Did the Summer of Sigmar kill interest in 40k?

[Defenestratus]

... at least from a website/forum's perspective?

I have to say that it might just be me, but it seems that the BoLS forums for 40k have slowed down considerably over the last couple months. I just went away for a week long vacation outside of any internet connectivity, came back and saw that there were barely more than a dozen new posts on the rumors forum which is usually the hotbed of activity.

Thinking back, I get the gut feeling that this slump started during the Summer of Sigmar. Indeed traffic stats seemed to indicate that the sigmar focus of GW killed hobby website traffic but has it recovered?

Is it due to something other than Sigmar? I know that on the IRC channel that I've been on for more than 20 years now on efnet called #Warhammer, its been 24/7 Infinity talk. In fact, the old timers of the channel have started an *Infinity* podcast and pretty much abandoned their 40k-centric blog.

Am I just imagining things?

[Kirsten]

it has been slow lately, but I don't think that is down to Sigmar, I think there was a spike early in the year with Ad Mech, Harlequins etc. then less exciting new stuff. we had Betrayal at Calth, which is amazing, but had already been talked to death long before it actually launched. I was blown away by the new tau stuff, but given that most stuff stayed the same, and some of the new releases were replacement kits, again, not that much to talk about.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Locally at our store it went very quiet. I think the disappointment around AoS there was so intense and sucked so much that it formed a vacuum that everything else struggled to fill. That, and an absolute horde of new games are pouring out these days, with Halo Fleet Battles, Guild Ball, Malifaux, Frostgrave, Attack Wing, X Wing, Armada, WarmaHordes, Flames of War, Dropzone Commander, Batman there's just so much leaving communities feeling a bit fragmented unless you buy into several, different games.

[Erik Setzer]

Locally it's a similar situation to what CoffeeGrunt's describing. It's really weird, too. At the beginning of the year people were hyped on both games. New 40K armies popping up, people buying new armies for WFB or expanding them, snatching up all the End Times releases (even with people doing preorders)... but then it just went kind of dead. There are still some people playing, but there are weekends that practically no one is in the GW store. The store's now in danger of being shut down. At the FLGS's, people are checking out new games like Kings of War and Frostgrave, lots of X-Wing being played, and Armada is picking up now that it has more variety available. There's also some folks checking out Infinity, and I think Bolt Action and Beyond the Gates of Antares would get traction if some brave souls volunteered to be the first to pick up armies (stores won't carry anything that's not a "sure thing," especially with so much of their budgets being taken up with GW stock that isn't moving suddenly).

Perhaps a bit of 40K love will pick it back up, but that presents a problem in that they really need to do more work on AoS to get people to come to it and stick around. When they decided to completely throw out their prior game and make an entirely new system, they should have known they couldn't just rely on their brand name to make sales. So either they build up AoS at the expense of 40K, or try to keep 40K players interested but risk not being able to get AoS to take off (which puts it at risk against competitors popping up). Maybe if they expanded their team... but that would take spending money, and the current plan is to cut spending as much as possible to remain profitable.

That's getting a bit off topic...

Some folks might be experiencing plenty of 40K play, just without posts on the forums. Hard to really tell for certain if the game is really experiencing a worldwide cooling period or not.

[Cactus]

Locally for us, 40k is still king. We've sold next to nothing in Sigmar but 40k play is going strong. We haven't seen any uptick in other games though.

[Kirsten]

none of that relates to the original point about the forum though :p

[CoffeeGrunt]

Lack of 40K being played in local stores would translate into lack of discussion about it on forums, so it kinda does. :P

[Defenestratus]

none of that relates to the original point about the forum though :p

I don't think that there's a statistical correlation that could ever be made between game participation and forum traffic - it just seems so damn quiet around here lately and I can't help but notice that it went downwards around when AoS hit the shelf. Correlation != Causality but I can't help but draw the conclusion in my mind.

As for Heresy, I saw that a lot of boxed sets were sold, but nobody actually talking about playing the game (either the board game or the FW game) with those minis. Of course, people could be quiet due to just being in the basement painting up their heresy models :P

[Mr Mystery]

Sadly, BoLS hit a rocky patch in terms of toxic posters.

Few enough in number, but vocal as ever.

Take Age of Sigmar. There's barely a thread on BoLS about that game that hasnt had the usual suspects, who apparently didn't even play 8th Ed Warhammer trolling along. Ignoring them is easy enough for me - but perhaps not so for others. Instead, I'm also part of a busy Facebook group about AoS. No Trolls. Nobody suggesting those who enjoy the game are mentally deficient. Just fans of the game chatting about the game they enjoy.

Contrast and compare the two.

Now, I get my 40k fix here on BoLS, so I've not yet signed up to any 40k Facebook groups, so I don't have enough info to say if it's the same for both systems. But I am part of two Heresy groups (one global, one very local) and again, there's far more activity on those than there is here on BoLS.

But given how busy the AoS group is (over 2,000 members, lots of activity, and absolutely zero sad little muppets ) it's sadly looking like Forums may have had their day.

[Charon]

As for Heresy, I saw that a lot of boxed sets were sold, but nobody actually talking about playing the game (either the board game or the FW game) with those minis.

Used and painted them for my 40k Wordbearers. Haven't even unpacked the rest. And I guess I did not miss a lot.

AoS took a lot of momentum from the chaingun 40k releases. So people that were excited to get a new and updated codex (CSM, Daemons, IG, Nids, Orks, DE, BA,..) are now just playing the waiting game and some just lost interest because "old vs new" games tend to be rather one-sided.
Can't comment too much about AOS as the section is dominated by 2 user I blocked and these guys seem to be the only ones posting there.
AoS could have been a great filler with low risk and keep the 40k Chaos faction excited if they had chosen to multipurpose at least a few of their units (Khorne Berzerkers on Juggernauts would have been obvious, same like the new Sorcerer on disc) but as they are not and rumors are "no Tzeentch Daemonkin" and "no Codex for 2016" the excitement has become frustration.

And I basically fully expect the 2 to head over here and tell everyone how it is the players fault and call out everyone who does not like AoS or does not think it was a resounding success.

[Erik Setzer]

But given how busy the AoS group is (over 2,000 members, lots of activity, and absolutely zero sad little muppets ) it's sadly looking like Forums may have had their day.

There's probably quite a few "sad little muppets," they're just "sad little muppets" who happen to like AoS rather than dislike it, so no need for them to comment negatively about it.

That said, forums are likely done for soon anyway, just like how forums killed newsgroups and mailing lists. People sign into Facebook all the time, and having your discussion forums right there is very convenient, much more so than having to pull up multiple websites and log into them individually.

[Mr Mystery]

You know perfectly well what I mean, and indeed who I mean with the 'sad little muppets'

It's fine to have tried and not enjoyed. That is the sum of human experience.

It's those who decided they didn't like it before we even had firm rumours. Them. They really need to get out more.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I agree with Kirsten, I foumd the earlier half of the year more exciting myself. Harlequins and Admech were a pretty big deal. I personally wasn't as excited with updates to the existing armies, even the ones I collect or have bought stuff from as I thought whole new factions made a bigger impact generally.

[Bigred]

What we've heard from every retailer out there was a strong robust year up until AoS hit on July 4th weekend - followed by the worst 12-week summer for GW sales they had ever seen. (One retailers said is was the worst summer of GW sales in 17 years!), followed by a leveling off and slow regrowth with the arrival of Tau. Still, not back up up to the pre AoS levels.

Several retailers told us they would never treat GW the same after that summer and are strongly diversifying product lines away from them.

I would assume that many people lost interest in GW over the summer and are slowly percolating back. Also note that Tau was never that much of a favorite army and Heresy while a wet dream for veterans is still kind of a niche within a niche for new players. If GW can kickoff 2016 with some strong popular armies getting good releases, I would expect to see interest and traffic pick up again. But Harlequins and Ad-Mech is a hard act to follow.

On a forum-only related topic, by the end of the Summer of Sigmar some folks were getting out of control on both the frontpage and Lounge and we had a change of policy. The moderators did a big purge and booted out a lot of malcontents who were only here to stir up trouble, and pick on other posters. They generated a lot of comments - but none of it was what we were looking for in our community. Most of the banned users have moved over to other forums at this point (I'll let you guess which ones).

I'm certain GW has felt the pain of AoS behind the scenes, regardless of the public face they are putting out. Not one retailer talked about it in positive terms with us.

[son_of_volmer]

It's easy to point the finger at AoS and say 'He did it', but it seems a little bit of an oversimplification. It could be caused by something much bigger than the game. Economy, world events, politics, climate even!

I feel, that around AoS, 40k psychosis hit everyone hard. There was something every week. First rumours, then images, discussion, then GW releases it and then we were looking for the next thing. It was a lot for everyone to handle. Websites (not this one of course) started having tons articles about nothing. Start reading the article realize it was just the same sentence repeated a few times in different ways. Even podcasts showed a change. Forge the Narrative had a definite shift and then fracture. Every week folded a new rule, formation, or trick into the game and it took effort to keep up. I have this unsettling feeling that the pace of 40k now, invalidates units so fast, the stuff I paint today, will be gathering dust next month.

[Cutter]

... at least from a website/forum's perspective?

I have to say that it might just be me, but it seems that the BoLS forums for 40k have slowed down considerably over the last couple months. I just went away for a week long vacation outside of any internet connectivity, came back and saw that there were barely more than a dozen new posts on the rumors forum which is usually the hotbed of activity.

Thinking back, I get the gut feeling that this slump started during the Summer of Sigmar. Indeed traffic stats seemed to indicate that the sigmar focus of GW killed hobby website traffic but has it recovered?

Is it due to something other than Sigmar? I know that on the IRC channel that I've been on for more than 20 years now on efnet called #Warhammer, its been 24/7 Infinity talk. In fact, the old timers of the channel have started an *Infinity* podcast and pretty much abandoned their 40k-centric blog.

Am I just imagining things?

I wouldn't say that it killed off interest in 40k as much as it killed off interest in Age of Sigmar. There wasn't much to talk about on the 40k front because talk tends to revolve around the new. No new, no talk.

As has been the norm of late most traffic seems to be generated in the oubliette.

[Cutter]

Sadly, BoLS hit a rocky patch in terms of toxic posters.

That's true, there are some terrible terrible see you next Tuesdays on the BoLS.


Few enough in number, but vocal as ever.

What's that old saying, it only takes one bad genestealer to spoil the hiveworld?


Take Age of Sigmar.

Please.


There's barely a thread on BoLS about that game that hasnt had the usual suspects, who apparently didn't even play 8th Ed Warhammer trolling along. Ignoring them is easy enough for me - but perhaps not so for others. Instead, I'm also part of a busy Facebook group about AoS. No Trolls. Nobody suggesting those who enjoy the game are mentally deficient. Just fans of the game chatting about the game they enjoy.

FBFTW.


Contrast and compare the two.

Now, I get my 40k fix here on BoLS, so I've not yet signed up to any 40k Facebook groups, so I don't have enough info to say if it's the same for both systems. But I am part of two Heresy groups (one global, one very local) and again, there's far more activity on those than there is here on BoLS.

But given how busy the AoS group is (over 2,000 members, lots of activity, and absolutely zero sad little muppets ) it's sadly looking like Forums may have had their day.

The writing's on the BoLS.

[benn grimm]

Interesting correlation and nice to hear some 'behind the scenes' info.

I think they certainly burned a lot of good will from the community with the summer of sigmar and I think a lot of people have experienced a general feeling of burn-out when it comes to warhammer, whichever flavour. I think the usual old complaints (cost, rules, communication) haven't really been addressed, if anything they've been kind of ramped up this year. Then there was that whole thing about what gw thinks of its customers (and shareholders). They've had a lot of negative PR recently, I hope they can resolve it going forward, but in the mean time it filters down and I would imagine is slightly off putting to new customers/investors.

[grimmas]

Just to second Msytery ( which he may or not thank me for). I'm a member of the same AoS Facebook group and the traffic there is very good. To be honest it became worthless posting AoS stuff on here it just became an excuse for the same people to tell you they didn't like it. Though to be honest WFB posts were pretty low before we went almost 2 months between posts on the Background section at one point and it would have been longer if I wasn't commenting on my own thread.

I am a member of a good 40K FB page and there's a lot of posts on that, to be honest FB just makes a better platform for casual hobby viewing, forums like this are better for more lengthy discussion but most of us just don't have the time.

Of course if we are to go by postings on here then I'd suggest that Malifaux and Mantic are the ones really in trouble.

Then again it may be that it's simply Christmas so eveyone has got stuff on, and I don't know may be some of you are a little distracted by something else at the moment. I can't imagine what that might be 😜.

All said unlike the hear say and propaganda we get on the other companies GW will be releasing their first half figures so we'll know how it's all gone.

[AnEnemy]

Pretty sure AoS killed my local GW. It was a strong store up until last summer. Now it's a ghost town and its set to shut its doors in April.

Kind of fishy that the former manager was fired just before the AoS push wrapped up.

None of that has anything to do with forums of course.

[Cutter]

Of course if we are to go by postings on here then I'd suggest that Malifaux and Mantic are the ones really in trouble.

Indeed, never paid much attention to Malifaux, I've never played it, but I am keen on KoW as a quick and dirty Whamster cohort.

I assume it's fans don't bother with forums like this because, unlike GW's fans, they have a dedicated forum on Mantic's own website as well has facebookery.


All said unlike the hear say and propaganda we get on the other companies GW will be releasing their first half figures so we'll know how it's all gone.

Much anticipated.

[Caitsidhe]

They have already started to lower expectations... again. According to the recent releases, they claim things are on track of company expectations but continue to blame currency exchange for a reduction in sales. :D In short, you can expect something about the same as last time, i.e. a drop of 3-5% in sales, excuses which blame everything except the company's current direction, and additional cuts (dying by inches) to remain in the black.

[Cutter]

They have already started to lower expectations... again. According to the recent releases, they claim things are on track of company expectations but continue to blame currency exchange for a reduction in sales. :D In short, you can expect something about the same as last time, i.e. a drop of 3-5% in sales, excuses which blame everything except the company's current direction, and additional cuts (dying by inches) to remain in the black.

What's the forum for this lowering of expectations?

[Caitsidhe]

What's the forum for this lowering of expectations?

http://www.ifamagazine.com/company-news/games-workshop-first-half-trading-in-line-with-expectations-327149

They don't lower expectations for us (the consumer). They don't care what we think. They lower expectations for stockholders via press releases.

[grimmas]

It's on their investor relations website accessed from the main site. Same thing as last year sales went up most places but a strong pound cancels that out. From a consumer point meaningless really but investors might be interested. Handy for us Brits going on holiday though.

[Caitsidhe]

More to the point... for the last year... 'winter was coming' and now 'WINTER IS HERE.' :D By all accounts the best thing that could happen to Games Workshop would have been for the new Star Wars movie to flop. It isn't going to flop. It is going to be huge. The target audience (at least the one Games Workshop claims buys their product) is going to be utterly fixated on Star Wars products for the immediate future. Every dollar spent on that type of fandom takes away from the dollars available elsewhere. The 3-5% drop you will see this report is nothing next to the one which will follow that will reflect the impact of the opening of the film. Let alone the fact that there is going to be one film a year for the next ten years. Winter has come.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm certain GW has felt the pain of AoS behind the scenes, regardless of the public face they are putting out. Not one retailer talked about it in positive terms with us.

It's really the biggest blunder I can remember seeing from a gaming company, even more than the much-maligned D&D 4th Edition. It's not even that AoS is a terrible game (oh, it needs some serious work, to be sure). Games Workshop took a 30-year-old game and a setting that is still popular enough to have a ton of licensed products out there and still coming, and blew them up, to replace them with an idea that, from the rules to the background, were clearly only half-formed. But to add on top of that, they didn't spot the real issues, that they were pricing the game way out of hand. So now we get Sigmarines at $50 for five (at best), characters that are $33-$40 for guys on foot, and so many >$100 models and those $100-for-three Chaos Knights (ignoring the whole deal that Blood Knights never sold at $100 for five, so why the heck would they think this works?). Sure, there's some beautiful models. But the pricing is aimed at such a tiny niche it's ridiculous. The whole strategy seems aimed to alienate their existing base with the goal of trying to attract a new group of customers that just don't exist. The gambit backfired spectacularly, but they would have realized it would if they'd been paying attention.

At this point, the only hope is that they fire the replacement CEO and bring in someone who *is* willing to do price reductions. The current line needs to be repriced for what the market will accept, and then they also need to look at the game. Want to keep AoS going? Cool. Take what exists, and rewrite it to include points or something of that sort, to have balance. Or, heck, here's a concept: Bring WFB back with a 9th edition, run it alongside AoS, find an excuse for it in the background (I can think of many), and pack models with round and square bases. It doesn't cost that much extra, and allows you to hit two different markets. (Heck, if they had the square bases still, they could be making money off of people buying the models to use with Kings of War.)

I want to believe they'll do better... but I think the fantasy side of things might be a goner soon. It could explain why they've been doing mostly Chaos releases, because even the Warriors and such can be converted over to 40K with a "Daemon Worlds" codex and then the production costs aren't lost. (Heck, there are probably a bunch of people who would pounce all over that.)

[Cutter]

http://www.ifamagazine.com/company-news/games-workshop-first-half-trading-in-line-with-expectations-327149

They don't lower expectations for us (the consumer). They don't care what we think. They lower expectations for stockholders via press releases.

Cheers, I guess I'll just wait for Jan 12, it'll be like a slightly late birthday present I guess. The noise it generates is always entertaining.

- - - Updated - - -


More to the point... for the last year... 'winter was coming' and now 'WINTER IS HERE.' :D By all accounts the best thing that could happen to Games Workshop would have been for the new Star Wars movie to flop. It isn't going to flop. It is going to be huge. The target audience (at least the one Games Workshop claims buys their product) is going to be utterly fixated on Star Wars products for the immediate future. Every dollar spent on that type of fandom takes away from the dollars available elsewhere. The 3-5% drop you will see this report is nothing next to the one which will follow that will reflect the impact of the opening of the film. Let alone the fact that there is going to be one film a year for the next ten years. Winter has come.

So you think the sixth months to 29th Nov are going to be relatively good compared to the next 6 months? You could be right, it's not like SW is going to be doing them any favours.

- - - Updated - - -


(Heck, if they had the square bases still, they could be making money off of people buying the models to use with Kings of War.)

Especially since Uncharted Empires seems to provide army lists (with points! GASP!) for all of the Whamster armies not catered for in KoW 2nd Edition.

[Erik Setzer]

Especially since Uncharted Empires seems to provide army lists (with points! GASP!) for all of the Whamster armies not catered for in KoW 2nd Edition.

Yep. They did that quite on purpose. Since they're not even selling AoS rules, does it really matter if people buy Warhammer models to play KoW or anything else? They're still making the money on the model sales.

[Cutter]

Yep. They did that quite on purpose. Since they're not even selling AoS rules, does it really matter if people buy Warhammer models to play KoW or anything else? They're still making the money on the model sales.

Indeed. As a company focused on models rather than games, they do seem strangely reluctant to cater for those (crazy, crazy) people that might want to use their miniatures to play other games. My compact but bijou collection of fantasy miniatures covers several companies, spanning as it does over 30 years, and one of the joys of KoW for me is that I can use pretty much all of them some where or other.

It seems perverse that the GW miniatures among that collection feel more welcome and at home among the forces of Mantica than in the Realmgate Wars.

[grimmas]

I think Erik has a point. To be honest I was thinking recently that may be GW should be making everyone else's plastic miniatures it'd be better than the crap that gets made in China. It'd be an interesting change of direction going more and more down the pure manufacturing root. I have had a sneaking suspicion that the Perry's may have used their production facilities in the past for their stuff(no evidence just being suspicious). Of course I don't think it'd make anything cheaper but we'd all get better quality plastics.

[Defenestratus]

I'm currently kicking myself for not narrowing down the topic on this thread. I don't want it to spiral into yet another "AoS and GW suck!!!" because as much as I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint, I'm also sick of reading about it.

Basically I wanted to know if that 12-week vacation from the rapid fire 40k releases "kill the mood" for you? I can't really tell if it did for me or not because I had a rather significant life event that directly impacted my 40k participation and haven't recovered since - but it seems to me that even from my friends that DIDN'T go through what I did have let off of the "enthusiasm pedal".

[grimmas]

Sorry dude.

I actually like a break now and again it keeps things fresh. I bought AoS and enjoyed the change and when Battle for Calth came out I was keen for that. It all reminds me of when Specialist games were released we'd all play them for 3-6months constantly and then go back to 40K feeling refreshed. I know these days one has to be "Team whatever" but it's not really a lifestyle choice I find I taking time off to play other stuff isn't a bad thing for my hobby rather it keeps it fresher. Let's face it as has been mentioned there were ALOT of 40K releases at the start of the year so the summer of Sigmar came as a welcome change for me.

[Erik Setzer]

It's hard for me to say if it would have affected my game playing much. I've been trying to be a good friend to someone, and he doesn't want to play GW games, so I haven't been doing that either. But when I run into people elsewhere, they're talking about just dropping 40K, too, and more people getting into other games, so I might just drift into them.

Then again, I did buy two sets of Betrayal at Calth. (Sadly, only got a handful of models assembled so far. But hey, it's practically an army, and I have so many other projects I want to work on, too.)

[Captain Bubonicus]

I'm currently kicking myself for not narrowing down the topic on this thread. I don't want it to spiral into yet another "AoS and GW suck!!!" because as much as I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint, I'm also sick of reading about it.

Basically I wanted to know if that 12-week vacation from the rapid fire 40k releases "kill the mood" for you? I can't really tell if it did for me or not because I had a rather significant life event that directly impacted my 40k participation and haven't recovered since - but it seems to me that even from my friends that DIDN'T go through what I did have let off of the "enthusiasm pedal".

My mood has indeed been killed, but it wasn't the ebb in releases that did it. I won't rant about AoS and WHFB here - but that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I've begrudgingly moved on and found an "oldhammer" group on Facebook that proudly shows off their old miniatures from when I last really, truly enjoyed the hobby...those ugly but characterful Rogue-Trader and 2nd Edition miniatures that look shoddy compared to the modern stuff but to me represent the "glory days" of 40k. So I guess now I'm just a hobby hermit, staring into his own navel and wistfully yearning for the old days of deodorant stick tanks and "Space Slann."

[Caitsidhe]

I'm currently kicking myself for not narrowing down the topic on this thread. I don't want it to spiral into yet another "AoS and GW suck!!!" because as much as I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint, I'm also sick of reading about it.

Basically I wanted to know if that 12-week vacation from the rapid fire 40k releases "kill the mood" for you? I can't really tell if it did for me or not because I had a rather significant life event that directly impacted my 40k participation and haven't recovered since - but it seems to me that even from my friends that DIDN'T go through what I did have let off of the "enthusiasm pedal".


You are in Portland? Sheesh. I'm in Bangor. I didn't notice any particular negative effect in the break in releases for 40K, but then again... I think it is tournaments that drive interest. People who just play at their own houses among friends aren't really impacted by a lull in releases unless it is much longer. The biggest effect I see on 40K is whether or not there are tournaments or pick up games to be had.

[artisturn]

There is only one game store in Santa Fe,NM and it going strong,but it is Magic and then 40k that keeps the doors open.

Fantasy has been a non entity since the store opened and what small group we had imploded with The Old World, most of the group has switched over to Bolt Action.

[Caitsidhe]

There is only one game store in Santa Fe,NM and it going strong,but it is Magic and then 40k that keeps the doors open.

Fantasy has been a non entity since the store opened and what small group we had imploded with The Old World, most of the group has switched over to Bolt Action.

Right prior to my move from Texas (and before AOS) that was the case there too. Bolt Action was replacing 40K with all the old guard.

[Tomgar]

I've personally been starting to drift away from 40k but it's nothing to do with AoS (much as I hate it) or a break in 40k releases. It's kind of the opposite, in fact. I feel they've been releasing too much and it's magnifying their historic issues with balance and power creep. I'm just not having fun now because my main opponents play armies like AdMech or Eldar that just blast me and everyone else with an older army off the table in two turns. I feel that GW have no idea how to handle the game any more so they're basically chucking increasingly broken formations and giant centrepiece models at the problem, hoping it'll go away.

I'm also feeling just a general lack of care. See the debacle with the FAQs, taking months and months to release FAQs that, in many cases, are identical to their old versions and very rarely actually answer the questions we've been asking. Gee, thanks. See also the new Codexes (Dark Angels were especially bad for this) which, instead of containing exquisite artwork and in-depth fluff, have this awful cartoony art and replace much of the fluff with a short bit of writing about each individual unit entry. Because I really care how heroic and grim generic Space Marine no.3854 is.

This has just made me less and less interested in talking about 40k. Why talk about a game that I haven't found fun since early 6th edition? If it didn't give me an excuse to meet my buddies and if I hadn't invested so much money in it, I'd probably just give my models to the charity shop and stick to video games.

Basically I, personally, have no real answer to your question. Just a nagging feeling that 40k is somehow... Worse. Just generally worse than it was a while ago. And that's what's sapped my interest in posting on forums.

[40kGamer]

The rapid fire codex rewrites caused me to hit the pause button hard with 40k. Plus there are so many games/systems/products out now that the local sci-fi fantasy community is as fragmented as the historical one tends to be. At the moment I'm enjoying putting some GW WFB figs on the table for Frostgrave... Quite a fun little beer and pretzel, Mordheim-like game.

[Cutter]

I'm currently kicking myself for not narrowing down the topic on this thread. I don't want it to spiral into yet another "AoS and GW suck!!!" because as much as I'm sympathetic to that viewpoint, I'm also sick of reading about it.

Basically I wanted to know if that 12-week vacation from the rapid fire 40k releases "kill the mood" for you? I can't really tell if it did for me or not because I had a rather significant life event that directly impacted my 40k participation and haven't recovered since - but it seems to me that even from my friends that DIDN'T go through what I did have let off of the "enthusiasm pedal".

For me? No. My 40k is pretty firmly rooted in the past of the company as it is, so though I'm interested in release schedules and current shenanigans my 40kness does not rely on it. Just finished off my Macragge and Black Reach smurfs, deciding whether to finally get round to the Dark Vengeance Dangles or that 2nd edition Ork Battlewagon I bought off ebay last year.

- - - Updated - - -


My mood has indeed been killed, but it wasn't the ebb in releases that did it. I won't rant about AoS and WHFB here - but that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I've begrudgingly moved on and found an "oldhammer" group on Facebook that proudly shows off their old miniatures from when I last really, truly enjoyed the hobby...those ugly but characterful Rogue-Trader and 2nd Edition miniatures that look shoddy compared to the modern stuff but to me represent the "glory days" of 40k. So I guess now I'm just a hobby hermit, staring into his own navel and wistfully yearning for the old days of deodorant stick tanks and "Space Slann."

Brother!

[Andrew Thomas]

I'm sliding from mere ambivalence to outright defection these days, and none of that is a result of this Summer of Sigmar. AoS was a boon to me, because I could finally play Fantasy in a way that I'm satisfied (the lack of rigid organization was the best thing that ever happened to my plans to build a Clan Skryre list, and KoW's Ratmen list did nothing to change that, and if I was still interested, a Strigoi list might still be in my future). Damocles had fun elements in both books, especially the new AM and White Scars stuff, too. But what has driven me away, towards Warzone, is price. But for Prodos' less than reliable distribution, I'd have 2 complete armies by now, while for the same money, I'd have about a third of 1 40k list. The fluff is also decent, and the rules aren't plagued with rhetorical flourishes (read: corner cases) either.

In summary: if the SoS did anything to kill 40k, it demonstrated a tacit contempt for the customer.

[Popsical]

The SoS didnt kill 40k for me at all. It killed WFB for me tho.
My small group are pretty addicted to keeping up to date at all costs with 40/30k and WFB. Once WFB died and AoS came along, interest it seems died in my group because WFB was no longer going to evolve constantly and keep them ploughing cash into it.
30k gained all the money from this death of WFB from all three of my gaming friends as it is the current GW cash cow and rapidly evolving.
40k died during 6th ed for my group due to many factors:
1) 30k becoming mainstream
2) formations
3) the release of 7th ed so quickly after 6th whilst not really solving any of the problems of 6th
4) codexs being made redundant seemingly a year or two after release
5) total confusion regarding army composition and rules due to the whole toy box current style of 40k

30k has given my friends a game with definition and growth to keep them spending cash in bucket loads but with a direction in mind.
40k has died because they arent engaged by the whole "whatever" attitude GW have pushed in regards to building and buying your army.

Personally i cant wait for 8th ed, because ive not liked the rules since 4th ed at all. I still buy the odd model to paint, but ive found other games to invest my time and limited money in. The way i see it, GW have taken a 25+ year old skirmish game and tried to turn it into Epic, without changing the core of the system. For me this hasnt worked at all. The addition of super powerful units has meant the lesser units have had to have more extra rules to keep them vaguely viable, a sort of plaster or patch to keep them selling. More and more units have been given inv saves and feel no pain and other bandage rules because without them they just dont last on the tabletop. Much like earlier editions where fearless became so popular that morale became a non-existent feature in 40k, units are now being given a variety of rules to stop them snuffing it because of the sheer number of weapons that place an old LP record on the table to see how many models are removed.

[Cutter]

The SoS didnt kill 40k for me at all. It killed WFB for me tho.
My small group are pretty addicted to keeping up to date at all costs with 40/30k and WFB. Once WFB died and AoS came along, interest it seems died in my group because WFB was no longer going to evolve constantly and keep them ploughing cash into it.
30k gained all the money from this death of WFB from all three of my gaming friends as it is the current GW cash cow and rapidly evolving.
40k died during 6th ed for my group due to many factors:
1) 30k becoming mainstream
2) formations
3) the release of 7th ed so quickly after 6th whilst not really solving any of the problems of 6th
4) codexs being made redundant seemingly a year or two after release
5) total confusion regarding army composition and rules due to the whole toy box current style of 40k

30k has given my friends a game with definition and growth to keep them spending cash in bucket loads but with a direction in mind.
40k has died because they arent engaged by the whole "whatever" attitude GW have pushed in regards to building and buying your army.

Personally i cant wait for 8th ed, because ive not liked the rules since 4th ed at all. I still buy the odd model to paint, but ive found other games to invest my time and limited money in. The way i see it, GW have taken a 25+ year old skirmish game and tried to turn it into Epic, without changing the core of the system. For me this hasnt worked at all. The addition of super powerful units has meant the lesser units have had to have more extra rules to keep them vaguely viable, a sort of plaster or patch to keep them selling. More and more units have been given inv saves and feel no pain and other bandage rules because without them they just dont last on the tabletop. Much like earlier editions where fearless became so popular that morale became a non-existent feature in 40k, units are now being given a variety of rules to stop them snuffing it because of the sheer number of weapons that place an old LP record on the table to see how many models are removed.

So do you think 30k will kill 40k?

[Erik Setzer]

replace much of the fluff with a short bit of writing about each individual unit entry.

Well, the earliest codices *did* have that format (ditto army books for WFB), but it was also due to the format, where they would describe the unit and have the more in-depth rules for the unit in a section, and leave the army list cleaner.

The Ork codex looked like they were going to try to find a way to put all of that info on one page for each unit (which would shorten the fluff for a unit, but that's not terrible unless it's a special character or very unique unit... they described the characters elsewhere in that book, so it worked). Newer releases have, in many cases, gone back to having a page for the unit fluff, plus the unit entry's fluff, which I think isn't so much replacing fluff as just them not having the time to come up with new filler and just filling the pages with the prior unit fluff and more artwork.

A good balance would be nice, but it's not really a new issue that's crept up. And, though I still feel they're charging way too much for the books, at least it's not as bad as when they stripped them down to almost no fluff for 3rd edition. (Actually, I don't know... releasing pure game books at a cheap price, with fluff books optional for people who want those, would probably be a good marketing step, and they might have been onto something in 3rd edition, if they'd just put the fluff *somewhere* rather than leaving it MIA.)

- - - Updated - - -


(the lack of rigid organization was the best thing that ever happened to my plans to build a Clan Skryre list,

I remember in 6th edition, maybe early 7th(?), my dad put together a "Clan Skryre" army. Multiple units of Clanrats with Ratling Guns, multiple Warlock Engineers, artillery, some Jezzails... just stood there and tore into armies until they got close, then let the Clanrats bog them down while the guns kept firing into combat. Amusing army to play (and when I repair the display board, will look neat on a shelf), but it could feel OP at times, which is probably why they ditched it. (I used a modified version with Grey Seers and stuff to get over 20 casting dice at 3000 points to play a guy's "unbeatable" Daemon army to help him prove it was beatable... he still won, but that's because my dice find it amusing to try out every possible bad result with Skaven.)

Bit of a detour there, sorry, but I have fond memories of playing Skaven, even when I lost terribly.:D

[Popsical]

So do you think 30k will kill 40k?

No, i think the two will become less separate over time and maybe even merge in the distant future.

[Cutter]

No, i think the two will become less separate over time and maybe even merge in the distant future.

35k or 70k?

[Popsical]

35k or 70k?

Nah. Warhammer Age of Epraaah!
Where can they go with 8th ed anyways?
The return of the primarchs is guaranteed eventually in 40k so it will become more alike to 30k anyway.

[daboarder]

I think when GW was releasing a constant rush of products people were caught up in the release pace then AOS dropped, the focus swung off 40k and people started playing other games while they waited.
Its also interesting to note that the fan fair about the return of 40k products hasnt been all that massive, you didnt here much in the community about betrayal at calth at all really.
Wonder if this means people have gotten tired of the release pace and product quality now that they have had a chance to breathe and look at other companies.

- - - Updated - - -


The SoS didnt kill 40k for me at all. It killed WFB for me tho.
My small group are pretty addicted to keeping up to date at all costs with 40/30k and WFB. Once WFB died and AoS came along, interest it seems died in my group because WFB was no longer going to evolve constantly and keep them ploughing cash into it.
30k gained all the money from this death of WFB from all three of my gaming friends as it is the current GW cash cow and rapidly evolving.
40k died during 6th ed for my group due to many factors:
1) 30k becoming mainstream
2) formations
3) the release of 7th ed so quickly after 6th whilst not really solving any of the problems of 6th
4) codexs being made redundant seemingly a year or two after release
5) total confusion regarding army composition and rules due to the whole toy box current style of 40k

30k has given my friends a game with definition and growth to keep them spending cash in bucket loads but with a direction in mind.
40k has died because they arent engaged by the whole "whatever" attitude GW have pushed in regards to building and buying your army.

Personally i cant wait for 8th ed, because ive not liked the rules since 4th ed at all. I still buy the odd model to paint, but ive found other games to invest my time and limited money in. The way i see it, GW have taken a 25+ year old skirmish game and tried to turn it into Epic, without changing the core of the system. For me this hasnt worked at all. The addition of super powerful units has meant the lesser units have had to have more extra rules to keep them vaguely viable, a sort of plaster or patch to keep them selling. More and more units have been given inv saves and feel no pain and other bandage rules because without them they just dont last on the tabletop. Much like earlier editions where fearless became so popular that morale became a non-existent feature in 40k, units are now being given a variety of rules to stop them snuffing it because of the sheer number of weapons that place an old LP record on the table to see how many models are removed.

pretty much this in its entirety

- - - Updated - - -


My mood has indeed been killed, but it wasn't the ebb in releases that did it. I won't rant about AoS and WHFB here - but that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I've begrudgingly moved on and found an "oldhammer" group on Facebook that proudly shows off their old miniatures from when I last really, truly enjoyed the hobby...those ugly but characterful Rogue-Trader and 2nd Edition miniatures that look shoddy compared to the modern stuff but to me represent the "glory days" of 40k. So I guess now I'm just a hobby hermit, staring into his own navel and wistfully yearning for the old days of deodorant stick tanks and "Space Slann."

nice to here you found a group keen on older games. they seem to be cropping up a little around my area too, going to see if I can find some people wanting to play 4th ed 40k using 3rd ed/4th ed codexes.

[Alaric]

The SoS didnt kill 40k for me at all. It killed WFB for me tho.
My small group are pretty addicted to keeping up to date at all costs with 40/30k and WFB. Once WFB died and AoS came along, interest it seems died in my group because WFB was no longer going to evolve constantly and keep them ploughing cash into it.
30k gained all the money from this death of WFB from all three of my gaming friends as it is the current GW cash cow and rapidly evolving.
40k died during 6th ed for my group due to many factors:
1) 30k becoming mainstream
2) formations
3) the release of 7th ed so quickly after 6th whilst not really solving any of the problems of 6th
4) codexs being made redundant seemingly a year or two after release
5) total confusion regarding army composition and rules due to the whole toy box current style of 40k

30k has given my friends a game with definition and growth to keep them spending cash in bucket loads but with a direction in mind.
40k has died because they arent engaged by the whole "whatever" attitude GW have pushed in regards to building and buying your army.

Personally i cant wait for 8th ed, because ive not liked the rules since 4th ed at all. I still buy the odd model to paint, but ive found other games to invest my time and limited money in. The way i see it, GW have taken a 25+ year old skirmish game and tried to turn it into Epic, without changing the core of the system. For me this hasnt worked at all. The addition of super powerful units has meant the lesser units have had to have more extra rules to keep them vaguely viable, a sort of plaster or patch to keep them selling. More and more units have been given inv saves and feel no pain and other bandage rules because without them they just dont last on the tabletop. Much like earlier editions where fearless became so popular that morale became a non-existent feature in 40k, units are now being given a variety of rules to stop them snuffing it because of the sheer number of weapons that place an old LP record on the table to see how many models are removed.

While I have no problem with your attitude towards the game I feel compelled to point out that all the problems you have in your last paragraph (big powerful stuff, fnp etc) ALL those exist in 30K so whats the difference? Tons of stuff in 30K can get fnp. They allow superheavies in an average game and supply many ways to re roll failed morale. Also, the weapons are ridiculous, volkite is crazy good and a deredeo is downright mean.
They also use the exact same rules for the main game with only the Foc and minor differences here n there. I have a hard time wrapping my head around when people claim they are different as night n day when its more like apples and gold plated expensive apples.
So what's the difference?

And Cuz this is the interwebz: im not "comin at you bro'ing" or anything, just asking.

[Popsical]

While I have no problem with your attitude towards the game I feel compelled to point out that all the problems you have in your last paragraph (big powerful stuff, fnp etc) ALL those exist in 30K so whats the difference? Tons of stuff in 30K can get fnp. They allow superheavies in an average game and supply many ways to re roll failed morale. Also, the weapons are ridiculous, volkite is crazy good and a deredeo is downright mean.
They also use the exact same rules for the main game with only the Foc and minor differences here n there. I have a hard time wrapping my head around when people claim they are different as night n day when its more like apples and gold plated expensive apples.
So what's the difference?

And Cuz this is the interwebz: im not "comin at you bro'ing" or anything, just asking.

Im not claiming the two are very different at all. I play neither anymore (like daboarder i would play 4th ed with 3rd/4th dexs).
My little group find that 30k is more clear cut and consistent in its army composition than 40k, which allows them to plough their cash into it.
Its been clear to me for a few years now that my days of feeding GW my hard earned dosh are over and will probably never return.
I like to spend my hobby time and limited cash on games that reward me for my tactics and thought, not reward me for spending a veritable **** ton of cash on the latest model which gives me the ability to roll 36 d6 with re rolls per turn and has five special rules to stop it carping it.
Which ever way you cut it, the more dice you roll the less control you have of the outcome. When i wargame i never need so many dice to resolve a single units turn, the dice are there to add a random element to the result of my choices. Now GW have become obsessed with adding dozens of random elements to each phase of each units turn, thus my choices are made with far less influence to the game. I wargame because I want to influence the outcome of the game. "Hey didnt i do well!" Not "Hey look how many dice and how many special rules my new unit has!"

[Alaric]

Fair nuff. I was thinking you were on board with yer buddies and doin it how they were.
Yeah 30K foc is pretty good at evening things up. Every dice game ive ever played usually goes along the lines of "he who rolls the most dice wins!" so Im on the fence on that wnd of it. Thanks for answering :)

[Popsical]

No problem. It's nice to voice my opinion and have it rationally questioned on a forum, then elaborate on it and not be shouted down.
cheers bud