The Force Awakens - Spoilerific Discussion.

[Mr Mystery]

This thread is for confirmed info about The Force Awakens, and confirmed info only.

I thought I'd get it set up ahead of time so we have a repository for reviews etc, without tainting other threads with spoilerish info.

This is important to me, as so far all I know, I know from the trailers and the preceding official books and comics.

There is but a single additional rule to posting. Every post must start with a copy/pasta of the follow italicised text. This is protect the sidebar from inadvertent spoilerage.

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Please. If you don't want to know anything about it until you've seen it, quit this thread. This is your first, final and only warning.

For beyond this point?

HERE BE SPOILERS

Right. Time to abandon my own thread until at least Thursday morning, when I'll have seen it.

[Erik Setzer]

Bah. It'll be Thursday evening at the earliest for me to see it, and those crowds are too crazy to deal with, so likely Friday. I'm going to try to talk my friend (and anyone else who wants to go) into going to the 9:40am showing.

[Mr Mystery]

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Just seen it.

Wow.

Like......BIG MASSIVE HAIRY WOOKIEE BALLS WOW.

It is superbly superb. Truly, truly awesome.

Familiar motifs are played out, but in new ways.

If you're taking someone who's not massively familiar with the preceding 6 films, don't worry. This one is self-contained awesome-win-sauce, and doesn't require Knerd Knowledge. At all.

The action scenes are fantastic. Properly, properly fantastic.

There's some characters I felt were under utilised, including Phasma - but we're dealing with a trilogy here, so plenty of room for manoeuvre now the opening act is out there.

Oh, and take your tissues.

You're gonna need them.

[Gotthammer]

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Just got home from it now and wowzers was it amazing.

Highlights:

Seeing a little girl dressed as Rey bopping her brother dressed as Vader on the head before the film started.

Seeing lots of little girls being excited for the film

The cast's chemistry together is so good

"Who's in charge now, Phasma? Who's in charge now?!"

Lady stormtrooper!

Adawble x-wing pilot survives! (Jess Testor I think? Called Jessika Pava in the comics/novels)

Ladies everywhere! And non-white people too!

BB-8 was very cute (headbutting R2-D2, the thumbs up, shocking Finn)

Doctor telling Chewie he must be very brave

Rey. Just everything about her is amaze

"This one?"
"The one I'm pointing at."
"This?"
"THE ONE I'M POINTING AT!"

Lightsaber scenes very dynamic but not as over the top as 1-3

The whole scene with the two gangs on the freighter

"Women always find out."

Pretty much any scene with Han tbh

The two stormtroopers who turn and walk away when Ren is freaking out


Cons:

Chewie didn't talk to Leia after they came back from the big mission! That one seems really wrong but I can see the necessity of having Leia and Rey interact like that but still seems wrong having him just walk off

The end scene was bordering on Return of the Kingishness with the million endings but not really just a bit of a nitpick I guess

Not enough Phasma

"Supreme Leader Snoke" - not only his name but he looks pretty silly


Not good or bad but just something I noticed:

Poe really looks like Bruce Campbell in some scenes

[Mr Mystery]

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I'd broadly agree with that.

I think a crucial part is Kylo Ren.

He's powerful, and then some. But when the mask is off? He's just a scared little boy. Lost and terrified.

Soooo many plot hooks I want to know more about!

[Gotthammer]

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Ok but imagine if they did this instead:

Kylo Ren: Thank you *stab*

Han: I love you

Kylo Ren: I know

[eldargal]

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Went to a midnight screening, was totes amazing.

First the negatives:
Phasma was a bit underused.
Snoke looked like Gollum and Voldemorts lovechild.

The positives:
Everything else.

Rey was wonderful

Actually I'm just going to echo everything Gott said because she covered all of it lol.

I am totes shipping Chewie and the Doctor. also Finn and Poe. And Rey and Pava just because.

- - - Updated - - -


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Ok but imagine if they did this instead:

Kylo Ren: Thank you *stab*

Han: I love you

Kylo Ren: I know

I was thinking that too lol.

[Mr Mystery]

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It's definitely Rey's movie. Daisy Ridley seriously runaways with every scene she's in.

Weirdest thing for me? At the now ripe old age of 35, I saw the main cast and kept thinking 'nowt but bairns. Y so young?'....which of course is the whole bloody point. Luke and Leia were 19 at the time of A New Hope, so Finn and Rey's youthfulness just brings that back. For wee kids, heroes to look up to. For teens, heroes to aspire to.

And now for Mr Mystery's Top Three Mysteries......seriously spoilers coming.....

1. Why did Kylo Ren take out the Jedi? I want to know that story, and I really hope Episode VIII concentrates on that.
2. Just how big is The First Order?
3. Why are the Resistance not the Republic?

[Gotthammer]

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1. Why did Kylo Ren take out the Jedi? I want to know that story, and I really hope Episode VIII concentrates on that.
2. Just how big is The First Order?
3. Why are the Resistance not the Republic?

1. Well Rey says he's afraid he'll never be as powerful as Vader, so I'm guessing also from what he said about Han letting him down that he went a sort of Anakin route of "need to fix my problem" - "need power to fix my problem" - "not getting enough power this way" or something like that.

2. As big as the plot requires :p

3. My assumption is that given they've gone with not recognising the area of space Luke was chilling in that the Republic is big, but not controlling the whole galaxy. Like they're powerful but there's enough room to ignore the First Order for now and let the Resistance fight them as a proxy.

[eldargal]

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Yup, Daisy Ridley gave a superb performance (they all did, but she stole all the scenes).

1) Based on what is said in the film, Snoke corrupts Ren, Ren kills the other Jedi to prove himself.
2) I was wondering this too. After The Battle of Jakku the New Republic signs a treaty with the Empire, so is the Empire a splinter group or has the Empire completely disappeared?
3) If the Empire is still around, then attacking the FO directly could provoke them into war, like a kind of cold war situation.

Which reminds me I'm glad the New Republic is still around, everyone was assuming they weren't.

[Mr Mystery]

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All good answers.

Except......Kylo Ren was Luke's nephew, and his Padawan. If anyone could tell the truth about Vader, it's Luke. So how did Snoke get into Ren's head? How did the story of Anakin just become one about power?

NEED TO KNOW MOAR!!!!! Damn you, Disney. You know how to sell the integrated universe!

I can see every kid that sees this film being absolutely thrilled. It may have been a long time ago, but I can still remember not knowing about ESB and ROTJ, so I remember knowing pretty much nothing about the story.

And the little blighters are getting that again :)

[eldargal]

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Oh also, how amazing is Lupita N'yongo? Completely cgi character and she still stole her scenes and was amazing, Maz Kanata ftw.

[Gotthammer]

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I can see every kid that sees this film being absolutely thrilled. It may have been a long time ago, but I can still remember not knowing about ESB and ROTJ, so I remember knowing pretty much nothing about the story.

And the little blighters are getting that again :)

There were some early teens behind me and one of them hadn't seen any of the movies but after they were all really hyped up and excited. Also they had a life sized BB-8 in the foyer and lots of kids getting photos with him :)


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Oh also, how amazing is Lupita N'yongo? Completely cgi character and she still stole her scenes and was amazing, Maz Kanata ftw.

Yup, so good. Totes better than Yoda hehe :p Though would have been great if she was just her without CGI just being amazing and gorgeous and 1000 years old lol

[Mr Mystery]

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Yup. You can tell Msr Serkis was bossman for the motion capture. Just brilliant.

Highlight for me? Chewie mugging Phasma.

It's just the 'I'm badass, I'm a badass, I'm a badass. Chrome suits me, I am euphoric in this moment, so shiny, so chrome OH NO WOOKIEE KNUCKLES OOOOOF!'

I really hope Phasma returns. Really, really hope she returns. Her character didn't play much of a role, but then Gwendoline Christie was added relatively late in the day.

You know, more I think about it, the more I realise I want to know more about every character. Every single one of them. And I've missed that. It was a bold storytelling choice, to just have everyone in the background know each other, and not waste time explaining those relationships. It's there to create a cohesive backdrop for the main story. And they very much pulled it off.

[grimmas]

Are people posting spoilers here? 😉

[Mr Mystery]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/926180213bf5896de902ab9d345215059537ba26.jpg

Does that answer your question? :p

[energongoodie]

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I liked it but not blown away :(
Some really good bits and then some issues I had with pacing and cgi, aka snoke, being bobbins that pulled me back out of the star wars world.

I thought John Boyega and Daisy Ridley were excellent!
Han on the bridge......... when he says Ben......... brill.....
Han in general = Brill!
BB8 = Brill
The Falcon = brill!
Not enough Poe or Phasma. I felt like they were only in for a couple of days filming and that would have been it.
Luke at the end on some moist rock was a bit underwhelming.

How is Rey so strong with the Force? why is Ren so bad with a light sabre?

I'm hopin my next trip will make me like it more.

[eldargal]

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What cgi problems were tehre aside from Snoke?

I actually liked that Luke basically only got a cameo, if only because it kept more of the focus on Leia and Han rather than trying to spread the attention between the oldies.

Also interesting that as far as we know Rey isn't related to any of them, she isn't Leia and Hans daughter, I guess she could possibly be Luke's. That could explain how she is so strong in the Force. But sometimes people are just strong in the Force so it doesn't necessarily need a reason. I thought maybe she coudl have been a padawan of Luke's new Jedi but you would think she would have remembered lol.

[Gotthammer]

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I thought the thing with her vision when she touched the sabre was her having a flashback to her memories or being super ickle when Kylo Ren killed the new jedi with her being a sole survivor and hidden on Jakku to keep her safe? Like she was one of the new Jedi's kids.

Also Kylo Ren mentioned her dreaming of oceans and that's where Luke was chilling out at so guessing they'd met before or something? Doubt she's Luke's kid, but wouldn't put it past them

[eldargal]

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Yup it certainly seems like she could have been a padawan, but if she were surely she would have remembered more? Also why think Luke was a myth if you were training with him. It would explain why Ren got so crotchety when that random officer told him a girl found BB-8, he might have suspected it was her. But then at other times he didn't give any hints of that so...

That could have been a force vision of the future, and Maz Kanata says the companionship she is looking for lies in the future not the past? very mystery, much unclear. Reyly interesting. wow.:p

[Gotthammer]

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I was thinking like she was 5 or thereabouts, so not a padawan yet. But with where the film left off the next one should answer things pretty quickly with any luck lol.

Yes what I meant was that they'd met so she was having visions of where he was now, didn't explain that one too well. Also that pun is Poethetic :p

[eldargal]

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I thought she was a little older than that? I don't know but either way being a padawan is certainly a possibility heh. Only two years until we find out heh.:p

Oh right, yes that makes sense hehe.:p I Kanata disagree.;)

[Mr Mystery]

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I have to Han it to Chew. Yoda best at puns.

[Gotthammer]

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I checked and the ickle Rey actress plays 5-8 year olds so yeah, a mysterious mystery :p Is that all? lol :p

Explaining things properly'll do that :p I think we should Finnish this line of discussion before we BB-8 too far from the main topic ;)

[Mr Mystery]

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Luke, all this pun jibber-Jabba is fine and well, but Ohnaka with the spoilers!

[eldargal]

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I'm very proud of that Kanata pun, I'm going to Padme self on the back.

Oh I just remembered another minor thing I really liked was that the fighter ships, particularly TIEs, no longer just exploded into dust when they were hit, more often than not you saw the cockpit continuing to move which opens up more likelihood of pilots ejecting or crash landing which makes helmets and flightsuits make more sense lol.

[Gotthammer]

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I'm very proud of that Kanata pun, I'm going to Padme self on the back.

I've never seen someone go Solo in pursuit of humour. I'm really starting to get Nunb to these sorts of jokes :p

And yes the ships crashing and such is much better indeed :)

[Mr Mystery]

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Still can't believe how excited I was from the trailers now I know they somehow managed to show nothing.

Oh, and Kylo Ren going all smashy-smashy when he's got the arse. Brilliant stuff. Especially the second time, when the two Troopers just decided best not, and walk away.

I think I'm gonna have to see it a second time, so instead of second guessing the plot, I can take more in.

[eldargal]

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I know right? Makes the fans whining about how they have spoiled too much of the film look pretty damned silly now.

Yup, I also liked how he didn't actually kill any underlings. That always annoyed me about the EU. Like we see Vader kill Ozzel, a, Admiral, for being a prat, but then we're supposed to believe they would casually murderise half their staff when something went wrong, it just never felt right. Like commanding officers responsible for making underlings competent? Sure, sometimes after a major **** up maybe. But not just randomly. Having said that those two troopers shoudl get some kind of meritorious common sense medal.

Yep, we're going to go see it again on Saturday probly. Maybe tomorrow lol.

[Mr Mystery]

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Best bit? My cousin's sprogs are, I think, 4 and 6. Owen, the eldest is totes getting a Star Wars figure from me for Christmas, and his sister? I'd get her a Star Wars figure too, but I suspect Owen would just 'adopt' it....so fancy glittery crayons and assorted colouring stuff it shall be. I'd love to get her a Rey, but perhaps a bit too wee for it this year.

Episode VIII? Both totes getting Star Wars figures!

[Mr Mystery]

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Also, thinking back, I liked how Maz herself didn't seem scared or angry that the First Order were attacking - and given her earlier speech about having seen evil in many forms over the past thousand years, that's entirely appropriate.

So excite! So chuff!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I've seen it 3 times already. O_O

New Republic - gone
Rey - awesome
BB8 - awesome
X Wings - super great
Homages - top, but dangerously close to being too much
Kylo Ren - Interesting character, if not a little bit of a b*tch.
Han's death - tragic!
Han shouting "Ben!" - such a powerfully delivered line 'you will listen to me because you are still my son' in one word.

Cannot wait to see the rest of the Knights. Finn and Rey had amazing character development throughout the film, but Rey definitely got me on the light side of the force.
Hopes?
Don't make Luke fight... Keep him as a tutor. Although, him sacrificing himself to save Rey would be cool.
I hope Rey isn't his daughter.

[Arkhan Land]

SPOILER SORT OF

BIG BIG QUestion this left with me, do the dark jedi/sith see their own deceased the same way the good jedis do? is kylo ren really being a twerp or is he possesed? when darth vader "killed the good man who was" anakin is there some part of him that manifests seperately?

if this was the case would luke know about it when training his young apprentice?

like is there a reason why kylo talks to vader's mask even having never met him?

btw did some research according to some info from clonewars cannon info the sith cannot, but anakin learned how from qui and obi and therefore had been trained before his turning, so maybe this created an inherently dangerous situation for someone who could see his force ghosts

so yeah callin it now, when darth teenage rebel talks to that mask he sometimes hears vaders voice

[Mr Mystery]

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Denofgeek have a decent article listing the stuff we don't know. Worth a read. (http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars/38296/star-wars-the-force-awakens-what-didnt-we-see)

And, Daniel Craig did have a cameo as a Stormtrooper. He's the one Rey mind tricks. How cool is that?

[Mr Mystery]

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Sod it, gonna go see it again on Monday :)

[Denzark]

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Just out. Massive sense of relief that they didn't **** it up completely.

Few quibbles though:

Novices with light sabres being totally and beyond competent with them (Finn/Rey).
Republic not having dealt with FO.
Poe Dameron - arrogant as Dash Rendar.
Kylo without mask - reminded me of Master/Blaster without mask in Mad Max beyond Thunderdome. Weak unthreatening features. Does the lack of Sith yellow eyes mean he will be forgiven?
'Starkiller' - really? No, really? And although 4 times the size of Death Star 1, it has a fatal flaw of 'kill the shields with a commando team and then attack 1 weak point with fighters' - I mean come on, JJ, I know you like tributes - the chess set on the Falcon was genius, 'Starkiller' was contrived.
'Resistance'. Why is there a Republic and a Resistance? Why did the designs of A- and B-Wings not survive into their armoury when upgrading T-65 to T-70 is a thing?
Why has Leia not got a lightsabre and jedi training?


Will defo watch again, and was better than prequels (better star wars film than Spectre was a Bond film) but has not supplanted Empire or Jedi for me yet.

[Erik Setzer]

Saw it this morning, first showing of the day. It was so much better than I expected. I have to see it more times in theater, and I will preorder the moment I can.

I actually like Kylo Ren - or should I say Ben? - even more now. I mean, sure, he's still kind of a jerk. But he's a more interesting character than just someone who was totally evil. It seems he ended up looking up to Vader because Vader was pretty much the most powerful Jedi around, and he wants to be like Vader as he understands Vader to have been, but he just can't get rid of his conscience. In the end, he has to kill Han in an effort to try to purge the last of the good in him... but it's questionable as to whether that actually worked, and the anger he's directing outward might be anger at himself for doing such a thing and still being no stronger than he was. He's a conflicted character, nowhere near one dimensional.

I loved all the new characters added. I'm glad I've found out Poe and Phasma are already coming back. Phasma didn't get much screen time, but you can tell she's a serious no-nonsense leader. Poe is just all around awesome, right from the start where he's sassing Ren like no one's business.

I swear I could just gush on and on about scenes I liked, callbacks I liked, how awesome the new X-Wings are, how good it looked, all kinds of stuff... but I'll contain myself for now and just say, that... was... AWESOME.

Now on to seeing what other folks are posting and joining the discussion!




And now for Mr Mystery's Top Three Mysteries......seriously spoilers coming.....

1. Why did Kylo Ren take out the Jedi? I want to know that story, and I really hope Episode VIII concentrates on that.
2. Just how big is The First Order?
3. Why are the Resistance not the Republic?

1. Sounds like Luke tried to teach them about Vader, probably to teach them that you don't have to be all bad and also the history of the Jedi, and Ben picked up on just Vader being ultra powerful and Dark Side. (If you want to see Vader at his nastiest in the new canon, check the Vader Down crossover currently going in the comics. He takes out so many Rebels it's ridiculous.) So on his first step to going the Vader route, he slaughters all the other trainees.
2. Probably a pretty good size, at least a few dozen systems. Seems to be Imperial Remnants that banded together.
3. From what I got from the movie, it seems the Republic has taken over most of the galaxy again, but not all of it. Rather than being officially at war with the First Order, they fund the Resistance through back channels. Everyone knows it's happening, but officially they're neutral in that conflict. It's sort of like western nations arming rebels in a Middle Eastern country to pick a winner... only in this case the Republic knows the Resistance will lead systems to them.

- - - Updated - - -


Oh also, how amazing is Lupita N'yongo? Completely cgi character and she still stole her scenes and was amazing, Maz Kanata ftw.

Yes!!! She was brilliant. The character didn't stick out that much as full CGI. It's like an example of how to do it right. But she was pretty awesome, and I'm glad she didn't die in the attack. Sucks that her place got wrecked.

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I really hope Phasma returns. Really, really hope she returns. Her character didn't play much of a role, but then Gwendoline Christie was added relatively late in the day.

She's said she'll be back as Phasma in Episode VIII. Probably with more of a chip on her shoulder after that mess!

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How is Rey so strong with the Force? why is Ren so bad with a light sabre?

I'm guess Rey might be related to the family somewhere, especially with what happened when she touched Luke's saber. Or she's just a really Force-sensitive person who never knew.

Ren isn't terrible with a saber, but he likely didn't get much practice with it at Luke's training, and he fights very angry, which makes him sloppy. Especially at the end there, he got shot right after he killed Han, so he's already walking around bleeding a lot and hurt, then keeps taking slices that must also hurt, all the while pissed off at people in his way and probably pissed off that he killed his own father and feels no less conflicted for it.

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like is there a reason why kylo talks to vader's mask even having never met him?

Simple: He's having a one-way conversation. People do it all the time, talking to inanimate objects, even things that hold no sentiments but are just objects. In this case, it's his grandfather's old mask, so he feels that it gives him a "connection" to his granfather, even though it doesn't. For him, it's still enough, it lets him convince himself that he's on the right path.

[Arkhan Land]

1. Sounds like Luke tried to teach them about Vader, probably to teach them that you don't have to be all bad and also the history of the Jedi, and Ben picked up on just Vader being ultra powerful and Dark Side. (If you want to see Vader at his nastiest in the new canon, check the Vader Down crossover currently going in the comics. He takes out so many Rebels it's ridiculous.) So on his first step to going the Vader route, he slaughters all the other trainees.

Simple: He's having a one-way conversation. People do it all the time, talking to inanimate objects, even things that hold no sentiments but are just objects. In this case, it's his grandfather's old mask, so he feels that it gives him a "connection" to his granfather, even though it doesn't. For him, it's still enough, it lets him convince himself that he's on the right path.


I don't neccesarily think its so simple, and I think it has to do with what went wrong with his training. There's a bunch of focus on this in the clone wars with specifically the First Jedi Temple being the place where Obi/Qui/Yoda train on post mortem manifestation and it being the place where luke is trying to find in this movie has me sort of curious

[Gotthammer]

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Novices with light sabres being totally and beyond competent with them (Finn/Rey).

Well we saw the Stormtrooper with the tonfa so can be assumed they have training in a variety of melee weapons (and Finn didn't do particularly well in either fight). And Rey was proficient with her beatstick, and when she fought Kylo he was, as Erik noted, wounded and not thinking straight as well as how trained he is being up for debate.

And besides, they're the good guys! :p



Why has Leia not got a lightsabre and jedi training?

She didn't want it? Too busy being an awesome General and political leader to get training? Jedi training has doesn't have enough sarcasm, yelling and shooting things for her style? :p

[Mr Mystery]

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Yup.

Besides, who is left to teach the kids Lightsaber fighting? Luke wasn't exactly proficient himself, and it's seems age and a robotic body slowed down Obi Wan and Vader respectively.

I'm beginning to wonder if Rey might be Palpatine's daughter....

[eldargal]

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Saw it again last night, still holds up to second watching

[eldargal]

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Found out some more of the things:

Another female FO Stormtrooper can be heard when the FO forces are evacuating Takodana after capturing Rey, so that's nice.

The city planet the Starkiller weapon destroyed was the political capital of the New Republic, Hosnian Prime. You hear the name in the movie and Finn says the FO have attacked the Republic but it isn't said its the capital I don't think, that's in the Visual Guide to TFA.

[Mr Mystery]

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Also, good mix of accents this time around.

[Erik Setzer]

She didn't want it? Too busy being an awesome General and political leader to get training? Jedi training has doesn't have enough sarcasm, yelling and shooting things for her style? :p

Being a Jedi, as they're "supposed" to be and not as they actually were, would make it hard for her to actually lead the Resistance, or get involved in anything. Why limit yourself to just trying to be a monk with a close combat weapon, when you can do more for people as a general? She's where she belongs, leading the fight for freedom, and being awesome at it.

- - - Updated - - -


The city planet the Starkiller weapon destroyed was the political capital of the New Republic, Hosnian Prime. You hear the name in the movie and Finn says the FO have attacked the Republic but it isn't said its the capital I don't think, that's in the Visual Guide to TFA.

Yep. And apparently the Senate would have been meeting there, too. Probably not all of the Senators there at once. Even if they were, that would have probably just pissed off a bunch of planets. And then the fear of the Starkiller would have been swept away by its being destroyed (especially by a small force), so all that's left is a LOT of anger toward the First Order. It's likely they didn't take out the whole Republic fleet (that would be pretty much impossible), and even if they had done severe damage, I imagine they have the shipyards still around to churn out new ships.

I'm wondering who has systems like Kuat, or Corellia. The Republic should still have Mon Calamari, and they could probably easily start churning out new warships.

Basically, the First Order just declared war on the Republic, taking an internal struggle with the Resistance and turning it into a full-blown galactic war. It'll be nice if they actually do something with that in the future movies. Even if Mon Mothma had reduced the Republic's military to 10% of what it had been, and most of that was in the Hosnian system, that wouldn't prevent other systems from getting the factories going again.

[Mr Mystery]

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler

Here's a thought.....

All we've seen so for of Supreme Leader Snoke is his hologram.......

And many have noted (quite accurately) that the CGI there was, well, a bit ****. Especially compared to Maz, and every other such beastie.

I put forward that's entierly deliberate. The Snoke we've seen isn't Snoke. It's just a facade. Which of course means Snoke could be anyone.....

[Arkhan Land]

Lando!

[Lexington]

U

Here's a thought.....

All we've seen so for of Supreme Leader Snoke is his hologram.......

And many have noted (quite accurately) that the CGI there was, well, a bit ****. Especially compared to Maz, and every other such beastie.

I put forward that's entierly deliberate. The Snoke we've seen isn't Snoke. It's just a facade. Which of course means Snoke could be anyone.....
I was thinking something along the same lines - Snoke's hologram is *huge*, so I'd almost guess that he's something or someone very small. Dark Side Yoda?

I kinda hope he's not anyone from the old movies, tho. Awakens was great fun, but I felt like it leaned way too much on elements from the OT.

[Mr Mystery]

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I dunno if what we're seeing is actually Snoke at all. It could be absolutely anyone, or anything. Even a mad Droid somewhere - though I hope not.

I quite like the recurring motif. It helps to add to the feeling of a mythic cycle - the same tragedies playing out time and again.

[Lexington]

I dunno, when you're on your third Death Star in four movies, maybe it's time to branch out a bit. :p

[Mr Mystery]

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Technically 6 movies, given its cameos in Episodes II & III :p

But that level of threat is very Star Wars. The good guys' victories have always come at a high price. Alderaan being detonated, the extremely thorough kicking throughout Empire Strikes Back, losing a fair chunk of their fleet over Endor.

Such things serve to heighten their heroism, so it's nice to see it back.

And without a Super Weapon and the will to use it, would we have accepted the First Order to be the threat they need to be?

Though having endorsed the approach here, I hope they branch out more in Episode VIII. Can't always rely on familiarity.

[Erik Setzer]

I think they did more callbacks in Ep 7 to help ease veterans back into Star Wars, and followed a similar structure to Ep 4 because it works to bring in a new generation. Get this movie out of the way, cleanse the bad taste of the prequels out, and then in Ep 8 and 9 they can do things that are fresher.

Of the characters from the prior movies, I think they were used fine, not really over-used. Leia as a general seems right, she's always been leading the soldiers of the Rebellion/Republic/Resistance. Han and Chewie going around the galaxy doing their old tricks and finding the Falcon again (after having lost it in a similar way to how Han got it)... I can believe that. Luke is, of course, the central star of the core Star Wars series. C-3PO and R2-D2 had brief cameos. I think that was Ackbar in the planning scene, but his presence would also make sense, given he was the first admiral in the Rebel Alliance and has experience.

For Han, it was definitely a final tour. Leia might be back in the future movies, since she is a leader (and, well, we are dealing with her son here). Chewie is probably going to be sticking around with Rey on the Falcon, but I don't think that's too bad (come on, we all love Chewie). BB-8 seems to be the new main droid of the series (and while I like C-3PO and R2-D2, they got a bit overused with the prequels, and BB-8 has his own charm). Obviously, we'll see more Luke, but probably more in a mentor role.

The new cast of characters they've introduced to carry through the story are great. I can't wait to get more adventures with them.

I do hope they explain what's happened during the break between Ep's 6 and 7 (preferably not in books written by Chuck Wendig). Some novels, comics, maybe TV series, maybe even movies set in that time, it'd be nice to get more of the story. You can figure out the gist of what happened by paying attention (there are some people who clearly didn't, sadly, like Angry Joe who's done two viewings and still doesn't get that the Resistance isn't the Republic), but it's good to have more of the story.

[Gotthammer]

http://36.media.tumblr.com/641d47d68d1c3bfc07606b22c51041ff/tumblr_nzl1pwe9Fz1sgadq7o1_1280.jpg

[Gotthammer]

https://41.media.tumblr.com/1a6498dba73aa58c27f3d4bd338a7501/tumblr_no66opilxJ1ty8p83o1_1280.png

http://36.media.tumblr.com/5a5051fb99b5fd14be0c3ab76dce08c9/tumblr_nzh512YIsu1tu6tfso1_500.jpg


Carrie Fisher and Gary - Star Wars: The Force Awakens Premiere at Leicester Square on December 16, 2015 in London.


So, this is important. Carrie Fisher has an invisible illness and disability - severe mental illness - and she’s been really open about it. Open to the point where she has her service animal Gary out on the press tours.

Yeah, a service animal. Not a guide dog, a therapy dog. Fisher has almost died because of her illness - and the reason she could DO Star Wars is because she has accommodations that work for her.

Everyone is talking about how Gary has stolen the show - but he is *important*. He is working. He is what she needs to go out and do this ****.

Next time someone with a disability asks for you to do something simple to accommodate them I want you to think of this. This is Princess Leia and this is her accommodation for her illness.

[Gotthammer]

Oscar Isaac on Poe & Finn's relationship:

http://45.media.tumblr.com/4f3a9eba097c8e2a7b213621f3a77b08/tumblr_nzlw3s00kM1sa13x9o1_r1_250.gif

http://49.media.tumblr.com/42071eeea7974f24cbb580c55a004786/tumblr_nzlw3s00kM1sa13x9o2_r1_250.gif

http://49.media.tumblr.com/ea8d27c8a35264d2b410aac06f995b02/tumblr_nzlw3s00kM1sa13x9o3_r1_250.gif

http://45.media.tumblr.com/ab9681957a732d1e88679b8519a5504e/tumblr_nzlw3s00kM1sa13x9o4_r1_250.gif

"subtle"

https://41.media.tumblr.com/664dba2146017cde8a4ad66d9664aff8/tumblr_npv7s2yE5S1r4ry90o1_400.jpg

[eldargal]

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Yup so subtle lol. The only thing the scene where they run to each other and hug near the end was missing was rose petals floating through the air.:p

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“movies about women and poc aren’t profitable”
http://41.media.tumblr.com/0204d7cc3c482680c04fbf6467b4cb54/tumblr_inline_nzofmy7fdu1t3cpon_500.png

It's Reyly Poeformed Finntastically at the box office.

[Gotthammer]

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The only thing the scene where they run to each other and hug near the end was missing was rose petals floating through the air.:p

"Fiiiiiiin-chan!!!"

"Poe-senpaiiiii!!!!"

:p

Edit:

While I do hope that any love triangle to come is Finn torn between Poe and Rey (or not have one at all because love triangles are stupid and overdone [I'm also reliably informed that polyamoury is the solution to everything]), making the OT very gay is very possible (http://kingcheddarxvii.tumblr.com/post/132711387632/i-had-the-biggest-frickin-revelation-of-my-life):


I had the biggest frickin revelation of my life tonight when I realized that viewing the Star Wars films with the headcanon that Luke Skywalker is in love with Han Solo improves the films 100%, not just Because Of Gay but because it actually negates all of the awkward “Luke is secretly in love with Leia” undertones in episodes IV and V. Look out, Sith Lord Jar Jar, here comes Gay Luke:

In both episodes IV and V, Luke expresses discomfort whenever Han talks about his interest in Leia, presumably because he himself has a crush on her

But if you view it under the assumption that he actually likes HAN, it also makes total sense that he’d be uncomfortable with his crush talking about someone else

And remember that Leia is the one who initiates all physical shows of affection between her and Luke, and continues to do so platonically even after she professes her love to Han

I makes complete frickin sense within Luke’s character too. Luke’s just a tender space farmboy dreaming of adventure so of course he’d crush on the most badass space cowboy in the galaxy

Luke grows up a lot over the course of the films, but he matures the most between episodes V and VI, after reuniting with Leia. He spends a year between those movies training and planning Han’s rescue, and he becomes a lot more Jedi-like in his demeanor. PERHAPS, in part, because, seeing Leia’s obvious love and dedication for Han, he decides she’d be happier with him and he commits wholeheartedly to the lonely life of a Jedi

Remember how Luke casually force chokes Jabba’s guards? We already know from Anakin’s fall to the dark side that Skywalkers are prone to invoke the dark side through strong emotions such as love - Luke later does this in Return of the Jedi when he overpowers Vader. He doesn’t know Leia’s in danger when he arrives at Jabba’s palace! He’s there for his buddy and will save him at any cost

I’d like to remind you that this theory, headcanon, one-sided ship, whatever you wanna call it, isn’t refuted ANYWHERE in canon, unless the new comic books come up with a way to “no-homo” Luke & Han’s relationship

Even if Luke had (canon, sorry EU) offspring and they factor into the new films, that wouldn’t refute this theory because, as we all know, bi people exist, and 30 years is plenty of time for Luke to move on

YOU’RE WELCOME!!

[eldargal]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/4fb39c68353450cb9d5598f8ff5d2835/tumblr_nu28yke8gN1ufwq0ro1_1280.jpg
:p

"Poe-senpai, I thought I had lost you!"
"I will never leave you, Finn-chan"
*their lips almost brush as they embrace tenderly*

Leia in hte background like:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cd/0c/c0/cd0cc0bb17078aa05bd210a8624e4cea.gif
:p

[Gotthammer]

https://33.media.tumblr.com/b2d5e545d5d8489862c31c2ed6e2ff9c/tumblr_inline_nznuf5TCZk1qhe4z9_500.gif


https://41.media.tumblr.com/b851fe3c3004f09f3f40ab13688698e8/tumblr_nzmmy72NWJ1tbnt80o1_500.jpg

https://49.media.tumblr.com/7633460791bd54d45be328dc75b54e5d/tumblr_nzkoc0WK6K1qa3emao1_500.gif

[eldargal]

Omigosh lol.:p

[Mr Mystery]

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Watched it again.

Poe's winning run? He racks up no less than 10 confirmed kills.

That sequence is in danger of ousting the Charge of the Rohirrim as my greatest cinema moments.

And yes. Poe and Finn.

Finpoe.

[Charistoph]

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Anyone else think Ben looks and acts like a young Snape before he quit being a Deatheater?

[eldargal]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/bf2a505fd403a957308be3c3064b2afd/tumblr_nzmvp0eR6s1ukpsuto1_1280.jpg

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWnxS5cU4AAUi7j.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

A fair point well made.

I know in retrospect the original trilogy wasn't particularly female sympathetic, but for her time Leia broke the mould, so it's massively pleasing to see Disney picking up that baton and simply casting who they clearly considered to best for each role.

Are Poe and Finn gay? Who knows. It's been far from established either way. BB-8, male or female? Up to the viewer.

Does Finn have a thing for Rey? Not from what I've seen. Far more just a support group being there for each other. Finn, to the best of his knowledge (remember, he doesn't actually see Rey using the Force!) dragged Rey away from her home and into horrific danger. That's why he wants to rescue her himself. He feels responsible.

Such a good movie!

[eldargal]

Leaked cut footage of Kylo Ren:
https://49.media.tumblr.com/53e6eb7dfc4b3fe44ebf49ef497f8a41/tumblr_nzqxmjq1ss1s2oxgqo1_400.gif

Leia was amazing, problem was she wat only woman in the galaxy.

certainly in terms of canon can't say that Poe and Finn are gay/bi, but the actors have said hey played it like a romance so there is certainly deliberate subtext there heh, and more romantic chemistry betwen them than Rey and anyone.

[CoffeeGrunt]

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Just got back from watching this last night, very enjoyable.

The cinematography in this movie, was simply gorgeous. I don't think a single shot was wasted, nothing felt muddled, JJ really brought his A game to this one. There are so many likable characters, and they feel so much more believable than the Prequels. Finn and Rey have great on-screen chemistry, there's some serious bromance if not more between Poe and Finn, and they mesh with the old hands really well. It makes for a cast you can get behind and cheer on for victory.

I also liked the humour in this. It didn't override and detract from any tension or action, it was consistently funny, and it didn't feel childish. Highlights include Rey and the Stormtrooper she mind-controls, Chewie and the doctor, and Finn and Phasma 'who's in charge now, huh?!' Many other scenes that make we want to go book a second viewing so I can take it all in properly.

The action as well is much better, as one would expect from a modern, high-budget film. We watched Hope and Empire the night before this to kinda prime ourselves, and spent the entirety of Hope ripping into everything from the Empire apparently only being able to afford four Tie fighters to defend the Death Star with, to Storm Trooper aim. Off the bat in Force Awakens, they establish the Storm Troopers as being a bit more competent, and it's a pretty cool, brutal scene that establishes things nicely.

As Mystery said, the scene that really got the hype going was the one with Maz's castle under attack, then the camera pans to the lake beside it as a cloud of water vapour is closing in fast. That moment and the battle following was damn cool, and beautifully shot. It's also cool to see Finn trying to fight with a saber, but only really getting to the point of just about managing to block incoming hits. That energy truncheon thing was cool, interesting to see anti-Jedi equipment issued to Storm Troopers.

The only thing that irked me, was that it felt a bit...safe. The formula's much the same as Hope, and the FO is much the same kind of threat as the Empire. There's similar failed strategy, (would it kill the Empire to put a fleet on guard around their hyper-expensive planet killers, for Christ's sake?) Similar Weak Point of Doom. They brought in a lot of old hands and familiar faces as if to pull in fans of the OT, and the callbacks became a little too much, perhaps. Honestly though, I can fully understand why they took this approach, especially after the Prequels, but what they added to the universe held up damn well. I'd like to see Episode VIII really start to lean more on their new stuff, the new characters. I hope we see this evolve into its own thing.

Also, why another planet killer? Funnily enough, I don't even consider that sort of thing to even be an Empire thing, it doesn't fit their MO. Gimme a moment, I'm just going to use an example from another universe to compare to the Death Star, the Covenant from Halo.

Now, the Death Star can annihilate a planet in a single blast. Starkiller Base can annihilate several, by the looks of it. Quick, brutal, powerful. It's a sledgehammer to the head of the enemy. No fleet action, no fighters or ground invasion, just a big ol' beam and an asteroid field where a planet used to be.

However, the Covenant feel more Sith than the actual Sith. The Covenant can appear at any time in your isolated, backwater system on the edge of UNSC space. You get whispers and radar pings signalling them at the edge before they jump into the system, right in front of your defensive fleet. You mobilise and try to mount a defense, but through superior technology, numbers and manpower they smash your fleet aside as it tries its best to cover a civilian retreat. A few get through before the net closes and the Covenant gain orbital supremacy. They surround the planet, and start pouring troops, tanks and air support into the cities. Town-by-town, building-by-building, room-by-room, they move in and kill everyone. Civilian or military, old or young. No-one is spared. They then claim the prize they landed for, typically an ancient Forerunner artifact, then get back to their ships.

Once their troops are withdrawn, they begin glassing the planet. Methodically, they split the planet into a grid, and their ships move into position and begin using their plasma lances to boil everything below, melting it all into a vitrified slurry that cools into bubbling glass. Buildings, mountains and fields all end up the same. It can take months if the fleet is small, but they dedicate themselves to it with an intense focus humans can't comprehend. They cleanse the planet of all possibility of humans ever living there again.

And the civilian transports that escaped at first? They're left untouched once they break orbit. They watch, they retreat to safe colonies, and spread the word, spread images of a planet made of burning glass, with a smashed fleet of human ships burning in orbit above it.

Given that the signature Sith moves involve either slowly choking your opponent, or electrocuting them to death, the latter approach feels more Sith. Spread fear, spread pain. Take your time and be cruel with your kill. Use force to shatter your prey's defense, then torture them as they lay helpless. Show them the might of your fleet as its blasters pound everything in sight into ash. Don't leave an asteroid field as a symbol, because it's unrecognisable as being a planet. Leave a burnt, ashen shell of a world. Leave the scorched ruins of high and mighty spires, of senate halls and once-beautiful buildings.

Leave your tortured enemy as a cruel reminder of what crossing you entails, and make sure some survive to spread the tale. I don't think Disney will ever go that far, but it'd be interesting to see this as the First Order's MO, given their SIEG HEIL nature. Then, when they're assaulting the planet, our plucky heroes have to try and break up their fleet in a last-ditch attempt to save the lives of those on the Republic planet. Thousands are dying ever minute under the bombardment, meaning that rather than a countdown to a planet blow up, our heroes are aware that every second is a tragedy.

And after they win, it's pyhrric. They pick over the rubble and pull lucky survivors out, fear is rampant and the First Order makes itself known as a powerful entity that will visit retribution upon anything which defies it. The Republic can rise up, again, to stand against it.

I dunno, I just think that silly, giant planet killers are stupid. Why do that, when you could build a thousand star destroyers, and roast a planet slowly? That, is surely the Sith way.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Fin clearly latches onto Rey because he's never been treated nicely by anyone who didn't get something out of it before. I don't think it has anything romantic there.
Rey and Po, who knows, it'd be awesome but I honestly don't mind as long as the characters are well developed.
Mad props for the film btw, as thus far the only starwars film I liked was Strikes Back and I liked this one a great deal.

[Morgrim]

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Yeah, I admittedly didn't the vibe that Finn and Po are currently into each other, but more that there was a lot of chemistry and that they could BECOME an item. That once Finn wakes up Po could ask him on whatever the 'hey I'm an awesome pilot watch me trying to be suave' equivalent of a date is. (Do children raised as indoctrinated stormtroopers know what a date is? Someone had better explain that bit to him. :P )

[Tyrendian]

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very good movie, if not quite the masterpiece in our time that 4-6 were in their days, but that's a tall order...
Mostly very good characters, at least on the light side of things. Very nice action scenes, and not grossly overdone either. Just about the right amount of humor, BB8 was totally awesome (and that's what I'd feared the most, Disney turning the whole thing into a slapstick nightmare with BB8 being the new JarJarBleargh).
The only major letdown for me were the pretty pathetic bad guys. I mean, Kylo Ren was a badass in the first half, until he first took off his mask - that whiny face just killed any menace he had built up before. And then him, trained and powerful Jedi/Sith/whatevsyouwannacallhim that he is, first throws a temper tantrum like some five year old that doesn't get his ice cream, and then gets trounced in light saber combat by two total noobs, one of whom doesn't even have a shred of force powers and got beaten up by your random Storm Trooper with a stick before. How sad is that. First truly weak main villain in the series for me, Vader was menacing as hell, Darth Maul all kinds of scary, Dooku well Christopher Lee nuffsaid, Palpatine had very good "evil genius puppetmaster flair" in both trilogies - and now we get his total failure? HOW? Especially after the awesome scenes he had in the first half (stopping a blaster bolt in midair beat everything the other baddies did all through the movies, except maybe Darth Maul first showing off his dual saber)...
Phasma gets set up as a badass Stormtrooper leader, and then literally dropped into a garbage dump without any good moments at all. I mean, couldn't you at least have shown how she was captured in some kind of decent fight instead of just having her suddenly trudge along and doing everything they want her to? Such a letdown, and waste of Gwendoline Christie... Although I do hold out hope she might make a "surprise" return in the later movies.
General Hux aka Adolf Junior just yells around, gives a textbook badguy believing he does the right thing by bringing order speech, and is generally incompetent at his job.
And the general incompetence of FO military was staggering... I mean the soldiers themselves did a good job, even the Duckface Troopers felt decently threatening and the new TIEs were awesome... But it felt like no one in the entire First Order had ever heard of the concept of Sensors, or Patrols for that matter. Or how else did Finn and Poe get off the chubby Star Destroyer and down onto the planet and into hiding? How did Rey and Finn get the Falcon off said planet again? How did anything ever get close to Starkiller Base? Although I will say its critical weakness didn't feel quite as idiotic this time around...

[eldargal]

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I think that is the point of Ren though. He isn't a powerful badass, he's a scared little boy trying to live up to the warped image of Vader Snoke has filled his head with. We see him at his most intimidating when he is attacking a village with a large military force behind him and he is largely unchallenged. We start to see him fall apart the moment his family come on the scene and his internal conflict starts dulling his abilities.

Phasma was still kind of cool, looming around like a giant SHINY AND CHROME amazon, but yes it was still disappointing overall to just have her dumped in a garbage chute lol.

I loved Hux though, he was like the quintessiant arrogant British Empire officer. I really see the FO as kind of like the epitomy of Imperial arrogance. All these arrogant little ****s brought up thinking they should have inherited the galaxy because they are so much better, and then Snoke comes along and radicalises them basically. They are arrogant, and the soldiers might be better trained, but they aren't necessarily and elite organisation overall.

[Cutter]

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Kylo Ren was a bit of a letdown.

Hopefully Kylo Stimpy will bring his A game.

[Mr Mystery]

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See, I like the feel of the First Order - they're a good proxy for Neo-****s - they're desperate to live up to their poorly chosen idols, and fond of ignoring history.

And Hux's speech was suitably spittle flecked, and when you look at their officers, there's barely any amongst their number old enough to shave - they're largely just kids. This to me suggests that they've not been around all that long as a power, but have instead been slowly building their power base up in secret.

Starkiller Base? I don't believe for a second that the First Order built that. No way. I think it's another of The Empire's Super-Weapons they discovered raiding Imperial Archives (which we know they have access to, hence their partial copy of the map to Skywalker). Why claim they built it? What better way to indoctrinate the impressionable Youth than claiming they did all this - look how organised a powerful we are. We certainly didn't just sort of find it. Not us. Oh no.

Hell, going on the comics issued as part of Journey To The Force Awakens, it could be Snoke received a post-mortem messenger Droid from Palpatine, giving him access to the base.

And from what we know of The Empire under Palpatine, the well known existence of the Death Stars might well have been a ruse - something to terrify the locals with and focus the Rebellion's attentions, whilst the Starkiller, you're true super-weapon able to destroy entire Solar Systems is kept secret until it's truly needed.

They really have knocked it out of the park with this film. So much I'm desperate to know, and I don't care if it's an 18 month wait, or having to buy more books - I will find it all out!

[Tyrendian]

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hmmm... for me, the movie kind of never managed to create any real threat to the good guys, because of how incompetent I percieved the majority of the baddies' leadership to be... Especially when I compare the assault on Starkiller Base to the endings for both IV and VI, it just felt like "yeah, I know this is gonna work... get it over with...", in a large part because neither did the movie establish anything about the defenses of Starkiller Base, nor did any of those involved seem particularly worried about their chances of success. Both Death Star attacks were set up to be acts of total desperation (well the second one turned into one once the Imps sprung their traps), while the new one kind of had a sense of routine to it that for me just failed to create any suspense. And in general there were a few too many "I so knew that was coming" moments and not enough "What the heck didn't see that one coming", which is partly due to all the hommages...

[Charistoph]

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hmmm... for me, the movie kind of never managed to create any real threat to the good guys, because of how incompetent I percieved the majority of the baddies' leadership to be... Especially when I compare the assault on Starkiller Base to the endings for both IV and VI, it just felt like "yeah, I know this is gonna work... get it over with...", in a large part because neither did the movie establish anything about the defenses of Starkiller Base, nor did any of those involved seem particularly worried about their chances of success. Both Death Star attacks were set up to be acts of total desperation (well the second one turned into one once the Imps sprung their traps), while the new one kind of had a sense of routine to it that for me just failed to create any suspense. And in general there were a few too many "I so knew that was coming" moments and not enough "What the heck didn't see that one coming", which is partly due to all the hommages...

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When you've spent your lifetime facing the ridiculously impossible and succeeding to be a sore in their side, the crazy becomes routine. And let's just say Po has all the arrogance of any Correllian fighter pilot to make a lot of it routine like many a Jedi did in the Clone Wars.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This theme tho:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65As1V0vQDM

[Erik Setzer]

Oscar Isaac on Poe & Finn's relationship:

My friend keeps swearing Poe is gay. Since he himself is gay, I tend to trust his "instincts" on that more than my own... but I wouldn't blame him if he was just hoping.

The weekend before the movie opened, there was a Star Wars event at the central park in town, lots of people turning up, music, all kinds of stuff, but also vendors. There was an artist selling his work, and one of his images was Poe posing on the ladder of his X-Wing, really cool piece. The artist said he had a serious "crush" for Poe... while his wife was sitting there, seemingly amused by that.

[Erik Setzer]

Leave your tortured enemy as a cruel reminder of what crossing you entails, and make sure some survive to spread the tale. I don't think Disney will ever go that far,

SPOILERS for the Darth Vader Annual #1 comic following...

In the Darth Vader Annual, Vader goes to a planet that isn't doing its due for the Empire (and seems to be thinking rebellious thoughts). He has his assassin droids (basically evil versions of C-3PO and R2-D2, which is awesome) sneak into the king's throne room and slaughter everyone there, while the king's daughter was trying to trick Vader into being in a shaft that floods with molten metal (sacrificing herself, too). Vader escapes, because he's freaking Vader*, and takes the last remaining member of the royal family to see the dead king and her dead siblings and royal court, then hands her a box he'd intended for the king: It has a chunk of rock in it, which Vader informs her is all that's left of Alderaan, a symbol of what happens to planets that think to defy the Empire.

So Disney kind of went there, a bit. And I think that'd be effective.



*Vader is seriously such a badass in the comics. In the Vader Down crossover, he takes out multiple squadrons by himself (including turning torpedoes back at the guys who launched them at one point), a small army sent to capture him (activating all their thermal detonators at once), and continues to take out anything they throw at him. Luke's able to track where Vader is by watching the explosions from a distance. It really sets him as being this serious threat that he's supposed to be.

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When you've spent your lifetime facing the ridiculously impossible and succeeding to be a sore in their side, the crazy becomes routine. And let's just say Po has all the arrogance of any Correllian fighter pilot to make a lot of it routine like many a Jedi did in the Clone Wars.

That's how I felt about it, especially with Leia leading them. She was around for those hopeless fights where they kept besting the Empire (Yavin, Hoth, and Endor were all embarrassingly bad defeats for the Empire). Her presence would help lift people. Then toss in the guys like Poe, who have an attitude of "I know I'm the best, I can get this done, we all can!"

[Mud Duck]

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Things I liked: Rey and Finn, Loved the characters, great acting, and I wonder and pray that they will flesh out their stories and characters more in the next movies.
Maz? Replacement Yoda think she is, and without the speech impediment :) Very nice CGI and motion capture, as well as well acted.
Han Solo; Harison Ford looked like he was having fun, and finally got what he wanted after, what? 30 years?
The bit with Chewie and the Doctor, LOL.

Things I didn't like: No BAD guy, I think that closest was Phasma, but she wasn't on screen long enough. Darth Emo;really? I really would have liked to see him be EVIL and not just evil. Strangely, I did like that he didn't kill the messenger, as it is hard to get your minions to tell you that the plan has gone pear shaped if you kill the ones that are relaying the bad news. Grand Mott Ginger, like Mystery stated, too young/new to the whole evil thing to get it right and proper.
Stormtroopers; You've been a soldier literally your whole life, and you still can not dress ranks properly? First weeks of boot camp people! Look at the scene in RotJ when the Emperor comes aboard the Death Star, that is how ranks of Troopers should look, not the playing at solders look in this movie.
Poe; Too over the top.
Dogfights; Poe would have ripped the wings off his X-wing a half a dozen times trying some of those turns, and if that didn't kill him the G-forces or him passing out do to lack of blood to the brain would have. Plus the number of Ties that he shot down seemed too much/too fast. Yes, he is a ace pilot, but come on, really? JJ should really start to watch how real planes fly and fight, and bring that into the movie more.
Assault craft/drop pods; Standing up, untetered, with weapons in hand? We are trying to have someone survive to the planet right? One bank and there's a broken neck and a dropped blaster, add evasive maneuvers and your going to just have pour whatevers left in the hold onto the battlefield and that's if one of the blasters doesn't go off and hit something important, say the pilot.

Odd thoughts. Why didn't they target the Resistances base first? "Here look. We just wiped out a major military power in one shot. Submit or your next."
Why didn't anyone think to turn the piece of map puzzle around in the first place. Also that looked like a large piece of the universe there, how can you not find the right system by counting the number of, say planets in that system and the systems around it and matching those numbers up to a map. All that processing power and they can not figger out a map?
Why do Bad Guys and their architects seem to have a phobia of hand/guard rails?
How is there any natural life, trees, birds, etc. on the Star Eater? That level of 'reconstruction' one would think would killed the world. No more planetary core, no more radiation belts, no more gravity, no more atmosphere, etc. Have to give to the builders for one thing.

Oh and Stormtrooper armor filters out smoke but not poisonous gas? WWWHHHHAAAATTTTTT? headdesk.

[Erik Setzer]

Some of those concerns I could probably answer with some "realistic" answer... but we're watching a space fairy tale. Please go watch the original movies with that picky of an eye. They all fall apart horribly. So does that make you dislike those films? If you can overlook that stuff with those films, why is it that suddenly we expect Star Wars to be ultra-realistic?

Okay, let's go ultra-realistic: No more lightsabers. Seriously, how can we explain those with our current science? We can't. Oh, it doesn't matter they've had over 25,000 years to work on them in the Star Wars universe.

Just taking the Poe fight, for an example: Aside from "the rule of cool," it's simple enough to imagine that an advanced X-Wing would use some variant of the standard artificial gravity generators found on all kinds of starships to help keep the pilot in place and allow for more maneuverable flying without compromising the health of the pilot. They might also have improved the maneuvering, and Poe could be making use of the repulsorlifts and other tricks on the fighter without us realizing it (because explaining all of that would be boring). Plus we don't know the density of the planet's atmosphere.

But geez, why are we discussing the realism of a series that started off with a farm boy with no military training hopping in an expensive piece of military equipment he'd never flown and accurately firing torpedoes that flip 90 degrees to go straight down a shaft that should be forcing air out and should be covered to begin with and not lead straight to the center of the 100 mile wide starship with an impractical superweapon; with the evil forces led by a guy who'd had all four limbs cut off, set on fire, entire body burned beyond what any body could sustain... Oh, and how are the Stormtroopers always missing? In one scene they're shooting at a pair of people who are literally standing in the exact same place, all they have to do is train their fire on that spot. And what is the purpose of the Dianoga? How does anyone get around that 100 mile ship, given that even on a highway it'd take over an hour to get from one side to the other? Are the hangars just that close to the bridge? Wouldn't the crewmen be fried by that giant planet-destroying laser passing through the tunnel they're standing in? Why do the Rebels have so many pilots with pilot gear and not enough fighters? How did Han not show up on the radar of Vader and his wingmen? How does Vader's TIE have hyperdrive? How does hyperdrive break the laws surrounding light speed? And Han says the Falcon only goes "point five past light speed," so does that mean 1.5 times light speed? Even so, it'd take years to get from one system to another, not hours.

I could go on and on. For some reason, people will wave that away with Episodes 4-6 (and that's just Ep 4, I could have gone nuts with the others), but act like Episode VII should be "scientifically accurate" and all as far as our understanding of science (which doesn't include real starships, or laser weapons, or light swords, or aliens, etc., etc., etc.).

As for the striking the Republic before the Resistance: The Resistance didn't have a military. The Republic's military was small, but it did have one, so it's more of a military target. It also sends a lot bigger message to take out, say, Washington, D.C. or London, than some town that holds the rebel army America and/or England is financing to fight a dictator. (Seriously, did *anyone* pay attention to Hux's speech?)

[Lexington]

*Vader is seriously such a badass in the comics. In the Vader Down crossover, he takes out multiple squadrons by himself (including turning torpedoes back at the guys who launched them at one point), a small army sent to capture him (activating all their thermal detonators at once), and continues to take out anything they throw at him. Luke's able to track where Vader is by watching the explosions from a distance. It really sets him as being this serious threat that he's supposed to be.
I'm only so much of a Star Wars fan, overall, but...really? I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the OT is Vader ever portrayed as superpowered godmode murder-warrior. Having him jet across the galaxy killing armies feels almost as out-of-place as Yoda zipping around with a lightsaber.

[eldargal]

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Remember they do have artificial gravity so g-forces not necessarily something they have to woryr about.

They didn't go after Resistance base first because their t arget was the political capital opf the New Republic, Hosnian Prime, which is the one they blew up. Hux actually says if they take out the New Republic then the Resistance won't be a threat, of course there is a whole galaxy wort of New Republic left untouched now that their starkiller base got blowed up so in hindsight you could argue it was the wrong decision lol.

I think Ren was actually much better than just another Vader clone, he is conflicted but he chose evil and murdered his father, I mean yes he as a bit whiny but that's a family trait for Skywalker men lol and Han wasn't that much less whiny than Luke to be honest.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm only so much of a Star Wars fan, overall, but...really? I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the OT is Vader ever portrayed as superpowered godmode murder-warrior. Having him jet across the galaxy killing armies feels almost as out-of-place as Yoda zipping around with a lightsaber.

He's supposed to be Palpatine's most feared enforcers, able to cause entire worlds to abandon resistance to the Empire just by being there so he should be a complete badass. The comics are really, really good.

[Mr Mystery]

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Stormtrooper helmets not filtering out toxins?

It's all done on the cheap. They're wearing cheapo knock off, because functionality is a second compared to conjuring bad memories of The Empire. Think the same as an original Hugo Boss SS uniform, and the horrible imitation draylon 'replica' your average neo-**** can actually afford on their dole....

[CoffeeGrunt]

Trying to pick holes in Star Wars tech using current-day technology as an example? Silly boy. For one, the X-Wing is simply not aero-dynamic, for two we don't know what materials it uses, but they could be designed for high speed turning and thus have materials designed to withstand the shear stress on them. For three, the cockpit could have an artificial gravity generator that produces a bubble that keeps the pilot sat on his chair feeling gravity go, "downwards." That way, regardless of orientation, they're also sat comfortably in their seat, in air or space. Additionally, said field could also negate the centripetal force of hard turns by projecting a force to counter it, meaning the pilot never experiences G-Force to a significant degree.

Fourthly, there's far more far-fetched stories of real-life military feats out there than most things Star Wars came up with.

[eldargal]

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Which reminds, peopel are whining about the starkiller weapon being ridiculous now, saying how it is so absurd that one beam of energy could split into 5 and hit different targets. Seems a lot less silly than firing 8 lasers into the same spot of space and have them magically combine? I mean without some kind of focusing thing which the Death Star did not have that is impossible, whereas Starkiller base could simply have fired five separate beams which split off when it got closer to the target. also: its ****ing fantasy.

[YorkNecromancer]

Which reminds, peopel are whining about [WHATEVER BOLLOCKS PERSONALLY SABOTAGES THEIR WILLING SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF] being ridiculous now, saying how it is so absurd

Two words:

Space wizards.

'Yeah, but it's just so - '

Space.

Wizards.

'Yeah, fine, I get it, the Jedi. But - '

http://i.imgur.com/Du19f.jpg

SPACE WIZARDS

[Charistoph]

Trying to pick holes in Star Wars tech using current-day technology as an example? Silly boy. For one, the X-Wing is simply not aero-dynamic, for two we don't know what materials it uses, but they could be designed for high speed turning and thus have materials designed to withstand the shear stress on them. For three, the cockpit could have an artificial gravity generator that produces a bubble that keeps the pilot sat on his chair feeling gravity go, "downwards." That way, regardless of orientation, they're also sat comfortably in their seat, in air or space. Additionally, said field could also negate the centripetal force of hard turns by projecting a force to counter it, meaning the pilot never experiences G-Force to a significant degree.

Fourthly, there's far more far-fetched stories of real-life military feats out there than most things Star Wars came up with.

In space that is one thing, but in atmosphere you have more to worry about than just inertia and g-forces. The amount of resistance from the atmosphere would be enough to rip the wings off or at least severely strain the integrity of the joints.

But then, they have energy shields and repulsor drives which can operate on such a high efficiency that someone with no means of gaining fuel or power can operate such a unit long after servicing of anything else needs to be performed.

[CoffeeGrunt]

In space that is one thing, but in atmosphere you have more to worry about than just inertia and g-forces. The amount of resistance from the atmosphere would be enough to rip the wings off or at least severely strain the integrity of the joints..

Integrity of the joints using current joining techniques. We have no idea how they're manufactured, out of what material, etc.

[Charistoph]

Integrity of the joints using current joining techniques. We have no idea how they're manufactured, out of what material, etc.

I'm going to prefer the energy shield and repulsor argument as being more valid. After all, we don't see these guys even building up heat going IN to atmo.

Integrity is physics. The materials and processes may be more capable of taking on those stresses, and thus being able to take on higher stresses longer, but they would still apply.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Integrity is physics. The materials and processes may be more capable of taking on those stresses, and thus being able to take on higher stresses longer, but they would still apply.

Still applying a simplified understanding of physics to an advanced, complex design. It's like showing someone from the early 1800s a picture of a fighter jet with a short explanation for how it flies, and then they accost you on how it can't possibly fly because it's heavier than air, and no machine could survive movement at such speeds anyway.

Or explaining to WWII-era naval architects that your steel isn't so insanely brittle that the keel snaps in half after too much time in cold water because seven decades of metallurgy, yo.

[Mud Duck]

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoilerspoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler

Stormtrooper helmets not filtering out toxins?

It's all done on the cheap. They're wearing cheapo knock off, because functionality is a second compared to conjuring bad memories of The Empire. Think the same as an original Hugo Boss SS uniform, and the horrible imitation draylon 'replica' your average neo-**** can actually afford on their dole....

They literally have the resources of of an entire planet to work with, and nobody thought to grow a couple of peach trees?

Yes I realize that the ships are constructed with different materials and technics, but He takes off noses up, shoots a TIE down, zips a couple hundred feet, and whips around 180 degrees shooting two more TIES down, all without leave the shot. It's not really the physics of the thing too me, but more a visual thing, braking the suspension of belief for me.

Luke was able to pick up the Xwing piloting so quickly because he had an T-16 at home and the cockpits are basically the same. :rolleyes:

I'm kinda disappointed in the use of the Star Trek warpspeed tunnel effect and the not the streaking starfield in the long shots of the Falcon.

[Gotthammer]

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I'm kinda disappointed in the use of the Star Trek warpspeed tunnel effect and the not the streaking starfield in the long shots of the Falcon.

It's always been like that (https://youtu.be/xPZigWFyK2o?t=57s).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Propulsion/Hyperspace1.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGp_5gOww0E

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080630200517/darth/images/thumb/1/1c/Hyperspacefalcon.jpg/500px-Hyperspacefalcon.jpg

[Mud Duck]

I'll be damned. Guess my memory is a wee bit mucked up.

[Mr Mystery]

They literally have the resources of of an entire planet to work with, and nobody thought to grow a couple of peach trees?

Yes I realize that the ships are constructed with different materials and technics, but He takes off noses up, shoots a TIE down, zips a couple hundred feet, and whips around 180 degrees shooting two more TIES down, all without leave the shot. It's not really the physics of the thing too me, but more a visual thing, braking the suspension of belief for me.

Luke was able to pick up the Xwing piloting so quickly because he had an T-16 at home and the cockpits are basically the same. :rolleyes:

I'm kinda disappointed in the use of the Star Trek warpspeed tunnel effect and the not the streaking starfield in the long shots of the Falcon.

Having the resources of a planet, and having the technology and expertise to then exploit them are two different things though.

See, this fits my mental picture of the First Order. They didn't build any of it. Instead, whoever Snoke turns out to be had access pre-Endor to Imperial Installations - and top secret ones. Advanced designs of Star Destroyer. The Starkiller base. TIE Fighters.

What he didn't have was troops - hence the kidnapping and brainwashing we know has been going on - this would also explain why it's taken him so long to be in a proper position to attack - he's now built up his numbers to the point where he can absorb some levels of casualties from counter attacks. The rest of his equipment is cheapy knock-off imitation. It need only look the part to conjure the spectre of the Empire.

How much is now left? I guess we'll be finding out in about 18 months time :)

[Charistoph]

I'm kinda disappointed in the use of the Star Trek warpspeed tunnel effect and the not the streaking starfield in the long shots of the Falcon.

You have that backwards. The recent Star Trek movie added that affect to the Star Trek universe (well, that and Motion Picture). In every other one before it, Warp Speed had the starfield streaking by, and Hyperspeed had a tunnel affect.


Still applying a simplified understanding of physics to an advanced, complex design. It's like showing someone from the early 1800s a picture of a fighter jet with a short explanation for how it flies, and then they accost you on how it can't possibly fly because it's heavier than air, and no machine could survive movement at such speeds anyway.

Or explaining to WWII-era naval architects that your steel isn't so insanely brittle that the keel snaps in half after too much time in cold water because seven decades of metallurgy, yo.

Stress is still stress. A joining method will not change that. Metallurgy will not change that. It can be diverted in to another resource or compensated for, but it will still be there. Either there is no air against the strike foils (energy field, inertial compensators, etc) to generate the stress, or they are compensated for, but Po's just have to be reworked more often. They really don't go over the maintenance requirements of the average fighter, much less any of the Resistance's, and even less anything that Po flies.

[Gotthammer]

http://41.media.tumblr.com/8995e17ed2df3dde7cd281f4010f746d/tumblr_nzryy4s5sG1qd39tro1_540.jpg


han: ben i'm not taking you to hot topic until you clean your room
leia, gently correcting him: han, he wants to be called kyle ron now
kylo, his voice cracking: IT'S KYLO REN

http://41.media.tumblr.com/5ec0f79601416d231fe04f6f6d9ffd8a/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo1_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/71140ca7e466205c4e04dc42c746f331/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo2_r1_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/e9bd6166c96a478ad1be8df5dd968979/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo3_r1_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/f90e5a5dde04533c381f4358e6b7536f/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo4_r1_1280.jpg


Hi my name is Kylo Ren and I have long ebony black hair and icy blue eyes like limpid tears and a lot of people tell me I look like Anakin Skywalker (AN: if u don’t know who he is get da hell out of here!). I’m not related to Emperor Palpatine but I wish I was because he’s a major ****ing hottie. I’m a sith but my face is not old and wrinkly. I have pale white skin. I’m a goth (in case you couldn’t tell) and I wear mostly black. I love Hot Topic and I buy all my clothes from there. For example today I was wearing a black helmet and a black robe, and black combat boots. I was wearing black lipstick, white foundation, black eyeliner and red eye shadow (under the mask tho). I was walking outside on the Stardestroyer. We were fueling the weapon so there was no sun, which I was very happy about. A lot of stormtroopers stared at me. I put up my middle finger at them.

[Mr Mystery]

First confirmed deleted scene (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/star-wars-the-force-awakens-jj-abrams-on-why-major-scene-featuring-maz-kanata-and-leia-was-cut-from-a6785171.html)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Emo Kylo Ren Twitter (https://twitter.com/kylor3n)

[Tyrendian]

Emo Kylo Ren Twitter (https://twitter.com/kylor3n)

brilliant

[Morgrim]

This is a galaxy far far away. (That mysteriously has humans, but since THEY don't know how they got humans either we'll ignore that.)

One of the dominant theories in physics suggests that the raw physical properties of the universe - ie the stuff that makes the laws of physics the laws of physics - could in fact vary from place to place.

I think we can conclude that certain fundamental physical values are different in the Star Wars galaxy, and thus their laws of physics behave differently. Especially gravity, which seems remarkably manipulatable where. Electromagnetic force to a lesser degree. Clearly the reason stuff works there is that the Laws are different! So it doesn't matter that they're impossible here. :P

[eldargal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBsEuUZcosw

[Gotthammer]

Carrie Fisher is wonderful and John Boyega is the bestest.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/321a775449e1a6d92812479d71c3a68c/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no4_540.jpg

http://36.media.tumblr.com/def20ab5d9914404eb2e61b9897c2f0f/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no2_540.png

http://41.media.tumblr.com/a8409cb0213ad247e2a63751ad4ad980/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no7_540.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/1f992d7adb24b8802e3bfbe83d0ad53c/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no6_540.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/21fbf8f732e2b782d45d32d5d4391401/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no8_540.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/e46f0a07d1a09d5b13814f7cce18a5ae/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no5_540.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/3ba077cbf598b30e80bb811838fc117d/tumblr_nzt1jziKIK1s7fo3no3_540.jpg

[eldargal]

He's adawble.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/888513ca9ea6b7308b6fa78cf87fdd33/tumblr_nzv0sluWxv1qetl59o1_540.png

[odinsgrandson]

I'm only so much of a Star Wars fan, overall, but...really? I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the OT is Vader ever portrayed as superpowered godmode murder-warrior. Having him jet across the galaxy killing armies feels almost as out-of-place as Yoda zipping around with a lightsaber.

Well, do you include Battlefront II in that? He kills a lot of people when I play him, at least...


Actually, I think Darth Vader has the same trouble as Gandalf. I mean, in all of Tolkien, Gandalf is equal to about a level 3 wizard in D&D. He has a couple light spells (light and daylight to banish wraiths) and he can turn pinecones into small firebombs.

Then, they talk about how he's worth more than a thousand soldiers on the battlefield- and off screen he's banishing Sauron from Murkwood and smiting the ruin of Balrogs on the mountainside.

Peter Jackson had to figure out how to handle adaptation of that contraction, and I think he did a great job at it.



Vader has the same problem- they talk him up as crazy powerful, but in the movies it is all talk.

I mean, Darth Vader claims that the "ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." How do you reconcile that with how he behaves in the movies? I think that Grand Moff Tarkin needs to say "Dude, then why the hell did we spend the past three year's military budget on this thing?"

In Return of the Jedi, Yoda and Obi Wan make it clear that destroying the Death Star is less important to the fate of the universe than defeating Darth Vader.

Also, Vader is supposed to be conflicted between the light and dark side- and extremely emotional (Anger, Fear, Hatred). But what we see is stoicism with some cruelty.

In order to continue the story, J. J. Abrams- and everyone else writing Star Wars stuff- need to figure out how to adapt those contradictions. It isn't a surprise to me that so many different creators had different solutions to the problem.

[Charistoph]

Well, do you include Battlefront II in that? He kills a lot of people when I play him, at least...


Actually, I think Darth Vader has the same trouble as Gandalf. I mean, in all of Tolkien, Gandalf is equal to about a level 3 wizard in D&D. He has a couple light spells (light and daylight to banish wraiths) and he can turn pinecones into small firebombs.

Then, they talk about how he's worth more than a thousand soldiers on the battlefield- and off screen he's banishing Sauron from Murkwood and smiting the ruin of Balrogs on the mountainside.

Peter Jackson had to figure out how to handle adaptation of that contraction, and I think he did a great job at it.



Vader has the same problem- they talk him up as crazy powerful, but in the movies it is all talk.

I mean, Darth Vader claims that the "ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." How do you reconcile that with how he behaves in the movies? I think that Grand Moff Tarkin needs to say "Dude, then why the hell did we spend the past three year's military budget on this thing?"

In Return of the Jedi, Yoda and Obi Wan make it clear that destroying the Death Star is less important to the fate of the universe than defeating Darth Vader.

Also, Vader is supposed to be conflicted between the light and dark side- and extremely emotional (Anger, Fear, Hatred). But what we see is stoicism with some cruelty.

In order to continue the story, J. J. Abrams- and everyone else writing Star Wars stuff- need to figure out how to adapt those contradictions. It isn't a surprise to me that so many different creators had different solutions to the problem.

Well, he had 20 years to build up a reputation with, so if you've done it several dozen and very publicized ways, you often don't need to work as hard later.

As for the voice, the only time he's shown emotion is with Ozzal and Luke. He ground the words with Ozzal while choking him, and then Luke hit him with a lightsaber, followed by a plea to join him. All of this with a system that changed his voice from a whiny teenager or old damaged white dude in to Mufasa. Apparently they didn't get the emotional reference in very well when they programmed his voice box. But hey, he probably didn't program it like he did the over emotional 3P0.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm only so much of a Star Wars fan, overall, but...really? I'm pretty sure that nowhere in the OT is Vader ever portrayed as superpowered godmode murder-warrior. Having him jet across the galaxy killing armies feels almost as out-of-place as Yoda zipping around with a lightsaber.

Not really. Especially as he wasn't setting out to kill an army by himself, it just happened that he stumbled across a planet with a good bit of Rebel forces on it... and then the Rebels threw more people at him because he's Vader and capturing him would be something huge.

Also, it's not a stretch to imagine someone strong in the Force (remember, this guy survived having his remaining limbs cut off and then set on fire and burning for quite some time, and he's had a couple decades to learn since then) reaching out and manipulating multiple objects at once. The original movie trilogy doesn't do things like that because it didn't have the budget for it (or a point in the plot where it'd work), but in A New Hope, he does shoot down a lot of the X-Wings by himself.

- - - Updated - - -


of course there is a whole galaxy wort of New Republic left untouched now that their starkiller base got blowed up so in hindsight you could argue it was the wrong decision lol.

I imagine many systems have their own fleet with the Republic dismantling most of its military, so they could probably band together to make a pretty good fighting force. And it'd be made up of different types of ships, not just a fleet of all Star Destroyers and/or Mon Cal cruisers!

- - - Updated - - -


Luke was able to pick up the Xwing piloting so quickly because he had an T-16 at home and the cockpits are basically the same. :rolleyes:

I keep hearing that argument, but I'm not buying that a civilian oversized speeder has anywhere near the same kind of controls as a craft designed for space travel, hyperdrive, multiple weapons systems, shields, etc. Just because Incom makes both doesn't mean they work the same. It's like saying that General Motors switching their production facility to tanks means anyone who's driven a Chevrolet can now pilot a tank.

[Mud Duck]

I keep hearing that argument, but I'm not buying that a civilian oversized speeder has anywhere near the same kind of controls as a craft designed for space travel, hyperdrive, multiple weapons systems, shields, etc. Just because Incom makes both doesn't mean they work the same. It's like saying that General Motors switching their production facility to tanks means anyone who's driven a Chevrolet can now pilot a tank.

Looks to be a little more then just a speeder http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper. I think that the general idea is that Incom has a standard layout of the controls in their ships, and with an addition or two, civilian parts can be used in military craft and vice versa. As for driving a tank, not that difficult. Hardiest part is knowing where you can go, and what to avoid. Say my beautify layed out minefield with triple standard fence, if those godless tanker *******s knew how much of a pain in the arse rolling up the wire that they stretched out for a good 2 kicks.

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah, I said "oversized speeder" because it's not like a basic cruise-on-the-ground speeder, but it's pretty much a civilian craft meant for operating inside a planet's atmosphere, with different maneuvering characteristics and all. Its wing setup doesn't include a set of s-foils, so it wouldn't have controls for those. Similarly, it's got very light weaponry (almost none, because it's a civilian model), as opposed to four laser cannons (that have multiple fire settings) and two proton torpedo launchers (with their own set of controls). There's just so much stuff that'd be different, you can't just take a person who's flown in one and slap him in the other and think it's okay. We (the audience) let that slide because he's the major protagonist. Sort of like how he's able to match skill with Darth Vader, who even as Anakin was supposed to be one of the best lightsaber combatants around, even though Luke never really had lightsaber training. (He had that little bit on the Falcon... and that's it. Yoda *might* have taught him something, but that's doubtful, as Yoda was first trying to teach him things that didn't involve combat and even tried to push Luke away from relying on the lightsaber, so given the short time he had, it's likely there wasn't any lightsaber training.)

Driving a tank might not be that difficult... but you have to first learn how to do it. A person can't just hop in one blindly and know what to do. (Especially if they also had to control the weapons systems, as an X-Wing pilot has to do.)

[Arkhan Land]

SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SORT OF

POFIN!

on a serious note how about that ABSOLUTELY ****ING INCREDIBLE anakin force ghost artwork

the stuff of ****ing nightmares people
nightmares

I really hope that and the daemonic alter-realm emperors throneroom make it into the next episodes

f************** so dark I really wisht hey had taken this episode more in this direction

http://screencrush.com/anakin-skywalker-star-wars-force-awakens/

[Gotthammer]

https://45.media.tumblr.com/bda5667b9e809cd91b284b9a2f8bd8db/tumblr_nzs4hdUdaf1tq9q5vo1_400.gif

https://40.media.tumblr.com/deefee33f078b0bb4ac64b1578cbab0c/tumblr_nzqhkfAbfj1qdszopo1_540.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

http://41.media.tumblr.com/8995e17ed2df3dde7cd281f4010f746d/tumblr_nzryy4s5sG1qd39tro1_540.jpg



http://41.media.tumblr.com/5ec0f79601416d231fe04f6f6d9ffd8a/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo1_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/71140ca7e466205c4e04dc42c746f331/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo2_r1_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/e9bd6166c96a478ad1be8df5dd968979/tumblr_nzs4lqI5YO1qa94kpo3_r1_1280.jpg

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I want those Idolmaster: Cinderella Girls things.

[Charistoph]

I keep hearing that argument, but I'm not buying that a civilian oversized speeder has anywhere near the same kind of controls as a craft designed for space travel, hyperdrive, multiple weapons systems, shields, etc. Just because Incom makes both doesn't mean they work the same. It's like saying that General Motors switching their production facility to tanks means anyone who's driven a Chevrolet can now pilot a tank.

Or someone who has driven and worked on a John Deere can drive and repair a Sherman Tank. Yeup, that never happened, oh wait.

More likely Incom had the X-Wing use the T-16 setup because they new they were working outside Imperial budgets and controls and so used what they had.

[Mr Mystery]

We know the T-16 was a common enough craft, and that Incom would mostly sell to individual planets.

Using very similar controls, it's an added perk that not only is your ship durable and all-purpose, but a decent slice of your would-be civil defence pilots would be able to jump in the cockpit with minimum training, as they'd be familiar enough from their civvie flight days - and if not, you can use the relatively inexpensive T-16 for the training, minimising the collateral cost of flight school crashes.

Bloody good business model, that.

[Erik Setzer]

I still seriously doubt that someone could go from a civilian atmosphere craft to a security/military space fighter with hyperdrive, astromech, multiple weapons systems, shields, life support, etc., with no training at all.

It doesn't matter, because Luke was the main protagonist, and we can wave things off like that.

Are we next going to suggest that a pod racer has the same controls as a starfighter, so it's simple enough for a nine year old boy to go from one to the other and be very effective with it? Hey, that happened in Episode 1, so clearly there must be some explanation regarding how his pod racer controls are just a starfighter's (from another planet's defense forces) and he already knew how to pilot the starfighter because of that. Or, yeah, we're trying to claim there was all kinds of "logical" explanations for stuff in the Lucas movies and not in the new movie, even though it's not accurate.

They tried to make up a flimsy justification after the fact, when they didn't need to, because back then, we didn't need everything in a space fairy tale to be "realistic."

[Arkhan Land]

I kind of agree with a bunch of people on the T-16 nonsense but I think there is also a great deal of plot device powers at play here. But this is also the core of many many many movies involving a coming of age in a fantasy setting "Yes you! You with no experience! You're in charge! Hope this works out!"

which brings me to a clear and obvious point which can perhaps satisfy both camps enough. Yes this movie has to appeal to the older seasoned star wars canon vets, but........ this movie must also appeal to people "gasp" even younger than ourselves who ****ING LOVE the zero to hero suburbs to battlefield movie plot, last star fighter, chronicles of Narnia, you name it: as adults stuff like this can make us cringe, but for a young kid, this is the sort of **** that sets your imagination on fire and ACHEM encourages licences product purchases, which btw is truly one of the most important parts of star war's legacy in terms of how it helped change the industry

if they forwent dumb stuff like that it wouldnt really be a star wars movie.

except of course for Empire. Empire is in fact, absolutely ****ing perfect. it was one of the first things I thought about when this movie was done.

[Morgrim]

The main characters in Ep 4 were at the Rebel base for an unknown period of time before heading off to attack the Death Star; I always assumed someone gave Luke a crash course in piloting the vehicles. Possibly having been somewhat misinformed and thinking he HAD proper pilot training, just not in an X-Wing.

As for Anakin: well, he was a mechanic in a place that handled enough ship parts that his master was likely to have rather obscure pieces, as well as pod racing (where the pod racers are frequently constructed out of spare parts). Between those he probably had at least a rough idea of how the controls worked over a variety of vehicles. When he was in the space fighter during the battle of Naboo he was frantically trying to figure out how the controls worked and implied that the autopilot and R2D2 were doing a lot of the work. Hell, didn't he blow up the ship after hitting the missile button by accident? I'd call that a lot of 'kid gets lucky, possibly helped by subtle nudging by the Force'.

[eldargal]

Spoiler spoiler spoiler etc. spoiler spoiler spoiler. spoiler spoiler.

The problem isn't that there aren't reasonable explanation for how Luke suddenly went from being a farmer to an elite pilot scoring a one in a million shot, rather that people are willing to accept those explanations or not even think about the issue when it comes to Luke but the exact same situation (less extreme if anything) is somehow unjustifiable with Rey. I mean we see Luke pull of an incredible shot while being force sensitive, so we assume his force sensitivty allowed him to do it. We see Rey figure out how to do a mind trick very quickly, but instead of assuming her force sensitivity let her do it instead it becomes a huge plot hole and makes her a Mary Sue etc. etc.

Got a chance to read my copy of Rey's Survival Guide a bit, its really good I recommend it. done in the style of an in-universe text which I am a complete sl*t for.

[Tyrendian]

Spoiler spoiler spoiler etc. spoiler spoiler spoiler. spoiler spoiler.

The problem isn't that there aren't reasonable explanation for how Luke suddenly went from being a farmer to an elite pilot scoring a one in a million shot, rather that people are willing to accept those explanations or not even think about the issue when it comes to Luke but the exact same situation (less extreme if anything) is somehow unjustifiable with Rey. I mean we see Luke pull of an incredible shot while being force sensitive, so we assume his force sensitivty allowed him to do it. We see Rey figure out how to do a mind trick very quickly, but instead of assuming her force sensitivity let her do it instead it becomes a huge plot hole and makes her a Mary Sue etc. etc.

Got a chance to read my copy of Rey's Survival Guide a bit, its really good I recommend it. done in the style of an in-universe text which I am a complete sl*t for.

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well I did wonder how she "picked up" something that advanced out of nowhere... I'd assume there's a difference between trusting your instincts (Force induced as they are) or letting the Force give your hands just a little nudge to make the shot hit home, like Luke did in ep4, and Rey's deliberate, controlled and certainly impressive use of her hitherto unknown Force powers, and even without Kylo noticing. I remember an amusing scene from the old EU (Bacta War I think) where Corran Horn, who at that point did have at least a little bit of training from Luke, spectacularly fails at mind-controlling a Stormtrooper, nearly killing himself and his friends in the process. So, to me it did come as a surprise how well Rey did that with pretty much zero knowledge of her own powers - but in a good, "well if she's that good naturally how powerful will she become when fully trained! This is gonna be awesome!" way.

[eldargal]

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The thing is we don't actually know how advanced it is. Like we see Ezra try and do it in Rebels, did Kanan train him or is it something they can try on their own? We don't know. If Kanan did actively teach him then its worth noting Ezra is beginning his lessons at a much older age than younglings would have done. If Rey was a youngling at Luke's new academy (and its a popular theory but again we don't know) then she may already have had training. BUT its also worth considering that all the Jedi training we witness relates to fitness, philosophy and saber technique, as far as we know there is no Mind Tricks 101 and it certainly appears like Jedi affinities to ceertain abilities are innate and self realized. Luke knew he was a great pilot before he knew he was force sensitive etc.

The scene itself was definitely meant to show us how powerful she is though, its just people don't seem to be able to handle sudden realizations of power when its a female protagonist.:rolleyes:

[Mr Mystery]

That's assuming she's not had my training at all.

Lor San Tekka was on Jakku, and not far at all from Rey geographically speaking (BB-8 made the journey within what appears to be a few hours), and we know he has some connection to Skywalker. That I don't consider to be a coincidence...

We may not have seen him wield a Lightsaber, but that doesn't rule him out from being a force user, or even a Jedi. It's quite possible he knew Rey, and gave her training. Think Mr Miyagi and his 'wax on, wax off' training. On the surface it's pointless and unrelated, but when shown in context, it was undoubtedly effective.

Now, here's an outside thought.....

What if it's Rey that's meant to bring balance to The Force?

Consider this....neither Sith nor Jedi could ever bring balance to The Force, as they were two extremes of Force usage. Their training regimens were about embracing one, and ignoring the other. During their heyday, it would be very unusual for a Force Senstivie individual not to be picked up for training by one or the other.

But Rey? So far as we currently know, her training was either non-existent, or interrupted (if we go with the theory of Rey having been trained by Luke prior to Kylo ruining it all).

Time wise, I favour the 'no training'. She seems about the same age as Kylo, therefore Kylo would have done his betrayal at the tender age of five - which seems incredibly unlikely.

Therefore, I'm left with the intriguing concept that Rey's use of The Force is entirely instinctual. It was Kylo's attempted interrogation that brought it out. Most people can try to resist a Force mind probe, but few succeed. Having done so, and clearly being a clever cookie, she put two and two together, and next attempted a Jedi Mind Trick - which we can safely assume has become folklore. And sure enough, she succeeds.

[Morgrim]

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Given the way she messed it up the first few times, it certainly looked like something she'd heard about and was attempting to mimic, having decided that it couldn't possibly make things worse. She looked surprised when she managed it too.

[Charistoph]

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Given the way she messed it up the first few times, it certainly looked like something she'd heard about and was attempting to mimic, having decided that it couldn't possibly make things worse. She looked surprised when she managed it too.

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Agreed. She worked around a whole bunch of people cleaning, and gossip and old stories will occur during this time, including what the Jedi were purported to do.

[Erik Setzer]

Given the way she messed it up the first few times, it certainly looked like something she'd heard about and was attempting to mimic, having decided that it couldn't possibly make things worse. She looked surprised when she managed it too.

That's what I felt like was going on. She didn't necessarily understand how to do it, just had heard stories, and decided to try to get in touch with the Force and see if she could do that stuff.

Luke was the hero of the original movies and is now apparently a Jedi Master, but in the original trilogy all we see is some very rudimentary training in using a lightsaber to block incoming shots from Obi-Wan, then extremely basic training in lifting stuff through the power of the Force with Yoda (which didn't go spectacularly well in a lot of cases). When he comes back to Yoda, Yoda tells him he doesn't need more training. But why not? Can a Force-user just learn this stuff naturally? Probably.

I do like the idea of Rey bringing balance to the Force (though that'd probably be deviating a good bit from Lucas's original ideas... which might not be a bad thing at this point). She's not exactly emotionless while using the Force or wielding a saber or doing pretty much anything, but she isn't turning all Dark Side either like the Jedi swear will happen if you aren't an emotionless robot-like being.

Alternately, heck, Kylo/Ben might be the one to bring balance, considering he's currently teetering between the two sides, trying to go "Dark Side" because he thinks it'll make him more powerful, while constantly being called back to the "Light Side." Or maybe it's his experience with that, that allows Rey to understand how to balance the two sides properly, which can then be used to train a new line of Jedi who don't go to either extreme. (Heck, the extreme of the Jedi is what led to a lot of them going so ultra Dark Side.)

[eldargal]

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Not to mention she had just reversed a mind probe and got into Ren's head, who knows what information she picked up.

[Mr Mystery]

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Right enough.

I really, really want to know more about Rey. She's a total badass - even if she does run a bit derpy (really noticed it on my second watch). Really light on her feet, but the arms don't match the speed.

[eldargal]

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Me too heh. Well she was running on sand?:p Apparently her action figures are almost hard to find and fetching nearly twice as much as Kylo Ren on the secondary market, so much for female figures not selling.

[Mr Mystery]

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Sand, I guess - that and she would likely be bricking it scurrying about Starkiller Base - I know I would!

Yeah, I don't think I've seen her figure on the pegs recently? I'm working toward having every figure though, so will nab her as soon as I see her.

Also, surprised I've not seen many 'stop taking my hand' memes - as in, I haven't seen any....

[eldargal]

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I recommend the Black Series 6" version (an the whole toyline) if you can find it.

Everyone is too busy with Kylo Ren and Poefinn memes hehe.

[Gotthammer]

http://41.media.tumblr.com/d1d6dc3b21f9041c4fea6f87c06ea627/tumblr_nzjsh9VQw41rtqtc9o1_540.jpg

Also:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/cc38fdb463591e06dfeb704b72c3c393/tumblr_nzrn5rcmEx1r105mzo2_r1_1280.jpg

https://41.media.tumblr.com/ffb6a898fabbd723e955b8683c64b5fb/tumblr_nzrn5rcmEx1r105mzo3_r1_1280.jpg


Kylo has a cracked crystal in his lightsaber which is why it looks so ragged and unstable. And the crossguard blades are vents for the saber because the crystal is so stressed it can barely contain the power of the weapon. So basically it’s a crudely assembled saber with modern components that mirrors an ancient design.


let’s be real kylo ren probably tried to make a black lightsaber and he probably cried when it didn’t work




If you were a Jedi, what color would your lightsaber be?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/169a670eb7758fb30da5114ccdf2cc62/tumblr_nznyciFQoI1tlco9yo3_r1_250.gif


http://45.media.tumblr.com/a10283109e22156be45b6d7b7c2ef4f0/tumblr_nzyh8tl8aa1roi2doo1_250.gif http://49.media.tumblr.com/709fa56674f869540676fb141cc37005/tumblr_nzyh8tl8aa1roi2doo2_250.gif

http://49.media.tumblr.com/25875e878d298960ea448b83f24d8384/tumblr_nzyh8tl8aa1roi2doo3_250.gif http://45.media.tumblr.com/d87083ddf859fb98d18c7eaa907db7e8/tumblr_nzyh8tl8aa1roi2doo4_250.gif


And so they heard that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbADefUwEFk) And that made it into this comic book. So it’s the first time, you know, me figuring out my character’s back story suddenly becomes a comic book, becomes canon.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/9bf9fa0cc620daba31f2629172e01165/tumblr_nzs55lb3qI1qc1wjwo2_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/8d807d746365830085d1a639eee3b468/tumblr_nzs55lb3qI1qc1wjwo1_1280.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

Nah, I like my vintage straight limbed action :)

[eldargal]

Oh Kylo, lol.

[Gotthammer]

Yup :p

Related to running on sand:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/867a8ff8a96df8a3d465fc3da41c1ff1/tumblr_nzq12jMO441qla0vqo1_540.png

http://41.media.tumblr.com/d4f4a621f6b7dc12dcfd24b821c3b14d/tumblr_nzq12jMO441qla0vqo2_500.png

[eldargal]

Banish him to the nerd zone!

[Mr Mystery]

Such a killjoy!

Bad Neil, dirty Neil. In your locker, on your rug!

[Mud Duck]

Yup :p

Related to running on sand:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/867a8ff8a96df8a3d465fc3da41c1ff1/tumblr_nzq12jMO441qla0vqo1_540.png

http://41.media.tumblr.com/d4f4a621f6b7dc12dcfd24b821c3b14d/tumblr_nzq12jMO441qla0vqo2_500.png


BB8 is practical model there Neil, didn't look like it had too many problems to me.

[YorkNecromancer]

BB8 is practical model there Neil, didn't look like it had too many problems to me.

Once again, reality is unrealistic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic).

[Morgrim]

R2D2 would ALSO be utterly impractical in sand, and on his first trip across Tattooine's dunes would have fallen on his back and flopped like a dying fish.

I don't think Star Wars is the place to look for realistic robot locomotion. :P

[eldargal]

The motorised R2 they used for the Prequels broke down all the time because of sand, yup. I think I heard they made a special BB-8 for the sand scenes.

[odinsgrandson]

I don't see why a ball would be any worse on sand than most wheels. I just have to assume the ball has some grip to it. If I really feel like it, I mean.

You know, physics is something that Star Wars takes liberties with (you know how the space battles look like WWII dogfights? That's because the starships act like they're in an atmosphere with gravity rather than in the frictionless freefall of space).

[Erik Setzer]

Apparently her action figures are almost hard to find and fetching nearly twice as much as Kylo Ren on the secondary market, so much for female figures not selling.

Damn. I'm still trying to find one at a reasonable price, and kicking myself that I somehow didn't notice I didn't have one in the cart when I picked up my first round of figures.

At least I have a POP of her on my desk at work (with Finn, Ren, and Phasma).

[odinsgrandson]

Don't worry too much- the toy company will notice that they all sold out- they probably paid a billion dollars or more for the license to make them, so they aren't interested in leaving money on the table.

Likely, it will be just like the Frozen merchandise- shortly after the film came out, there was a massive shortage in frozen merch- but once the toy companies got their second wave of stuff in, the market was suddenly saturated with Elsa.

I expect to see the same with Rey. She'll become available again- and I'm sure they'll also expand on her line of available toys.

[eldargal]

Yup, but its more the fact they thought they didn't need to include the female protagonist of Star Wars in significant numbers in the first place. Like there are twice as many Finn an Poe figures on the market than Rey.

[Mr Mystery]

It's not as if she played a central role though, is it?


Oh no.....wait a minute.....

[Charistoph]

It's not as if she played a central role though, is it?


Oh no.....wait a minute.....

True, but you also have to consider the main target audience of such a market. As cliche and bigotted as it may sound, it is targeted at boys who usually want to have characters they identify with and not to be one of the gurrrlls.

Are there girls who would like to have Star Wars Characters they can identify with? You betcha, and far more than when I got my first Star Wars figure, both numerically and proportionally. Are there boys who would like to have girl figures to play with? Again, you betcha and far more than when I was a child watching any of the Star Wars movies during initial release years.

But they are still a small portion of the target audience, so they aren't considered as necessary to build.

Personally, after the seeing the movie, I'd rather have stormtoopers, Phasma, and Rey than Ren. I found Ren to be a spoiled goth teenager and far less intimidating than Luke, much less Vader.

[Erik Setzer]

Yup, but its more the fact they thought they didn't need to include the female protagonist of Star Wars in significant numbers in the first place. Like there are twice as many Finn an Poe figures on the market than Rey.

Well, I mean, it might not be a good sign for gender equality, but it's nice to see them celebrating the saga's first same-sex couple at least.

[Erik Setzer]

But they are still a small portion of the target audience, so they aren't considered as necessary to build.

Yeah, I seriously doubt it's a "small" portion, as the lack of available figures in stores shows. If demand is that high, then the portion of the target audience wanting something can't be considered "small."



Personally, after the seeing the movie, I'd rather have stormtoopers, Phasma, and Rey than Ren. I found Ren to be a spoiled goth teenager and far less intimidating than Luke, much less Vader.

Eh. I'm sticking with the ones I have of Ren and will gladly get more. I got the feeling he was sent off away from his folks, with just other Force-users like his uncle around, and when he dug into things he saw how powerful his grandfather was and wanted to be like him... which meant going as Dark Side as possible, even though he can't really commit to it. He can't be as dangerous as Vader, because Vader had some serious training and probably started out more powerful (heck, he was supposedly made by the Force... though Lucas did almost say that Palpatine used the Force to create Anakin, which is a bit too rapey for Star Wars). But he's still dangerous, because he's trying to prove how "dark" he can be, to try to prove to himself more than Snoke or anyone else how he *can* be like his grandfather.

To me, he's less "spoiled goth teen" and more "confused young adult torn between what he wants to be and what he feels he should be." That kind of mental breakdown might look like a spoiled brat to people, because it's hard to wrap your head around that kind of thing. I think they did it pretty well. But it probably was a bit too deep of a concept to put into a space fairy tale.

I think the logical next step is Snoke trying to teach him more on how to use his powers and quell the desire to go "Light Side" in him... but that desire's going to still be there, ready to burst out and eat at his sanity at a moment's notice (and will probably be what "redeems" him... but I seriously hope they don't do so by having him realize how good he is at the last moment and kill Snoke while getting gravely wounded in the process).

[odinsgrandson]

Yup, but its more the fact they thought they didn't need to include the female protagonist of Star Wars in significant numbers in the first place. Like there are twice as many Finn an Poe figures on the market than Rey.

Yeah, I was wondering if it went the other way (ie- they produced equal numbers, but Rey is just so much more in demand).

But I know that toy companies crunch numbers just like film producers do, and probably looked over the number of Amadala figures sold for Revenge of the Sith, and decided that Rey's sales would be comparable. Ie- they figure that their audience is primarily young boys who don't want the figures of the dolls.

If you asked them, they'd tell you that they aren't the ones who are sexist- it is all of those people buying their dolls who didn't want Amadala. (Let's forget entirely that Padme Amadala was practically non-active role with the worst lines ever written for film).

You see, in the future, they might start looking to how central the characters are instead of assuming that no one wants the girls.

[Charistoph]

Yeah, I seriously doubt it's a "small" portion, as the lack of available figures in stores shows. If demand is that high, then the portion of the target audience wanting something can't be considered "small."

If you stock 10 of one item and 20 of another, then have 2 of the first item left at the end of the day and 6 of the other, which is more popular?

I'm not saying that this is a smart decision from a production stand point to only provide the 10 in the first place, because it also ignores people like collectors who will purchase multiples of the same item just to have backups to their collections, not to mention the trends of recent years along with efforts to blur the lines of what is a "girl toy" versus a "boy toy", much less the universal interest that Star Wars has. I'm just saying that businesses are careful when they are generating stock, and tend to consider trends conservatively.

Heck, they didn't think Buzz Lightyear would take off as much as it did, and they even joked about it in Toy Story 2 when on the Toy Barn Tour.


To me, he's less "spoiled goth teen" and more "confused young adult torn between what he wants to be and what he feels he should be." That kind of mental breakdown might look like a spoiled brat to people, because it's hard to wrap your head around that kind of thing. I think they did it pretty well. But it probably was a bit too deep of a concept to put into a space fairy tale.

A "spoiled goth teen" is a "confused young adult torn between what he wants to be and what he feels he should be", though. It is how they deal with it that adds the label. As a nerd growing up in a blue-collar household I know perfectly well how that feels like, especially when your younger brother is shown favoritism because he is doing all the stuff your dad enjoyed when he was in high school, and before computers were "cool". He chose to get all dark, broody, and throw temper tantrums.

Maybe he would have been different if he was able to watch Dead Poet's Society...


I think the logical next step is Snoke trying to teach him more on how to use his powers and quell the desire to go "Light Side" in him... but that desire's going to still be there, ready to burst out and eat at his sanity at a moment's notice (and will probably be what "redeems" him... but I seriously hope they don't do so by having him realize how good he is at the last moment and kill Snoke while getting gravely wounded in the process).

Agreed on this part. It's either that or he goes full Sauron and matures in to the major threat and has to be taken down.

[odinsgrandson]

Honestly, I think the way the series might go with him is for Kylo Ren to kill Snokes once he's learned enough from him.

As for the toy shortage- these guys don't want to be conservative in their estimates- they just don't want to be wrong.

Clearly, they used the wrong reference for how many Rey figures to make- and most likely they went with sales for the last movie's leading lady- and I don't know anyone who wanted an Episode III Amadala because it is just obvious.

I mean, "Anikin, you're breaking my heart!" isn't going to sell a lot of toys to anyone.

[Erik Setzer]

Honestly, I think the way the series might go with him is for Kylo Ren to kill Snokes once he's learned enough from him.

That's a strong possibility. Vader got killed by the Emperor after Vader waited too long to just off the Emperor himself, so maybe young Ben wises up and takes a lesson from Anakin to kill your master *before* he tries to kill you. Same goes for what happened between Anakin and Obi-Wan... Obi-Wan ended up nearly killing Anakin. Which is probably a bit awkward for the young man named after the guy who nearly killed his grandfather/idol who later killed that guy in return.

You know, in retrospect, it should have been clear the kid was going to get messed up.

[Charistoph]

As for the toy shortage- these guys don't want to be conservative in their estimates- they just don't want to be wrong.

Clearly, they used the wrong reference for how many Rey figures to make- and most likely they went with sales for the last movie's leading lady- and I don't know anyone who wanted an Episode III Amadala because it is just obvious.

I mean, "Anikin, you're breaking my heart!" isn't going to sell a lot of toys to anyone.

No disagreement here. And that leads to cases. My LGS still has over a dozen Dreadfleet boxes waiting to sell. They've had them since a month after launch, at least.

Any time a new product is put out on the market it is a gamble. We can use research, case studies, stastics, blah, blah, blah, to try and figure it out, but who knows what will be Elmo and what will be pregnant Amidala until it actually hits stores?

And a product may actually be good, but just hit the market at a really bad time, like releasing a pilot during the #1 watched Super Bowl in history up to that point? Does anyone remember what came out the same time as Tickle Me Elmo, Furby, or Buzz Lightyear?

And no one wants to store flops or send them to the trash heap if they can help it.

[Mr Mystery]

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Right, back to chin wagging about the plot....

So, Rey. Mysterious Rey. But not Rey Mysterio. He's someone completely different (unless there's a very odd plot twist coming. Though I'd pay good money to see Kylo Ren get messed up in the squared circle by Rey. That would be ace. Celebrity Deathmatch, get on it. Now).

Four theories seem to be doing the rounds...

1. She's a Solo
2. She's a Skywalker
3. She's a Kenobi
4. She's a nobody

And here's the thoughts of Mr Mystery on the Mystery of the Rey that is Mysterious without being Rey Mysterio, who as covered is someone quite different....

1. Nope. I don't buy it. She's around the same age as Kylo Ren - so he'd have been no older than what, 8 or 9 when he ruined it all. Nope, not buying it. Han didn't recognise her either, Leia didn't bat an eyelid. And you know, if you've already had one sprog go wildly astray, why would you send your other one off? So for me, 0 out of 5 Mystery Points for likelihood.

2. Again, I doubt it. Age issue crops up again, and Luke knows better than anyone else what it's like to be dumped on a dustbowl with nowt to do. But then, we don't know the entire story yet, so some leniency. 1.5 Mystery Points of likelihood.

3. Hmm. It is possible I suppose. Can't of course be Ben Kenobi's daughter, as he got jobbed some 20 years before she was likely to have been born (she is 19/20, I think?). Doesn't stop her being a relative though. I'm not familiar as to whether or not Obi-Wan had siblings, and knocking about on Tatooine....one too many in Chalmun's, and whoopsadoodle you've got a kid on the way....who would be around the right age to be Rey's parent. I dunno. Bit tenuous. 2 Mystery Points out of 5 for likelihood.

4. Yep. This is the most likely of the four for me, and as one comment on a website said - 'I hope it's this. If she's a nobody, then she's me'. Force users don't need a lineage. The first of the Jedi, and those that came before would have had little to no training - they just sort of could. There's a possible red herring shown in the film. When Rey is preparing her dinner (how cool is that bread?), we see a crude doll of what resembles a Rebel Pilot in their signature bright orange jump suit, complete with helmet. It's tempting to say that proves she's a daughter of someone in the Rebellion. Except.....except Rey has been a scavenger on Jakku for years. It's just as likely something she found as a sprog, and kept - a memento of an otherwise lost childhood.

Then we have Snoke. Snoke refers to an awakening. Not much is made of this in the film, and nothing more is said, but I think we can be confident it relates to Rey, as although I'm not 100%, that scene comes just after she's peeled Kylo's mind like an onion....

As I mentioned before, could Rey be the Chosen One? Anakin was to all intents and purposes artificial, if we take Sidious' claim that his Master tricked the....no, I can't say it....but used The Force to achieve immaculate conception. That's cheating. The Chosen One? Well, Rey has a instinctual ability with The Force, and she's really quite potent at it. And all from seemingly no reason. And let's face it - that's a much cooler story!

Now, it's not necessarily true, but it's the best of the four theories above, so I'll give it a solid 3.5 Mystery Points out of 5.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm not sure if she's as "potent" yet as people seem to think. Yeah, she reversed Ren's probing. She mind controlled a Stormtrooper (ones who seem more susceptible given they're raised just to be soldiers and follow orders). And she grabbed the lightsaber when Ren was trying to get it. But what if Ren's not that good with the probing? It took a lot of effort to get from Poe that he'd given the map to a droid, but no details on the droid or where it went. And when he was trying to get the saber, he'd just been through a fight that took a good bit of energy and was wounded pretty badly. Plus that whole thing with Snoke commenting that he hadn't completed his training yet.

Maybe she's strong, but we haven't really seen evidence that she's super powerful.

Her being a nobody makes for a more interesting story, and I'd rather go with that (well, not exactly "nobody," because likely someone relatively famous dropped her off), but I'm a bit concerned they'll feel a duty to have the Skywalkers be central to the plot because the core Star Wars story is essentially about the Skywalker line. Then again, Ben/Ren fills the position of a Skywalker kid (being Leia's child and the grandson of Anakin Skywalker).

[Gotthammer]

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She's around the same age as Kylo Ren - so he'd have been no older than what, 8 or 9 when he ruined it all.

Adam Driver is 32 and Daisy Ridley is 23. The actress who played young Rey plays 5-8 which could, given Star War's tendency to use actors ages as their real or close to real ages, make it possible for her to have been five or so at Luke's new Jedi school when Kylo appeared and ruined everything in his late teens.


Also people ship Rey with Kylo. There's a rather good fic about it (http://archiveofourown.org/works/5457191):

https://40.media.tumblr.com/25b92daa1162c8f5abba415fce885bca/tumblr_o03jknr6qZ1rrmmguo1_540.jpg

[eldargal]

True, but you also have to consider the main target audience of such a market. As cliche and bigotted as it may sound, it is targeted at boys who usually want to have characters they identify with and not to be one of the gurrrlls.

Are there girls who would like to have Star Wars Characters they can identify with? You betcha, and far more than when I got my first Star Wars figure, both numerically and proportionally. Are there boys who would like to have girl figures to play with? Again, you betcha and far more than when I was a child watching any of the Star Wars movies during initial release years.

But they are still a small portion of the target audience, so they aren't considered as necessary to build.



The problem with that is that Star Wars was extremely popular with women, it is the marketing focus on boys which drove girls away needlessly and continuing that to the ridiculous extent of not making merchandise of the films main character is even more clearly ridiculous.

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That Rey-Ren fanfic is superb lol

[eldargal]

https://41.media.tumblr.com/2b1b017ca95c9139c5517d52855ec008/tumblr_o050elX0qH1ud25mto1_1280.png

[Charistoph]

The problem with that is that Star Wars was extremely popular with women, it is the marketing focus on boys which drove girls away needlessly and continuing that to the ridiculous extent of not making merchandise of the films main character is even more clearly ridiculous.

And that is a "new" thing, and not the target audience. Not saying it is right or corporate people don't need to expand their horizons, because it isn't completely right and girls/women being interested in what has been classically a boy/man field of interest has been around since before the first Bush left office. One just has to look at cosplay in conventions for the last 20 years and women have definitely been showing interest in Star Wars for an incredible amount of time.

But "war toys" are still "boy toys" in their mind, and so get built and marketed as such, and expanding the target of the market like that can be a huge risk, and one that a lot of corporations won't do. But then, that's part of the problem with corporations to begin with. They can maintain a status quo, but going beyond what got them to corporate status usually back fires due to committee.

[Alaric]

I'm not sure if she's as "potent" yet as people seem to think. Yeah, she reversed Ren's probing. She mind controlled a Stormtrooper (ones who seem more susceptible given they're raised just to be soldiers and follow orders). And she grabbed the lightsaber when Ren was trying to get it. But what if Ren's not that good with the probing? It took a lot of effort to get from Poe that he'd given the map to a droid, but no details on the droid or where it went. And when he was trying to get the saber, he'd just been through a fight that took a good bit of energy and was wounded pretty badly. Plus that whole thing with Snoke commenting that he hadn't completed his training yet.

Maybe she's strong, but we haven't really seen evidence that she's super powerful.

Her being a nobody makes for a more interesting story, and I'd rather go with that (well, not exactly "nobody," because likely someone relatively famous dropped her off), but I'm a bit concerned they'll feel a duty to have the Skywalkers be central to the plot because the core Star Wars story is essentially about the Skywalker line. Then again, Ben/Ren fills the position of a Skywalker kid (being Leia's child and the grandson of Anakin Skywalker).
Spoiler....Spoiler
Its a spoiler....its a spoiler....
So dont ruin the show!

Dude also was wounded so I doubt that helped his concentration. He was a sissy anyways, I look forward to seeing him get his butt kicked again. Worst dark jedi ever lol, couldn't take out a wiaf or a stormtrooper lol.

[odinsgrandson]

Ok, for the theory discussion:

Rey is clearly not a nobody. You don't set up a nobody with a mysterious background like she has.

She and Fin both had families once, and lost them when they were very young. The most logical explanation is that Rey's family wanted to protect her from something and left her on that planet meaning to return- then got themselves killed by whatever it was they were trying to save her from.

-The force seems to flow strongly in bloodlines- but there's only really one Force strong bloodline in all six films. Like how when Link meets a helpful character in disguise, it is always Zelda?

The idea that the force is generally strong in bloodlines seems consistent so long as we expect the Jedi want to make themselves extinct. But they wouldn't be the first religion to preach absolute celibacy for all its members and die off.

[Mr Mystery]

Just seems....a bit lazy.

We've already got the Solo sprog - does Luke really need one?

I'd really prefer her to be a genuine nobody.

And in other news....

Did anyone else get a proper nerd tingle when we saw the Resistance X-Wings closing in over Takodana? To me it was a perfect 'here comes the Cavalry, and you're in trouble now, Fascist Bully Boy!' shot. The spray kicked up behind them, the concealment of how many or indeed how few are riding to the rescue - just perfect.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Rey really reminds me of Korra.

And I like that.

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Adam Driver is 32 and Daisy Ridley is 23. The actress who played young Rey plays 5-8 which could, given Star War's tendency to use actors ages as their real or close to real ages, make it possible for her to have been five or so at Luke's new Jedi school when Kylo appeared and ruined everything in his late teens.


Also people ship Rey with Kylo. There's a rather good fic about it (http://archiveofourown.org/works/5457191):

https://40.media.tumblr.com/25b92daa1162c8f5abba415fce885bca/tumblr_o03jknr6qZ1rrmmguo1_540.jpg

Not only does the ship suck, if the whole Luke's daughter thing is true, it's also disgusting.
As an avid fan of Sword Art Online, that bit in the Fairy Dance Arc almost put me off of the whole anime. Damn incestuous b@stards.

[Morgrim]

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I think Rey is being set up as related to someone, but I don't think it's the Skywalker clan. That's taking things into 'gambit pileup' directions and overall distracting. There was clearly a battle around Jakku that I don't think has been mentioned yet, so she could be the child of someone in the Rebellion that was worried about what would happen in some climatic battle and sought to keep her out of the way but perished in the fighting. (Wedge or Biggs would be a good choice here.)

Alternatively she could be related to someone on the Empire side, who were either hedging their bets or it's a more indirect connection. I'd thought perhaps Tarkin's niece, but he died on the first Death Star. Considering the fate of the Jedi and the treatment of Force-sensitives under Palpatine and the hatred later displayed by the First Order, I could see someone loyal to the Empire still wanting to hide any relative that displayed any hint of Force-sensitivity.

Being related to a bad guy as a source of angst is something entirely fitting with the setting, after all. :p

[Erik Setzer]

Tarkin dying with the Death Star doesn't rule out a niece... but I'd think Biggs dying with the same Death Star would rule out a daughter for him (since it'd be about 34 years before TFA).

Being related to a bad guy could be interesting, as long as it's not just a reverse of Ben's story (which is really an interesting twist on that kind of plot device).

[eldargal]

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Rey was born about 11 years after the Battle of Endor, so not really possible for her to be the daughter of a bigwig in the Empire except in the sense that they might have survived the war. If the FO was nabbing kids from ex-Imperial families it is possible Finn could be related to Rae Sloane, who was the admiral at the Battle of Endor in charge after Piett died on the Executor and basically did what Palleaon did in the EU. Edit: I say possible because they both have dark skin, which isn't in my opinion a good enough reason to assume they are related but whatever.

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Also everyone needs to watch this (http://the-ice-castle.tumblr.com/post/136297714231/tbh-im-never-living-this-scene-down)

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

That ain't no Bromance. And certainly not GalPals.

[odinsgrandson]

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Just seems....a bit lazy.

We've already got the Solo sprog - does Luke really need one?

I'd really prefer her to be a genuine nobody.


More than a bit lazy, to be honest. And no, we don't need Luke to have a kid that he's abandoned. We saw how that went with Superman...

All we know that there is *something* to be known about her family. She was ditched on Janka but we don't know what. And there actually aren't very many reasonable explanations.




I think Rey is being set up as related to someone, but I don't think it's the Skywalker clan.

Well, that's the thing. If her relations explain her strong force sensitivity, then we don't have a whole lot of other options at the moment.

Could she be related to some random bit part character that isn't force sensitive? Sure, but that is a pretty boring answer to the question at hand isn't it?

I think the best explanations we have for her that don't involve her being related to the Skywalkers are:

1- She is the true Chosen One- Anakin was a false chosen one because he was created by Darth Plagus

2- She was a force creation of the Sith, through the same methods Darth Plagus used.


Now, from what I understand of J. J. Abram's work, he doesn't necessarily have an answer to the mysteries he brings up. As in Lost, the answers to the mysteries aren't as interesting as the mysteries (and sometimes contradict things that have been revealed).

More so, he has a habit of doing the first season of a show that builds up a lot of mysteries, then ditching other writers to come up with answers (which never turn out to be as interesting).

So let's hope this goes better.

[Charistoph]

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Considering most Jedi for 1000 years came from families with no immediate Jedi connections, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that Rey came from a "nobody" family. We know that she doesn't consider her family "nobody", and that could lead her down a dark path if she isn't careful. After all, her family could be as much "nobodies" as Rebels' Ezra's. Not important on a galactic scale, but moderately noteworthy on a local scale.

Of course, Luke could have had a fling before he met Yoda or became a hermit, so being a Skywalker grandchild isn't out of possibility, and I really wouldn't be hurt if Mara Jade was the mother, but Ben killed her with the rest of the Academy (disappointed, but not hurt, it's happened before).

There is just too much we do not know to nail it down. Force Awakens is a frantic race almost from the beginning with the people in the know having too little time to expound on things that is old hat for them.

[Erik Setzer]

They're almost certainly not bringing Mara Jade back.

They've entertained some stuff from the old EU, but I don't expect to see characters like MJ, Thrawn, Pellaeon, any of the Rogues added in the books, the Wraiths, Wedge's wife (did that actually last?), Soontir Fel, Ysanne Isard, a clone Emperor (or ten), etc.

[Tyrendian]

well I don't expect them to bring back the exact characters from the old EU, but someone along Mara's lines could potentially be very interesting (not necessarily for the other two movies themselves but for a new EU)

[Charistoph]

well I don't expect them to bring back the exact characters from the old EU, but someone along Mara's lines could potentially be very interesting (not necessarily for the other two movies themselves but for a new EU)

Indeed, it could just be old story that "everyone" in the galaxy knows, so it is never expounded upon in the situations they show in the movies.

[odinsgrandson]

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Considering most Jedi for 1000 years came from families with no immediate Jedi connections, I wouldn't find it hard to believe that Rey came from a "nobody" family.

But it is a mystery that's been set up very deliberately. That implies an interesting answer to the question. If we never find out what happened to her family or why she was abandoned on Janka, it is poor story telling. Same goes for uninteresting answers, or ones that just ring of pure coincidence (if she were the great-grand-niece of grand Moff Tarkin, it doesn't explain anything). For the best story telling, none of it feels like a coincidence- and that means that her origin story should explain her force sensitivity.


Now, the old jedi did know that the Force has strength in bloodlines- as Qui Gon Jin's question to Anakin's mother. But that'd make them a little stupid for requiring celibacy of their membership. The Sith should have a eugenics plan to proliferate powerful force users.

And Star Wars doesn't get full marks for consistency. Remember how Leia remember's Padme?

[Charistoph]

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But it is a mystery that's been set up very deliberately. That implies an interesting answer to the question. If we never find out what happened to her family or why she was abandoned on Janka, it is poor story telling. Same goes for uninteresting answers, or ones that just ring of pure coincidence (if she were the great-grand-niece of grand Moff Tarkin, it doesn't explain anything). For the best story telling, none of it feels like a coincidence- and that means that her origin story should explain her force sensitivity.

It has been set up deliberately, true, but that doesn't mean they are going to take it anywhere if it has nothing to do with future stories. If it's not planned to be revealed in the future movies, we'll no doubt have it gone over in books.


Now, the old jedi did know that the Force has strength in bloodlines- as Qui Gon Jin's question to Anakin's mother. But that'd make them a little stupid for requiring celibacy of their membership. The Sith should have a eugenics plan to proliferate powerful force users.

Indeed. The Jedi feared attachments and what it would lead to. In order to procreate effectively, one would have to do it emotionlessly and be able it ignore any product of such a union. That this deliberately weakened the ability for Force users to grow in numbers.

Sith, however, would rejoice in the passions such relationships bring with them, however, because of the internal strife they are prone to, along with the Rule of Two, any eugenics program would die rather quickly.

Of course, Sidius deliberately creating Anakin is one way of fulfilling both aspects, but that is pure theory and conjecture.


And Star Wars doesn't get full marks for consistency. Remember how Leia remember's Padme?

No, I don't. I remember how she remembers her mother who was sad, and that was before she found out that Luke was her brother. That easily could have been Bail's wife, as there was no in movie definition as to when SHE died. We just know she was alive when Bail Organa accepted her, and that's it. Luke not knowing the story of Padme would then assume that she was HIS mother as well.

[Gotthammer]

http://41.media.tumblr.com/643ea0fdc6d8e5fc2fdfad628500d316/tumblr_o06eo4ZumK1r6pr7bo1_500.jpg


Guys. GUYS. Can we talk about how Poe’s idol CANONICALLY is Leia? Like, I think Poe has too much self-awareness as an irreverent ****head to ever scribble Mr. General Leia Organa all over his schoolbooks but I will bet you every last cent I have that there was a time in Poe’s adolescence when he had these super-intense heroic fantasies about taking down an entire fleet of Star Destroyers at Leia’s command and, like, dying in her arms or something.

Of course by the time TFA rolls around, he has long let go of the dream of General Organa touching his hair and telling him that was the best Skywalker Swoop she’d ever seen – because lbr that’s not a fantasy that will survive Leia’s withering stare – but he was probably 200% more thrilled than he ought to be at being sent on a mission to Jakku.

… I really want a fic of Poe getting into fights as a kid over arguments on who was the best Rebel Alliance hero with his father sighing in the background and going, well I guess falling for badass women runs in the family.

(Also at a meta level I just find it really awesome that Poe Dameron as a character could’ve easily been conceptualised as idolising Wedge Antilles or Luke Skywalker, but nope, it’s Leia Organa.)

[eldargal]

Poe also follows in his mothers footsteps, and sat in the cockpit of her A-Wing with her growing up while she flew about Yavin. Even how the Visual Dictionary paragraph is phrased puts the focus on Shara instead of Kes, she is the Rebel pilot while he is 'also' in the Rebel military. It is so rare to get a character like Poe following his mother and idolising a woman as his hero.

[eldargal]

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https://38.media.tumblr.com/ea8cc985388c6bfadd3923c633c07c4e/tumblr_inline_o08ipbuUrb1si9xcs_500.gif
From Rey's vision, looks like Kylo Ren saving her during the Jedi massacre?

[Morgrim]

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That's the bit that made me think her vision could have been of the future, not the past. Although not sure why he'd be saving her. Could be a change of heart, could be the slightly more sinister fact that she's the first person he seems to have come across that he thinks could become his apprentice (at least that's how I interpreted the scene where he hamfistedly suggests he's the only one that could teach her).

[Gotthammer]

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In the credits someone is listed as a "Knight of Ren" and Snoke says something about Kylo's name being to honour his achievements or somesuch so massacre was on planet of Ren and the Knights of Ren were like the official guards of the Jedi students perhaps?

I'm thinking this as I'm not 100% convinced the dude Kylo shanks was aiming to kill Rey but just in combat and it's a dramatic angle.

[eldargal]

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Yup, and Force visions are notoriously hard to interpret so I'm not reading too much into them to be honest. I mean we see Young Rey in visions later, so why is Current Rey in the action like that? Is she actually being targeted or is it the Force being dramatic and putting her in a place where she gets a good view of the action lol.

- - - Updated - - -


In the credits someone is listed as a "Knight of Ren" and Snoke says something about Kylo's name being to honour his achievements or somesuch so massacre was on planet of Ren and the Knights of Ren were like the official guards of the Jedi students perhaps?

I'm thinking this as I'm not 100% convinced the dude Kylo shanks was aiming to kill Rey but just in combat and it's a dramatic angle.

Yup me too, especially since we see Young Rey in the visions later, why would she take her own place at another time? I mean its possible but no way we can say for certain what is going on.

[odinsgrandson]

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No, I don't. I remember how she remembers her mother who was sad, and that was before she found out that Luke was her brother. That easily could have been Bail's wife...

Eh, It is clearly a case of retroactive continuity with a convoluted fan theories (http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/10931/how-does-leia-have-memories-of-her-mother).

But I was just throwing one out. There are a lot of instances where the prequel trilogy is not consistent with the portrayal in the original films. Just take any place where Uncle Owen and aunt Beru or Obiwan talk about Anakin, or when Yoda makes excuses about training Luke with the words "He is too old" and is obviously just making an excuse. All of those instances at least imply different details to the story George decided to tell, and all of it requires some pretty convoluted explaining to get around.

Or we can go with some of the strange viewpoints characters have that don't match their reallity- like how Obi-wan believes that only Sith see things in absolutes (have you met any of George Lucus' characters?) and must be destroyed because of this (have you considered how you see things, dude?).

Or the very existence of midichlorians.

Or that the power to destroy a planet is 'insignificant' compared to the power of the force. But we still spent most of our military budget on destroying planets (three times now). How about Vader actually shows us what he's talking about- he's well established as the more force sensitive guy ever. Do something that makes destroying a populated planet "insignificant."

Actually, my favorite is when Luke is told that he must not go and fight Vader, because he is not a Jedi yet. He promises to return and complete his training, and when he comes back, Yoda confesses that his training is pretty much complete, and the thing he needs to do to become a Jedi is to fight Vader.

I know a lot of people have come up with some pretty convoluted explanations for how he makes an off-screen habit of going back to Degobah, and leaving each time with Yoda claiming that he hasn't finished yet. To me, that might be even sillier than what we see on screen.

Now, in a universe in which evolution allows for giant worms to sit out in the vast openness of space hoping for something to crawl into their asteroid for a meal- these little inconsistencies just seem like nit picks.

We could spend a long time coming up with some really convoluted explanations, of course. What else are fans for?

[odinsgrandson]

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I'm thinking this as I'm not 100% convinced the dude Kylo shanks was aiming to kill Rey but just in combat and it's a dramatic angle.

It does look probable that he is aiming at her. There might be a lot more to happen, and this scene might not have happened to Rey at all, right? There's a lot that hasn't been revealed for sure.

[Mr Mystery]

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https://38.media.tumblr.com/ea8cc985388c6bfadd3923c633c07c4e/tumblr_inline_o08ipbuUrb1si9xcs_500.gif
From Rey's vision, looks like Kylo Ren saving her during the Jedi massacre?

I dunno.

Whoever Kylo stabs up isn't wielding a Lightsaber.

And I'd wager the victim is in fact this chap....

http://www.mwctoys.com/images2/review_zuvio_1.jpg

[eldargal]

Yup lot of people thought that for a bit, but Pablo Hidalgo confirmed on twitter it isn't Zuvio (the alien action figure character).

[Gotthammer]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/c31d346c70f7f1fa96c6613fa5ad85b7/tumblr_o091tgBwFQ1smzzfro2_r1_540.png

https://41.media.tumblr.com/a6ca715ad6696adb374a669635308e68/tumblr_o091tgBwFQ1smzzfro3_r1_540.png

https://36.media.tumblr.com/d57ba0ab71c43af8e54cd0cd0c6d9951/tumblr_o091tgBwFQ1smzzfro1_r2_540.png

https://40.media.tumblr.com/664ff04583a1135184228cd1adf4f8a7/tumblr_o091tgBwFQ1smzzfro4_r1_540.png

https://40.media.tumblr.com/68a881fd2fb37886fbdef4ecfcae25f7/tumblr_o091tgBwFQ1smzzfro5_r1_540.png

[eldargal]

Reysma ship ftw.;p

[Morgrim]

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https://45.media.tumblr.com/1f8479fdde3c748380bd6b701d8e0808/tumblr_nzntsxi9Sg1rlheeoo2_r1_540.gif
People have pointed out that this stormtrooper takes Finn's actions very personally. Apparently that's explained! It's in the novel Before the Awakening by Greg Rucka, which is about the stormtroopers and how they're raised.

Nerdgerhl (http://nerdgerhl.tumblr.com/post/136227153099/fatcr0w-dorianthewellendowed-fatcr0w)


Greg Rucka’s Star Wars novel Before the Awakening is A) Quite good and B) Explains much about Finn’s stormtrooper training and social circle leading up to the movie.

In a nutshell:


Finn was trained in a squad of four boys: Him (FN-2187), Nines, Zero and Slip.
Nines and Zero have nicknames based on their alphanumerical designations (Zero’s is FN-2000, likely used by the ficcer mentioned above, Nines ended in 9s, etc.). Slip was called slip because he was a ****up.
Turns out, most troopers have nicknames
Why does FN-2187 not have a nickname? Because nobody really likes him. An older trooper tells him straight to his face: he’s an outsider. It just happens to some troopers.
Why is this extra tragic? Is it because Finn’s a ****ty trooper? NO. He’s actually top of his little trooper class. He’s the ****ing bomb, with a blaster, with tactics, with hand-to-hand weapons. Phasma’s got extremely high expectations for him. (what a ****in mary sue amirite)
So why is this actually extra tragic? What’s Phasma’s one problem with him? Finn cares too much. He cares about keeping his squad alive.
He cares about going back for his friends more than the mission objective SOUND FAMILIAR?
So Phasma tells him to stop coddling Slip or face consequences. He does.


And then: the skirmish on Jakku. A trooper dies and Finn loses his final shred of faith in the First Order. Who is that trooper? PROBABLY SLIP, IT REALLY SEEMS LIKE. Basically Finn’s brother, even if he never really fit in with his squad.

And then: the first thing Poe does is give him a nickname based on his alphanumerical designation JUST LIKE HIS TROOPER FAMILY, NINES AND ZERO AND SLIP, WHO NEVER LIKED HIM ENOUGH TO GIVE HIM ONE.

IN CONCLUSION the trooper in the gifset above who recognizes Finn on sight (and who has been meme-nicknamed TR-8R) is likely Zero or Nines.

IN CONCLUSION finn my bby D:

[Erik Setzer]

That actually makes a lot of sense...

[YorkNecromancer]

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It's been pointed out in other places, but the Stormtrooper with the electro-tonfa?

Should've been Phasma.

She does nothing in the film except for capitulate to Solo and Finn far too easily to come off like a badass. How hard would it have been to give her that fight? She'd've looked cool, it would further have established that she takes Finn's defection personally, and the feud between the two characters gets built up further. Then, when they get her on Starkiller Base, he steals her electro-tonfa when she's not looking, giving her a reason to give in without a fight - she believes he's got a lightsabre, and knows she can't fight him without her anti-sabre weaponry, thus making her capitulation a sign of teeth-gritted resentment, rather than weakness. It also sells the sabre as a significant, terrifying weapon - which it is in the right hands. Everybody wins.

'If it wasn't for that lightsabre of yours, you'd be dead now'.

Instead, we get this jabroni Stormtrooper show up that no-one's invested in, he makes Finn look like a punk, and there's no feud because the Stormtrooper's completely faceless. Just a no-name Jabroni. Giving him a fully-developed backstory in the expanded media just makes me angry, because the film is all that should matter.

It's just wrestling booking: the heel has to come off stronger than the face. They should've build up the angle slowly, to make the audience salivate for the main event which they can only see at PPV (read: in later films). As it is, he's already beaten her and with no effort, so what emotional investment do I have in seeing them fight again? I know he can beat her. Now the writers have to set it up all over again, only now it's an uphill struggle because Phasma already tapped out, so we know Finn can beat her; there's less emotion, because he's not got to work as hard.

Plus, if they pull a 'she was acting under orders as part of a Machiavellian plan' card, it just makes the villains look dumb. What, they whole thing was an INSANELY complex scheme to get Kylo Ren to kill his dad? At the cost of ALL THE FIRST ORDER'S MONEY WHEN STARKILLER BASE GOES DOWN?

No, she tapped out too soon, which means she's not a credible threat any more, end of story.

Don't get me wrong, I did enjoy the film overall. It's just Phasma was poorly booked through the whole film. If Kylo Ren is your monster heel, your Brock Lesnar, she should've been the Undertaker - this fearsome, implacable beast. But she wasn't. She was jobbed out to no meaningful effect, and the women who plays Brienne of Tarth deserved much, much better.

[Tyrendian]

pretty much exactly what I was thinking during the movie...

[Lexington]

There are a lot of instances where the prequel trilogy is not consistent with the portrayal in the original films.
One of the many reasons that it's best to just ignore the prequels, something I'm very glad this movie more or less did. Besides being awful and contradictory, they make no sense, narratively-speaking, with the originals. Why spend two movies leading up to the huge revelation at the end of Empire when you've spent six or seven hours of screen-time giving the audience that same information? It's silly.


It's been pointed out in other places, but the Stormtrooper with the electro-tonfa?

Should've been Phasma.
Oh my goodness, yes.

[Mud Duck]

I don't know York, yes she was underused, but knowing when to fight and 'tap out' is really a good bad guy thing. And when the good guys have a blaster up under your chin, well.....

"Next time Gadget! Next Time!" ;)

[Arkhan Land]

I'm sure well get a good deal on her next in the next movie

then again maybe shes just getting maul-ed

[Morgrim]

The prequels are not terrible. They're not worthless, they're not pointless, and it pissed me off when people say they are. They're just not the "hero's journey" that the first 3 Star Wars films are, that the audience expected. They're a love story intertwined with the tale of someone who is downtrodden and tries so hard and no matter WHAT he does, no matter how hard he tries, he's always told he's not enough. He's not allowed to be passionate. He's not allowed to fix things. He's told the status quo is God, and trying to change that is evil, until the pain finally pushes him over the edge and into the arms of the one person that's told him he has worth. And it's an abusive relationship between Anakin and Palpatine, it's one Palpatine has groomed him for for years, but it's really not at all surprising.

It's also not surprising that a lot of women can empathise with characters in the prequel trilogy more than the original trilogy.

This explains it better than I can (http://batsutousai.tumblr.com/post/136207088419/a-list-of-unpopular-opinions-about-star-wars)




So my entire ****ing life, I hid my love for the prequels because I knew aggressive fanboys would shove their parrot-opinions down my throat if I said something simple like, “I really relate to Anakin.” In fact, I posted this on Facebook a couple days ago, and I immediately received an all-caps comment that said, simply, “THE PREQUELS ARE UNWATCHABLE.” Not the polite, “I disliked them and I’d be interested in discussing it with you,” but a blanket face-slap fact. You are wrong for your opinion. I am right. Shut the **** up.

Here’s another reason I think people (men) hate the prequels:

Anakin’s plight wherein he is constantly silenced, dismissed, and forced into obedience until he snaps is more relatable to a teen girl’s life than a boy’s. What I’m saying is: the prequels–launched in plot by a teen girl queen, not a princess needing rescued–are for girls. And that alone is why nobody likes them: it’s a girl’s story.

[...]

It’s ****ed up. Because Luke’s plight is parallel but different. Luke is privileged by his own innate perfection. He possesses no internal struggle. From the death of his family onward, he is imbued with purpose and direction, and he actively (as opposed to Anakin’s passivity forced into action) seeks out his own fate. Even when he says, “Don’t underestimate my powers,” to Jabba, he says it with confidence, but when Anakin tells Obi-Wan the same shortly before his downfall, it’s an, “Oh, honey,” moment. Anakin, by contrast, is seen as arrogant in his self-assurance. He did everything everyone told him to do, and he failed.

All six films have ample flaws. The original series is rife with pacing issues. Return of the Jedi is so campy it might as well be a children’s cartoon. The Phantom Menace has more plot holes than Doctor Who. The prequels’ dialogue needs some serious editing.

But I’m finally going to say it, loud and ****ing clear, and there’s no going back:

I like the Star Wars prequels better than the original series.


In my opinion Revenge of the Sith is the best film out of the seven so far, but when I've said that I have gotten death threats from people who claim the prequels are terrible. So hearing people on BoLS say they've got no value is unpleasant.

[Gotthammer]

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It's worth noting that Phasma was added to the movie very late in production for such a significant role, so likely contributes to her lack of involvement to the overall story.



luke skywalker:my apprentice just turned to the dark side what would yoda or obi-wan do
luke skywalker:
luke skywalker:*pulls on hawaiian shirt and shades*
luke skywalker:exile

http://45.media.tumblr.com/35eecb3b41e5738747734dde42e1f63e/tumblr_o04xau9tHo1v39kj4o1_540.gif

http://49.media.tumblr.com/6f8d5412385c0a4cc8e1ad1c513253df/tumblr_o04xau9tHo1v39kj4o2_540.gif

http://31.media.tumblr.com/41e617e76e614b3bcda4e889cd93fca8/tumblr_inline_o08iocZUhL1sn0aq3_500.gif



ok i will bet real money on the fact that rey has never seen a girl even close to her age until she goes to the resistance base and there are all these cute lady pilots and soldiers and scientists and she’s just like…

http://40.media.tumblr.com/57e65873099c197f1fcdfdd347dce0e2/tumblr_o082a6blrl1uuml8xo1_540.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/e51edebc462cc51f825ddb04e93d4f35/tumblr_o082a6blrl1uuml8xo2_540.png

http://36.media.tumblr.com/f435efdac546945d4780a156710fb0df/tumblr_o082a6blrl1uuml8xo4_540.png

[eldargal]

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Nice.:p

I'd love if they make Rey, Poe and Finn all canonically gay. Like it would just be such wonderful comeuppance for all teh homophobic idiots out there whining about the number of gay characters in the books and comics steadily increasing. Make Sabine gay. Make Hera bisexual. Make Rey, Finn and Poe all gay. Make Maz the only new straight character in the trilogy.

[Gotthammer]

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Make Maz the only new straight character in the trilogy.

Chewie's really a woman, it's just that everyone's really bad at wookieese so has been getting her pronouns wrong this whole time ;)

Though recently:

https://40.media.tumblr.com/e8d72abc322fe71b78b81d68999ebae8/tumblr_o08ctxP6em1u67z6yo1_540.jpg




Daisy Ridley looks like the love child of Keira Knightley and Hayley Atwell

http://36.media.tumblr.com/fc887cb83c97f87d0d3304d27a06f0a8/tumblr_inline_nzv5n5fhJh1r4540s_500.jpg

[Arkhan Land]

The prequels are not terrible. They're not worthless, they're not pointless, and it pissed me off when people say they are. They're just not the "hero's journey" that the first 3 Star Wars films are, that the audience expected. They're a love story intertwined with the tale of someone who is downtrodden and tries so hard and no matter WHAT he does, no matter how hard he tries, he's always told he's not enough. He's not allowed to be passionate. He's not allowed to fix things. He's told the status quo is God, and trying to change that is evil, until the pain finally pushes him over the edge and into the arms of the one person that's told him he has worth. And it's an abusive relationship between Anakin and Palpatine, it's one Palpatine has groomed him for for years, but it's really not at all surprising.

It's also not surprising that a lot of women can empathise with characters in the prequel trilogy more than the original trilogy.

This explains it better than I can (http://batsutousai.tumblr.com/post/136207088419/a-list-of-unpopular-opinions-about-star-wars)



In my opinion Revenge of the Sith is the best film out of the seven so far, but when I've said that I have gotten death threats from people who claim the prequels are terrible. So hearing people on BoLS say they've got no value is unpleasant.

Peoples reasons for disliking the prequels are legitimate but I think overstated. The films themselves are not bad, they are enjoyable from a star wars perspective, but...

I think peoples general disdain with them is that even adjusted for inflation they cost twice as much as any star wars movie ever made before and were not in fact, twice as good. Theoretically speaking we were supposed to have an amazing all-star cast, and we did, just didnt help the other problems.
The first three prequels arent bad, but it feels like theres more potential there. everytime I've watched them again the only thing that gets me is how bad some of the script-work is, sadly unlike the OG star wars maybe they really clamped down on any good improv or cast input.

Then... theres the CGI thing. Star Wars as a movie has been for me and most movie nerds I know a hallmark of a biog **** You to CGI or the need for it, looking back and watching the OG films theres very little that feels missing in practical effects. Empire/Jedi have a few scenes that were done in a sort of inbetween process that uses some didigital technology but ultimately still relies on analog input for images. Then came the 90s, we had a ****ty re-release with added CGI updates, some of which were fine, but others of which were real dumb. The Han+Jabba scene that we\as re-added fell really really flat I rememeber people yelling "What the **** is this" at the screen when I saw it in theatres... same for the new jabbas palace scene, or that dumbass beak they put on the sarlac. for many people the CGI-ness was a big deteriorating factor that I think they weren't over at the time the prequels came out. They took away our original prints, banned them from being shown where still possessed (some real doozy of public Policy right there, some real memorable film festival ruining moments in the news around that time of C&Ds followed by lucas film sending you an updated copy of Hope/EMP/Jedi for free to use)

but yeah overall I think people were still upset with Lucas for this, it had literally only been two years since the man pooped all over the original series, when it turned out the whole new movie was CGI the haters piled it on out of spite.


as an aside, I personally enjoy the soundtracks from them. John Williams just keeps pouring in Stravinsky and
Wagner juice into a gigantic black witch cauldron of soundtrack

I think its wrong to think they have no value, but i think its equally confusing to somehow think its the best. I personally think the best two are the OG and Empire cause they represent Lucas' best work from when he was younger and did the most on a tiny tiny tiny *** budget, I personally think most of the films are about of equal quality with the first three having a bettter Cast/Cast Dynamic and simply having done more with less in terms of cast, budget, presentation and composition

[Charistoph]

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Chewie's really a woman, it's just that everyone's really bad at wookieese so has been getting her pronouns wrong this whole time ;)

Or maybe Wookie males are brooding inseminators and females have ovipositers.

David Weber and John Ringo make a joke about that in the "Empire of Man" series starting with March Upcountry. The gender they tag as "male" have really large members, so they tag them as "male" in their translaters. They only later find out that instead of being used to deposit sperm, they deposit eggs in the males which is why they are larger.

[odinsgrandson]

The prequels are not terrible. They're not worthless, they're not pointless, and it pissed me off when people say they are. They're just not the "hero's journey" that the first 3 Star Wars films are, that the audience expected.They're a love story intertwined with the tale of someone who is downtrodden and tries so hard and no matter WHAT he does, no matter how hard he tries, he's always told he's not enough...

How about this- you and I disagree, but I'd like to discuss this with you in a kind manner, and not insult you personally in any way.

With your description, I kind of wish I had seen the movies as you did. To be fair, I liked Revenge- way more than the other two prequels at the very least, and I'm sure that setting my expectations low helped that along.

But I felt that in order to successfully tell the story you're talking about, a lot of subtlety would be required- and some very carefully handled motivations. And that is the thing that is most lacking.

Also- I feel that most of the criticisms that people bring forward are the wrong ones anyway- people know that they didn't like the movie, but I don't think that they analyze it well enough to know why. They focus on how much they hate Jar Jar Binks and medichlorians instead.

Now, I think the real trouble with the prequels is three fold:

1- George Lucas is bad with people. He can't write them, he can't direct them, and he can't motivate them.

Harrison Ford complained about the dialogue he was handed (and it is noticeably better in Empire and Jedi when George isn't writing it). All of the dialogue is meant to be stated with a deadly seriousness that just comes off as campy. Compare it against very good dialogue (Firefly makes a good an example) no one ever says exactly what they mean without loads of sub text.

And the story George was telling needed more subtlety and depth than the original trilogy. Leia and Han's relationship didn't really get stressed like Padme and Anakin- but Leia and Han feel more real and deep to me (mostly they had great chemistry- that can go a long way. And in Empire, they don't always say exactly what they mean).

George Lucas has a love for the technology that really gets in the way of his directing. He experimented with cutting the footage apart so that he could use different takes of each character in the same scene. This seemed like it might have been a good idea, but it may have contributed to the lack of screen chemistry on display (these actors aren't actually responding to one another's performances).

And the talent of the actors is, if anything, much higher than it was the first time around (Ewan McGregor, Liam Neesan and Natalie Portman have all been fantastic in other films). There's simply no excuse.

2- They don't really add- by that I mean that they do not surprise us or tell a much better story than Obi-wan did in the originals.

The reason for doing prequels is so that you can show us interesting things that we didn't get when we has the story summed up by characters in the present. The story we are watching needs to significantly improve on the story we imagined when the characters talked about it.

Star Wars prequels are far from the only ones that offend in this way, but it is still a major flaw. I admit I was surprised by all of the 'chosen one' stuff (and I really loved the parts about Darth Plagus that turned that on its head). But it really didn't do enough that is better than the minimum that we expected.

3- This isn't the '70s anymore, and the audience has grown up.

Films contemporaneous to Star Wars mostly kept an emotional distance from their characters, and the special effects were really terrible.

Star Wars broke through that and delivered what has become the standard formula for blockbusters (much of it via heroic journey). Since then, we've seen it done again and again. We need something a little more to hold our attention- much less love.


- As for the originals- I saw them first when I was very young- which helps them be cool in my eyes. I can analyze them critically, and I do find that they come up shallow.

But the stage chemistry between the lead actors is really fantastic to see- each moment in which Luke, Leia and Han are all on screen together is a joy. That helps us to really relate to the characters.

Also- the prequels aren't as bad as people believe them to be. But they don't stand up to the love people have for the original trilogy- and a lot of those feelings are undeserved.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Going back to watch the originals is like going back to play Half Life. You're looking at something that has since had every likable aspect of it repeatedly stolen and tweaked until it's utterly surpassed in almost every way. It established a lot of the rules, but the problem with that is that it then becomes indistinguishable, then it falls behind.

My personal issues with the trilogy boil down to two things:
- Stilted dialogue,
- Overuse of CGI while it was in its infancy,

Bear in mind that Attack of the Clones was released the same year we got The Two Towers. The difference in approach really shows between those two movies when you look at the environments, and it's the realisation of that which has caused a resurgence of practical effects in movies these days. They just hold up way better. Compare Helm's Deep to any battle in AotC, or the environment of Edoras to other environments. Heck, compare Gollum to any of the CGI creations in AotC.

Again, the premise had some high points, and I liked Revenge of the Sith, but character motivation was, well...difficult to believe. There are better ways it could've been handled.

[Charistoph]

Going back to watch the originals is like going back to play Half Life. You're looking at something that has since had every likable aspect of it repeatedly stolen and tweaked until it's utterly surpassed in almost every way. It established a lot of the rules, but the problem with that is that it then becomes indistinguishable, then it falls behind.

My personal issues with the trilogy boil down to two things:
- Stilted dialogue,
- Overuse of CGI while it was in its infancy,

Bear in mind that Attack of the Clones was released the same year we got The Two Towers. The difference in approach really shows between those two movies when you look at the environments, and it's the realisation of that which has caused a resurgence of practical effects in movies these days. They just hold up way better. Compare Helm's Deep to any battle in AotC, or the environment of Edoras to other environments. Heck, compare Gollum to any of the CGI creations in AotC.

Again, the premise had some high points, and I liked Revenge of the Sith, but character motivation was, well...difficult to believe. There are better ways it could've been handled.

Agreed, mostly. The best parts of the Prequels were when everyone just shut up and acted (I don't count Padme crying as acting, though). The best lightsaber fight in all 7 movies was in Revenge of the Sith, in my opinion. Both Ewan and Hayden didn't have to rely on bad scripts and allowed their actions to show their emotions throughout the entire fight while also showing an incredible amount of skill.

Dialogue-wise, it was almost like it was a High School Fanfic supported by a huge budget. Even how the politics and economics were worked seemed to have an adolescent point of view (no wonder Palpatine was able to lead them along so easily). And let's just say that the Prequels problems started with the Gungan, and it can all be tied to what he was and how George pushed him in to being.

[Lexington]

They don't really add- by that I mean that they do not surprise us or tell a much better story than Obi-wan did in the originals.
Aaron Diaz did a good job of covering this already (http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/60034251498/the-star-wars-prequels-some-things-are-better), but I don't think it's a story that could be told well. Even if one ignores the layers of production issues, the prequels aren't really a story so much as a backstory for the original movies, and one that undermines almost all of their narrative hooks. Both A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back build up to the latter's climax (retroactively in ANH's case, but still), that great granddaddy of sci-fi plot twists: "No, I am your father." If the audience is in on the gag from the beginning, it doesn't make any sense for the originals to have been told this way.

They didn't need to work this way - nothing mandated that Episodes 1 - 3 had to even include Anakin Skywalker, much less focus intensely on his rise and fall. Really, the originals suggest that they shouldn't have at all. Why Lucas decided that they'd be what they are is beyond me, but the premise would make the movies weird and awkward even if they'd been executed with minimal competence.

[odinsgrandson]

Aaron Diaz did a good job of covering this already (http://starwars1999.tumblr.com/post/60034251498/the-star-wars-prequels-some-things-are-better), but I don't think it's a story that could be told well...

Ok, I'll be honest. I've derived more hours of entertainment from re-writing Star Wars than I ever would have had from a good prequel trilogy.

There was a rumor that Lucas was told by his director friends that he should re-think the arcs of his three films. I don't know if that's true (it probably isn't). If it is, they told him that film one he should be evil, film two should feature him as evil the whole time, and there shouldn't be a third film at all.

Now, George had three movies to make, and here's how you make Anakin's arc over the course of three films. Note that it is very important that these be prequel films- their reliance on the audience knowing the end from the start will be helpful, and add meaning rather than detract. As such, they should be watched after the original three movies.

1- First film can establish Anakin. Use the adult actor- there's no reason to make him a ten year old, as it adds nothing but absurdity and poor acting from your protagonist. This would be a good place for his romantic arc.

2- The second film should feature his turn to Darth Vader at its climax. He should see the practicality of being part of the Sith, and should not believe himself to be a villain. Lucas isn't well known for his villains that don't believe that they're villains, but that's the best way for this to work. He should believe himself to be a hero, just not blinded by the traditions of the Jedi. He is a passionate warrior, and he is stronger because of it, not weaker.

3- The third film should feature his complete fall. Anakin should get darker and darker as the film goes on, and transfer from being the hero of his own story into the psycho who strangles his subordinates. This would really be the most heart breaking film of the series if it is pulled off quite well.

Also- it would help if we reference Return of the Jedi in how Anakin falls.


That way, we end up with the sort of guy who calls out "But you do not know the power of the Dark Side."


Also- the Old Republic must transform into the Empire. I actually thought that one was one of the better parts of the prequels, but I think we could do better. Essentially, start out with the Federation as the bad guys, but in the end, we should realize that they have a point (like- if Count Dooku hadn't been a Sith- instead, he had left the Jedi because he wanted to fight against the Sith run Republic). Have more opposition to Palpatine, and more chances for the Republic to not fail- the failure becomes so much more meaningful that way.

[Morgrim]

I guess I'm odd because I like the Gungans. Or perhaps I should clarify that while I too find Jar-Jar irritating in Phantom Menace I liked the world building around the Gungans. Their appearance, their interactions with the humans on Naboo, their organic underwater cities, their way of combining tamed animals with high-tech shielding and simple slings with energy balls... all of that was brilliant! It's a wonderful visual feast.

...and then they go and ruin it by giving them the most irritating speech they could find. Argh. So much promise snuffed out.


Actually, that may be why I like the prequels. They show more depth and promise and appealing visuals. I remember being told how great A New Hope was and watching it (this was after seeing Ep I and II) and thinking "Is that it? Where are the cool bits everyone talks about? It's all filmed in bland metal corridors."

Vader was cool, but the originals never really felt like they had enough scope. It was all tell, not show, and felt like a small backwater rather than a galaxy defining struggle. It probably did not help that Luke had the personality of a dishcloth.

EDIT: I should clarify that bits of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were much more interesting, especially the interactions between Luke and Vader. But A New Hope is still in the bottom two movies of the series for me.

[Arkhan Land]

A new hope is what it is, some amazing actors, some amazing action, but altogether it was sort of a mixture of all of the tiny bits of things that made it such a success, but not necessarily in its sense as a time lasting cinema piece, but in the sense that it changed EVERYTHING in how science fiction as a genre emerged in cinema (In addition close encounters of the 3rd kind which came out later that year, albeit with a budget closer to that of 2001, which well ill explain in a sec).
A new hope was made on a shoestring budget (11 million) using no-name actors and a recently fired and then re-assembled team of practical effects wizards. After that it became far more common for major movie franchises to give massive budgets of 30-40 million to Big name Scif-Fi works. Previous to 1977 the record holder is 2001 clocking in at about 20 million dollars adjusted.
but a new hope did something that had almost never been pulled off before, it set the party off on merchandising and its profitability which fundamentally changed many major studios perspectives on "Sci-fi"
Comparatively Star Trek TMP finished production with a budget just under 50 Million and did not do nearly as well, specifically about half as well as Star Wars did, it did however solidify the pathway to merchandising that studios were trying to test out at the time, which gave way to some lets say interesting projects in the 80s (aka ALL KIDS PROGRAMMING)

also its tough to compare A New Hope with the others because to a degree it almost exists as a tribute film by Lucas to all the b-level space operas that he saw in his youth. the campy-ness of some of the masks and limitedness of the sets didnt seem as strange
when you compared them to the sort of films that had inspired Lucas to do what he did in Star Wars. Empire and Jedi are made in the awareness of the progression of the genre in film that was going on. In some ways parts of the story were solidified early on, but fundamentally a lot of what happened visually in the film changed with budget and the introduction of digital tracking, and frame replacement that greatly enhanced the models/battle that were green/drawn/matte screened in. There's some absolutely excellent explanation of this in FUTURE magazine if you can ever find these around at a comic/mag store (usually for about 25 cents a piece, if not for more than one)

[eldargal]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CX7TbF5WkAEgnR7.jpg:large

[Tyrendian]

that's fantastic! :D

[eldargal]

Yup.:p Accurate too lol.

[odinsgrandson]

...I liked the world building around the Gungans....

...and then they go and ruin it by giving them the most irritating speech they could find.

I'm with you.

A friend of mine did a linguistic analysis on gunguns (http://brycemoore.com/books/other/the-dialect-of-jar-jar-binks/).

[Arkhan Land]

that rules

[Mr Mystery]

Allegedly, the current lack of Rey toys and merchandise was to do with potential spoilers. (http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2016/01/05/hasbro-responds-to-reys-exclusion-from-star-wars-monopoly/)

Not entirely sure I believe, but there's a promise of more to come, which adds to plausibility given lead times for design and production.

[Charistoph]

Allegedly, the current lack of Rey toys and merchandise was to do with potential spoilers. (http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2016/01/05/hasbro-responds-to-reys-exclusion-from-star-wars-monopoly/)

Not entirely sure I believe, but there's a promise of more to come, which adds to plausibility given lead times for design and production.

Considering much of it was "spoiled" by the trailers, I don't really see this being a case for anything but a model carrying a lightsaber, which she only really carried for the last portion of the movie.

[Mr Mystery]

Very little was spoiled by the trailers. Rey being the central character? Not according to the trailers. Kylo Ren's identity? Nope. They showed a lot, but naff all of the actual plot.

[Charistoph]

Very little was spoiled by the trailers. Rey being the central character? Not according to the trailers. Kylo Ren's identity? Nope. They showed a lot, but naff all of the actual plot.

They showed more Rey then Poe. Other than a masked Ren and unmasking Finn and a few "welcom back, Han"s, Rey was quite prevalent the Trailers I saw.

[Mr Mystery]

Not with the Lightsaber. Not flying the Falcon (apart from late on).

And in the meantime, youth group took ****ty Bratz dolls, removed the makeup/decoration, and helped girls make their own Rey figures (http://makezine.com/2016/01/01/kids-turn-bratz-into-star-wars-rey-dolls/?utm_content=buffercee99&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

'Nuff reyspek!

[Charistoph]

Not with the Lightsaber. Not flying the Falcon (apart from late on).

I did reference the lightsaber as being a reason to hold back. Most of the movie she had either staff or pistol. No spoilers releasing a Rey with just that.

And did they release a Falcon set with Han, Chewie, Finn, and/or BB-8 recently?


And in the meantime, youth group took ****ty Bratz dolls, removed the makeup/decoration, and helped girls make their own Rey figures (http://makezine.com/2016/01/01/kids-turn-bratz-into-star-wars-rey-dolls/?utm_content=buffercee99&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

'Nuff reyspek!

That is awesome.

Aside from anti-shine makeup, they did a good job making her look like she didn't care what make-up was. Not that I can tell when my wife has hers on half the time.

[Kirsten]

just got back fro seeing it. disappointed.

[Mr Mystery]

Shut your dirty mouth!

It's ace!

[Kirsten]

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler

it's just A New Hope again. I have that film already. on video and dvd. why did I pay £10 to go and watch it again in 3d?

[Alaric]

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler

it's just A New Hope again. I have that film already. on video and dvd. why did I pay £10 to go and watch it again in 3d?


Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!
Spoiler! Its a spoiler! Don't look! Your eyes will burn out!



Awesome. LOL. You are not alone. Not a bad film but it had so much in common with Episode 4...not to mention sissy dark jedi (relax Erik, I do agree with yer assesments, I just got my own) and I dunno..it just didn't feel star warsy to me...just an action movie they slapped star wars on.... Good show, just not my fave.

[odinsgrandson]

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it's just A New Hope again. I have that film already. on video and dvd. why did I pay £10 to go and watch it again in 3d?

Yeah- that's gonna be the major criticism this film has. It felt a bit silly that our mcguffins are so similar to the mcguffins from the first Star Wars. Do we really need a third Death Star? Or a new Cantina?

It makes me worry that our plot twists going forward are all going to match the ones from before. And that'd be a shame.

For my part, I feel that it is a comment on the previous Star Wars films in a lot of ways. That's my reading, anyway.

Also- in a lot of ways it felt more like fan fiction than a true installment in the series.

[Arkhan Land]

maybe not fan fiction but certainly too much fan service

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair, the number one complaint circling online over and over during and after the prequels was, "these don't feel enough like the original trilogy."

So they made a movie like the original trilogy.

Also where are you seeing 3D movies for a tenner? Cos I'mma hit up those cheap-*** prices.

[Gotthammer]

http://41.media.tumblr.com/9e77744a6ddf17f4c19ea2941a8d2827/tumblr_nzxdb1prPi1r6a1xdo1_500.png


AU where everything is the same, but Kylo Ren admires his grandmother too

- - - Updated - - -

https://40.media.tumblr.com/871a023a75b7a4ca5fe14e32fd984e07/tumblr_nzsp4djTuk1tojoy6o1_540.jpg

[eldargal]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/88c58ca782aedd47dee1070681f8706c/tumblr_o0hvj9nnkE1r83d7lo1_540.png
https://45.media.tumblr.com/90096d0f1617c0648709aa39ecbe9c18/tumblr_o0hvj9nnkE1r83d7lo2_250.gif

Edit: That;s 1.5 times her bodyweight (119lb), which is very strong. She could wipe the floor with ANH Luke and 99% of the turds attacking Rey as unrealistic.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I couldn't deadlift half of that, probably.

[Mr Mystery]

Jeebus!

[Alaric]

https://40.media.tumblr.com/88c58ca782aedd47dee1070681f8706c/tumblr_o0hvj9nnkE1r83d7lo1_540.png
https://45.media.tumblr.com/90096d0f1617c0648709aa39ecbe9c18/tumblr_o0hvj9nnkE1r83d7lo2_250.gif

Edit: That;s 1.5 times her bodyweight (119lb), which is very strong. She could wipe the floor with ANH Luke and 99% of the turds attacking Rey as unrealistic.

Being able to deadlift does not equate to fighting skills lol. Agree she could beat up pansy episode 4 luke tho.

[Mr Mystery]

Kylo Ren wasn't exactly dazzling with his own skill, and we saw earlier in the film she's damned handy with a quarter staff. We have no reason to assume that was ever the total of her skill in combat.

[eldargal]

Do you think its been long enough to be less punctilious about adding all the spoiler tags?

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler etc

spoiler.

I think people forget that Ren is not, actually shown to be a great fighter as Mr M says. He does a fancy trick on Jakku sure, but most of the action is accomplished by stormtroopers, and we find out mid way through the film he worried hw will never measure up to Vader. Which he won't. His whole thing is he cultivates the LOOK of a badass Sith but he isn't one, and its telling that many guys have an easier time believing Ren was a badass despite little support for it than believing Rey is despite it being quite clearly demonstrated by the very fact she survives on Jakku alone since she was ickle.

[Kirsten]

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler

I am not going to bother reading through so many pages to catch up. there were individual scenes I liked, but overall the film wasn't great. the plot was a total rehash of A New Hope, seriously, a third death star? ridiculous. Kylo Ren was an awful, awful villain. everbody hated angsty man-child Anakin in the prequels, why double down on that awfulness with Ren? Phasma was a total waste, no point at all her being in the film, ought to have been saved for later. wooden, dodgy looking armour in close-ups, no personality or anything that made her worth showing. then I realised this morning that everything is basically her fault shutting down the shields. so in fact her one contribution to the film is the total destruction of death star version three. totally undermines anything she might do in future, she can't be a badass or a worthwhile villain having capitulated to a couple of mercenaries and single handedly allowing the rebels to win. all the big scenes were just re-shoots of episode four, making it fairly low impact. also, how dot he rebels not know about death star 3.0? they are all surprised when the first system is blown up, but immediately get reports that it is recharging and aiming at them. how do they know? there must be spies on the death star, or nearby watching, so what the hell were they doing before it fired?

[eldargal]

Weird.:p

[odinsgrandson]

maybe not fan fiction but certainly too much fan service

Now, this is a term I don't feel I understand. Does it mean to give the fans what they wanted?

That's sort of basic audience awareness (although definitely something George was lacking).

[Kirsten]

http://41.media.tumblr.com/9e77744a6ddf17f4c19ea2941a8d2827/tumblr_nzxdb1prPi1r6a1xdo1_500.png

I thought Ren seemed interesting until he took his helmet off and revealed himself to be Napoleon Dynamite...

[odinsgrandson]

Do you think its been long enough to be less punctilious about adding all the spoiler tags?


I figured it was because the beginning of most posts get copied and shown on the side of the forum pages to everyone visiting BolS.

If you're reading the thread, you've seen the film (or had it all spoiled for you by now). So I don't feel like they're for us.

[Charistoph]

spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler


Kylo Ren wasn't exactly dazzling with his own skill, and we saw earlier in the film she's damned handy with a quarter staff. We have no reason to assume that was ever the total of her skill in combat.

I think people forget that Ren is not, actually shown to be a great fighter as Mr M says. He does a fancy trick on Jakku sure, but most of the action is accomplished by stormtroopers, and we find out mid way through the film he worried hw will never measure up to Vader. Which he won't. His whole thing is he cultivates the LOOK of a badass Sith but he isn't one, and its telling that many guys have an easier time believing Ren was a badass despite little support for it than believing Rey is despite it being quite clearly demonstrated by the very fact she survives on Jakku alone since she was ickle.
No, Ren is not shown as a great fighter. He allows his emotions to control him too much. This is not matching the Sith Code, though, so he can be overwhelmed by someone fresh, but in control of her emotions and linked with the Force.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

If one allows their emotions to control them, they are enchained. And Ren was definitely being tied up by something, and it wasn't just the belly wound.

[Erik Setzer]

Allegedly, the current lack of Rey toys and merchandise was to do with potential spoilers. (http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2016/01/05/hasbro-responds-to-reys-exclusion-from-star-wars-monopoly/)

Not entirely sure I believe, but there's a promise of more to come, which adds to plausibility given lead times for design and production.

Yeah, I call bull****. They could have produced toys of her sans lightsaber. It's that easy. She only uses it at the end of the movie, the staff is more associated with her. She uses the staff in Disney Infinity (and a pistol), and it's perfectly fine. I have a POP of her with the staff on my desk, looks fine. Heck, her holding Anakin's saber would probably be less interesting, because it's not her weapon.

So the "spoilers" claim is bollocks.

- - - Updated - - -


Do we really need a third Death Star?

Well, that's what half the EU was, finding new superweapons to throw out there. Dark Empire had multiple Star Destroyers with planet-destroying lasers, a "Galaxy Gun," and Palpatine could destroy worlds himself. The Jedi Academy trilogy had the Sun Crusher. Courtship of Princess Leia had, IIRC, satellites that could black out a world. (They became a lot less silly in the way the X-Wing novels used them, but in those cases Zsinj only used a handful, to cover very small areas, most notably to hide the Second Death until it could be used to fake Iron Fist's destruction.) It just expanded from there. People loved the EU, though. Apparently superweapons are part of the Star Wars DNA.

I'm hoping we don't have another, though. Sure, okay, I'm fine with Starkiller. But at this point, I think it's proven those are a bad idea. Especially when you have a fleet of extremely upgraded Star Destroyers.



Or a new Cantina?

Yes. There are never enough cantinas. More boozing it up among bunches of aliens!

- - - Updated - - -


She could wipe the floor with ANH Luke and 99% of the turds attacking Rey as unrealistic.

The character spent her whole life scavenging in the ruins of giant ships. I could definitely believe all the stuff she was doing, even without the Force as a crutch to lean on (which Anakin had).

- - - Updated - - -


Do you think its been long enough to be less punctilious about adding all the spoiler tags?

It's especially silly in a topic labeled for spoiler discussion...



I think people forget that Ren is not, actually shown to be a great fighter as Mr M says. He does a fancy trick on Jakku sure, but most of the action is accomplished by stormtroopers, and we find out mid way through the film he worried hw will never measure up to Vader. Which he won't. His whole thing is he cultivates the LOOK of a badass Sith but he isn't one, and its telling that many guys have an easier time believing Ren was a badass despite little support for it than believing Rey is despite it being quite clearly demonstrated by the very fact she survives on Jakku alone since she was ickle.

I think both are capable in their own way, but Rey is a lot better because she actually has it together emotionally (for the most part... parents are still a sore spot). Ren would probably be a lot more dangerous if he wasn't unhinged inside, dealing with a conflict on who he is.

Also, who are these "many guys" who actually believe Ren is a badass? I've seen a depressing number of people claiming he's a wimp because he couldn't win a lightsaber fight (after being shot by a Stormtrooper-wrecking weapon, killing his own dad to try to stop the conflict in his head, and having just had another lightsaber fight).

Personally, I think they're both "badasses" in their own right, but they also both have limitations... like real people.

[Erik Setzer]

Fan reaction got Hasbro to wise up:

http://www.slashgear.com/rey-fans-rejoice-the-force-awakens-monopoly-will-feature-the-heroine-06421669/

To make it really right, they'll need to have a plan to be willing to send copies to anyone who already bought the Rey-less version.

[Mr Mystery]

Spoiler thing was to prevent the sidebar interfering :)

But yes. I think we can dispense with them now!

[odinsgrandson]

Clearly Kylo Ren is a badass because he has a red lightsaber. Can you name anyone in the movies that gets a red lightsaber without first being a badass?

Yeah, that's what I've got. We never really get to see Sith in training, but you figure they have to start somewhere, right?



No, Ren is not shown as a great fighter. He allows his emotions to control him too much. This is not matching the Sith Code...

Actually, I feel like we're seeing two very different revisions of what George Lucas wrote:

- George's Sith are guys who act completely stoic all the time (Sidious, Dooku, Vader and Maul). Apparently, however, you get there by giving in to your emotions and unleashing your anger. But for all of their talk, they don't show their anger.

- David Gaider (of Bioware) wrote the Sith Code for Knights of the Old Republic. According to it, Sith need to be passionate and through that they gain power. It says nothing of controlling emotions.

(Of course, anything not in the seven films or Holiday Special should be considered B cannon)

- Abram's Kylo Ren follows what is taught- but not what is shown. Ren gives in to his anger and lets his emotions dictate his actions, just like Darth Vader and the Sith Code suggest.

But the Code does not advise that Sith should become the stoic, distanced sociopaths that we see.

Basically, Emo Ren is a better Sith than we've ever seen before.

[Alaric]

Basically, Emo Ren is a better Sith than we've ever seen before.

Nope.

[Charistoph]

Basically, Emo Ren is a better Sith than we've ever seen before.

AND you missed the point of that entire group of sentences.

[Gotthammer]

http://40.media.tumblr.com/1285ab0974cd49547cf011df8acb3b3c/tumblr_o0jbgvxmQa1swcun3o1_540.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/ee6bcc8cae9fef490be29ca6b838b285/tumblr_o0jbgvxmQa1swcun3o2_540.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/257c9f0edcefde5c19bd7f58348e37e1/tumblr_o0jbgvxmQa1swcun3o3_540.jpg

http://40.media.tumblr.com/1551bf106f8f2f5f44085e3822b6c175/tumblr_o0jbgvxmQa1swcun3o4_540.jpg

[eldargal]

Awesome lol.:p

[Morgrim]

spoiler
spoiler
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I don't know if it was from the novel since I haven't had a chance to read it yet (I tend to enjoy the novels more than the films, they get into characters' heads more) but apparently Plasma's reasons for shutting down the shield generator was supreme confidence in her troops. As soon as the shield was deactivated a warning was going to go off elsewhere and she expected a bunch of stormtroopers would rush to her location and easily subdue the invaders.

I hope they play that up later.

[grimmas]

Finally watched this one, in 3D IMAX no less, with the wife after she insisted on watching the six preceding films in short order to refresh her memory (back off she's my wife you lot will have to get our own 😉) Very enjoyable romp. I rather enjoyed he fact that Rey and Finn were both played people people who could actually act and that they weren't whiny pains, like the Skywalkers (all of them).

I did have a nagging feeling that something was a bit wrong though

Did it strike anyone else that basically the rebellion didn't really change anything other than the names of the people In charge. It seems like the battle of Endor changed nothing. 25 or so years later Han is still running from people he owes money to. Leia is still leading the Rebellion (sorry resistance) based on a Leafy forest world. The Empire (come on it's still the Bl**dy Empire) is still building curiously vulnerable mega weapons (that they only use once) and Stromtroopers can only hit extras (can't they let them just hit one named character?). Despite common opinion I'm beginning to think it's the Rebels who are the incompetent ones. The paraphrase Wilde to "To get taken once once by Space facists is unfortunate. To get taken over twice smacks of carelessness"

It was all very well done, acted and casted (a nice improvement on the prequels) but as part of the Star Wars saga it seemed more like a remake or reboot with a nod to the original rather than a continuation of the story as as whole. Of course we have more films to go so I'm hopeful it's all part of the story telling.

I realise I'm playing with fire raising this opinion but that's never stopped me before has it? 😳

Oh I'd also point out I only watch the live action films so if the whole thing is explained elsewhere I won't have got that.

[Kirsten]

you aren't the only one, I thought it would be more of a role reversal, with the the Republic well established and a imperial remnants trying to fight back. Perhaps they feel that ground has been covered in the prequels and are attempting to have more of a balance to the two sides, as they mention the Republic in the film.

[Alaric]

Finally watched this one, in 3D IMAX no less, with the wife after she insisted on watching the six preceding films in short order to refresh her memory (back off she's my wife you lot will have to get our own 😉) Very enjoyable romp. I rather enjoyed he fact that Rey and Finn were both played people people who could actually act and that they weren't whiny pains, like the Skywalkers (all of them).

I did have a nagging feeling that something was a bit wrong though

Did it strike anyone else that basically the rebellion didn't really change anything other than the names of the people In charge. It seems like the battle of Endor changed nothing. 25 or so years later Han is still running from people he owes money to. Leia is still leading the Rebellion (sorry resistance) based on a Leafy forest world. The Empire (come on it's still the Bl**dy Empire) is still building curiously vulnerable mega weapons (that they only use once) and Stromtroopers can only hit extras (can't they let them just hit one named character?). Despite common opinion I'm beginning to think it's the Rebels who are the incompetent ones. The paraphrase Wilde to "To get taken once once by Space facists is unfortunate. To get taken over twice smacks of carelessness"

It was all very well done, acted and casted (a nice improvement on the prequels) but as part of the Star Wars saga it seemed more like a remake or reboot with a nod to the original rather than a continuation of the story as as whole. Of course we have more films to go so I'm hopeful it's all part of the story telling.

I realise I'm playing with fire raising this opinion but that's never stopped me before has it? 😳

Oh I'd also point out I only watch the live action films so if the whole thing is explained elsewhere I won't have got that.

It also struck me as wierd that they have a super weapon to end all super weapons right. Why in the hell wpuld they not Park 20 star destroyers around it? OK lets say its some sort of sciency reason and big ships cant stay close. Alright. Then why the hell is the planet sized station not housing a contingent of tie fighters? 100s could fit on a station that size.
Luckily there were a dozen or so xwings available to save the day.
The movie made the universe seem the size of my backyard as well to me. Cant explain that one well but the universe felt small...

[Mr Mystery]

See that planet? And the handful of Star Destroyers?

That's the First Order, that is. All of it. Every last man Jack of them.

They didn't build the Super Weapon, despite Hux's claim. Archtecture is Imperial. It was a top secret super-weapon. A backup in case the Deathstar wasn't enough. Perhaps one that could be used to annihilate threats from without.

Snoke? Whoever he is, he knew it was there. Convincing lie that The First Order have always been, and that they built it? Easy enough when your troops are brainwashed from get go, and constantly monitored.

The Republic doesn't have a standing army as such. Else they'd just be The Empire in all but name. The fleet is there to support local systems - a Police force, rather than an Army. That's made clear to be Mon Mothma's intent in the hit-and-miss-but-worth-a-read-on-balance Aftermath.

[grimmas]

you aren't the only one, I thought it would be more of a role reversal, with the the Republic well established and a imperial remnants trying to fight back. Perhaps they feel that ground has been covered in the prequels and are attempting to have more of a balance to the two sides, as they mention the Republic in the film.

Fair one. Might have been interesting to see how they'd have spun that to stop the hunted Empire fragments seeming like the ones being put upon. It might have ended up a bit Anerican sniper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV7Ha3VDbzE

[Mr Mystery]

Further thoughts....

The Republic.

It's barely 30 years since The Empire was dealt a heavy blow over Endor. But that wasn't the end of their military might.

So how long has it been since The Empire was finally, properly defeated? Their weapons of war and terror dismantled? That we don't currently know.

Does The Republic have much appetite for yet more conflict? Why is Leia Organa a General with a Resistance, and not helping to lead The Republic?

Simple answers seem suitable, given the current lack of clear information...

1. The Republic is The Republic. Being a galaxy spanning democracy, and one born out of civil war against a horrifically repressive regime, they couldn't decide what to do. They were locked in endless debate - much the same state The Old a Republic was in when Palpatine came to power. Snoke could have attempted the very same thing, but failed. Leia and Han know about Snoke, that much is clear.

2. Starkiller Base wasn't considered a credible enough threat for The Republic to decide a course of aggressive action. For whatever reason (misdirection, democratic paralysis etc) there wasn't a belief it could ever be fired. Until of course it destroyed the Hoasnian System....

3. General Leia did what she could. Took a group of her followers and attempted to keep The First Order in check.

4. Hosnia Prime was targeted because of The Fleet, not because it was the seat of a The Republic. The Republic Fleet we can assume was large enough to properly threaten The First Order - outnumbered, outgunned. Doesn't matter. As soon as Starkiller Base was proven viable, The First Order knew The Fleet would strike. So they took it out.

But the above is just conjecture. I'm reading the spin off stories, but so far there's nowt in what I've read to confirm or deny. Barring Mon Mothma's insistence that The Republic should have a limited military presence.

[Alaric]

The imperials had bastion worlds though so I cant imagine why there were not more ships and just manpower in general. Agree that its weird Leia wasn't running the new republic but that is moot as they conveniently blew up Coruscant (which I found weird they did not actually name, coulda missed it tho) and other planets in the name of marketing..i mean in the name of the First Order. Star Wars: The Marketing Awakens.

You would think just having the name "starkiller base" would have warranted action much sooner. I mean they killed the second deathstar mid construction to nip it in the butt asap, so why leave it alone for a decade?

Fun times, trying to make sense of fantasy lol

[Erik Setzer]

The Republic *did* take over, and the Rebellion's done. But then they thought it'd be fine to scrap most of the military, so it didn't become an Empire again. And hey, what do you know, that leaves no official resistance to the First Order popping up, so Leia gets together with some folks to make a "Resistance," which officially has nothing to do with the Republic, though everyone pretty much knows it does.

The First Order is relatively new. It doesn't have the massive fleet of the Empire, but if you have a fair number of those Resurgent class Star Destroyers, they should be able to bully people well. As it is, though, it's doubtful most of the galaxy paid them much attention, much in the way Hitler was ignored until he actually started invading other countries.

Why not have a mass of ships around Starkiller? Well, couple things here:

1. There was a fleet out there in space around SKB. But it was out in space.
2. The X-Wings came out of hyperspace close in to the planet. They didn't have to go through outer defenses. I'm guessing Han taught them that trick. It works better with smaller ships anyway.

So now you're left with just the defenses on the "base." You could imagine a couple of TIE squadrons being ready at all times for an emergency, which is what we saw. Beyond that, and they're going to have to take time to get armaments ready, fuel up, get the pilots suited and into their ships, etc. That takes time. You can't just leave hundreds of ships sitting around with ordnance and fuel in them. That's a disaster waiting to happen. Similarly, you have to do the pre-flight warmup and get the ship ready to go. Can't leave them running all the time, because aside from being dangerous, that's insanely expensive.

By the time they had the ships ready to go, things were already going bad, and it was evacuation time. They still didn't have all of the ships ready to go. Even as the place was blowing up, they couldn't evac all the fighters, because they didn't have time to prep them for launch.

Bonus, it seems like Hux had a pretty good idea the place wasn't really the soundest idea, and was ready to bolt at a moment's notice. Only lower officers stuck around. If they hadn't started evacuating before the place actually started coming apart, they wouldn't have gotten out. That says that no one in the upper ranks expected SKB to actually work long-term. Heck, Snoke didn't even seem particularly fazed by it.

Then again, if what I've read about the Resurgents is accurate, they don't need SKB. They have a fleet capable of pounding people into submission, and learned some serious lessons from the ISDs and the Executor's demise.*

Hopefully it all pans out in Episode VIII. I want to see some serious space battles!




*Okay, so on a side note, this is something that is kind of weird. The RSDs have a secondary bridge built into them in order to prevent what happened to the Executor (ditto for making the conning tower very short). In the novel X-Wing: Iron Fist, when Zsinj's folks are stealing Razor's Kiss, the bridge gets taken out, but a Kuat Drive Yards employee is able to take control of the ship from a secondary location, at least enough to slave it to Iron Fist so the crew on Iron Fist could guide it away from Kuat. That made sense to me, a giant ship having redundant systems. But it seems that, canonically, the SSDs *didn't* have redundant systems. Makes no sense to me.

One of many issues with the old SDs that the Resurgents looked to correct. (Also: actually using all that surface area for weapon emplacements. Yikes.)

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The imperials had bastion worlds though so I cant imagine why there were not more ships and just manpower in general. Agree that its weird Leia wasn't running the new republic but that is moot as they conveniently blew up Coruscant (which I found weird they did not actually name, coulda missed it tho) and other planets in the name of marketing..i mean in the name of the First Order. Star Wars: The Marketing Awakens.

See, you're still rolling with the old canon.

There's not really established "bastion worlds" in the official canon. You can imagine there might be, but not necessarily.

Jakku was a manufacturing world in the new canon, and the "Rebellion" got together enough of a fleet to blast a bunch of SDs there. At some point, the New Republic would gain access to SDs as systems and officers joined them and left the ghost of the Empire behind. Eventually, the New Republic's fleet gets large enough that trying to fight it becomes a moot point. And then they win.

Coruscant wasn't named because it wasn't destroyed. Hosnian Prime was destroyed. The New Republic decided to move their "capital" around based on votes of the Senate so no one planet was considered more important than the rest. The capital at the time of TFA is Hosnian Prime. Coruscant's still kicking, as far as we know. (Though it wouldn't surprise me if, somewhere along the line, it had gotten wasted in the fighting.)

Leia isn't in charge of the New Republic because this isn't the EU. Throughout the original trilogy, she's almost always on the front lines, leading soldiers rather than politicians. Mon Mothma was the one leading the political side of things. It makes sense that Leia would continue to do what she does well, inspiring people on the front lines and commanding soldiers, leaving the politics to people who deal well in that arena.

And I doubt many people knew of Starkiller Base. Heck, it sounds like the Resistance had no real clue until Finn defected and started talking about it, but that was after it'd already taken out the Hosnian system. Then they started running scouts by it to gather info, and got intel from Finn. You might think it's hard to hide something like that, but hey, people lost the location of the first Jedi temple, too. The EU also had its own share of stories of systems and worlds that got dropped off maps and/or forgotten.