crash and burn and skies of fury

[Angelofblades]

Scenario:

Storm raven is vector locked
Storm raven has passengers
Enemy unit at storm raven's final movement destination

Can the passengers perform Skies of Fury ?

[Perversor]

Scenario:

Storm raven is vector locked
Storm raven has passengers
Enemy unit at storm raven's final movement destination

Can the passengers perform Skies of Fury ?

Skies of fury allow you to place the unit *anywhere* along the distance the Stormraven moved that turn, not forced to do it at the very end. Thus you can perform it as rules indicate.

Vector locked or Crash and burn.

If the ship is under Crew stunned then you follow normal crew stunned rules and can perform Skies of fury anyway.

If you suffer a Crash and burn *wich should happen in the opponent turn ) you can't perform the Skies of fury to avoid the damage hit on the passengers when the ship crashes.

[Angelofblades]

If you suffer a Crash and burn *wich should happen in the opponent turn ) you can't perform the Skies of fury to avoid the damage hit on the passengers when the ship crashes.

A vector locked flyer is forced to move 18" in a straight line. It cannot turn, gonto hover or otherwise do anything else that move 18". If an enemy unit is it's path and it ends it's move ontop of the enemy unit, the flyer will crash and burn in the flyer owners turn.

Skies of fury say if the flyer has moved over 6" you can still disembark.

[Djbz]

I see no reason to assume they can't evacuate before the crash in that situation.
Though in my group we ignore the whole "flyers can't be within an inch of the enemy or it crashes" rule because their in the air

[Charistoph]

I see no reason to assume they can't evacuate before the crash in that situation.
Though in my group we ignore the whole "flyers can't be within an inch of the enemy or it crashes" rule because their in the air

Flyers don't Crash and Burn if it cannot move the 18", they are just Wrecked.

Gameplay-wise, there is almost no time for Crash and Burn to happen in a situation where the choice to Sky out of the Raven hasn't been made already. If it happens during the Movement Phase where they normally could use Skies of Fury, that means its Interceptor which places it after everything has already moved, so any choice of disembarking has already been made. About the only time I could even think it would be a case is if you're flying too close to an Obelisk and the Raven is on its last Hull Point. Talk about rare.

[Djbz]

Flyers don't Crash and Burn if it cannot move the 18", they are just wrecked.

Wrecked flyers crash and burn.

[Blood Shadow]

Wow.... Now I read this thread last night and figured someone would put you guys straight.

It didn't happen, so do what I did all of you go and read the rules for flyers, because none of these comments make sense to me!

Presuming "Vector Locked" you mean forced to move 18":

If the flyer ends up within an inch on an enemy unit just move the flyer/enemy unit to show the flyer is actually above them. If the unit is a titan, then you can make a call on what to do, but essentially there is no issues.

If the flyer moves 18" and you want to do Skies of Fury, sure go ahead, there's no restrictions.

With regards to damage and crash and burn, oh boy you guys need to go read the 7th Ed vehicle damage table, you might be surprised!

[Charon]

Wow.... Now I read this thread last night and figured someone would put you guys straight.

It didn't happen, so do what I did all of you go and read the rules for flyers, because none of these comments make sense to me!

Probably because you do not read rules?


Presuming "Vector Locked" you mean forced to move 18":

"Vector Locked" is basically "Crew Stunned" for Flyers:

If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer, it must move 18" and cannot turn at all in its next Movement phase.


If the flyer ends up within an inch on an enemy unit just move the flyer/enemy unit to show the flyer is actually above them. If the unit is a titan, then you can make a call on what to do, but essentially there is no issues.

Wrong.

FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS
Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.


With regards to damage and crash and burn, oh boy you guys need to go read the 7th Ed vehicle damage table, you might be surprised!

Good advise! Stick to it!


Wrecked (Zooming Flyers) and Crash and Burn! The unit suffers a number of Strength 10 AP2 hits equal to the number of models embarked. These Wounds are Randomly Allocated. Surviving passengers are placed where the Flyer used to be and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties. The unit then takes a Pinning test.


A vehicle that is reduced to 0 Hull Points is Wrecked. A Wrecked vehicle is destroyed. If the vehicle was a Flyer in Zoom mode, it suffers a Crash and Burn! result (see the Vehicle Damage table).


The problem with Skies of Fury is that you disembark AFTER the Flyer has moved. And when he moves, it gets destroyed and the passengers suffer (as they had no possibility to make their turn yet)


A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6".

So if you decide to use Sky of Furies after the flyer has crashed it is too late as you have to end the movement of the flyer first and handle all consequences of this movment (Crash & Burn).
But there is nothing stopping you from disembarking BEFORE the flyer made its move.

[Haighus]

Yeah, I agree with Charon RAW. RAI, the rule represents them jumping as it is flying, so I would probably house-rule it that way, but RAW, the sequence of events supports everything going down in flames.

[Blood Shadow]

.....A Flyer can end it's move over enemy models?

Can someone point to the rule which says a flyer is wrecked if it can't move the full 18"?

Really struggling to see why this is an issue

[Charistoph]

.....A Flyer can end it's move over enemy models?

Can someone point to the rule which says a flyer is wrecked if it can't move the full 18"?

Really struggling to see why this is an issue

It's in the Flyer rules, Charon quoted them.

FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS
Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

ZOOM
Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover – see opposite. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds, making it very difficult to shoot down, but limits its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18" in its own Movement phase. If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

[Blood Shadow]

And the second sentence is just ignored then?

[Angelofblades]

@Charon.

That is a great argument, though I do have issues with a couple of concepts.

When you say for example, that,
"When it moves it gets destroyed..."

That is just a false statement and clearly not supported by the rules. When you make that statement, you pose a series of problems.

1. When do you place the large blast template that occurs as a result of a crash and burn?
2. Where do you place the template?
3. If the vehicle never finishes it's move, why does it crash and burn?

With that statement, you've strayed past RAW and into your own personal RAI.

A second concept gets created, is the idea that just because a flier cannot end it's move within 1" of an enemy umodel, is equivalent to the flier unable to complete it's move. This too is also false and not supported by the rules.

Taking into accout the permissible rules set, we must take into account the following:

A flier cannot end it's move within 1" of an enemy model. It is simply that, this is not equivalent to a model counting as not being able to complete a move.

Fliers cannot voluntarily move less than 18", but fliers can be force to move less than 18". This rule has been quoted.

Additionally, the way the rule (about being forced to move less than 18") is worded, is in an IF and THEN statement. If forced to move less than 18", (then) it will automatically wreck.

But the poi t to thus is that it clearly defines a series of events. An order to operations.

Vector locked flier intends to move 18". Enemy unit at the 18th inch, so is forced to move 17". The 17th inch is the completion of the fliers move.

Lastly, just because something is guaranteed to happen, in no way shape or form means, that a simultaneous event cannot occur.

At the point when the flier ends its move, the owning player can call for a disembark. And the rule book does give players direction as how to proceed when simultaneous events occur. The player, whose turn it is, gets to choose in what order events unfold. It's called Sequencing.

I believe I've been pretty thorough.

[Charistoph]

And the second sentence is just ignored then?

Which second sentence? There are several.

If you are referring to the option to go 18-36", that was addressed in the Crew Stunned portion where the Flyer may only move 18" in a straight line.

4 - Crew Stunned. Either the vehicle’s crew is knocked about by the attack, or the vehicle’s targeting and steering systems are temporarily scrambled. The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn. If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer, it must move 18" and cannot turn at all in its next Movement phase. If the vehicle is not a Zooming Flyer, it cannot move or pivot until the end of its next turn.
Then add:

FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS
Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

ZOOM
Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover – see opposite. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds, making it very difficult to shoot down, but limits its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18" in its own Movement phase. If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

You get the condition where a Stunned/"Immobilized" Storm Raven ends up being Wrecked even with almost a full hull point count.


@Charon.

That is a great argument, though I do have issues with a couple of concepts.

When you say for example, that,
"When it moves it gets destroyed..."

That is just a false statement and clearly not supported by the rules. When you make that statement, you pose a series of problems.

1. When do you place the large blast template that occurs as a result of a crash and burn?
2. Where do you place the template?

Good questions if it Crashes and Burns during its own Movement Phase. Both are answered quite simply:
1) When it is determined the Flyer is Wrecked.

2) Over the Flyer and then Scatter 2D6"

The more pertinent question is, "Where is the Flyer when this is determined?" That much is not fully addressed in the rules as far as I can tell. Do you return it back to where it started and C&B! there, or do you put it up as far as it can move without stopping the 1"?


3. If the vehicle never finishes it's move, why does it crash and burn?

Already addressed in the rules as quoted earlier in the first paragraph of Zoom and associated with the rules for Wrecked Vehicles, its in the rules.


With that statement, you've strayed past RAW and into your own personal RAI.

A second concept gets created, is the idea that just because a flier cannot end it's move within 1" of an enemy umodel, is equivalent to the flier unable to complete it's move. This too is also false and not supported by the rules.

Taking into accout the permissible rules set, we must take into account the following:

A flier cannot end it's move within 1" of an enemy model. It is simply that, this is not equivalent to a model counting as not being able to complete a move.

Fliers cannot voluntarily move less than 18", but fliers can be force to move less than 18". This rule has been quoted.

If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in the Movement Phase, it is Wrecked, period. This rule has been quoted.


Additionally, the way the rule (about being forced to move less than 18") is worded, is in an IF and THEN statement. If forced to move less than 18", (then) it will automatically wreck.

But the poi t to thus is that it clearly defines a series of events. An order to operations.

Vector locked flier intends to move 18". Enemy unit at the 18th inch, so is forced to move 17". The 17th inch is the completion of the fliers move.

Which, since 17 is less than 18, causes the Zooming Flyer to be automatically Wrecked.


Lastly, just because something is guaranteed to happen, in no way shape or form means, that a simultaneous event cannot occur.

At the point when the flier ends its move, the owning player can call for a disembark. And the rule book does give players direction as how to proceed when simultaneous events occur. The player, whose turn it is, gets to choose in what order events unfold. It's called Sequencing.

I believe I've been pretty thorough.

Not thorough enough. You've missed some spots, I've pointed out above. Also, the events are not simultaneous. The Wrecked clause for insufficient Movement is Immediately, while the Skies of Fury Disembarking can be done at any point of the Movement Phase after the the Storm Raven has completed its move.

Flyers which can Hover must declare their movement mode before any declarations of Embarking or Disembarking.

Movement of different units are not handled at the same time. Each unit must complete their movement separately, and the Embarked and Transports are different units.

Skies of Fury can only be initiated after the Storm Raven moved, as you must "Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn...". No movement that turn, no point to nominate.

As noted above, Wrecked results for moving less than 18" are immediate, i.e. before the movement of the unit ends.

Therefore, one cannot use Skies of Fury to avoid a Storm Raven's C&B! result. Night Scythe passengers are a little more fortunate.

[Charon]

.....A Flyer can end it's move over enemy models?

Can someone point to the rule which says a flyer is wrecked if it can't move the full 18"?

Really struggling to see why this is an issue

I even quoted them for you. Here we go again:


FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS
Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

and


If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.






That is a great argument, though I do have issues with a couple of concepts.

When you say for example, that,
"When it moves it gets destroyed..."

That is just a false statement and clearly not supported by the rules. When you make that statement, you pose a series of problems.

1. When do you place the large blast template that occurs as a result of a crash and burn?
2. Where do you place the template?
3. If the vehicle never finishes it's move, why does it crash and burn?

With that statement, you've strayed past RAW and into your own personal RAI.

Pretty simple actually. Because the sequence is clear:

You are forced to move 18" -> You try and find out that 18" would drag you over an enemy unit -> you have to keep at least 1" distance -> you can only move 15" and have to stop your movment here -> you have moved less than 18" so you are wrecked -> wrecked translates in crash & burn -> you place the large place in the center of your current position (this is where you were wrecked!) -> you scatter the blast and continue to roll damage on targets as well as on your own passengers according to crash & burn. Here ends the movement of the flyer and the next unit may move.

There is no invalidation and no interpretation, so in short:

1. It is placed as soon as the Flyer becomes wrecked.
2. At the center of the flyer at the spot where it got wrecked (in your example 1" in front of the enemy unit)
3. It does finish the move (it is forced to do so) 1" in front of the enemy unit. This is why it got wrecked in the first place.