Deploying guard...

[Walls]

Wewere having this discussion in our local club as the topic has become a hot one during an ongoing league. I posted this elsewhere, but figured I can get even more feedback here. My original post is followed by an answer and my response to that answer...



Guard platoon deploy as 1, whether normally or in reserve. This brings up some questions
--Do you HAVE to deploy the entire platoon or can a unit or two stay in reserve? According to the codex, they deploy as one.
--In turn, does this mean the oft used SWS in a vendetta flank marching is illegal?
--Also, doesn't this mean a platoon cannot be deployed during Dawn of War? You can only deploy 2 units from troops. You can have minimum 3 units in a troops choice.

And before anyone argues that point (not that I think anyone will), a platoon is not a unit. If so it must remain in unit coherency as a whole and the order affects the entire unit. We all know this doesn't happen.

However, my above questions raise some good points. Basically, according to the codex and the Dawn of War rules, a platoon cannot be deployed in a DoW mission. It must move on as a whole. The platoon is rolled for as a WHOLE when doing reserves or deployed as a WHOLE. It would also seem to affect some strategies many players have by using flank marching valks and vendettas to flank march parts of a platoon.

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you can decide to put individual units in reserve from a platoon....

in dawn of war, the platoon cannot be deployed as a whole..but some elements can be deployed as long as the limit of 2 troops (and note, the chimera is a SEPARATE unit for the purpose of DOW) is not broken...

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While the Dawn of War rules started the conversation, the rules on deployment continued it. It, to me at least, seems fairly explicit, yet confusing in it's description. If that makes any sense

"Each infantry platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled collectively when rolling for reserves."

While I can see the potential for holding units in reserve, you can't hold them in a valkryie. There is nothing saying that Valk is coming on at the same time. It's not a dedicated transport, so is rolled seperately. As well, the entire platoon remnants would come on as a whole, at the same time. If you hold both SWS and a regular 10 man squad off in reserve, they come in together. The Valk rolls seperately. I don't see how this can really be worked around.

[deadmanwade]

Seems like you cant do it. You could always bunch up a whole mess of squads and deploy them as one unit along with your Platoon Commad Squad.
You wouldnt be able to do the SWS in a valk though. Personally I'd take Veterans anyway since they can do the same thing but better.
Or you could talk to your opponent and ask if it was ok. In most games I dont see why it wouldnt be. Its not like starting with 2 x10 man squads on the table is going to make a whole lot of difference seeing as how they are dirt cheap and not very good by themselves.

[Lord Azaghul]

Here's the short and the dirty.

It has become commonly excepted (since gw wasn't kind enough to faq it) that up to 2 unit from your platoon may deploy in dawn of war, the rest of the platoon MUST roll on turn 1. Since as you stated, the platoon is not one unit.

IF units such as valk, vends, are carring part of the platoon, the MUST come in at the same time as the platoon, IE they are attached to any reserve roll or deployment that the platoon is subject too.

[BlueRonin]

This ties into a similar discussion that was run elsewhere:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=3506&highlight=BLUERONIN

The most common interpretation I've seen clubs and tournaments end up with is that units in Valkyries have deployment rules superseded by the Valkyries' deployment rules. So once an element of an Infantry Platoon was embarked in a Valk' the rules and rolls were made according to the Valk.


IF units such as valk, vends, are carring part of the platoon, the MUST come in at the same time as the platoon, IE they are attached to any reserve roll or deployment that the platoon is subject too.

The problem with this, as discussed in the thread above; is that you could then exploit the interpretation to bring up to 9 Valkyries on at the same time, simply by embarking every element of an Infantry Platoon on Valkyries.

[Lord Azaghul]

The problem with this, as discussed in the thread above; is that you could then exploit the interpretation to bring up to 9 Valkyries on at the same time, simply by embarking every element of an Infantry Platoon on Valkyries.

How is that a problem? 9 Valks showing up at once just means you have crowed table edges, and RAW: That just the way the rules work. It’s not a rules stretch or violation by any reach of the imagination.

Frankly I think it’s stupid that guard can’t deploy the entire platoon in Dawn of War, which seems to be case of the brb over ruling the codex. But everyone throws a fit if you try to play it that way.

[Walls]

I am not sure that IS how the rules work. Are we sure that NON dedicated transports roll with the unit that would be in them?

[Lord Azaghul]

I am not sure that IS how the rules work. Are we sure that NON dedicated transports roll with the unit that would be in them?

Yes.
If you declare at deployment that your SM tact squad will be held in reserved with INSIDE the landraider, then that's one roll on the reserves chart. Valks are the same.

[BlueRonin]

Yes.
If you declare at deployment that your SM tact squad will be held in reserved with INSIDE the landraider, then that's one roll on the reserves chart. Valks are the same.

The Space Marine inside a Land Raider doesn't establish a precedence, because nobody is questioning whether or not the Valkyrie can deploy together with its embarked unit. The issue here is the 'platoon coherency', which raises the question of how you deploy multiple independent units in relationship to each other, based on a single obscure special rule. The Space Marines do not have anything that compares to the IG 'platoon coherency' rule, and so the Land Raider example is a mute point.

What it comes down to, in essence; is "who joins who". The wording on Independent Characters and dedicated transports both pretty clearly state that they join the infantry platoon unit, but when that unit embarks into a non-dedicated transport it is unclear (not to mention meaningless in any other situation than this one).

If the Valkyrie 'joins' the infantry platoon unit, I would agree that it was rolled for as part of the entire platoon - but then I would be skeptical to whether it could Deep Strike or Outflank, as the infantry platoon unit has neither of these abilities.

As the Valkyrie (or Vendetta) is a separate FOC entry, I find it more plausible that the infantry platoon unit 'joins' the Valkyrie - in which case the Valkyrie would be able to Deep Strike or Outflank, but would be rolled for separately.

Also, there is nothing that indicates that a Special Weapon Squad cannot embark on a Valkyrie . see pg. 66 of the BRB.

Of course, the problem is that these are really all RAI interpretations as there isn't any actual reference to how non-dedicated transports work with Infantry Platoons. However, I've never seen anybody enforce that you have to either deploy or hold in reserve the entire Infantry Platoon together. Furthermore, I would I never expect anybody to allow an IG player to abuse breaking Valkyries' vehicle coherency if they had chosen a squadron of them but embarked units from different platoons into them, see what I mean?

[DarkLink]

I'm with Lord Azaghul on this one. Transports merge with the unit they're transporting for purposes of rolling for reserves. Their's nothing to indicate that they would then lose their "entire platoon comes in together" rule.

[BlueRonin]

Okay, so how should I handle the following situation:

I have three Infantry Platoons, each with a Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads.

I take a squadrons of 3 Vendettas (Squadron A) and two squadrons of 3 Valkyries (Squadrons B and C)

I embark each Platoon Command Squad in a Vendetta, then a pick a squad from each platoon and mount in each their Valkyrie from Squadron B. The remaining squads each get a Valkyrie from Squadron C.

During deployment I declare everything in reserve, and when turn two comes around I roll for each platoon (one dice each), but only get one of those platoons in on the table... now what? Do I pick a Valkyrie/Vendetta out of each squadron and deploy, ignoring their coherency? And what about Deep Striking / Outflanking? Can I still do that, or did I loose then when the infantry squads embarked?

[Culven]

Guard platoon deploy as 1, whether normally or in reserve. This brings up some questions
To clarify, the Platoon rules state "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying. . .", but in standard missions, such as DoW, when does this even matter? We don't deploy by FOC choice anymore.

--Do you HAVE to deploy the entire platoon or can a unit or two stay in reserve? According to the codex, they deploy as one.
Nothing states that tehy must be deployed together.

--In turn, does this mean the oft used SWS in a vendetta flank marching is illegal?
I assume you mean Outflank (Flank March is Apocalypse, which is a whiole other kettle of fish). I don't se anything illegal about it. The embarked unit is just along for the ride.

--Also, doesn't this mean a platoon cannot be deployed during Dawn of War? You can only deploy 2 units from troops. You can have minimum 3 units in a troops choice.
So, simply deploy two units from the Troops choices per the mission rules. Perhaps the rest of the platoon is off duty at the time.


It has become commonly {accepted} that up to 2 unit from your platoon may deploy in dawn of war, the rest of the platoon MUST roll on turn 1.
I have never heard anyone claim that the rest of the platoon must come in on the first turn. It is an interesting house rule.

IF units such as valk, vends, are carring part of the platoon, the MUST come in at the same time as the platoon, IE they are attached to any reserve roll or deployment that the platoon is subject too.
Why and how? The Platoon and Valkyrie squad are different units with no rule allowing them to be rolled for collectively.

Frankly I think it’s stupid that guard can’t deploy the entire platoon in Dawn of War, which seems to be case of the brb over ruling the codex. But everyone throws a fit if you try to play it that way.
The DoW rules specifically refer to "units" and even provide an example of what would normally be a FOC and , if embarked, a single Reserves roll (a Space Marine Tactical squad with a Rhino) as counting as the two units selected from Troops choices permitted by the mission. The Platoon rules state that the Infantry Platoon is a single choice on the FOC when deploying. It says nothing about them counting as a single Unit.

Yes.
If you declare at deployment that your SM tact squad will be held in reserved with INSIDE the landraider, then that's one roll on the reserves chart. Valks are the same.
The rulebook uses an example of a single unit in a Transport that cannot be taken as a squad. In that case, it really doesn't matter if one is rolling for the Transport or for the embarked unit. This is not the case for the Valkyrie squadron where we could have multiple FOC units embarked in the squad. In this case, it is important to know whether we are rolling for the Transport squad or if we are to roll for each FOC represented by the embarked units. Personally, I would like to have three chances to bring in the Valkyrie Squad and the three embarked units, but I don't believe that was the intent. I am of the opinion that one is rolling for the Transport unit, and the embarked units just go along with them.

I'm with Lord Azaghul on this one. Transports merge with the unit they're transporting for purposes of rolling for reserves. Their's nothing to indicate that they would then lose their "entire platoon comes in together" rule.
They don't have a "entire platoon comes in together" rule. They have a rule that tells us, "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying. . .", which doesn't seem to matter since we don't consider FOC choices when deploying, and then it tells us they make a single Reserves roll. This wouldn't be affected by splitting off units unless there is nothing of the Platoon left to make its own Reserves roll.

[YourMomsBox]

Isn't it summed up by pg. 92 in the BRB.

"Multiple unit Choices

Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organization slot (like dedicated transports, etc.) Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."

[bob9801]

Isn't it summed up by pg. 92 in the BRB.

"Multiple unit Choices

Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organization slot (like dedicated transports, etc.) Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."

But the codex overrules the main rules. The codex says "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."

It looks like you can deploy as many units from the platoon as you want but any left in reserve would be rolled for together and then deploy together.

I am probably missing something but where is the quote that says you can place a squad in a none dedicated transport during deployment?

[DarkLink]

They don't have a "entire platoon comes in together" rule. They have a rule that tells us, "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying. . .", which doesn't seem to matter since we don't consider FOC choices when deploying, and then it tells us they make a single Reserves roll. This wouldn't be affected by splitting off units unless there is nothing of the Platoon left to make its own Reserves roll.

Meh, close enough. Rolling all together, coming in from reserves all together, same difference