Space Marines vs. Chaos Space Marines

[Oden_Criteria]

I have been ruminating on this choice for some time now. I want to start a small army of either normal or Chaos Space Marines, but I'm not sure which one I should get. Unfortunately, I am not rich, so my purchase cannot be too extravagant. Any opinions on which faction is better? Any ideas for good starter armies? Thanks for your feedback!

[YorkNecromancer]

Cheat.

Buy 'Betrayal at Calth' boxes; paint your models up as Dark Angels. Get a Cypher model or just convert one (it's a doddle).

Suddenly you have a Dark Angel 30K force and a perfectly valid and utterly awesome 40K Fallen Angel army.

Add a handful of 40K Chaos models over time to season the main force. You could use the 'Dark Vengeance' set for a superb selection of bits.

[Charon]

1) Get a "Betrayal at Calth" Box. For GW standards it contains good value.
2) Make up your own color scheme.
3) Use them as a Renegade Chapter.
3a) Look at the Codex Chaos Space Marines.
3b) Ask on the forums if this Codex is a bad joke.
3c) Wait for confirmation that CSM just suck.
4) Forget about the Renegades and call them "Sons of Shangri-La"
4a) Look at Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Blood Angels, Kauyon and Mont'ka and giggle.
4b) Don't bother to choose a Parent Chapter for your "Sons of Shangi-La" and switch Capter Tactics and Formations as you see fit.
4c) Wonder why you ever thought about playing CSM.
5) Have fun games with your Space Marines Chapter.

[Talon of Anathrax]

I must sadly agree with the last few posters: unless you absolutely love the fluff of CSM, don't bother with them - they're really terrible in-game right now. Of course if you decide to play lists with Renegades and Heretics or Daemons they can be pretty good, and they have one or two semi-competitive lists, but if you want to play power armoured dudes don't try CSM.
If you're hesitating, look through the Marine chapters and pick one you love! Forge World has loads of good stuff for you (ever heard of Carcharodons or Red Scorpions? Some people love the Minotaurs, Raptors, Mantis warriors, Executioners, Red Hunters, Angels Revenant, Star Phantoms, Fire Hawks... There's loads of choice out there!), and as has been said before, some can even be played as both loyalists and CSM if you feel like it! Alpha Legion and Dark Angels are the best at this - some models will need some slight changes of course (scouts and Maulerfiends are the biggest offenders here), but it works very well.
Note that the Battle for Calth box is great value and has great models if you're looking to start either side (or their 30k equivalent). The standard Dark Vengeance box is also good for expanding (especially if you have some conversion skills to make the models mathc your chosen faction - unlike the Battle for Calth box, these ones have insigna and stuf!f), unless you already are decided on something like the recently updated White Scars and Raven Guard or one of the Forge World chapters I mentioned which have their own specific playstyle.
Tell us what you love about CSM and we can suggest Marine chapters for you, if you're still hesitating! Or what kind of playstyle and background you find great, and there'll be a chapter for you! Otherwise I suggest using 1d4chan or Lexicanum, they have some good information too.

Still stuck? Look at this! http://thegoodthebadtheinsulting.blogspot.fr/2015/08/10-underrated-space-marine-chapters-who.html

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Whilst I agree that 'Betrayal at Calth' is the udeal starter box for any kind of Astartes, I'm not in agreement RE:CSM sucking. The book is a tad dated though, so they currently aren't top-tier tourny fodder if you care about that sort of thing.
Just do what you feel is thematically coolest.

[Charon]

I'm not in agreement RE:CSM sucking. The book is a tad dated though, so they currently aren't top-tier tourny fodder if you care about that sort of thing.

You do not need to play on a tourney level to figure out that a Space Marine without ATSKNF, Chapter tactics, combat doctrines, combat squads, a great variety of special and heavy weapons, Transport options that MUST issue and accept challenges is a lot worse than a Space Marines who gets all of this for just 1 point difference.
And as everything that contains a Space Marine at base (Assault Squads, Devastor Squads,...) also contains that difference you really really really don't have to play a tourney to figure out that 43 Iron Warriors on one side vs 40 Imperial Fists on the other side is quite heavily in favour of the Fists.

[Djbz]

Whilst I agree that 'Betrayal at Calth' is the udeal starter box for any kind of Astartes, I'm not in agreement RE:CSM sucking. The book is a tad dated though, so they currently aren't top-tier tourny fodder if you care about that sort of thing.
Just do what you feel is thematically coolest.
Well apart from almost every chaos space marine unit is outdone (for cheaper) by the imperial equivalent (biggest descrepency Techmarine compared to a Warsmith)
And their relics are just awful, most of their unique gear is far too expensive.

And this gap has only gotten bigger as they keep giving loyalist marines more stuff.

Of all the things chaos space marines have, the only thing they really have going for them over their loyalist brethren is daemonicly possesed vindicators resisting crew stunned/shaken. And dirge casters

[Sly]

CSM is competitive with a Forge World-heavy list (Heretics & Renegades, open-topped Flying Transports, some nice fire-support Tanks and Flyers). Without that, it's pretty weak. On base units, it's clearly worse than SM, perhaps even to the point where it's not competitive there. And it also lacks any "wow, this is good" units that can make some lists such as Centurions and Bikes with Hit & Run.

So you can play CSM with a small force of CSM supporting/leading some Heretics/Renegades, or you can do a Flyer-heavy list with several Drop Pods, Heldrakes, Hell Talons/Hell Blades, etc, and those are competitive. I don't know if there's anything else that is competitive.

[henrythesecond]

As others have said, either of the box sets, 'Betrayal at Calth' or 'Dark Vengeance' will provide a less expensive boost to a starter army.

To decide between either Chaos or Imperial Space Marines has to be made based upon your gaming/hobby preferences.

If your enjoyment of 40k, or gaming in general, is based upon standing a better chance of winning any given battle, then Imperial Space Marines are the clear choice. It's worth bearing in mind that this applies only in the current meta, and is subject to change when/if the new Chaos Space Marine codex is released. But it also may not change; what can I say, it's Games Workshop. And CSM.

However, if your hobby pleasure does not rely heavily on playing a competitive army, then simply read all the fluff and background you can get your hands on, trawl (not troll) the internet, codexes and old White Dwarfs for all the pictures you can until a Space Marine chapter (imperial or chaos) speaks to you and begs or dares you to create them. That'll be the one for you.

At least that's what I've done. A lot of times.

[Oden_Criteria]

Thank you all for your advice! I have searched through the Internet and various wikis, and the chapters that have caught my eye are Imperial Fists and Blood Angels for the Imperials, and Iron Warriors for Chaos. I will probably get Betrayal at Calth and paint them as Imperial Fists. However, I was wondering if I could/should use them as a 40k army as well as a 30k. Also, thank you for indulging me and my noob-ish questions. :)

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Thank you all for your advice! I have searched through the Internet and various wikis, and the chapters that have caught my eye are Imperial Fists and Blood Angels for the Imperials, and Iron Warriors for Chaos. I will probably get Betrayal at Calth and paint them as Imperial Fists. However, I was wondering if I could/should use them as a 40k army as well as a 30k. Also, thank you for indulging me and my noob-ish questions. :)

40K loyalists to 30K loyalists presents some increased problems vs traitors as the CSM units are structurally more similar in many ways.
That saud, a Pride of the Legion 30k army (elite heavy) can work.
Just started a 5000pt 30k/40k army, Wordbearers PotL/Slaaneshi Wordbearers (because who doesn't love I5 marines with fearless anf FnP?) Using 2x B@C and it works very well.

[acprince]

I am a big fan of the dark vengeance box, I bought 4 of them when they came out. The dark angels come with 3 bikes, 5 terminators, a ten man tactical squad, Chaos has a hell brute two units of ten cultists and a group of chosen, there are HQ units for both too. with access to some cheap bits from my local hobby store sidewalk sale, I found it easy enough to convert the entire set into one army. I can run them as chaos, standard codex marines with allied imperial guard, or dark angels with allied imperial guard. if you want to do this with only one box, I recommend you trade your 6 chosen for 6 or more cultists, they are beautiful models, but they are kitted out in possibly the worst options possible, and would be hard to pass off as imperials. the hell brute is basically a dreadnaught. besides the chosen the only other model I don't field all the time is my chaos lord, who I made into a custom typhus so that I could make the cultists into fearless zombies when I want to.

[Path Walker]

Don't let those posters before put you off Chaos!

If you want to player Chaos, play Chaos! They have a strong theme, loads of room for cool paint jobs and conversions and some really fun rules.
The naysayers are people who never play but post a lot online bout how bad they think the game is, truth is, who you play with matters more than how "strong" people online think your army is. If you play with people you know and like and you all trust each other to care more about everyone having a good time than who will win all the games then, with that attitude, a ton of missions and a cool idea for a story, you're going to have a good time no matter what.

As for Imperial Fists from your Betrayal at Calth set

For the 30 Power Armoured duders, set them up as three 10 man Veteran Legion Tactical Squads for Horus Heresy, ie; With a Special Weapon (flamer, plasma or Melta, might as well go for one of each ;) ) and Missile Launcher/ Heavy Bolter, then they are usable for both 40k and 30k

The Terminators would have to have all Combi-Bolters/Power fists(option of a Sword for the Sarge because it looks cool) or all Lightning Claws to be a usable unit in 40k, either as a Terminator Squad or a Terminator Assault Squad

Dreadnought can be used as a Contemptor in both, if you have the rules or just as a standard Dreadnought in 40K, both the weapon options are usable for both games.

The Praetor is a Captain in Terminator Armour, with a chainfist and a combi-melta

Chaplain - These are really different in purpose in 30k and 40k, in the Heresy they were supposedly used to keep watch for pskyers and librarians using their banned powers as well as to be political officers in the Legions but a lot were either Word Bearers seconded to the Legions or subverted to their cause and would set up similar structures to the clandestine warrior lodges and cement support for the Warmaster.

So, while Imperial Fists can use a Chaplain in the Hours Heresy, the question is would they? I personally don't think the Imperial Fists, especially once the Heresy is revealed, would make much use of the tool Lorgar used to infiltrate the Legions, so he might be best painted black and used only for 40k games, you're not missing out on much by leaving a Chaplain at home for 30K.

Anyway, with 3 Veteran Tactical Squads, a Terminator Squad, Contemptor and a Praetor, you have a solid base for a Horus Heresy army. 3 Tactical Squads, Terminators, Dreadnought a Captain and a Chaplain isn't too bad a start for 40k either!

[son_of_volmer]

I've been a long time collector of Blood Angels, and for the longest time I was not sure if I wanted to use Betrayal at Calth to amplify my collection... then I realized, the blood Angel scheme I have is basically the Word Bearer Scheme, and then it was set. I can flip flop between Traitor and Loyalist! I mean a red marine is a red marine.

If red isn't your colour you could also flip flop between Ultramarine and Alpha Legion, they're both blue, I feel in 40k Alpha Legion are not so overly corrupted anyways.

I think a lot of people do this straddling thing. I've heard of armies that straddle Vanilla Marine, Blood angels and Thousand Suns, with a red Blood Ravens theme, hell, it can even dip over to Dark Angel Raven guard.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Most people have more experience with the tournament environment than me, so I'll bow to their expertise in the competitive meta.

However, try playing with a 40% Troops requirement. It smooths out the differences between good dexes and mediocre ones.

Chaos does have a FEW advantages over loyalists.

non-named ML 3 psykers

Cheap Cultists to use as fodder/bubble wrap

Optional bolter/bolt pistol/ccw combo

Squads that can take 2 special weapons i/o a special and a heavy

Transports that don't lose transport capacity or fire points when armed with decent weapons (Rhinos with havoc launchers as opposed to Razorbacks)

Obliterators

Just off the top of my head.