why should i take a plasma gun?

[mrphatman]

hi i have seen plasma vs melta conversations before but now i'm going to put a twist on it, why should i take a plasma gun? so heres the facts plasma s7 ap2 melta gun s8 ap1, with that nowlege i would pick the melta becouse i would be useing it for tanks or heavy infintry, to be honest i don't like the plasma gun for 2 reasons 1. i play ig so for 5 pts less i get pluse one strenth and 1 ap, and 2. the "gets hot" rule, it just dosn't seem like its worth the points or the risk to me, but i belive in seeing both sides so i would like to know your opinion on the matter, so tell me why i should take a plasma gun? and that go's for plasma pistols as well

[eagleboy7259]

The general thought is that a plasma pistol is almost never worth the points that you pay for it. Usually the only models who have access to it are your squad leaders like veteran sergeants who pay out the cost of a whole additional squad member to get a gun that might only be fired 2-3 times a game and has the chance to blow them up in the process with a bad roll. Occasionally people might upgrade their assault marines with them or their vets for combi-plasma but its almost never worth it. Not to mention this is 5th ed, if you can't find a cover save your simply not doing it right.

Now to break away from that garbage that has been spoon fed to me since 5th edition arrived on the scene: there are more big scary monsters and more super resilient troops in the 40k world than there has ever been before. Think about it, before it was really only plague marines, some units from the demons codex, and the occasional monstrous critter. Now BA has Death Company and Priests which can give out Feel No Pain to any model within 12". SW showed up with Thunder Wolf Cavalry, Tyranids are more monstrous than before... and I can imagine the world is going to keep going that way.

While there truly is nothing that we can do about Assault Terminators and their 3++ saves for the most part plasma levels the field for the little man and the thugs that are running around now. It really depends on your local meta game and which end of the field you're playing on. If you're trying to get into assault then why bother with a plasma gun at all, chances are you will never get your points back since you're never going to sit still and fire it. On the other hand if you are playing an army like Crimson Fists with mass Stern Guard then I could see it being very effective, the ability to wipe out whole squads in a single round of shooting is disturbing. I've been playing around with marines, plasma, pods, and outflanking with some pretty effective results, usually if you can catch a tank on its rear armor its toast or in the open when it was counting on intervening models to save them. Even in a transport, I don't have to drive nearly as far to get the shaken and stunned results that stop you from blowing me up. Most mech armies use lots of little tanks so S7 compared to S8 isn't as much of a set back as people think, especially when you compare the fire rate.

The fact is this game is still very much a Space Marines paradise with tons of MEQ units running around so plasma will always have its place as the true marine killer. However like any special weapon you should take it en masse or not at all. Just my thoughts, although I know my spoon fed line is probably closest to what most people believe

[codiddy]

The general thought is that a plasma pistol is almost never worth the points that you pay for it. Usually the only models who have access to it are your squad leaders like veteran sergeants who pay out the cost of a whole additional squad member to get a gun that might only be fired 2-3 times a game and has the chance to blow them up in the process with a bad roll. Occasionally people might upgrade their assault marines with them or their vets for combi-plasma but its almost never worth it. Not to mention this is 5th ed, if you can't find a cover save your simply not doing it right.


Ha Ha I read this part and was getting ready to disagree with you untill i read the rest :)


To the OP, here is my take:

If you just want to kill things with an armor value, or plan on facing a ton of multi-wound T4 creatures (I'm looking at you Nids!) then the melta is the way to go. However the Plasma is incredibly versatile. With a plasma gun, you have twice the range of a melta, with double the shots at equal range. Ap 2 is going to punch any infantry's armor and deny FNP, making the melta's Ap1 overkill against anything without an armor value. I see plasma as best for taking out heavily armored infantry and monstrous creaturs, but in a pinch S7 can still take out light vehicles with ease.

[DarkLink]

Before the abundance of cover saves and the extra durability of tanks, plasma was quite popular. It's cheap, wounds almost everything on a 2+ and ignores armor. It can kill light vehicles, monstrous creatures, and models with high armor saves (which tend to be expensive and otherwise difficult to kill).

Now, with extra tough vehicles and plenty of cover, and everything costing exactly the same as in last edition, melta is the preferred choice. It's more utilitarian, usually.

Frankly, melta weapons should be more expensive now. They're extremely cheap and extremely available for what they do.

[gilbert93dt]

The main argument for the plasma gun over the melta gun is that the plasma has the same range as the bolter. This means the squad can act as a group, all firing their guns while staying at decent range. For the melta to do its job, you need to be within 12 inches, which is assault distance for many armies. This means if you are trying to kill a warrior instantly with that melta, next turn you will have bugs in your face. With the plasma, you can get off 2 turns of shooting, including 1 turn of within 12 inches rapid fire for both the plasma and the other bolters.

But, that is really the only reason for the plasma, the range.

[Xas]

you want the simple answer?

because it is rapid fire and so gets to shoot twice if within 12"


so to compare a plasma gun to a melta gun is the following:

24-19":
melta has no chance of doing anything. plasma can stay stationary and fire one shot.

18-13":
melta can move 6" and fire one s8 ap1 shot, risking a secured counter-charge if used against infantry. plasma can do the same and fire two s7 ap2 shots or stay stationary outside of infantry charge range and fire one s7 ap2 shot.
against tanks you have one s8 ap1 or two s7 ap2 shots if moving in.

12-0":
plasma still fires two s7 ap2 shots but cannot charge afterwards.
melta can move in 6" and fire on s8 ap1 shot that rolls 2d6 for penetration and afterwards charge.


as for the plasma pistol there are some instances where it is perfectly useless compared to the meltagun (chaos raptors can ADD either a melta or a plasma pistol which is 5 points more expensive ONTOP of their already pistol and sword weaponry. blood angels assoult marines at least loose 1 attack from the pistol if they replace it with a melta instead of a plasma pistol but still pay 5 points more).

on the other hand there is a single fact that means the pistol isnt useless: it can be given many modells which have no acces to meltaguns. most notable examples are most HQ modells. space marine heros, chaos heros, imperial guard commanders (not so important as he has 4 guys that can equip any special weapon you wish) and the like. it also can add another shot of armor ignoring, s7 hotness to many squads. yes the palsma pistol is as expensive as the gun for half the shots within 12" but sometimes that can be worth it.

the gun is good but the pistol is harder to be worth it (I often run a vet squad with 3 plasmaguns and 1 plasma pistol. 7 shots are better than 6, simple as that. run the same setup on a company command with a medic and plate armor and gets hot isnt that bad anymore).

[scadugenga]

Not to mention that the penalties for plasma aren't as bad as they were in 4th ed.

Now plasma only gets hot on the roll of a "1." Where in 4th it was dependent on the number of shots fired.

I run a Comp. Oommand Squad w/ 3 plasma, 1 pp, and a medic and carapace armor. That means in order for my to take a wound due to 'gets hot' I have to roll a 1 to hit, then fail a 4+ armor save and a 4+ FNP save. Makes it extremely durable, and at BS4, that's a lot of shots hitting the target unit.

Plasma definitely has it's place--if used wisely.

[Lerra]

One meltagun is more useful than one plasma gun. But, there is a tipping point which varies by army. If I already have a ton of melta, I am more likely to start adding plasma to the army. At 2000 points, I run 18 melta weapons and 3 plasma weapons. I find the plasma to be more useful than an extra 3 melta weapons.

[ColCorbane]

I wonder how long this debate is going to go on for before people realise that it's no different than comparing a grenade launcher and a flamer, they're two different weapons that are used for different roles and which one you decide to take depends completely on what role you want the unit to fulfil.

[Tynskel]

I wonder how long this debate is going to go on for before people realise that it's no different than comparing a grenade launcher and a flamer, they're two different weapons that are used for different roles and which one you decide to take depends completely on what role you want the unit to fulfil.

THis guy is pretty smart! :)

He's right- two different objectives--- one is anti-big

other is anti-stuff: Plasma can shoot just about anything- good range, lots of shots. Nice Strength, good AP.



Three Roles:

Anti-Tank Unit-- Meltas n' powerfist/melta bombs
Anti-Infantry Unit-- Frags Flamers
Multi-Purpose Unit-- Plasma!

I like to purchase Plasma Pistols for Sgts. Makes a great Zot! extra wound on opponents- especially right before a charge!

[mrphatman]

all right there are alot of good points thanks guys:D now i can think twice when it comes to takeing plasma kinda want to try it on a company command squad:p

[eagleboy7259]

I wonder how long this debate is going to go on for before people realise that it's no different than comparing a grenade launcher and a flamer, they're two different weapons that are used for different roles and which one you decide to take depends completely on what role you want the unit to fulfil.

People actually use grenade launchers?

[codiddy]

People actually use grenade launchers?
my IG buddy uses them all the time

[eagleboy7259]

Not to de-rail the conversation but why would one take a grenade launcher? I generally thought it was the weakest of the four weapons that was offered to squads, and doesn't it price out in between the flamer and meltagun in cost?

[Melissia]

An Imperial Guard Veteran Squad actually seems the best place to have plasma guns. Three BS4 plasmaguns firing out of a chimera = awesome.

[thehod]

I am in favor of a mixed approach to melta vs plasma in my veteran squads. Usually 2 meltas and 1 plasma. That is the equivalent of 4 shots at 12 and with an autocannon or lascannon, that also provides a nice threat both long range and short range firefight.

[Kahoolin]

Not to de-rail the conversation but why would one take a grenade launcher? I generally thought it was the weakest of the four weapons that was offered to squads, and doesn't it price out in between the flamer and meltagun in cost?I'm not sure what you mean by that. It costs the same as a flamer.

I use them in infantry platoon command squads. Makes them less of a target than a flamer bomb, and grenade launchers are cheap, dual-role, and blast weapons. Three blast templates on a squad of marines is going to hurt them in my experience (even with S3), all for the cost of ONE plasma gun. Grenade launchers may look weak on paper but they work OK for me.

On topic, I run vet meltas for anti-tank and plasma in my CCS for toasting marines. They each have a function and can't be directly compared, simple as that. That said I don't run much melta - I like to hit enemy armour with battle cannons as well as melta guns, keeps 'em on their toes :)

[Melissia]

Grenade Launchers are great on standard infantry squads and platoon command squads. Four GLs in one squad means you can make on average two S8 AP3 hits per turn at 24", and it's an assault weapon at that. Not too shabby for twenty points, whether it's at Marines or at AV12 or lower vehicles.

[Tynskel]

Grenade Launchers are great on standard infantry squads and platoon command squads. Four GLs in one squad means you can make on average two S8 AP3 hits per turn at 24", and it's an assault weapon at that. Not too shabby for twenty points, whether it's at Marines or at AV12 or lower vehicles.

I don't remember grenade launchers being S8 AP3

I thought they were S6 AP4

[pgarfunkle]

Yep for a krak gren they are S6 AP4

I'm coming back around to the use of plasma weapons in my squads, especially tactical squads that I don't fancy being too close to the enemy. The ability to shoot at the longer range is handy and as the squad is mostly shooting at infantry the extra strength and ap is usually overkill.

[Melissia]

ERr, my bad, I was thinking of missiles apparently. Regardless, even just two assured S6 hits can kill a transport, for example, for fairly cheap, and the blasts are nice even at S3.

[Lord Azaghul]

Well yes they serve different rolls.
But the both really should be the same cost, but because they were sooo awesome last ed...they are over costed this ed.

I do use them occationally, but pretty much only with my IG.

[Melissia]

Err, what? You mean grenade launchers are overcosted?

Uh... no?


If you mean plasmaguns, I'd actually still say no. Marines get them for cheap, and Guardsmen are already cheap anyway, with Veterans being quite able to pack plasmaguns in a chimera and have multiple squads and still have enough for tanks.

[eagleboy7259]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. It costs the same as a flamer.

I use them in infantry platoon command squads. Makes them less of a target than a flamer bomb, and grenade launchers are cheap, dual-role, and blast weapons. Three blast templates on a squad of marines is going to hurt them in my experience (even with S3), all for the cost of ONE plasma gun. Grenade launchers may look weak on paper but they work OK for me.

On topic, I run vet meltas for anti-tank and plasma in my CCS for toasting marines. They each have a function and can't be directly compared, simple as that. That said I don't run much melta - I like to hit enemy armour with battle cannons as well as melta guns, keeps 'em on their toes :)

I'm not really into the guard scene but in the old book it was 6pts for a Flamer, 8pts for a Grenade Launcher and I think 10 for either a Melta or Plasma Gun. Same with =][= Storm Troopers who could take Flamers for 5pts or a Grenade Launcher at cost with a Melta or Plasma Gun.

Speaking of the grenade launcher being over costed who the heck decided the pricing on the plasma guns in this edition? I get that its harder for you to blow yourself up with but since they nerfed the pistol and the blast weapon rules changed I usually find it hard to convince myself to take a pistol or cannon

[Lord Azaghul]

Speaking of the grenade launcher being over costed who the heck decided the pricing on the plasma guns in this edition? I get that its harder for you to blow yourself up with but since they nerfed the pistol and the blast weapon rules changed I usually find it hard to convince myself to take a pistol or cannon

I was commenting on the pricing of melta vs plasma. all non-vehcile plasma carries a stupid amount of risk for the points you pay.

New Guard book: grenade launch, sniper rifle, flamer, all 5 points. In fact execpt for the 1 point Search light upgrade for sentinals and the 3 point bolt gun update for officers everything in the new book is in 5 or 10 point incriments.

[Tynskel]

Plasma is rare.

That has always been a theme in 40k.

Plasma Pistols are for decorated officers/soldiers.


Plasma Cannons are difficult to come by.

However, they do rock--- but they have a very limited scope of application- Anti-heavy infantry.

[ColCorbane]

Plasma is rare.

Not in my army, we pack tons of the stuff!