from the really shoddy black and white printouts that pretty much get crushed in a shoebox between games, to a properly resized baneblade that was built, sheathed in plasticard and had parts pulled from GW kits. The easiest way to identify it was by checking under the skirt because the guy refused to "send a tank into battle without a suspension."

And it was all based off that Baneblade template published in White Dwarf way back when. (#132)

I've seen snobbery on both sides, from both GW and pseudo-historical purists. And that doesn't even get into the third party aftermarket bitz debate and folks who do their own casting - bases, pauldrons and vehicle doors.

From what I can tell, it's worse than politics. You have to negotiate a pickup game.. then the narrative.. and then what's acceptable to for the "hobby" to be.

Papercraft - it's really going to vary.

To use your examples above.....the black and white print outs, made out of standard A4 - yeah, you're just being a cheapskate now. The Baneblade? I think it's a bit smaller than the plastic model in length and width, but loses any advantage there by being taller. If someone's gone to town on a scratchbuild, then all cool with me.

But if I think someone is just being a cheapskate (not the same thing as of limited hobby funds, I hasten to clarify) then I'd already suspect they may not be much fun to play against - not a universal thing, but a general trend spotted over the years.

Aftermarket bitz? I object to parasites like CH who just use IP willy-nilly, but not the practice of providing oddities in itself, and I'm not going to refuse someone a game just because they've got CH bitz on their models.


The complete opposite end of the spectrum, where someone tries to sub a standard AoBR Tactical Squad in as a Death Company with varying gear and jump packs (unless it's a one-off thing just to test which is agreed upon first), that's where it's okay to feel like they're not putting in effort.

Yep. Back in 2nd Edition, I used to run two Dark Angel Assault squads. And they had a real mix of weapons. Powerfists, Powerswords, Poweraxes, Hand Flamers, Plasma Pistols, and of course Disposable Bob and Expendable Bill, who had no spanky weapons. When playing, I paid for their upgrades and played WYSIWYG. If I wanted to use them in a smaller game, then the whole squad went in without upgrades - kept it nice and simple, especially with the courtesy of reminding my opponent every turn 'remember dude, Assault Squad is barebones. Bolt Pistol and Chainsword only'

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Though, yeah, if someone used Epic models for proxies and claimed them as their height, or something cheeky like that, there'd be an issue.

Lol, cryptek used shrinking ray on those marines or they are the Antman chapter ;) :P Now I want to see tiny 6mm marines climbing up a normal scale rhino.

[Gotthammer]

Might actually fit a whole squad in then :p

[CoffeeGrunt]

Reminds me of that old Golden Daemon of a Space Marine painting an epic scale Space Marine in his hand.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Might actually fit a whole squad in then :p

LOL! yeah, always thought the vehicles were way too small for the 28mm figures but then 40k is full of scale issues really.

[Erik Setzer]

Yep. Back in 2nd Edition, I used to run two Dark Angel Assault squads. And they had a real mix of weapons. Powerfists, Powerswords, Poweraxes, Hand Flamers, Plasma Pistols, and of course Disposable Bob and Expendable Bill, who had no spanky weapons. When playing, I paid for their upgrades and played WYSIWYG. If I wanted to use them in a smaller game, then the whole squad went in without upgrades - kept it nice and simple, especially with the courtesy of reminding my opponent every turn 'remember dude, Assault Squad is barebones. Bolt Pistol and Chainsword only'

Ha! Reminds me of my original Death Company. When I started getting my Blood Angels in shape for 7th edition after adding to them with Bloodstorm, I had to pop the arms off a bunch of those guys and re-equip them because they had so many weapons you could slap on them and, well, they *should* be unique, reflecting guys bringing their old gear with them one last time. Made it a bit crazy adding up the points and stuff, but it was fun.

[Mr Mystery]

And with 'closest casualty' WYSIWYG is even more important.

For those who played, consider 7th Ed and backwards Warhammer. Just how many times was the Wizard you just jobbed also, conveniently the one that had used up all their Dispel Scrolls?

Got to know what I'm shooting at at the best of times, doubly so when is closest casualty rules.

[Morgrim]

LOL! yeah, always thought the vehicles were way too small for the 28mm figures but then 40k is full of scale issues really.

They actually do fit! I saw a model once where someone had converted a bunch of marines to sit inside a rhino and gotten them to fit. Although the comment was that if you had heavy weapons, you were going to have to hug them like a teddy bear.

[Chris*ta]

They actually do fit! I saw a model once where someone had converted a bunch of marines to sit inside a rhino and gotten them to fit. Although the comment was that if you had heavy weapons, you were going to have to hug them like a teddy bear.

I always assumed this is what they already did :p

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think Proxies or "counts as" are an issue at all. It has never been in any of the venues I play in. Playing the game is, after all, about playing the game. It could be done with bottle caps if someone didn't have anything else. Social interactions require other people, and are ultimately about the people themselves. What we choose to play or what we play with is kind of incidental. I'd rather have a game and good times with more people than have fewer (or none) while making pointless demands of others in regards what they can or cannot use while doing so.

[grimmas]

I'd say the rule of cool does come in here. If it's about the right size and looks nice I'm usually game. I'm not a fan of random rubbish be used it needs to be a model of some description. Of course back in the day most of a vehicles were scratch builds so they were pretty much all proxies really. My scratch built stomper needs to proxies as a battlewagon (with appropriate upgrades) or Morkanaught as I was a little off scale wise when I built it.

There is of course the question of oop models. I still have a number of models from the original Imperial Guard range that they can't use anymore. I binned the rhinos, the Dreadnaughts need to proxie/counts as sentinels. My landspeeders are a little more problematic but I've been going with devil dogs by mounting them a chimera footprint size base and never tank shocking with them (I'm stripping 2 down I havent decided if I'm going to mount the pair together or not yet).

[Captain Bubonicus]

I still use stuff I scratch-built, like 'Nid spore pods and Ork battlewagons that didn't have an official model for years and years. Now they do have an official model, but I'm not rushing out to drop a couple hundred bucks on 'em. Does that make me a bad person?

[Just Tony]

I think anyone who objects to an even half-decent Kitbash wants their bumps felt.

It's been a part of the hobby since it began, and remains so today.

Again, as long as you're not taking the mick with ridiculous 'modelled for advantage' nonsense, what's the difference?

Sometimes it goes too far. Anyone remember Joe Orteza's greenstuff Chaos army? Literally NOTHING in that army could have been discerned as anything close to what it was supposed to represent. THAT sort of scratchbuilding I am against. I also saw a Lego Land Speeder. Yeah.


And with 'closest casualty' WYSIWYG is even more important.

For those who played, consider 7th Ed and backwards Warhammer. Just how many times was the Wizard you just jobbed also, conveniently the one that had used up all their Dispel Scrolls?

Got to know what I'm shooting at at the best of times, doubly so when is closest casualty rules.

Was my club the only club where you wrote that sort of thing down? Kinda like spells, write it on your list so it isn't in dispute.

[Mr Mystery]

Lego - if it's the right size and looks about right, I'd be ok.

Greenstuff one? Haven't seen that - I'll have a google :)

And yes. It looks like it was the only club :p

[Charon]

Was my club the only club where you wrote that sort of thing down? Kinda like spells, write it on your list so it isn't in dispute.

No, you club was not the only one. It is common sense to write this stuff down (or cross it off the list in case of one use items) just like it is common sense to mark remaining hitpoints.

[Erik Setzer]

Ooooh... I just remembered one of my favorite items I did for my dad's Nurgle army. We found these action figures at Wal-Mart, $1 each, kind of cheap figures, but they had some interesting bits in them, i.e. wings that could be used for daemons, Egyptian style banners, etc. Well, some of them had bony dragon-like creatures (ah, right, that's where the wings came from!), and I added some green stuff to represent rotten skill falling off, and painted them up properly. Boom, Chaos Spawn.

It was at least a decade ago, and I'd never claim to be the best skilled, but I like how they turned out. Can't find the photos at the moment, but I'm sure I have some, somewhere. I'll post them if I find them.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

speaking personally, counts-as is the ONLY way I can do my minor xenos races and such. Perhaps if GW or FW actually produced some of them I wouldnt have to convert or sculpt...

[Terry McAllister]

Personally, I don't mind proxies. I use proxies myself, but only when I want to try out new units or tactics but don't necessarily want to go out and spend £100+ on models to test. If I like the units or the tactics, then I will make the investment in the models..
So far this has been fine within my group of friends who I play with regularly so I don't see a reason to change.
I can understand not accepting proxies in a competitive environment though, other than that, no problem for me.

[Charistoph]

Sometimes it goes too far. Anyone remember Joe Orteza's greenstuff Chaos army? Literally NOTHING in that army could have been discerned as anything close to what it was supposed to represent. THAT sort of scratchbuilding I am against. I also saw a Lego Land Speeder. Yeah.

Beats the coke bottle Drop Pod that gets moved around a little at a time whenever someone takes a drink!

My favorite in terms of comedy was someone who took pipe cleaners and bent them in to the shape of B, D, L, and O, and put them on bases for his "Blood Letters (http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/507727-Blood%20Letters%201.html)", complete with googly eyes! While a great finger to the GW kit prices, I give props for being imaginative.

[Sonikgav]

Back in the day the rule was 50% of the model had to be GW Parts. Doesnt need to be what the model was intended to be, as long as it was built from GW kits they didnt care.

I think the crux of this argument though was that the poster on the FB thread was basically saying he felt personally insulted, if someone hadn't invested as much in their army financially. Even to the point he stated its not just proxies, but also older, out of date and damaged models still being fielded instead of being replaced.

[son_of_volmer]

Right, I forgot the part about being 'personally insulted'.

Can we agree that there is a point where a proxy becomes unacceptable in a game of 40k between strangers?

I feel proxies verge on being unacceptable when they are converted from a toys with no consideration for the scale, style and detail of the 40k miniatures their opponent is likely to field.

I love pewter models, I love old models, I love free models. I live in a part of Japan where the closest thing to 40k I can find is a box of 3rd edition plastic Marines buried under Gundam kits. There are amazing plastic model kits everywhere, but require a ton of work to bring them in line with 40k.

One of these days I’m going to make a proxy from the M61A5. I will do so knowing that whatever opponent I face off against might expect me to be fielding a GW produced Super Heavy. They may have spent a great deal of money and time on their Lord of War and done so with the expectation that they’d face an opponent who had done the same.

[Mr Mystery]

Damaged Models is a no-no for me. I've had bad experiences with that in the past, and don't wish to risk a revisit.

Other opinions are available and no more or less valid.

But yeah, there is always a tipping point - but I don't think it's one that can ever be fully defined. There's just too much subjectivity.

[Cactus]

Sometimes it goes too far. Anyone remember Joe Orteza's greenstuff Chaos army? Literally NOTHING in that army could have been discerned as anything close to what it was supposed to represent. THAT sort of scratchbuilding I am against. I also saw a Lego Land Speeder. Yeah.


I disagree with your comments about Joe Orteza's models. I thought those were stunning and they often included bits from GW models. Those were works of art and he obviously put a lot of time, money, and love into making those models.

However, cheap-skating around with toys, Coke bottles, etc so you don't have to paint I find disappointing. Those "conversions" or "proxies" are rarely painted or have any creative effort put into making it represent what the rulebook describes. However, the guy who converted Mr. Potatohead into an Ork Stompa obviously put the time, love and effort into converting and painting and I have no problem playing against those models.

[Erik Setzer]

If it's not something where literally no effort was put in, I don't see a problem.

Seriously, you want to compare how much you spent on armies like it's something to give you more reason to be a whiny little tosser? ("You" not referring to anyone on this topic in particular, but people like the one originally quoted.)

Let's see... I've got well over a thousand dollars in my Undead. And that's after I got a huge chunk of them for $800. Probably closer to $1500. I've got a Knight, purchased at full retail. Stompa, ditto. Lord of Skulls, ditto. (That last one wasn't painted by me, though. The GW manager sold off the store model he assembled and painted, only charging box price, and I HAD to have it because that thing and I have some good memories together.) I've got a huge Skaven army. Dwarf army. Orks must be closer to $3000-$4000 by now if you take them all in. I'll stop going down the armies now, but each one has at least a few hundred dollars in it, and there's a lot of them. I have conversions I've sank over a hundred dollars into. (I also have some that didn't cost quite that much, because if someone's selling a slightly messed up Land Raider for $5 or a scorched Tau tank for $3, I will gladly snatch them and convert for Orks.) Similarly, I've got those $1 Guntrukks, had Chaos Spawn made from $1 creatures (plus more than a dollar's green stuff), converted Possessed with wings from said $1 creatures.

If my opponent is enthusiastic about playing the game, and is doing so within their limits, I'll gladly play them. Not everyone can spend money like I can. (Granted, perhaps I shouldn't be spending as much.) Sure, I agree that coke cans and stuff are just not cool. But if someone had, say, a $40-$50 model (or, worse, a more expensive tank) break, and can't afford a replacement, I'll let them use the broken model (after offering to help fix it in any way I can, or offering creative suggestions on how to convert it).

Our game is social. And while GW might want to be elitist [censored]s who only want the richest of the rich playing their games while sipping whine and eating caviar and looking down on the great unwashed masses, that's a silly way to approach a social hobby. We need new players to play against. This ain't a cheap hobby. People do what they have to in order to get started. If they're at least trying, even if you don't think their painting skill is good enough, even if you think a Dark Eldar Sith Lord is a silly idea, even if you think they should pay full retail and not dare to save money, these people are at least investing something in the game. And if you work with them, and promote their enjoyment of the game, you'll help them want to invest more in it - more money, more time, etc. But if you turn your nose at them because you're "too good" to play with them, then you're also just an elitist [censored] and you're hurting the hobby.

(Part of this rant is fueled by my own experiences growing up in a pretty poor family. Luckily, I had understanding opponents. But heck, back then, it was no big thing to try to save money. A lot of us used Battlemasters games to fill out our WFB armies. It got even better when they were on clearance for $5 a box at a department store. I still use many of those models today, and they look just fine.)

[Captain Bubonicus]

A lot of us used Battlemasters games to fill out our WFB armies. It got even better when they were on clearance for $5 a box at a department store. I still use many of those models today, and they look just fine.)

Darned right! Most of my WHFB Chaos Warriors are still those old Battlemasters plastic figures!

[Erik Setzer]

Found the photos of the Spawn! Maybe not the best pics, but should get the point across.

1732517326

- - - Updated - - -

Those are from 2005... I've definitely improved in my modeling and painting skills. Still, they were nice and simple and got the job done.

[Just Tony]

I disagree with your comments about Joe Orteza's models. I thought those were stunning and they often included bits from GW models. Those were works of art and he obviously put a lot of time, money, and love into making those models.

However, cheap-skating around with toys, Coke bottles, etc so you don't have to paint I find disappointing. Those "conversions" or "proxies" are rarely painted or have any creative effort put into making it represent what the rulebook describes. However, the guy who converted Mr. Potatohead into an Ork Stompa obviously put the time, love and effort into converting and painting and I have no problem playing against those models.

For me it's the issue of being able to tell what I'm playing against. That giant scorpion of his that had a couple weapon barrels sticking out of it would be a prime example. THAT was supposed to represent a Land Raider. His entire army was on that level. Yeah, congrats for sinking TONS of money and time on it, but since NOTHING in that army looked like what it was supposed to represent, I would have picked up if it were a casual game. It was even worse that it was a tourney that he brought it to. I once again bring up the Warzone army that someone brought to the table back in the day. Sure, you could tell they were humans and supposed to be an IG proxy, but NONE of the weapons had any of the visual cues that would lead you to instinctively know what they were, and I certainly don't have the time nor patience to try to navigate some sort of handwritten conversion chart for his army, not that he bothered to write one up. Proxying a unit or a large model is a vast difference than bringing some wad of whatever the hell it is and saying "Oh, you can't tell? That's army X."