Mark V Armour

[grimmas]

Forgeworld have rereleased their Heresey era Armour marks and very nice they are too (the MkII are my favourite). However the MKVs just don't sit right with me.

MKV Heresey armour is supposed to be an amalgamation of jury rigged Mks II-IV armour parts necessary to make up for a lack of spares for the current issue MK IV. If this is so why the hell does it have a totally different helmet, knee guards and greaves to any of the preceding types. It just doesn't make sense. I know there was some flannel about the helmet being an prototype for MKVII but why the devil would there be so many of them when it hadn't even gone into production, don't forget MKVI wasn't issued still after the drop site massacres.

I know the rule of cool rules all and I could just get the models for the other Marks a just mix them up, but it just seems strange how they'd go out of there way to produce a narative for the armour (they make quite a thing about in Deliverence Lost) and then produce somthing different. It's quite a good idea and justification for why it exists the models just don't fit it.

Does this bother anyone else or does anything else spring to mind of stuff that's described but the models don't fit the description?

[Kirsten]

it was something I noticed, but MkV has been a thing for a long time, so it isn't really easily explained

[Path Walker]

I always thought MK V wasn't so much jury rigged repairs to armour but suits that were able to be manufactured by Techmarines given limited parts. So they used stop-gap techniques (like the molecular bonding studs) and scavenged certain parts from other Marks and used those to make into a serviceable suit of Power Armour.

[Haighus]

I think a lot of the justification comes from MkV also being a simplification of the earlier marks- the greaves and shoulders and knee guards are different because they are crappy copies made from worse material and only comparable because they've shoved the molecular bonding studs all over them.
Likewise is probably true of the helmets- that pattern of respirator was only just beginning to come into use at the out-break of the Heresy, and Legion armourers probably decided it was much faster to produce than the advanced systems of MkIV, and just started churning them out to replace losses.

I think MkVII actually ended up in mass production before MkVI, as the Raven Guard, Alpha Legion and Imperial Fists were still the main users of the pattern by the Battle of Terra (the Raven Guard due to being issued the first mass prototypes, the IFs due to their proximity to Terra and getting as much of the good equipment as they could in preparation for the Siege over the course of the Heresy, and Alpha Legion because... no one knows.)

[completeHook]

16975

Back in olden days they just used to break out the sketch pad and the Milliput, stick the kettle on, whack on Powerslave and have a bit of a go at it.

This abomination (#2)

16976

became this sexy beast

16977

Forgeworld do have a really good track record of taking the the essence of the old designs and making something that stands up to today's standards.

[YorkNecromancer]

The reason's pretty simple.

Mark IV =
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Walther_WA_2000.JPG/800px-Walther_WA_2000.JPG

while Mk V =
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/%D0%90%D0%9A-47.jpg/800px-%D0%90%D0%9A-47.jpg

Logistics and economics are what drove the production of the Mk V. The Mark IV suit is the pinnacle of power armour; it's elegant, sophisticated, in every way the technological apex of humanity's personal defensive technologies. But, in the words of Lucius Fox, 'turns out the bean counters didn't think a soldier's life was worth thirty grand'.

Enter Mk V. It's cheap, ugly, but damn does it get the job done.

It's pretty much the only time 40K has ever acknowledged economics is A Thing, and I cherish it for that exact reason.

Wars cost a sh!tton of money, and even with the entire resources of the Imperium, that doesn't mean the precious Astartes get all the toys they want. Sometimes, they have to make do too.

[Chris*ta]

Ugh. Every time I see that Walther, it still looks awful. And I'd say a better analogy would be:

Mk IV
http://media-minecraftforum.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/443/635721453829059434.jpg

Mk V
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sub-Machine-Gun-Sten-Gun-Mark-2.jpg

Which would mean Mk 6 is a late-production Sten, and Mk 7 is ... an H&K MP5? And I suppose the Mk 8 is the UMP ...

[Haighus]

Ugh. Every time I see that Walther, it still looks awful. And I'd say a better analogy would be:

Mk IV
http://media-minecraftforum.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/443/635721453829059434.jpg

Mk V
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sub-Machine-Gun-Sten-Gun-Mark-2.jpg

Which would mean Mk 6 is a late-production Sten, and Mk 7 is ... an H&K MP5? And I suppose the Mk 8 is the UMP ...

I reckon Mk6 would be a Sterling?

[Chris*ta]

I reckon Mk6 would be a Sterling?

I did consider that.

My understanding is that the later Stens and the Sterling are fairly similar, right?

[grimmas]

MKV was never mass produced though it was an Ad-hoc affair using what ever was available which was basically bit of other suits. It wasn't the cheaper option it was the only option because they were unable to access the manufacturing base for power armour. Really none of the suits should look the same much less all have the same helmets and greaves that look to come from a design not yet manufactured.

[Alaric]

MKV was never mass produced though it was an Ad-hoc affair using what ever was available which was basically bit of other suits. It wasn't the cheaper option it was the only option because they were unable to access the manufacturing base for power armour. Really none of the suits should look the same much less all have the same helmets and greaves that look to come from a design not yet manufactured.

I heard on a Podcast that one of the honchos at forgeworld I want to say his name was Lori Goulding or something like that I could be totally wrong on the name, but anyways, it shouldn't even be called a mark of armor and apparently when people call it mark 5 it drives him up the wall because it was never produced as a full set it was adhoc as you say.

[Haighus]

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2014/9/13/646695_sm-Copyright%20Gamesworkshop,%20Sons%20Of%20Horus.png
Look suspiciously like MkV? This comes from a MkIV armoured Sons of Horus officer who fought at Isstvan III. The helmet at least already existed. MkV was produced, but it was produced in an ad-hoc manner, which is the cobbled together side of it. It wasn't a standardised design, and the designation MkV was a retrospective move post-Heresy as a catch-all for the similar designs employed as a stop-gap during the Heresy. This pattern of respirator (the mantilla pattern) must have proved far easier to replicate in limited production facilities than the standard MkIV respirator.

[Alaric]

Could be like the beaky helmet. Limited production run from a ditched or experimental pattern put on ice then found.
Can almost imagine a legionnaire reporting back
"breached the doors sir"
"whats inside?"
"helmets sir. Wall to wall helmets."

Then they divvy them out to their allies. Any evidence of manufactorums specialized in just armor parts, not full suits? Would kind of explain the consistency in looks to certain parts. Ad hoc seems to imply rebuilds and modifications (to me) and there isnt enough variety.

[Denzark]

The original fluff (UK WD 129) had the armour as a stop gap, using other components - the helmet was a spin off from the Terminator Armour program.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/246657200/White-Dwarf-129-UK-September-1990#scribd

[grimmas]

It certainly did Denzark but that has been expanded on since. The terminator helmet doesn't really explain why there's so many of them or the complete absence of MkII and III parts.

Haigus good point on the helmet.

[Chris*ta]

If you look at the original fluff in WD129, I don't think ad hoc is the best description. My recollection is that the design was rushed -- using elements of the design from existing marks, as well as a helmet based around the Terminator model. The suits weren't literally cobbled together from existing parts; the design was an amalgam of bits of existing designs.

Which is not to say that in the field damaged components wouldn't've been replaced with bits from other suits, and/or bits subbed out where the alternative was better.

[Arkhan Land]

It certainly did Denzark but that has been expanded on since. The terminator helmet doesn't really explain why there's so many of them or the complete absence of MkII and III parts.

Haigus good point on the helmet.

something as ancient as mark II or III parts would have been scattered pretty hard but there are other issues on how different these armours were compared to the later ones. Mark II is built of micro-fitted rings of cermatie, which was noted as being tougher to repair and adapt for use with other later models parts, the III is super heavy and armoured making the use of its parts beneficial for armour purposes but not cool for stealth/mobility. also III was made as a specialized suit and not necessarily a standard replacement so its unknown how many were actually made

[grimmas]

To be totally fair to them I think the problem started when they put Marine in what was to become known as MKVII (they hadn't named the armour types at this point) on the cover art of First Ed Space Marine.

16980

And they've being trying to paper over it since.

I would have liked it if they'd taken the opportunity to make the models to fit with the current (which has been around quite a while) background to it after all they'd only ever made one of the WD 129 MKVs as it were.

I probably fit into the same category at the Forge World chappie Alaric mentions.

[grimmas]

something as ancient as mark II or III parts would have been scattered pretty hard but there are other issues on how different these armours were compared to the later ones. Mark II is built of micro-fitted rings of cermatie, which was noted as being tougher to repair and adapt for use with other later models parts, the III is super heavy and armoured making the use of its parts beneficial for armour purposes but not cool for stealth/mobility. also III was made as a specialized suit and not necessarily a standard replacement so its unknown how many were actually made

I'd always thought that MKII &III would have taken longer to manufacture due to the rings but it would have made it easier/cheaper to repair because one would only have to replace the damaged rings rather than the whole greave for example. Where as with MKIV and above the one piece nature of things like the greaves would have made mass production easier but you would need to replace the whole damaged part much like how Mail armour was supplanted by the plate once production methods improved and they are able to press out breastplates and the like (and of course it offers petter protection). The net result being that the earlier marks require less spares which wasn't really relevant when the Imperium as a whole was supplying the Legions but became an issue once the Heresey started to squeeze things.

[Haighus]

I'd always thought that MKII &III would have taken longer to manufacture due to the rings but it would have made it easier/cheaper to repair because one would only have to replace the damaged rings rather than the whole greave for example. Where as with MKIV and above the one piece nature of things like the greaves would have made mass production easier but you would need to replace the whole damaged part much like how Mail armour was supplanted by the plate once production methods improved and they are able to press out breastplates and the like (and of course it offers petter protection). The net result being that the earlier marks require less spares which wasn't really relevant when the Imperium as a whole was supplying the Legions but became an issue once the Heresey started to squeeze things.
I reckon the difference in repair is somewhat similar to the differences between WWII tanks. The T34 was very easy to repair, if there was a problem with one of the road wheels, they could be easily taken off and swapped for a fresh one.
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr167/amesJussellR/Soviet%20T34/T3476.jpg
A bit like a greave on MkIV, the whole piece can be easily removed and replaced. It may be difficult to repair the greave itself once removed, but it is very easy to replace it.
MkII is more like a German tank, which was just as effective in terms of function, but if one of the road wheels on the inside of the drive assembly, adjacent to the hull, broke, multiple road wheels had to be removed to replace the wheel, because the wheels overlap.
http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag377/RubiconModels/Panther/PantherTracksFront_zpsb2d6b60f.jpg
Similarly, in MkII greaves, if one of the middle rings is badly damaged, it is likely at least one other ring would have to be removed to replace it, because the rings overlap, and there are more attachments and articulation points that may need repairing.
It is likely simple to manufacture because is it generally easier to make smaller segments of something than one large, complete piece.

[Haighus]

To be totally fair to them I think the problem started when they put Marine in what was to become known as MKVII (they hadn't named the armour types at this point) on the cover art of First Ed Space Marine.

16980

And they've being trying to paper over it since.
To be fair, MkVII is introduced before the end of the Heresy by the loyalist forces, when they evacuate armour researchers from Mars and continue development, so that picture could still be accurate if it is set very late in the Heresy. The helmet of the Marine in the foreground is a MkVII helmet not a MkV helmet (due to the exposed cabling of the respirator) so there isn't really any other explanation for it.


I would have liked it if they'd taken the opportunity to make the models to fit with the current (which has been around quite a while) background to it after all they'd only ever made one of the WD 129 MKVs as it were.

I probably fit into the same category at the Forge World chappie Alaric mentions.

The White Dwarf article actually says that MkV suits were newly produced, and that the old parts used were components such as cabling, not entire sections of armour, like legs or arms. It says the armour plating itself was produced by the Techmarine artificers using whatever they had to hand and reinforced with the bonding studs, so it never described as just being a mismatch of different armour patterns, but more as a rough and ready group of similar designs using whatever components they could easily produce or were readily available but with improvised armour plating over the top.

[Arkhan Land]

Haig and Grimm

for whatever reason in all of the entries I have on mk II and III it says it was harder to repair, maybe more useful as a point in terms of plots than actual real life physics. maybe at the times in RT and 2nd/3rd they just decided the "Archaic" nature of it appealed to the fluff at the time. though granted at this point there were like two or three decent metal models for that jam I dont think they ever anticipated them being for anything more than hobbyists seeking to illustrate the history of 40k. I have a few of these guys sort of just in the general population of my space marines.

as a thought on the heresey model armour thing versus real one, at the time they started to expand that fluff is when they released a bunch of of the torso only versions of a few alternate armour marks, Ide really have to scour my codexes and Stuff Of Legends to figure out which, perhaps at the time GW was trying to explain what would only naturally be a variety of arms being used with these jams, keep in mind this is a super far out weird guess/thought/idea

[Haighus]

Haig and Grimm

for whatever reason in all of the entries I have on mk II and III it says it was harder to repair, maybe more useful as a point in terms of plots than actual real life physics. maybe at the times in RT and 2nd/3rd they just decided the "Archaic" nature of it appealed to the fluff at the time. though granted at this point there were like two or three decent metal models for that jam I dont think they ever anticipated them being for anything more than hobbyists seeking to illustrate the history of 40k. I have a few of these guys sort of just in the general population of my space marines.

as a thought on the heresey model armour thing versus real one, at the time they started to expand that fluff is when they released a bunch of of the torso only versions of a few alternate armour marks, Ide really have to scour my codexes and Stuff Of Legends to figure out which, perhaps at the time GW was trying to explain what would only naturally be a variety of arms being used with these jams, keep in mind this is a super far out weird guess/thought/idea

I agreed with you :) I thought the MkII was like the hard-to-repair German track system, and the MkIV was much more modular and easy to swap out.

[grimmas]

I agreed with you :) I thought the MkII was like the hard-to-repair German track system, and the MkIV was much more modular and easy to swap out.

Something I would also agree with. But that's the issue in the current background they don't have those modular parts as they need to be centrally manufactured and the Heresy has buggered their supply line. So they needed use the more accessible tech of the early suits to make do and mend which results in the MKV suits. Which gets to my original gripe which is the models don't represent it they visually have more in common with the later MKVI armour rather than the earlier stuff they were made from.

[Haighus]

They don't share the same armour plating as the earlier Mks though- the armour plating is improvised plate over the components (such as the power cabling) shared with earlier Mks. The Legion artificers have basically welded a load of crappy armour over the exoskeleton and reinforced it with the studs- there isn't really any need for it to resemble the earlier Mks in terms of shape- the visual commonalities IMO come mainly from the bulkier look of MkV and the more brutal, rough appearance of it and it's components. I feel there should be more variety in the MkV pack to represent the less standardised design of the 'mark', in particular with the respirators, but the general feel of the armour fits with its background. It isn't just MkII and III combined into one suit, it is MkII and III components such as the power cabling and autosenses jury-rigged into the most easy to produce effective armour the Legion artificers can get away with, with as many scavenged MkIV components as possible if they are available.

In essence, what the White Dwarf article above is trying to say, and what is not contradicted by later fluff, is that the Legions were trying to make MkIV with MkII/III spare parts and whatever they could get their hands on. So it should look more like MkIV than MkII/III, because that is the goal the Legions are trying to emulate.

[grimmas]

I'm like your reasoning there. The Models just feel like they were trying emulate MKVII plate rather than MKIV plate and they are too uniform. they look like cobbled together MKVIIs rather than MKIV

I'd also add that the old white dwarf is a bit contradicted in that it does have MKV as being a distinct design of armour that uses the old parts to make it cheaper and easier to manufacture than MKIV rather than being MKIV suits using old parts to keep them going as they are currently


Top discussion folks I really enjoyed it. Thank you

[Haighus]

I'm like your reasoning there. The Models just feel like they were trying emulate MKVII plate rather than MKIV plate and they are too uniform. they look like cobbled together MKVIIs rather than MKIV
I would agree with that- they've clearly tried to make a 'missing link' Mk between the two, and it should have a few more visual commonalities with MkIV I think.


I'd also add that the old white dwarf is a bit contradicted in that it does have MKV as being a distinct design of armour that uses the old parts to make it cheaper and easier to manufacture than MKIV rather than being MKIV suits using old parts to keep them going as they are currently
It sort of has them as both- it's less a mark than a sort of grouped collection of similar scratch-built armours with similar characteristics due to expediency.



Top discussion folks I really enjoyed it. Thank you Likewise. Glad it dredged that cool White Dwarf up too, that was an interesting read.

[OzDestro]

Hey there,
interesting conversation, but I think we need to acknowledge that the lore around MK V has changed in recent (and not do recent) times.

When Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine were introduced in the late 80s and they started looking at the Horus Heresy, the MK V (at the time my favourite armour) was explained as armour that COULD have other armour integrated with it when certain pieces of amour were short or couldn't be replaced.
You could then add a MK III greaves or a MK II to MK V armour and it be fully operational for example.

There was a heirarchy at the time of what Marks could be used with other marks (MKIV for example couldn't be used with anything else as it was a special Mark that ended up being too hard to mass produce) - not sure if this is still the way.

There were, therefore, whole suits of MK V deployed and they can be seen in a lot of the art from that time representing the Marines during the Heresy - thus Heresy Armour.

The idea that it's hobbled together seems to be a new thing and a bit silly in my mind.
Why give it a Mark number at all if it's not standard?
The old lore explains why - it was a full Mark that could use other bits giving it variety, but there could also be whole suits.

Hope this helps in the discussion.