Can an IC join a unit of Carnifexes?

[Lerra]

Most people seem to reject the idea on principle, but the rules seem to allow it.

"Independent characters are allowed to join other units. They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures)."

The restriction seems to be on units that always consist of a single model, not specifically on monstrous creatures. The parenthetical even says "most". Are there any other rules problems with an IC joining to a unit of carnifexes?

There aren't many ICs in the tyranid codex who would be a worthwhile addition to a squad of carnifexes, but in a team game there are some rather silly combos.

[Melissia]

I dunno. I don't think it was intended...

Seems to be rather squirrelly.

[gcsmith]

yes they can since they dont HAVE to consist of one model. Its things like DoM which cant be joined as he would normally be 1 model unless taking with a Indy.

[Mizzrym]

now i may be wrong, but I thought IC's couldn't join a unit of MC's will have to look in the book later but I believe there is something in there about that

[gcsmith]

It says may not join units of normally one model such as monsterous creatures which until now have been 1 model only

[Ferro]

An IC may join carnifexes because carnifexes now have the option to come in broods of more than one. Note that most other monstrous creatures are denied this possibility since their unit size is only ever one.

The many joys of attaching a Tyranid Prime to a Carnifex include:
majority toughness of 6!
easy cover!

[AbusePuppy]

I don't get how anyone could possibly be opposed to this, except by virtue of being grumpy and wanting to deny you things because they can. It's not a particularly strong option and the rules are quite clear that he is allowed to.


It says may not join units of normally one model such as monsterous creatures which until now have been 1 model only

Bzzzt, try again. It actually says "May not join units which always consist of one model, such as most monstrous creatures." (Emphasis mine.) The prohibition is against joining units that are always one strong- monstrous creatures are just an example of a common type of this unit.


I dunno. I don't think it was intended...

Seems to be rather squirrelly.

On what basis and how is it "squirrely"? I don't understand.

[Lerra]

On what basis and how is it "squirrely"? I don't understand.

It wasn't allowed in previous editions, and the rulebook doesn't come out and say in plain language that an IC may join carnifexes. It may be an intended change, or it may be an unintended consequence of the way the rules interact.

For 1v1 play, I don't mind. I have yet to see anything broken come from it. For 2v2 play, the possibilities are squirrelier.

[volrath8754]

SO could you use a lord to veil a Catan??? Just a thought not sure if it works or not???

[AbusePuppy]

It wasn't allowed in previous editions, and the rulebook does come out and say in plain language that an IC may join carnifexes. It may be an intended change, or it may be an unintended consequence of the way the rules interact.

For 1v1 play, I don't mind. I have yet to see anything broken come from it. For 2v2 play, the possibilities are squirrelier.

Obviously it's an unintentional change, but that doesn't make it unforseen. The fact that the rulebook does not explicitly permit is is irrelevant- there is no such rule specifically allowing ICs to join units of Tactical Marines or Thunderwolf Cavalry, either, but I can't imagine anyone calling either of those examples "squirrely."

The fact that many players don't realize it's a legal move is beside the point, because it doesn't rely on any kind of ambiguous language in the rulebook or odd loopholes. What an IC can and cannot join is spelled out in very specific detail, and if players overlook or misinterpret that, it is their own fault, not their opponent's. I know Marine players who still don't know how ATSKNF works with Sweeping Advances or regrouping, but that doesn't make using those rules (or the multi-charge rules, or Dreadnaught pivots, or any other poorly-understood section of the book) some sort of underhanded tactic. It is the responsibility of both players in a game to know the way the rules function. And, certainly, in many cases things are unclear or poorly written, but I simply don't see how that can be the case here.

[Tynskel]

This rule is not unclear or poorly written.

It is quite simple.

If the unit is a single model, you cannot join.

[Ferro]

Lolz, well actually Tynskel, when you phrase it like that it actually IS unclear.
An IC can join a single Tac marine.
An IC cannot join the Deathleaper.

Both of these are units of a single model.

[gcsmith]

If the unit chosen from the codex can ONLY BE A SINGLE MODEL, other than indipendent characters, Independent characters may not join them.

[DarkLink]

If the unit chosen from the codex can ONLY BE A SINGLE MODEL, other than indipendent characters, Independent characters may not join them.

And it works for ICs because ICs can join other units, meaning they aren't only ever a single model unit. Thus, ICs can join up with other ICs.

[Nabterayl]

Totally legal, for the reasons Lerra pointed out in the OP.

[BuFFo]

Yes, in a team game, if you want an IC to join a Carnifex squad/brood (whether it consists of a single Carnifex or multiple carnifexes), you can.

[Tynskel]

Totally legal, for the reasons Lerra pointed out in the OP.

You think this is OP?

Try it yourself- you'll find it is not overpowered.

There are two IC that can join the Bugs-- the Tyranid Prime and the Parasite of Mortrex.

Parasite of Mortrex would be stupid to join to Carnifexes--- they don't fly.

The Tyranid Prime is essentially a waste of one of its special abilities: enhancing warriors.

So, maybe you didn't take warriors (but why take a Prime, other than cheap HQ-- but at that point, take the Parasite)

The Prime is better in a squad of gaunts- just shear volume of wounds!
If you attach the Tyranid Prime to a Carnifex, they 'vindicator' your Carnifex. They score two wounds- the wounds are split between two models- now your Prime is dead.

The protection from the Carnifex is not as good as they sound to be. A gaunt squad or Warrior squad are better at soaking up wounds that would normally allocated to the Prime.

[Nabterayl]

You think this is OP?

Try it yourself- you'll find it is not overpowered.
"In the OP" = "in the original post."

[BuFFo]

You think this is OP?

On forums across the intertubes, OP means Original Post. Especially the way it is worded in sentence here.

[Chris Copeland]

The rules seem clear: it is perfectly legal to join a IC to a brood of Carnifexes. I'd say that it wouldn't add a lot tactically, though. I don't immiediately see a good reason to do so, is all I'm sayin'...

Chris

[ashnaile]

Attach 2 primes to a brood of 2 fexes and have access to possible 4+ cover saves and 14 toughness 6 wounds.

could also do 1:1 but 2:2 is just so much nastier hehe.

[Tynskel]

Attach 2 primes to a brood of 2 fexes and have access to possible 4+ cover saves and 14 toughness 6 wounds.

could also do 1:1 but 2:2 is just so much nastier hehe.

now, where do the Carnifexes gain cover saves?

They don't lose Monsterous Creature Status--- so the Primes would have cover saves, but the Monsterous Creatures would still have to have 50% of their body covered--- and now that the Primes are part of the unit, they don't count for covering 50% of the model...

[Lerra]

If the squad is in cover, the whole squad gets a cover save. The squad is in cover if half or more of the models are in cover. 2 primes in cover would grant a cover save to the whole unit.

[Culven]

now, where do the Carnifexes gain cover saves?
They don't lose Monsterous Creature Status--- so the Primes would have cover saves, but the Monsterous Creatures would still have to have 50% of their body covered--- and now that the Primes are part of the unit, they don't count for covering 50% of the model...
Units either have a Cover Save or they do not. It wouldn't be possible for the Primes to have a Cover Save if the Carnifecies don't. What can happen is that teh Primes are considered to be in cover, and the Carnefecies are not (due to not meeting the 50% actually obscured requirement). However, since 50% of the models in the Unit are in Cover, the entire unit would be granted a Cover Save. The strange part comes in when we look at the Vehicle Cover rules (to which the MC rules refer) and find that a Vehicle must be obscured to make use of a Cover Save. So, they Carnifecies may have a Cover Save from the Primes, but it could be argued that they cannot use it.

[ashnaile]

vehicles requires obscured because it allows them to use the save against glancing and penetrating hits instead of against wounds, as cover saves are only stated as used against wounds Unless obscured.

fexes have wounds so no problem there.

[Tynskel]

vehicles requires obscured because it allows them to use the save against glancing and penetrating hits instead of against wounds, as cover saves are only stated as used against wounds Unless obscured.

fexes have wounds so no problem there.

bwahhh?


read p. 51

The rules for cover saves for Monsterous Creatures are quite clear.

[Ferro]

Units either have a Cover Save or they do not. ... What can happen is that the Primes are considered to be in cover, and the Carnefecies are not (due to not meeting the 50% actually obscured requirement). However, since 50% of the models in the Unit are in Cover, the entire unit would be granted a Cover Save.
Yes. Exactly.

The strange part comes in when we look at the Vehicle Cover rules (to which the MC rules refer) and find that a Vehicle must be obscured to make use of a Cover Save. So, the Carnifecies may have a Cover Save from the Primes, but it could be argued that they cannot use it.
I don't see how, sir. Can you elaborate on that, because you seem to be contradicting yourself.

A single vehicle or MC must be obscured to get a cover save; a squadron of vehicles gets cover if half of the squadron is 50% obscured; a unit must have 50% of it's models in cover (regardless of which method is used to determine so) to get a cover save. In all cases, cover saves apply to the entire unit (if they apply at all).

If the Prime has his pinky toe obscured, then the carnifex he's attached to gets a cover save too.

[Tynskel]

Ok,

I dug a little deeper than you guys have.

p. 65

'Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron- use the rules for vehicles to determine each squadron member is in cover... and then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not.'

p. 65 solves this issue.

if you had, for example, two primes and two carnifexes, and the primes were in cover, the Carnifexes were not (as defined by vehicle rules on pages 62, and 65) the entire unit would receive cover saves.

However...

why would you do this?

yeah, so that unit would be 14 'toughness 6' wounds... but in reality they are not. This benefit would only be for shooting, and the benefit stops when the squadron is hit by a vindicator [or any Str 10 weapon(s) that causes multiple wounds]-- you are still T6 for the purpose of rolling to wound, but the Primes revert to T5 if a wound is allocated to them. Then they would be instant killed.

Even though you take a hit on the Toughness, hiding the Primes in gaunts would be better (if you are worried about instant death weapons) or just in a Warrior squad, where the unit benefits from the Prime's special abilities.

Essentially, this type of rules manipulation is to gain a minor minor benefit. Practically, tactically useless-- the type of thing one would benefit from once in a blue moon.

[synack]

Okay, so IC's can't join a single model MC unit, but if the unit comprises of 2 or more, it can.

What happens if the IC joining is a MC too? Since the MC is doing the joining and not being joined?

Basically, can a Tyrant join a Unit of two carnifexes?

[Tynskel]

well, Tyrants can't.

However, IF there is a IC MC, the enemy can always just target the IC. Those rules are under IC in the main rulebook.

[Ferro]

Okay, so IC's can't join a single model MC unit, but if the unit comprises of 2 or more, it can.
This is incorrect. And IC can join a single carnifex, or a single Tac Marine, or a single anything as long as it had the option to deploy as a larger unit.
The restriction depends on whether the unit must always be deployed as a single model (Tyrannofex, Harpy, Trygon, any unique model, etc). These models cannot be joined by an IC.
If the unit has the ability to deploy as a squad of more than one (Carnifex squad size of 1-3), then that unit may be joined by an IC, even if there's only a single model on the table.


What happens if the IC joining is a MC too? Since the MC is doing the joining and not being joined?
Basically, can a Tyrant join a Unit of two carnifexes?
I can't think of any units that are both IC and MC. If there are any, they are rare.
A Tyrant does not have the IC rule, so a Tyrant can't join anything. (Tyrant Guards have a rule which allow a Tyrant to join them, but this does not make the Tyrant an IC).

[LoverzCry]

*posted in wrong thread*