Telion, Scouts, and Stealth

[Dingareth]

This came off of a little debate on Warseer:

Does Telion give his unit the Stealth USR since it is listed under his rules? This would shave a fair amount of points off of Telion's cost if he saved you from having to buy Camo Cloaks.

[Dosadi]

My thinking is that no, he does not give the squad stealth. I play it that way. Unitl I see a FAQ telling me otherwise, I'll continue to pay for the cloaks.
On that note, I've used him twice now and haven't found him to be all that effective. A regular scout sergeant with a sniper rifle is less points and might be just as good. But I like the model (and the corrupted chaos conversion I did) so I'll keep using him for now. One of these days he's gonna pay off in spades!


Dosadi

[StrikerFox]

wow, this one is tricky! he isnt an IC. in the USR it says on pg74 "special rules marked with (*) are automatically lost by an IC joinging a unit that doesnt havethe same special rule.." (and visa versa)

he's not considered and IC.. and usually if an IC is the one joining, he confers his abilities unto his squad// (i thnk that might have been the confusion about warptime) or visa versa... hmm

this is interesting because he is just an upgraded seargent...

[Dingareth]

Exactly! And it's not usually a problem because either the entire unit has a rule or not, and well, Telion he's imbetween.

I think that he does, as it makes sense in the fluff- he's a teacher, so he's teaching his students to be Stealthy, as Dosadi pointed out his points cost is way above what he's worth if he doesn't include the Stealth bonus, and lastly an actual rules point to back it up;

The Stealth USR states that: "The unit's Cover Save is increased by +1." So it seems to me that since the USR says the "unit's" save is increased, the whole unit should get it. It seems to me to be a lot like Sergeant Harker here, who also gives his unit Stealth and it makes Telion actually worth his points in a 10 man squad.

[mkerr]

Does Telion give his unit the Stealth USR since it is listed under his rules? This would shave a fair amount of points off of Telion's cost if he saved you from having to buy Camo Cloaks.

I do agree that it's not a simple answer. This is a very rare exception to the way GW uses USRs. But a complicated issue has never stopped me from wading in with my thoughts! :)

The short answer, for me, is "No".

Here's the long answer:

1. Telion has Stealth, but isn't an Independent Character. What does that mean? That means he doesn't lose Stealth as a member of a squad. He has Stealth, but his squad makes don't. Is there a rule conflict if only one model has Stealth? No, not as a long as that model isn't an Independent Character.

2. I can't think of any examples where a single model with a USR in a unit gives that ability to the entire squad (i.e., an upgrade character with Furious Charge wouldn't give that ability to the entire squad) without speaking to that explicitly (e.g., Apothecaries, etc.).

But let's walk off the beaten path and talk about intent.

Question #1: "Why did they give him Stealth?". My guess is they wanted him to fit into a wide variety of Scout Marine units. If I update to Telion, but buy the Camo Cloaks what happens to my unit? I can't give Telion a Camo Cloak, right? Giving him Stealth lets him fit into those units without complication.

Question #2: "If they only wanted him to have a +1 to cover saves, then why didn't they just give him a Camo Cloak?". The Occam's Razor answer to this question is that they didn't model him with a cloak, so they couldn't give him one. But that led to problems when the rest of the squad was upgraded to Camo Cloaks, so gave him Stealth instead.

So at this point, I'm leaning heavily into the "Telion has Stealth, but the squad doesn't unless they buy Camo Cloaks" camp. I'd love to hear an argument that would change my mind because I'd love to get a cheaper Telion in my army, lol.

-- MKerr

[Dingareth]

Simply that the Stealth USR says that the unit's Cover Save is improved, not the model's. For Furious Charge, for example, it says that the MODEL gains +1 S and I, whereas Stealth says the UNIT's save is increased.

Think of it as Telion teaching his Scouts to be quieter, or Harker having trained his squad to make good use of Jungle, or Snikrot bashin' some head together until his boyz get quiet and stay down.

Unfortunately, Kommandoz have Stealth built in, and Harker says specifically that he grants it to the unit, which leaves Telion out on his own. But Harker giving it to his squad, which would normaly be able to take it as an upgrade really sealed the deal on this for me, as he is another upgrade charecter that passed his skills along, much like Telion.

[darknite]

I do agree that it's not a simple answer. This is a very rare exception to the way GW uses USRs. But a complicated issue has never stopped me from wading in with my thoughts! :)

The short answer, for me, is "No".

Here's the long answer:

1. Telion has Stealth, but isn't an Independent Character. What does that mean? That means he doesn't lose Stealth as a member of a squad. He has Stealth, but his squad makes don't. Is there a rule conflict if only one model has Stealth? No, not as a long as that model isn't an Independent Character.

2. I can't think of any examples where a single model with a USR in a unit gives that ability to the entire squad (i.e., an upgrade character with Furious Charge wouldn't give that ability to the entire squad) without speaking to that explicitly (e.g., Apothecaries, etc.).

But let's walk off the beaten path and talk about intent.

Question #1: "Why did they give him Stealth?". My guess is they wanted him to fit into a wide variety of Scout Marine units. If I update to Telion, but buy the Camo Cloaks what happens to my unit? I can't give Telion a Camo Cloak, right? Giving him Stealth lets him fit into those units without complication.

Question #2: "If they only wanted him to have a +1 to cover saves, then why didn't they just give him a Camo Cloak?". The Occam's Razor answer to this question is that they didn't model him with a cloak, so they couldn't give him one. But that led to problems when the rest of the squad was upgraded to Camo Cloaks, so gave him Stealth instead.

So at this point, I'm leaning heavily into the "Telion has Stealth, but the squad doesn't unless they buy Camo Cloaks" camp. I'd love to hear an argument that would change my mind because I'd love to get a cheaper Telion in my army, lol.

-- MKerr

I agree completely with this position.

[mkerr]

Simply that the Stealth USR says that the unit's Cover Save is improved, not the model's. For Furious Charge, for example, it says that the MODEL gains +1 S and I, whereas Stealth says the UNIT's save is increased.

That's correct. The USRs were written with the expectations that the squad had the rule and that it would only be applied to single models that were Independent Characters.

But we have a problem with Mr Telion because he's not an independent character (or a unit composed of a single model). So how do we handle it?

We have three choices:
1. Treat Telion like an IC: If he's part of a unit that doesn't have Stealth, then he loses Stealth. I don't like this because he's clearly not an IC and those rules just shouldn't apply to him.
2. Treat Telion like a Stealth Carrier: If he's part of a unit that doesn't have Stealth, then he gives them Stealth. I don't like this because it's over reaching. I believe if they wanted him to grant Stealth, they would've spelled it out.
3. Treat Telion like a Special Case: He doesn't lose Stealth (because he's not an IC), but he doesn't share it either. I like this one because there's no reason why an individual model in a unit shouldn't be able to benefit from Stealth. It works perfectly well with the way that wound are applied to a unit.


Think of it as Telion teaching his Scouts to be quieter...

Unfortunately, you can't make fluff arguments to justify a rules position. I think it would be very reasonable to have an upgrade character give a unit a USR (like the Apothecary or a Standard Bearer), but that's not what Telion does.

I think you should make the case for your FLGS game organizer and if he agrees with you, then you've saved some points on Camo Cloaks. But I think that it's too much of a stretch.

-- MKerr

[The Mystic]

I would have to say he does.

Reason?

One key sentence in the Stealth USR.

"All of the units cover saves are improved by +1."

So you buy a Scout squad. Upgrade Sgt to Telion who has the Stealth USR. By the wording, ALL the unit gets a +1 to cover saves.

As he is not a singular unit the whole squad would benefit.

Simple.:)

[mkerr]

"All of the units cover saves are improved by +1."

The unit doesn't have Stealth, only Telion has Stealth. Telion isn't the unit.

Nothing in the rules even implies that an upgrade character gives his USRs to a unit he is a part of. If anything, the IC rules indicate that they want the opposite to happen.

I don't see a conflict with the rules if you simply allow Telion to have Stealth. If you allocate a wound to him, he gets a +1 on the cover save. He's stealthy. His less experienced squadmates are not.

Taking a "too literal" definition of the rules leads to all kinds of crazy stuff (like squeaking an extra 27pts out of a 50pt character). It's fun to talk about, but I don't recommend using it on the table.

-- MKerr

[The Mystic]

The problem is he is not an IC so their rules have no bearing on this discussion.

Although I agree that sometimes a to literal interpretation of the rules can be game damageing, it is sometimes the only way of determining the rule in question.

This discussion was started to determine how the rule works in this situation, therfore we have to use a
RAW standpoint to effectively determine the answer.

So again, you buy a Scout squad. You upgrade Sgt to Telion who has the Stealth USR. He is NOT an IC. The whole unit gains +1 to cover saves thanks to Stealth USR RAW.

[StrikerFox]

its honestlya really interesting topic. because it litterally does not spell out for you that he gives his unit stealth. If he was an IC then he would.. but he isnt.. and because the wording in the MRB is ambigious, its hard to say that he doesnt pass it on to his unit, or not.

i would have to rule that its a no however, only because he isnt an IC.


if you REALLY wanna treat him like an IC, then do so, but he gets all the pitfalls and perks of being one.. but otherwise to me, he's just like snikrot, or zagstrukk..

[krispy]

The problem is he is not an IC so their rules have no bearing on this discussion.

Although I agree that sometimes a to literal interpretation of the rules can be game damageing, it is sometimes the only way of determining the rule in question.

This discussion was started to determine how the rule works in this situation, therfore we have to use a
RAW standpoint to effectively determine the answer.

So again, you buy a Scout squad. You upgrade Sgt to Telion who has the Stealth USR. He is NOT an IC. The whole unit gains +1 to cover saves thanks to Stealth USR RAW.

i agree with The Mystics reasoning in this.
/krispy

[mkerr]

The problem is he is not an IC so their rules have no bearing on this discussion.

He's not a squad either.

Since the rule as written cannot be applied to Telion, we have to look at the rule in context (as well as delving into the dangerous world of the rule as intended). Since we can't apply the rule exactly, we have to take into consideration how USRs affect other distinct models. So I feel the IC rules are important to look at.


Although I agree that sometimes a to literal interpretation of the rules can be game damageing, it is sometimes the only way of determining the rule in question.

And sometimes they don't work and you have to go beyond that. If the rule as written was clear, this discussion wouldn't be happening. It would be obvious to everyone. I think we can agree there's that this isn't the case.


This discussion was started to determine how the rule works in this situation, therfore we have to use a RAW standpoint to effectively determine the answer.

I don't agree. The discussion wasn't "how do I justify getting Stealth for free?" it was "does Telion give his unit the Stealth USR since it is listed under his rules?". That's a "how do I play this?" question, so the context of the rule, the impact on game balance and the designer's intention are important to the discussion.


So again, you buy a Scout squad. You upgrade Sgt to Telion who has the Stealth USR. He is NOT an IC. The whole unit gains +1 to cover saves thanks to Stealth USR RAW.

He's also not a separate unit (at least while his squad is alive). If you want a literal interpretation of the RAW, then neither Telion nor the Scout Squad has Stealth until Telion is the last remaining member of the unit. At this point, the "unit" has Stealth and will gain a +1 to cover saves.

-- MKerr

[Dingareth]

He's also not a separate unit (at least while his squad is alive). If you want a literal interpretation of the RAW, then neither Telion nor the Scout Squad has Stealth until Telion is the last remaining member of the unit. At this point, the "unit" has Stealth and will gain a +1 to cover saves.

-- MKerr

Normally, I'd agree with you, but look at Stubborn for example. There, one model that is Stubborn keeps it because it does not have an *, but it also effects the unit as well, not just him. That is because it says, "Stubborn Units always ignore..." as opposed to Relentless, which would effect on a model by model basis becuase it says, "Relentless models can shoot..."

The difference is that some USRs apply to individual models, Rentless like rules- although the entire squad may or may not have it, such as Gun Drone- and Stealth and Stubborn like rules apply to units, not models.

An example:

Look at Furious Charge, "Models with this skill," so let's use Nork as an example. He has Furious Charge, but the Command Squad he is in does not. Becuase it says "models," you go on a model by model basis, so only he gets the bonuses.

But looking back at Stealth, it says Units, so that same unit- Nork and a Command Squad, would all benifit from Stealth if you had bought Camo Cloaks for the squad- including Nork.

So in the end, it's model vs unit for me.

[mkerr]

The difference is that some USRs apply to individual models, Rentless like rules- although the entire squad may or may not have it, such as Gun Drone- and Stealth and Stubborn like rules apply to units, not models.

Stealth was clearly not designed to be giving to a single non-IC character in a unit. It either applied to an Independent Character or to an entire squad. After writing the rule, they created an exception that doesn't fit with the USR.

So now we have to figure out the best solution to a problem.

1. We can't give Stealth to the unit. Telion is NOT the unit and the unit doesn't have Stealth. They don't tell us what to do when one upgrade character gets Stealth, but they do give us a clear indication of what they want us to do when only one model in a unit has a USR.

2. We can't take Stealth away from Telion. He's not an IC, so he doesn't lose the USR. He doesn't gain the flexibility of jumping from squad to squad (dragging his Stealth with him), so the IC exception doesn't apply to him.

3. So can we allow one model in a unit to have Stealth? Well, nothing breaks if one model has a different cover save than the rest of the unit. The new wound allocation rules handle that situation very cleanly.

So, to me, the most reasonable and consistent application of the rule is to give Telion Stealth but not give it to his squadmates unless they buy Camo Cloaks. Taking Stealth away is too draconic and giving Stealth to the squad for free is too permissive.


But looking back at Stealth, it says Units, so that same unit- Nork and a Command Squad, would all benifit from Stealth if you had bought Camo Cloaks for the squad- including Nork.

Of course, Nork gets Camo Cloaks because he's part of the squad and the rule says you "give the entire squad" the upgrade. That example doesn't work here because there's no ambiguity.

Telion's description doesn't say he gives "the entire squad" Stealth, it says that he has Stealth. That's a major difference.


So in the end, it's model vs unit for me.

The unit doesn't have Stealth, only Telion has it. Telion is not the unit.

[BuFFo]

I wholly agree with Mkerr.

Telion has an ability which doesn't work unless he is alone. This is no different than the Ork Grots having an Ork leader with WAAAGH and Mob up rules (stormboyz with WAAAGH as well, etc...).

Sometimes units/models get rules which simply do not work.

Does Stealth effect units? Yes.

Does the scout UNIT have stealth? No, only one model does.

But to be completely honest, I can see how it works the other way as well. So if my opponent wanted to use it that way, that wouldn't bother me any really.

[Dan-e]

not to derail this topic but also not to start a new thread, but would you still have to spend 3 points for Telion if you give your scouts camo? i mean its 3per model and he replaces one so that is still 5... would it be 3 points spent to give him something he already has?

again sorry for the off topic question

[Jwolf]

not to derail this topic but also not to start a new thread, but would you still have to spend 3 points for Telion if you give your scouts camo? i mean its 3per model and he replaces one so that is still 5... would it be 3 points spent to give him something he already has?

again sorry for the off topic question

No, Telion is purchased as is and does not take upgrades. And he doesn't need the cloak, since he has the Stealth rule innately.

[Vince]

If they wanted the entire unit to get stealth it would say something to the effect of when you take Telion the entire unit gets stealth. Any thing else is wishful thinking. When they want to give a unit a bonus for taking something they spell it. Its not a easter egg hidden in the codex that smart players get a bunch of free camo cloaks.

[GrandmasterRay]

Mkerr is very correct. there is no "interpretation" to this situation.

P. 74 MRB states "The special rules marked with an asterisk are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule"

Telion is not an independent character.

This USR has no asterisk.

If he was an independent character, they would get the USR.

He is not an independent character so the squad does not get the USR (regardless of how it is worded).

[ggg]

I run Telion with a scout squad and (made the mistake of) using him in a tournament army. I don't believe that he conveys the rule to the rest of his unit for the reasons set out above and as a result I purchase camo claks for the rest of the squad - avoiding the problem. However, if I play someone else who relies upon Telion conveying the upgrade to the whole squad then I believe there is enough ambiguity and uncertainty to merit resolution by a D6 roll off: 4+ the squad get it, otherwise he alone benefits.

[Culven]

. . .otherwise he alone benefits.
By the Stealth rules, is isn't individual models that benefit, but the unit. Hence the arguement about whether the entire unit must have the USR in order to benefit from it. Personally, I think the rules would work better if Stealth improved the model's Cover Save, since we already have rules to explain how to deal with different Saves.

[LEGION]

The way I see it there is no direct rule over this problem. you can only INFER from the IC rules, except that Telion is NOT an IC so the rules shouldn't really apply at all. There is no direct rule stating he DOES NOT confer stealth at the same time there is no direct rule stating that he DOES.

In my opinion you have to do what every legal court does in situations with no clear rules; you have to look for precedents, i.e. other models that work the same way.

Luckily there is Gunnery Sgt Harker in the IG codex. Lets look at the similarities'

1. Is not a IC.
2. Can only be purchased as a unit upgrade.
3. Cost is 55 points, Telion is 50. (Harker also confers infiltrate and move through cover)
4. Original unit can take camo cloaks for 30points.

Other than stat lines these models are nearly the same in their purpose. A veteran Sergeant that "should" give the unit special abilities based on their experience.

Now in Harker's description it specifically states exactly what rules only apply to him, Feel no pain and relentless. And it specifically states that he confers stealth to his unit while Telion's description only lists stealth as one of his abilities. However stealth as written in the rulebook only applies to whole units not individual models.

Being that the IG codex was written AFTER the SM one and presumably better because it directly addresses ambiguities such as this, I would rule that there are enough similarities that the intent of GW is that Telion bestows stealth to the team he is purchased for.

When dealing with actual law, the Intent of the law is always a factor in prosecution. Just look at the debate over bingo machines and gambling.

[Vince]

You cant compare giving stealth to a space marine scout squad to giving it to a IG squad on a point for point basis. Your Harker point only reinforces why they don't get stealth for free. If they wanted Telion to give stealth they just would have put stealth on Harker and not said it effects his squad because it didn't need to be spelled out. The fact that they spelled out it does shows it doens't give stealth for free to the unit Telion is with. Lets keep fluff / real world analogies out of the rules discussion if possible as they just muddle the issue.