Battletome Everchosen, and Knights.

[Mr Mystery]

via games trust.de (http://www.gamestrust.de/bilder,list1275,1,white-dwarf-97.html)

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16569&d=1448887356

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16570&d=1448887356

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16571&d=1448887356

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16572&d=1448887356

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16573&d=1448887356

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16574&d=1448887356

[Kirsten]

can't see anything

[Mr Mystery]

They're showing up fine on my PC?

But not my iPad.

Hold on, shall reupload.

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Try it now.

[Kirsten]

hmm, interesting

[Mr Mystery]

Love the one with the hammer. Looks suitably brutal. Massive axe, not so much a fan.

[Kirsten]

need to see more of them really

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Ooooooh, shiny!

[Erik Setzer]

Honestly, it feels like a bunch of Warmachine figures that have just had more (unnecessary, really) "detail" added onto them. Not that amazing, just... "okay."

[Ray Rivers]

Sold!

[Just Tony]

Since I don't play AOS and have resolved to play Classichammer, my opinion of any new GW models are in their backwards compatibility for lack of a better term. That being said, those models could potentially make nice Lords on Daemon Mounts, if the scale creep isn't as bad as I fear it is.

Also, I would have expected more responses than this for as well as AOS is doing.

[Trojan66]

I really like them...not sure about the feet rather than hooves on one but they look like fun to paint and pretty striking.

[Cutter]

I really like them...not sure about the feet rather than hooves on one but they look like fun to paint and pretty striking.

And only 60 quid.

[Trojan66]

Your kidding...? That's great, the first thing I like since AOS came out and GW want to yank my trousers down.

[Mr Mystery]

They seem to be the same size, if not larger, than the Chaos Lords on Daemonic Steeds.

They're steep, but so nice.

I still want to see what other toys come with Everchosen.

[Path Walker]

Yeah, they are looking like they're pretty big models, much bigger than Chaos Knights, the price is steep but its pretty much in line with a box of new things that size.

The look ace and I would guess we're looking at 3 weapon options each? Probably quite a few other cool bits spread around too, I think my Rotbringers might need to throw their lot in with the Exalted Grand Marshall!

[Cutter]

Your kidding...? That's great, the first thing I like since AOS came out and GW want to yank my trousers down.

Well if you smile sweetly they might give you a reach round.

[Erik Setzer]

They seem to be the same size, if not larger, than the Chaos Lords on Daemonic Steeds.

But GW overprices character models "because they're characters," so now it's okay to overprice units because they're similar size to overpriced characters? Eh?

And if you just keep ramping up the size of the toy soldiers and increasing the price to go with it, AoS is going to end up with just 20 models a side tops because that's all that'll fit, and still cost as much as a full scale army in WFB despite its own prices getting out of hand in places (hi, Witch Elves!). For the half-dozen people who can afford that, I'm sure it'll be great fun, but if you destroyed your 30-year-old game whose IP is so popular it's still selling video games because people couldn't afford to play the game, maybe don't follow up with a game that you just keep running up the cost on until people have to pay as much but have a lot fewer models?

I'd really like to know what goes on in the pricing discussions. Or if they even have a Pricing team who looks at the market and determines prices based on what people can spend and are willing to spend and what competitors are priced at. Probably not... sometimes it's like they pride themselves on trying not to be a real company (which is weird, because it seems they have more suits involved these days than back when they had no problem with an editor calling himself "Fat Bloke" or showing pictures of a guy who looked like he belonged in an 80s metal band).

[Ray Rivers]

Actually, a lot of skirmish games have a lot less than 20 miniatures on the table top.

Amazes me a bit to see folks building gaming boards that have to cost an arm and leg only to plop a handful of minis that, in some cases such as infinity, you can barely see. Guess that is why they paint them so brightly.

The new knights are almost certainly bigger than the old ones. And I guarantee you, when you are playing Age of Sigmar with the new figures (which are 40mm not 28mm), you will have no problem seeing them.

The fact of the matter is, most people don't have the time to paint hundreds of minis anymore. Sure you see some folks putting on fantastic displays of historical battles in 28mm, but the young folks... they have too many other things to do than put hundreds of hours into painting stuff before they can even play it. I mean look at the guy who burned his Warhammer army... he had tons of unpainted or partially painted minis. When I, for example, got into wargaming the only distraction there was at home was the TV, and I used to paint with that on. So, we have moved into a new era where there are lots of competing forms of entertainment and miniature gaming has got to keep up if it is to survive.

As for the character models... I must say I was a bit skeptical on their pricing at first. But when you get your hands on them and paint them, they are loaded with so many details that they are worth the price. In fact, though most folks tend to paint their "Army" to one standard and their "Heros" to a better standard (to stand out), if you paint your heros to the same standard as your army (given you are not a complete novice) the models WILL stand out on the table top... guaranteed.

Now in this business (like most businesses) you pretty much have two major strategies if you want to make money: High Volume, Low Prices or Low Volume, High Prices. An example of High Volume, Low Prices is Zombicide. These folks make a small profit on what they sell, but because they sell a **** ton, they make lots of money. GW has obviously moved in the other direction into the Low Volume, High Price strategy which means they must produce very high quality miniatures, of which they make a lot of money, even if they don't sell a whole lot. You may not like that, but that is the way it is. Obviously box sets and specialty games are a separate category which offer lots of value for the money to just about anyone interested int he subject.

So the bottom line here is that world is changing and so is GW, obviously. The question is, is it a good idea? I personally think it is from a business POV because we have lots of converging technologies which are soon going to be slugging it out for the High Volume, Low Price niche (a niche which is already pretty saturated). 3D printing, for example, will radically change the High Volume Low, Price niche... and only the most agile producers will be able to cope with that change.

So yea, when you look at the future, technology and slave based global economic competition the wisest move isn't to try to compete against these forces but to side step them and produce Great Product... similar to what Germany produces (and it is not just cars, believe me), and not compete with these folks at all.

You want cheap minis... buy from China. You want high quality minis... then you look at folks like Infinity and GW, who make their stuff at home.

[Erik Setzer]

There's a difference between having 20 models because that's the typical size of the game, and having just 20 models because they're all so big you can't put any more on the table.

I can get high quality minis without spending a ridiculous amount. I can even get "solid quality" minis for what, next to this stuff, is insanely cheap and almost giving it away (yet at one point would have been the expected price for GW's stuff).

If GW's going to ultra-uber-niche, so they can sell a few items with a really high price point, they're going to eventually kill themselves, or just become irrelevant. If very few people can afford their products, then they'll be stuck relying on 3rd parties to promote their IP, which could be a disaster, especially in the Warhammer world where all the licensed stuff is a different setting than the current miniatures.

But hey, maybe GW right now is deciding they don't want most of us to be customers. Maybe GW's telling us all to go take our money to competitors. Stupid business decision, especially when your sales are falling, but hey, if that's what they want me to do, I suppose I can oblige...

[Trojan66]

I agree with Eric on this...the whole point of AOS is to get more people playing fantasy ( and in the longer term to bring both warhammer systems together as one; but let's not get into that now) but if they keep ramping up the size and price of figures it's not going to work. I still love these guys though, properly naughty chaos dudes

[Path Walker]

But hey, maybe GW right now is deciding they don't want most of us to be customers. Maybe GW's telling us all to go take our money to competitors. Stupid business decision, especially when your sales are falling, but hey, if that's what they want me to do, I suppose I can oblige...

I swear this is like the 15th time you've said this and you're still not getting the hint.

[Ray Rivers]

I agree with Eric on this...the whole point of AOS is to get more people playing fantasy

Is it?

[Mr Mystery]

I want to see 'in-scale' shots of these bad boys.

If they're as big as I think they are, the £60 price tag won't fuss me much, as they're undeniably gorgeous models.

[Ray Rivers]

But hey, maybe GW right now is deciding they don't want most of us to be customers. Maybe GW's telling us all to go take our money to competitors. Stupid business decision, especially when your sales are falling, but hey, if that's what they want me to do, I suppose I can oblige...

If all they wanted was sales, then they would offer crappy plastic minis like you find in games such as Zombicide.

In a total saturated market, that's insane. People don't need to go GW shops to play warhammer. They don't need to buy GW products either and many, if not most probably don't.

Let's say you are running a GW shop, which would you prefer 1) a group of 20 folks who take up a bunch of room playing on your gaming boards who don't buy any product or 2) a handful of folks who drop by every now and then for a pick-up game but every time they walk into your store are buying product?

I would choose number 2. Sorry, paying customers first.

And that is why all this babble going on about how nobody is playing AoS in the local shop over at Dakka Dakka is total trivia. I mean, dam n, if you believe all the crap on the net, then Ron Paul should be President of the United States.

The bottom line for everyone to understand is that GW isn't interested in growing an already saturated market, it is carving out it's own profitable niche in fantasy wargaming. When I changed from Coke to Pepsi, my sales remained steady, but because the price of the product was 25% less, my profit increased, but then again my business model is High Volume, Low Prices.

And the niche they are creating is totally unique. If you want to play AoS or are interested in their product, you need GW. If, OTOH you want to play Warhammer, Frostgrave or pretty much ANY fantasy game, you don't need GW to do that. I repeat, you do not need GW to do that, so why should they pander to you?

So yea Eric, if you're not interested in what GW has to offer... and really what could they offer to you that everyone else hasn't ripped off from the company already... they are not really interested in you either, nor would I be.

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I want to see 'in-scale' shots of these bad boys.

If they're as big as I think they are, the £60 price tag won't fuss me much, as they're undeniably gorgeous models.

THAT is the problem with these miniatures...

So a normal Joe like me who ends up with eyes watering and headaches trying to paint these tinsy bitsy details on Infinity models all of a sudden finds he can actually see and paint ALL the details if we wants without all that suffering and have a fantastic result...

THAT is the problem with these miniatures...

SOLD

[Ray Rivers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztk35YzCCQg

:eek: :)

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

They're massive

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

ok, so is this battletome/codex just for Archeon and his elite then?

[Ray Rivers]

ok, so is this battletome/codex just for Archeon and his elite then?

Appears to me that the Everchosen are a new faction in the Chaos Grand Alliance. I would imagine there will be more releases and possibly picture previews in the Battletome.

[Cutter]

I swear this is like the 15th time you've said this and you're still not getting the hint.

S/He who Walks the Path has a point Erik, you just have to take the final step emotionally, intellectually and most importantly financially.

GW don't want my money, but unlike you (it seems) I don't really want to give GW my money, so it's a win-win really.

Join us.

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Is it?

No, it really isn't.

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If all they wanted was sales, then they would offer crappy plastic minis like you find in games such as Zombicide.

In a total saturated market, that's insane. People don't need to go GW shops to play warhammer. They don't need to buy GW products either and many, if not most probably don't.

Let's say you are running a GW shop, which would you prefer 1) a group of 20 folks who take up a bunch of room playing on your gaming boards who don't buy any product or 2) a handful of folks who drop by every now and then for a pick-up game but every time they walk into your store are buying product?

I would choose number 2. Sorry, paying customers first.

And that is why all this babble going on about how nobody is playing AoS in the local shop over at Dakka Dakka is total trivia. I mean, dam n, if you believe all the crap on the net, then Ron Paul should be President of the United States.

The bottom line for everyone to understand is that GW isn't interested in growing an already saturated market, it is carving out it's own profitable niche in fantasy wargaming. When I changed from Coke to Pepsi, my sales remained steady, but because the price of the product was 25% less, my profit increased, but then again my business model is High Volume, Low Prices.

And the niche they are creating is totally unique. If you want to play AoS or are interested in their product, you need GW. If, OTOH you want to play Warhammer, Frostgrave or pretty much ANY fantasy game, you don't need GW to do that. I repeat, you do not need GW to do that, so why should they pander to you?

So yea Eric, if you're not interested in what GW has to offer... and really what could they offer to you that everyone else hasn't ripped off from the company already... they are not really interested in you either, nor would I be.

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THAT is the problem with these miniatures...

So a normal Joe like me who ends up with eyes watering and headaches trying to paint these tinsy bitsy details on Infinity models all of a sudden finds he can actually see and paint ALL the details if we wants without all that suffering and have a fantastic result...

THAT is the problem with these miniatures...

SOLD

Hmm, Pepsi.

[Erik Setzer]

Their niche is only "profitable" for as long as they can keep finding costs to cut and salaries to freeze. Eventually if they don't unfreeze salaries that will get good employees to leave, and cutting costs eventually cuts hardcore into quality. They want more revenue, so they can't push for a "niche." Your words don't match the reality that they're holding their employees' raises hostage if they don't get revenue growth. Revenue growth doesn't come from becoming more niche, because the only way to make that happen is keep pushing more and more expensive products and hope that some incredibly rich people suddenly decide your hobby is for them. So if their plan is to go more niche and still try to increase revenue while also trying to open stores and get into toy stores and book stores (which would be trying to hit a more mainstream audience), then they are even dumber than my lowest view of them already suspected them to be. (And I find it amusing that people so often, in attempting to defend GW's policies, actually just help point out how insanely stupid they are for a company looking to get more money.)

If they don't want my money, that's fine. Seems soon they're going to be deciding the entire northeast Florida and southeast Georgia region isn't good enough to be their customers. I'll gladly give my money to someone else. Bad enough it's to a point where you have to buy a $150 boxed set to even be able to enter a campaign, and events taking up all the store's tables are "invite only" so even if people wanted to play games with their pricey toys they couldn't.

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More on topic... (sort of)

Saw Archaon in a match last night. Granted, he was going against Lizardmen, but it was the store manager's army and he's rusty on AoS (VERY rusty). Archaon only lasted to the middle of the second turn's Shooting Phase. Got hammered with mortal wounds, wasn't able to save them. Seems he can shrug off all the little stuff, but throw big stuff at him and he'll go poof soon enough. Still was kind of silly to see a giant swarm of Saurus Warriors who not only couldn't hurt him, but actually were taking wounds from trying to attack him.

He's very, very killy, but if your opponent brings the right uber-killy stuff, he can die. So... rock-paper-scissors, basically.

[Cutter]

Their niche is only "profitable" for as long as they can keep finding costs to cut and salaries to freeze. Eventually if they don't unfreeze salaries that will get good employees to leave, and cutting costs eventually cuts hardcore into quality. They want more revenue, so they can't push for a "niche." Your words don't match the reality that they're holding their employees' raises hostage if they don't get revenue growth. Revenue growth doesn't come from becoming more niche, because the only way to make that happen is keep pushing more and more expensive products and hope that some incredibly rich people suddenly decide your hobby is for them. So if their plan is to go more niche and still try to increase revenue while also trying to open stores and get into toy stores and book stores (which would be trying to hit a more mainstream audience), then they are even dumber than my lowest view of them already suspected them to be. (And I find it amusing that people so often, in attempting to defend GW's policies, actually just help point out how insanely stupid they are for a company looking to get more money.)

If they don't want my money, that's fine. Seems soon they're going to be deciding the entire northeast Florida and southeast Georgia region isn't good enough to be their customers. I'll gladly give my money to someone else. Bad enough it's to a point where you have to buy a $150 boxed set to even be able to enter a campaign, and events taking up all the store's tables are "invite only" so even if people wanted to play games with their pricey toys they couldn't.

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More on topic... (sort of)

Saw Archaon in a match last night. Granted, he was going against Lizardmen, but it was the store manager's army and he's rusty on AoS (VERY rusty). Archaon only lasted to the middle of the second turn's Shooting Phase. Got hammered with mortal wounds, wasn't able to save them. Seems he can shrug off all the little stuff, but throw big stuff at him and he'll go poof soon enough. Still was kind of silly to see a giant swarm of Saurus Warriors who not only couldn't hurt him, but actually were taking wounds from trying to attack him.

He's very, very killy, but if your opponent brings the right uber-killy stuff, he can die. So... rock-paper-scissors, basically.

'Good' is relative old bean, bear in mind,

"At Games Workshop we are looking for people who will do their best to understand the needs of the company and to put those needs first when they are at work. Because of this we believe that what you are like, hence the attitude you show to work and the way you choose to behave is even more important than your skills or experience."

It's not a zero sum game but in my experience good for GW is often bad for everyone else.

[Trojan66]

Well, I can tell everyone is overcome with excitement at the release of the tzeentch Lord on disk this week !
I can't blame you. It's not exactly original...or even good. If you want a tzeentch disc rider, what's wrong with the tzeentch daemonic chariot ? You get loads of cool extra bits too.
I guess the real question is what's next, what is this fella going to pull through the realm gates ?

[Cutter]

Well, I can tell everyone is overcome with excitement at the release of the tzeentch Lord on disk this week !
I can't blame you. It's not exactly original...or even good. If you want a tzeentch disc rider, what's wrong with the tzeentch daemonic chariot ? You get loads of cool extra bits too.
I guess the real question is what's next, what is this fella going to pull through the realm gates ?

As a homage to SFX vision of GDT it's not bad, and certainly worth a tenner of anyone's money.

[Erik Setzer]

My biggest problem with the model is that it's designed to only be built one way (a common theme with recent GW releases), though according to the fluff there's very few of them around, so *in theory* someone wouldn't have more than one (though in AoS, you can have ten Archaon's if you want to).

But more than that, I wanted to find the person who writes their marketing blurbs and punch him so hard he'll have lights dancing in his vision for the next month. They called it "faceless," despite it having a mouth (which is part of a face)... and those eyes on the helmet-like stalk things coming out of his head might be functional as well, meaning he has eyes and a mouth. If missing a nose makes someone "faceless," then I guess Voldemort is "faceless," as is anyone who's had an accident and lost their nose. It's like they throw out buzzwords they think are "cool" even though they make absolutely no sense. If you're a miniatures company, you should know better than to claim a miniature with a face is "faceless."

[Cutter]

My biggest problem with the model is that it's designed to only be built one way (a common theme with recent GW releases), though according to the fluff there's very few of them around, so *in theory* someone wouldn't have more than one (though in AoS, you can have ten Archaon's if you want to).

But more than that, I wanted to find the person who writes their marketing blurbs and punch him so hard he'll have lights dancing in his vision for the next month. They called it "faceless," despite it having a mouth (which is part of a face)... and those eyes on the helmet-like stalk things coming out of his head might be functional as well, meaning he has eyes and a mouth. If missing a nose makes someone "faceless," then I guess Voldemort is "faceless," as is anyone who's had an accident and lost their nose. It's like they throw out buzzwords they think are "cool" even though they make absolutely no sense. If you're a miniatures company, you should know better than to claim a miniature with a face is "faceless."

It's just a copy writing job Erik. They know it's meaningless rhubarb, we know it's meaningless rhubarb, try not to get too hooked up on it.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Did anyone get this battletome yet? What else is in it beside Archeon, Gaunt Summoner and Varanguard. Surely it has more than that...

[Mr Mystery]

From what I understand, that's your lot units wise, barring various formations.

I'm in it for the background. Which reminds me. I really, really need to go back to my background thread and add synopses of the missing Battletomes....

[Erik Setzer]

It's just a copy writing job Erik. They know it's meaningless rhubarb, we know it's meaningless rhubarb, try not to get too hooked up on it.

It's sloppy marketing. Maybe their customers don't care, but that's no reason to admit that you think your customers just don't care what you say.