Clan raukan questions

[Vangrail]

1. Is the book still useable?
2. Considering I play sons of medusa and use vaylund cal (fw iron hands tatics char) can I use this book?

[energongoodie]

I believe they released an updated digital version that brought it in line with the latest codex and made the book redundant. But I'm still using my hard cover book and the guys at my games club are fine with it :)

[Vangrail]

I think my local gw has one. Id buy if i can use it. I can use all my forge world units and stuff correct? Isnt it just bonus stuff for the marine book? So its everything i use now and more?

[energongoodie]

I'm afraid I don't have the digital version to check against, sorry.
Do remember though that we aren't as good as we were. Our tanks lost IWND. Dreadnoughts only now.
I hope this gets FAQ'd and we get it back :( I really miss this rule on my tank heavy list which I no longer run.

[Vangrail]

Honestly looking at it I beleive they still do. People argue well tanks don't get chapter tatics. It says all vehicles get iwnd and people still make their land raiders redeemers twin linked bc sallys. And land speeders with duel meta twinlinked. Everywhere I play people say tanks still get iwnd and are pretty sure it's just people being dumb...

[Charon]

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

Only models with the chapter tactics trait do benefit from chapter tactics. The vehicle is from the Iron Hands chapter (is drawn from the given chapter) but does not have the chapter tactics special rule (character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule)

[Vangrail]

According to the updated ITC Faq. "Vehicles with the Space Marines Faction in an Iron Hands detachment benefit from the Machine Empathy special rule even if they do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule"

So yea I'm pretty sure people are just being stubborn. Bc it says all vehicles get the rule. So as far as I'm concerned it's how it always was.

[Charon]

You can houserule whatever your want. RAW they do not have it.


Bc it says all vehicles get the rule.

It does not. It says Iron Hands Vehicles get it. And according to the chapter tactics rules you have to fulfill two criteria to be considered an iron hands vehicle (ruleswise) 1) be chosen into an iron hands detachment and 2) have the Chapter tactics trait. The Dread fulfills both criteria, the other vehicles do not. Chapter tactics on the dread would be pointless if he benefits anyways from everything.
Same as Black Templar Vehicles do not get Adamant will (except for the dread) and Imperial Fists vehicles do not have bolter drill and siege master (except for the dread).

I don't see how Iron Hands are the only ones always trying to argue that point while it seems clear for everybody else.

If you go down that road you can also argue that the Legion of the Damned do benefit from chapter tactics altough the lack the Special rule. As they are bought in a [chapter] detachment they qualify in the same way vehicles do.

The melta thing is a different beast as this rule comes from Hestan and it says every model in his detachment, which is reguardless of chapter tactics or not (so even a fortification and the legion of the damned would count)

[Vangrail]

Its just a weird rule take away. Like its not broken and helped here and there, but u were thankful for when it heppened lol. Just kinda a weird nerf. I also feel like they worded it dumbly because it should read Characters and Dreadnoughts then because nothing else has chapter tactics. Then it goes back to sally players again why do they reroll to wound with flamer weapons on tanks? Same with Imperial Fist vehicles dont get to the siege master rule against buildings.

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Another issue I have for it is that tournaments are ruling all vehicles get the rule. So its just interesting situation. Players say yes and no, tournaments say yes. Whats games workshop say? Feel like they are the official opinion. But I guess you could argue the chapter tactics represent living models and that is why dreadnoughts get it. Well at least I know I can use the supplement book for some reason I though I cant. That makes more cool conversions for me!

[Charon]

I also feel like they worded it dumbly because it should read Characters and Dreadnoughts then because nothing else has chapter tactics.

You never know what Dataslates, Supplements, Campaign books or Forgeworld might bring.


Then it goes back to sally players again why do they reroll to wound with flamer weapons on tanks? Same with Imperial Fist vehicles dont get to the siege master rule against buildings.

Don't know why they do it because according to the rules they are not allowed to do so. Next time you encounter such a player tell them that your Legion of the Damned got FnP from Iron Hands Chapter tactics. They do not have the special rule but they are part of the Iron Hand Detachment and have to be "Iron Hand Legion of the Damned" according to the logic applied to vehicles which also do not have the special rule but are part of the Iron Hand detachment.
Also try to find out which bonus Dreads get for actually having Chapter Tactics if they don't need it to get access to all special rules anyways.

[Vangrail]

Dreads get It will not die. So it helps them regain a hull point here and there. But I called my local gw and he says everything gets IWND. Then i emailed the rules guys from gw and I am waiting for the response.

[Charon]

I still have an e-mail from "the rules guys" (which are the mailorder guys) which allows me to confer infiltration from a character to a unit. On the other hand I have a second one that says it does not confer and they FAQed it later that you may not even join.

To say that the answers are highly unreliable is flattering.
You will have to wait for an official FAQ to settle it (will probably never happen, they do not support their products) until then it is up to you which version you want to play (AND to your opponent of course).
Strictly RAW it is "no". It is up to you how you negotiate it but from my POV the "no" faction has a better argument.

Out of interest... how would you handle the Legion of the Damned? No Chapter Tactics but part of the same detachment (which can only consist of one chapter) so they fullfill the same criteria as Vehicles when the chapter tactics say "all infantry units get X" ?
If you see them as an exception, why is that so?

[Haighus]

Out of interest... how would you handle the Legion of the Damned? No Chapter Tactics but part of the same detachment (which can only consist of one chapter) so they fullfill the same criteria as Vehicles when the chapter tactics say "all infantry units get X" ?
If you see them as an exception, why is that so?
Are Legion of the Damned still in the SM codex? I thought they would have pulled them out of it now they have their own 'Codex'.
Well, to answer your question, if I were to make such a houserule (because I think it is a houserule) I would not include Legion of the Damned for fluff reasons- it makes sense that Iron Hands tanks are tougher, but not that essentially temporarily attached troops gain Iron Hands benefits.

[Vangrail]

Well I Feel like all dreadnoughts and variants get it including contemptors. other tanks if they dont get it oh well. most of the times doesnt save them most tanks i use get wrecked and not hull pointed to death. Just gotta use a techmarine for repair then. legion of the damned dont get it because they are a different chapter and have their own supplement? idk

[Path Walker]

If you see them as an exception, why is that so?

Because some people don't need to be wheedly small idiots desperate for anything to hold over a company so don't need every little obvious thing explained to them?

[Charon]

legion of the damned dont get it because they are a different chapter and have their own supplement?

They are included in the Codex: Space Marines.
Now they can not be a "different" chapter because you are not allowed to include different chapters in the same detachment.

So they have to be either Iron Hands Legion of the damned (as they are from the iron hands detachment) or they have to be (lets call it) unaligned as they do meet criteria 1) (chosen as a part of an iron hands detachment) but do not meet criteria 2) (must have chapter tactics special rule). Same goes from my POV for vehicles without chapter tactics. They are part of the detachment but do not benefit from chapter tactics as they do not meet criteria 2)