BA Vanguard Vet Squad Question (strategy opinion)

[lobster-overlord]

Hi all,

I have a bunch of old marines built using tactical bodies and assault arms. Basically Blood Claw kits without the wolf bits, that I was using as Vet Assault Squads without the jump packs using the old codex Blood Angels (1999 print, not the PDF). Now with the new codex, using their equipment set, they fit under Vanguard Vet Squads, with no Jump Packs. Is there any point to taking Vanguard without JPs, AND without a Transport, or should I use these as my units for Rhino rushes, and the like? I mainly have them built this way because that's what I had in the way of parts at the time.

Thanks for the input all. I'm not very adept in the strategery realm.

John M.

[Tynskel]

You can take them without Jump Packs (you have to purchase Jump Packs, they actually start as Infantry).

You do not have to buy a Transport.

You can run them as is: They would be a close combat Infantry Squad with lots of attacks. That's it!

[lobster-overlord]

That's what I'm getting at, but are they worth the points vs just having tactical squads or paying the cost of the jump packs. They are 25 points more for 9 extra attacks over the tactical squad, so there is that. I suppose that alone makes it advantageous to have them but is it worth the FA slot when I have so many options? That's where I guess I'm going with this.

JohN M.

[Tynskel]

on that point, the composition of the rest of your force will give you your answer.

Vanguard are a slaughter unit-- they are meant to go up to an enemy unit and remove the enemy from the board.

Assault Squads and Tactical Squads do not have the capability to slaughter the way Sternguard and Vanguard can- so they are holding units. These units are meant to stand and prevent the enemy from removing them.

Ultimately, your decision comes down to two factors: 1) do you like your models- do you want them to see action! If this is a priority, you should take them. 2) Do you have a unit that will smash an opponent in your army-- if you do not, then Vanguard might fill that niche.

There is no real 'correct' answer for #2. This completely depends on your force design.

[Eusebius Rex]

The new Vanguard of the BA codex are far superior to C:SM types. They are a little cheaper and with DoA will be able to use Heroic Intervention almost everytime. You can drop in and assault ANYWHERE on the board starting round 2 (remember DoA also allows you to reroll if your Vanguard come in).

As far as the points go, they are very cost effective. Vets with a Sgt/power weapon and jump packs are just 165pts. Assault Marines with the same Sgt/Pwpn is 115pts. Those extra 50 points give you 4 more attacks in an immediate assault the same round they come on the table. I suppose you could add 2 more Assault Marines to that squad and get 6 more attacks, two give the squad 2 more on the assault but you have to make it to the assault first and assault marines are fragile after being dropped on the board and making thier 18" dash into the assault. The Vanguard's Heroic intervention capability is just worth way more than the points difference/ attack difference compared to 7 assault marines.

Vanguard in a Rhino are way less cost effective. The cost of a BA Rhino is 50pts, which is exactly the cost of 5 jump packs - so you pay the samepointage to get shot up and possible be forced to hoof it across the board. The Assault Marines in a Rhino don't even get an even trade for thier JPs - they have to pay some points still.

With DoA, it isn't worth Rhino rushing any longer with assaulters. Get then into action faster with DoA.

I've played 7 games now with my all jump pack list. Dropping in with DoA is awesome and the vanguard are a big part to it. I have 3x melta in 3x assault marine squads and they try to kill transport vehilces while the vanguard drop into assault passengers as they baile out. It has worked ok thus far and against Nids or tank heavy list I use them to get the heavies into an assault fast, so they are quite versital. Vanguard do get more expensive as you add them as every 5 cost 150pts, true enough.

[DarkLink]

If you can judge 6" accurately, then Heroic Intervention is almost guaranteed. Place your first model just out of 6" so you don't have to worry about scattering into the enemy, then when you place the other models in the unit you can put them so they are within 6" for the assault. Then at least you won't mishap, though you can still scatter away and be out of assault range.

[lobster-overlord]

Thanks for the great info guys, but again, these are models that I've had, that do not have jump packs, nor do I wish to convert them ( I actually have more models to packs on). The viability of Rhino Rushing, as E.Rex points to is what I'm looking at with them.

I do certainly have a jump pack unit of Vanguard (two to be precise), but I'll likely then just old the Rhino based unit for Apoc games then.

Thanks all for the replies.

John M>