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Kahoolin
04-10-2010, 12:06 AM
I've always had a bit of a thing for the Navigators in 40k. Info on them is pretty hard to track down compared to a lot of other organizations in the 40k universe, which makes them pretty mysterious. I've also always thought there was great potential for a Black Library book focussing on the Navigator Houses, and when I was in high school I even started to write one. The idea of the warp eye just has so much potential it's really sad it isn't explored further.

Anyway, I think I've just figured out why the Navis are so under-represented in BL publications (and 40k fluff in general), and why there can never be a BL book featuring them in any major capacity: Frank Herbert's estate would sue the crap out of GW :D

Even if they retconned the Navis to get rid of all the overt Dune stuff (like their slow transformation into worms who live in sealed tanks :rolleyes: ), they're still left with the basic, bare bones facts that by now are too entrenched in 40k to ever be done away with, i.e. powerful ancient houses of mutants that enable faster-than-light travel, keeping the otherwise fractured Imperium together. Poor old Navis Nobilite, just another one of those embarrassing Rogue Trader "tributes" to 70s/80's scifi that can never really go anywhere but are really cool.

Don;t know why I brought this up, just thought people might be interested as to a possible reason why the Navigator houses are doomed to take a background role in modern 40k lore.

Madness
04-10-2010, 12:42 AM
Mostly because they are mutants with little capabilities other than the navigator ones, and considering how much harsher 40k is compared to Dune, trying to coerce the imperium into paying them respect might mean eating a lot of lead/laser for breakfast.

Melissia
04-10-2010, 08:35 AM
Read the Rogue Trader roleplay system, it's practically built for that kind of thing. The third Ciaphas Cain book has an example of how revered-- and feared-- the Navigators are.

Madness: They can kill you just by looking at you. They have a great deal of respect.

Just_Me
04-10-2010, 11:53 AM
Even if they retconned the Navis to get rid of all the overt Dune stuff (like their slow transformation into worms who live in sealed tanks :rolleyes: ).

I agree that there is a lot of Dune reference in navigators, though I'm pretty sure they don't actually turn into literal worms. There IS a transformation as they age, but as far as I know they remain reasonably humanoid in most respects. Are you quoting Rogue Trader era lore on this? If so I'm afraid it's something I'm unfamiliar with...


Mostly because they are mutants with little capabilities other than the navigator ones, and considering how much harsher 40k is compared to Dune, trying to coerce the imperium into paying them respect might mean eating a lot of lead/laser for breakfast.

Well, they have a hell of a lot of abilities beyond "just" navigation; as Melissa said looking into their warp eye can kill or dive a man insane, and the most ancient and powerful can literally destroy matter with the gaze of their third eye. Check out the Rogue Trader RPG, there is a reasonable amount of information on the navigators, their houses, and their abilities in there.

Also, they are one of the few organization powerful enough TO coerce the Imperium to pay them respect. Heck, they have a permanent seat on the council of the High Lords, how much more respect and influence can you possibly get?

Personally I agree with Kahoolin, some navigator fiction would be really interesting, more subtle than the usual 40k fair, full of intrigue and vicious political machinations, heady stuff if well written.

wittdooley
04-10-2010, 01:44 PM
Read the two Andy Hoare books I reviewed. While they focus more on the rogue traders, their navigators figure in quite a bit in the plot.

Also, in Soul Hunter there is a quite a bit of good info on navigators as well.

Kahoolin
04-10-2010, 03:15 PM
Ah, I haven't read the RT RPG yet, I'll get on that. Anything with more Navis info is of interest to me. I'll also check out those books Wittdooley mentioned when I have time.


I agree that there is a lot of Dune reference in navigators, though I'm pretty sure they don't actually turn into literal worms. There IS a transformation as they age, but as far as I know they remain reasonably humanoid in most respects. Are you quoting Rogue Trader era lore on this? If so I'm afraid it's something I'm unfamiliar with...Hmmm, I'm not sure. That's what I remember from Rogue Trader, but I was a kid back then and I gave away my RT book ages ago. Could be I'm confusing 40k lore with Dune, but I'm pretty sure they end up (in 40k) blobbing around in palanquins with vestigial limbs. Doesn't Shira Calpurnia meet one like that? Not that Rogue Trader and Shira necessarily count as viable background nowadays.

Curse my poor memory, too many late nights lately :o

Melissia
04-10-2010, 05:43 PM
They DO develope mutations over time, but they're very specific and they don't have to end up with the character being unable to move. In fact, one of them gives them "unnatural health".

gorepants
04-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Originally navigators were described as being a subspecies of human that with a broad spectrum of mutations. Most looked human, but may have been spindly, translucent skin, large eyes and underdeveloped facial features, large, and possibly webbed, hands and feet, and little or no body hair. The constant space travel causes them to age prematurely (at least in appearence). Navigator families share strong physical resemblances. This is pre navis nobilite, and navigators were more like noble houses of renaisance times, in that they were more of a club (like the masons) than an proper economic or political organisation. Their only psychic power was navigation, and other than that they were for all intents and purposes normal (if creepy looking) humans (and no more disposed to warp attacks).

Some point later (I don't know when, except it was probably rogue trader era), they got described as having a thrid, warp eye. Unfortunately this got changed into a literal third eye (the one that can kill you with a glance) by some bad writing, and I think this has stuck. haven't read much newer stuff with them, certainly outside black library books (and it seems some of the writers treat it as a bit like voodoo - look out kids be good or the navi will get you with is evil eye!).

Personally I think it's all a bit over the top - they don't really need all the super powers and death ray eyes. They just have to say, hey if I die you're stuck here. Which is pretty good protection if you ask me.

In Dune older navigators migrate in to their spice-water tanks, and slowly change into fish men (at least by the third book - never got further than that). Might be what you're both thinking of.

Melissia
04-10-2010, 06:23 PM
I prefer it this way.

In 40k, everything is lethal. Even your navigator.

gorepants
04-10-2010, 06:53 PM
I prefer it this way.

In 40k, everything is lethal. Even your navigator.

Lols, I'm just old and grumpy - nothing should change, back to first ed!

Back on topic, the problem with Herbet's estate suing anyone are tw fold - 1. they've left it 25+ years, and, since the whole of 40k imperial mythos is stolen from a homage to Dune, it might be a little late to call copyright on it; 2. I'm pretty sure the dedicated specialist navigator who can see further than others is a pretty general trope - I'm sure I've read one or two books with similar types in them. Now if only I could remember what thos books were...

Spirit Leech
04-10-2010, 07:22 PM
Herbert's estate trying to corner the market on magical space navigators has about as much chance as Heinlein's trying to get back space marines or Lewis's trying to corner the market on magical home decor.

I've found navigator's to be the most class in rogue trader to play. You get the air of mystique that the psyker does without worrying about your friends puttiing a bullet in your head for peril's of the warp. You can only fail so many rolls horribly before everyone around you decides you are in league with the ruinous powers.

Kahoolin
04-10-2010, 07:47 PM
Herbert's estate trying to corner the market on magical space navigators has about as much chance as Heinlein's trying to get back space marines or Lewis's trying to corner the market on magical home decor.You think? I can't think of any examples of magical space navigators except for Dune and 40k, and the 40k ones are pretty obviously an uh... homage to Dune's.

Spirit Leech
04-10-2010, 08:05 PM
I don't know how this would hold up in court, but it seems to me that they have let it slide for a little too long to do anything about now.

Old_Paladin
04-10-2010, 08:47 PM
I take it that no one reads the Spacewolves series.
It has an entire book (Wolfblade) about Ragnar living with a Navigator house.
It's great insight into how the houses think, act, view themselves and how others view them.

Melissia
04-10-2010, 10:28 PM
I prefer the Rogue Trader Roleplay myself, though-- it's intended to help you ROLEPLAY a Navis Nobilite, after all.

The_Ancient
04-11-2010, 08:21 AM
The space wolf series threw me with its interpretation on navigators (mainly because they no longer killed people with their warp eye).
I liked the navigator in the inquisition wars series who has to wear a bandana all the time to hide his eye and fantasises about getting sliced up by demonettes (I may have made this up though as i haven't read those books for like 10 years or so)

The_Ancient
04-11-2010, 08:24 AM
oh yeah and in the space wolf books it does indicate that some seriously freaky mutations go down as a navigator ages which is a nice twist if you as me, possibly due to the influence of the warp, lateral alien gene transfer or a hefty 10 000 years plus of inbreeding

Melissia
04-11-2010, 10:25 AM
The mutations listed in Rogue Trader are as follows (some of them are mutually exclusive, marked with *)

Strangely jointed limbs
Elongated form *
Pale and hairless flesh
Eyes as dark as the void (completely black, no iris or whites)
Withered form *
Membranous growth (between digits and on armpits, like an amphibian)
Bloated form *
Inhuman visage (no facial features, slit where the nose would be, unblinking eyes)
Fingers like talons
Teeth as sharp as needles
Disturbing grace
Strange vitality
Unnatural presence (you feel extremely unnatural to everyone around you)