Just when did Horus lose?

[Mr Mystery]

Afternoon.

Bit of a poser here for those familiar with the expanding background of the Horus Heresy.

As per the title - just when did Horus lose?

Now the obvious answer 'when the Emperor mind-bulleted him to death' isn't what I'm looking for.

Instead, I'm wanting to explore the decisions made during the conflict as a whole - so really from the start of the Isstvan cleansing, right up to the final moments on his Battlebarge.

Quick comparison? World War 2. The war wasn't won when Berlin was taken - instead, that was just the final event of a long chain of disasters. Some feel it was when they opened up the Eastern Front, and provoked Russia. Others argue it was The Battle of Britain, in which the German war machine was dealt it's first serious defeat.

So that sort of thing. What was Horus' first blunder? Was it one of his allies who cost him the initiative required to strike before the rest of the Imperium could gird itself - or was it his own hubris?

Right. Off you go :)

[Path Walker]

Interesting question, depends how badly you would call it losing, obviously even the first moment of turning against the Emperor means he was doomed to fail, after all, the big E has been manipulating human history since day one, its massively unlikely he was blind to what would happen once he made Horus Warmaster. Horus was always going to rise against the Emperor and the Emperor would always beat Horus, I think the events in the novel Vengeful Spirit is important to this though SPOILER WARNING FOR VENGEFUL SPIRIT

Sort of, I mean, its still a great book and I'm keeping the spoiler vague in case you ignore this

In fact, the book is vague in the same way I am being too, its an unknown quantity

But really, if you've not read Vengeful Spirit and do want to, this is best left unspoiled so stop reading.


OK, I don't think the Emperor expected Horus to go in to the chamber beneath Molech, I think he considered his mind games and everything else he put in place enough to protect whatever was down there and Horus getting his hands on it levelled the playing field more then E-Unit would have wanted. Its also the event that damns Horus and all of humanity into the slow, downward spiral of death over the next 10,000 years. He was always going to lose and I think the Emperor wanted that, what civilisation hasn't needed a good civil war to show everyone exactly who is in charge and conveniently whittle away the Legionnes Astartes which were coming up to the end of their shelf life anyway?

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'd say that when he had to commit ground forces to Istvaan was the start of his plans unravelling. Also losing certain Primarchs that he had been certain would join him. Mainly Istvaan, the idea was that he'd wipe out those loyalists in one, fell swoop and continue to hold the initiative and have the loyalist forces on the back foot. Tarvitz getting the word out allowed the Eisenstein to flee and warn Dorn and the Emperor, allowed the survivors to delay the Warmaster's forces as much as possible, and meant they then had to do the Istvaan V battle to handle the reinforcements that came in.

[Path Walker]

The Emperor was already fortifying Terra, he recalled most of the VIIth with him. He knew there was going to be a betrayal at some point. I don't think an early warning out have been as valuable as that, given that it allowed what he did on Istvaan V, Angron being Angron was probably either a stroke of luck or an extremely well calculated move, without the Dropsite Massacre, which was only possible thanks to the early warnings of his betrayal, he'd have had a much harder time of the longer fight.

[Subexarch]

He lost the moment he began conspiring against the emperor of all mankind. Never stood a chance actually.

[Captain Bubonicus]

It was the moment Horus realized he wasn't Rogal Freaking Dorn.

DOOOOOOORN!!!

[Nogle]

It was the moment he lowered his shields. Which he has to do since imperial reinforcements were incoming.

[Alaric]

I'd say that when he had to commit ground forces to Istvaan was the start of his plans unravelling. Also losing certain Primarchs that he had been certain would join him. Mainly Istvaan, the idea was that he'd wipe out those loyalists in one, fell swoop and continue to hold the initiative and have the loyalist forces on the back foot. Tarvitz getting the word out allowed the Eisenstein to flee and warn Dorn and the Emperor, allowed the survivors to delay the Warmaster's forces as much as possible, and meant they then had to do the Istvaan V battle to handle the reinforcements that came in.

This. Thanks for saving me the time to type it out ;) Isstvan was just the first in a long series of small little foibles that all added up in the end.

I wish Skrall woulda killed Horus. Favorite character.

[Denzark]

It was the moment he lowered his shields. Which he has to do since imperial reinforcements were incoming.

Tzeentch made him do it...

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Mmm. Mebbe when he turned to Chaos. If he had just been a non-chaos aligned rebel he may have swung some of the primarchs he needed. I don't reckon orgy-tastic allies with daemons in their heads, or diseased surly nobbers make the best henchmen...

[Katharon]

To play off what Path Walker said, I believe it started when Horus decided he'd follow the Emperor's footsteps to Molech and beyond. The Emperor made his journey alone and at a time when he was not the center of a galaxy-spanning Empire. He used guile and subterfuge to gain whatever it was he gained on Molech (I personally dislike the Molech idea, since I prefer the original origin story of the Emperor's power, but that's for another time). By the time the Emperor gained the physical position and mantle of His title, he had gained control of Terra and had made a pact with Mars.

Horus, on the other hand, for all of his cunning and planning -- for all that he managed to turn fully half of the Space Marine Legions to his banner -- he was stupid in how he spent his forces. The primary reason behind his lunge for Terra was because he knew and anyone else that cared to think for a moment knew that once gathered, the combined armies the Emperor could call upon would crush Horus. It's why he relied upon fear, propaganda, and the Alpha Legion so heavily. It's why he didn't stop Lorgar (one of the largest legions at his command at the start of the Heresy) from enacting the Ruinstorm.

He had to keep the Imperium of Man off-balance, keep it's forces separated, and strike as hard as possible at it's heart. Once his primary strike failed to succeed [big spoiler: Terra doesn't fall] then his arrow was spent, as they say. Even with allies among the new Dark Mechanicus, he had no way of renewing his numbers, fleets, or armories; not like he had at the beginning of the Heresy.

So in effect, his very actions of trying to force the Imperium off balance, the reckless methods he took to gain personal power by following in the Emperor's wake, and by failing to bring enough force to bear upon Terra all led to his defeat. You could say that he was lost before he even began.

[mysterex]

I don't think chaos gods ever wanted Horus to win, what they really wanted was the 10,000 years of mayhem that followed. The warp is a reflection of emotion in the physical universe. A united peaceful galaxy would have weakened them, but a superstitious one constantly at war strengthens them.

So Horus lost as soon as he fell to chaos at Davin.

[Andrew Thomas]

Afternoon.

Bit of a poser here for those familiar with the expanding background of the Horus Heresy.

As per the title - just when did Horus lose?

Now the obvious answer 'when the Emperor mind-bulleted him to death' isn't what I'm looking for.

Instead, I'm wanting to explore the decisions made during the conflict as a whole - so really from the start of the Isstvan cleansing, right up to the final moments on his Battlebarge.

Quick comparison? World War 2. The war wasn't won when Berlin was taken - instead, that was just the final event of a long chain of disasters. Some feel it was when they opened up the Eastern Front, and provoked Russia. Others argue it was The Battle of Britain, in which the German war machine was dealt it's first serious defeat.

So that sort of thing. What was Horus' first blunder? Was it one of his allies who cost him the initiative required to strike before the rest of the Imperium could gird itself - or was it his own hubris?

Right. Off you go :)

I'd argue that it was when Hitler fired most of his Senior staff and, more or less, put Goering in charge of everything, but that's a different discussion;)

Horus lost when he let Lorgar start turning his brothers, because, as more of them fall, it becomes harder to reign in the imperatives the Ruinous Powers place upon their followers, especially when they are at odds with Horus' plans. His little stint as The Shadow notwithstanding, he's still being led by the nose, and Erebus and Kor Phaeron are tugging on that ring, and I don't think anyone is going to realize that until H, E, and S are bleeding out on the deck of the Vengeful Spirit.

[Psychosplodge]

When Sanguinius didn't join him. Throughout the series the suggestion was Sanguinius was a genuine alternative contender for the position of warmaster, so was at least as good as Horus in theory, and then the loyalists had the big E as well...

Whats a bigger question is why did the Emperor wait so long to intervene? The Empire of man is collapsing into civil war and the Emperor doesn't get out of bed till Horus is knocking on the door?

[Mr Mystery]

That would appear to be due to Magnus breaking the Portal thing.

Emperor and his Custodes were stuck on Terra trying to contain the rift.

[Psychosplodge]

I seem to have missed that, was it in one of the short side stories?

[Path Walker]

I've just realised why the "spear tip" thing as a tactic for the XVI is played on so heavily in the first few books, its foreshadowing exactly what Horus would try and do later on!

[CoffeeGrunt]

I seem to have missed that, was it in one of the short side stories?

A Thousand Sons covers it, Magnus foresees Horus' fall and tries to save him, but is too late and witnesses his corruption. He then projects himself through the Warp to reach Terra, and finds the webway portal which he had suspected due to finding an entrance to the Webway during his travels. He tries to gain entry, but can't, and an entity, (Tzeentch,) tricks him into beating it up to steal its power and break through the Webway. Magnus gets into the Webway and psychically projects to the Emperor what he saw of Horus' fall, but the Emperor projects back the sheer magnitude of what he was building, and what Magnus just destroyed, into Magnus' mind, who then retreats back to Prospero.

The Emperor and Custodes are then trapped in a battle to keep the Webway portal closed shut to prevent Daemons overtaking Terra through it. He was probably glued to the Golden Throne the whole time to keep it shut, much in the manner he is now.

[Psychosplodge]

The Emperor and Custodes are then trapped in a battle to keep the Webway portal closed shut to prevent Daemons overtaking Terra through it. He was probably glued to the Golden Throne the whole time to keep it shut, much in the manner he is now.

yeah it's that bit I didn't notice. I'm going to have to go back and re-read bits of the heresy series.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden is currently writing, The War In The Webway, which will presumably cover it. It also has The Emperor as a point-of-view character. Did I also mention that it's written by ADB? Seriously looking forward to that one.

[Psychosplodge]

Just mention it again.

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's written by ADB. :P

[Psychosplodge]

http://orig07.deviantart.net/3f50/f/2011/307/b/5/squee_i_can_believe_in_by_officer_rabbit-d4exmqo.png

[Morgrim]

When Sanguinius didn't join him. Throughout the series the suggestion was Sanguinius was a genuine alternative contender for the position of warmaster, so was at least as good as Horus in theory, and then the loyalists had the big E as well...
It's notable that with every other primarch they assumed they'd be getting the Legion too - and in some cases getting the Legion was the main attraction, because the primarch was uncontrollable plan-ruining bug**** crazy *coughCurzecough* - but with Sanguinius they were willing to forfeit getting the Blood Angels in exchange for getting Sanguinius. It's debatable how effective the Blood Angels would be if they were still loyalist and having to fight their primarch, but that's still a LOT of power to pass up for a single prize.

[Psychosplodge]

That certainly suggests they were genuinely worried enough to want him removed from opposing them.

I mean Russ is depicted as the Emperor's enforcer, and all the other legions are depicted as almost wanting to go toe to toe with the wolves.

[Mr Mystery]

Guess I should weigh in....

For me, it was Angron.

Specifically, when Angron headed planetside. Yes it was arguably the most reliable way to ensure no survivors - that anyone survived the virus bombing means a further 'Ripley' probably wouldn't cut it.

Not only did this cost the Renegades precious time, but resources. Far too many resources. Given Horus had been planning for a while (how long escapes my memory), and had been careful to place certain Legions out of position, and funnelled fresh materiel to his allies, Angron's assault mitigated that somewhat.

It was of course far from the final nail in the coffin, but it was certainly the first and most important one. If memory serves, it meant those Legions who followed up knew there was an open rebellion in the offing.

[Haighus]

SPOILERS (although this whole thread is spoilers). How do you do spoiler tags?

Angron also then went on to waste a load of time on Isstvan V blowing off steam chasing Corax (which admittedly wouldn't have been a waste if Corax hadn't been miraculously rescued) then proceeded to waste more time massacring a few random planets on the way to the Shadow Crusade just because he needed more blood, then was a total loose cannon in the Shadow Crusade, although at least it was helpful at that point.

[Guilliman's Ghost]

The Path of Heaven mentions it, and actually talks about the golden throne. As the White Scars are attempting to get back to Terra, Arvida sees the host of Chaos attempting to get into the Imperial Palace through the webway, and the army is so large, the White Scar fleet is diverted to a different location.

[Mr Mystery]

Been reading one of the anthology novels, and it contains a very short story about Hoerus chatting to Ferrus' head, ruing that he was forced to launch his rebellion with the Primarch's that were largely damaged or demented - and with hindsight to the beginning of my thread, that was probably the most important.

After all, like Father like Son. Astartes tend to follow in the footsteps of their Primarch. So if your Genefather is damaged or demented, so will you be to varying degrees.

Those who remain loyal tended to be exemplary - even Russ was a genuine hero, albeit one with a bloodier history than say Guilliman.

[Da Gargoyle]

For me, it was Angron.

So what you are saying is Angron is to Horus what Ney was to Napoleon. In both cases Angron and Ney thought they knew the threat better than their commanders?

[Jmaximum]

This. Thanks for saving me the time to type it out ;) Isstvan was just the first in a long series of small little foibles that all added up in the end.

I wish Skrall woulda killed Horus. Favorite character.

Who the FOIK is Skrall???

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Ok, feel like I missed a lot here, as I don't get some of the references, and I am up to date on the books
.
What is the significance of Horus at Molech (What/when/where is Molech?)
I thought Horus started losing as soon as his super-saiyan arrogance was ignited in the fever dream on Davin, or when he started listening to Erebus (where the hell has he been since book 2?) BUT, the Emperor did not help the issue, by unexplainedly withdrawing from his sons to create the opening in the webway that Maguns promptly fooked up in his hubris.
Had Woody only gone to the police......

[Andrew Thomas]

Who the FOIK is Skrall???

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, feel like I missed a lot here, as I don't get some of the references, and I am up to date on the books
.
What is the significance of Horus at Molech (What/when/where is Molech?)
I thought Horus started losing as soon as his super-saiyan arrogance was ignited in the fever dream on Davin, or when he started listening to Erebus (where the hell has he been since book 2?) BUT, the Emperor did not help the issue, by unexplainedly withdrawing from his sons to create the opening in the webway that Maguns promptly fooked up in his hubris.
Had Woody only gone to the police......

Molech holds a doorway to the Warp, that the Emperor used to take the fight to the Ruinous Powers and in so doing, achieve his current level of divinity. Horus invaded that world basically to prove himself to his new masters, and to do about 10,000 years of power-leveling in the Warp. As for Erebus, he and Space Falwell and Space Graham were busy beating up Smurfs (Know No Fear, Mark of Calth), trying to kill the Emperor (Nemesis, Vulkan Lives), trying to keep the Angels out of the fight/turn Sanguinius (Fear to Tread) and turning Angron into the first officially recognized Daemon Prince (Betrayer, although arguments can be made both for Magnus, as the Scourging of Prospero happened around the same time as the battle of Isstvan IV, and Fulgrim, whose apotheosis occurred a few months after the Dropsite Massacre, in Angel Exterminatus).

[Jmaximum]

ok, now I'm more confused lol.
I thought the Big E is a psychic construct from the life force of 'ancient shamans' and pretty much came to life as a divine being.
Molech is still not ringing a bell, as I don't recall the Emp 'taking the fight to the Ruinous Powers'. I thought the only time he fought Chaos directly was when Magnus screwed 'THE PLAN' by destroying the barrier on the broken webway portal in da Throne Room....
Any sources on the above comments?
Also I don't remember Horus entering the warp to power up... I thought he was mainly resistant to the Powers due to his own vainglorious nature and hubris.
The other sources quoted by Andrew I do remember (awesome job pinpointing those events, btw!)

[Andrew Thomas]

ok, now I'm more confused lol.
I thought the Big E is a psychic construct from the life force of 'ancient shamans' and pretty much came to life as a divine being.
Molech is still not ringing a bell, as I don't recall the Emp 'taking the fight to the Ruinous Powers'. I thought the only time he fought Chaos directly was when Magnus screwed 'THE PLAN' by destroying the barrier on the broken webway portal in da Throne Room....
Any sources on the above comments?
Also I don't remember Horus entering the warp to power up... I thought he was mainly resistant to the Powers due to his own vainglorious nature and hubris.
The other sources quoted by Andrew I do remember (awesome job pinpointing those events, btw!)

No idea where the Shamans thing came from, although I saw the Lexicanum article. Much of the more recent Horus Heresy books would make it seem that the Emperor is just another Perpetual, one that was not content with being a pawn in the Eldar scheme to destroy the Ruinous Powers. At least, that's how I headcanon it.

The Molech story is the main plot in Vengeful Spirit. Horus, Fulgrim, and Mortarion lay siege to the Knight world of Molech in order to find a portal to the Warp used by the Emperor relatively early in human history, supposedly prior to the establishment of House Devine as its guardians, to physically enter the Immaterium. After turning House Devine and obliterating the Molech's defenders, by blowing up an Emperor-class Titan and unleashing Grulgor and the Red Angel, the three Primarchs found the Portal, Horus entered, and over the course of an hour, experienced 10,000 years of War within the Warp, and, having curried favor with the Powers, emerged empowered but still mostly a normal Primarch. This differed from how the Emperor did it in that Horus was neither a natural Psyker nor was he a Perpetual, and in that he accepted the rewards and privileges extended him by the Gods where the Emperor rejected them. What's odd, but fitting considering that the 7th edition Knight codex was published around the same time, was that in the book, no one, not even the Primarchs present, had exact memories as to why Molech was so important as to warrant the garrison of 3 Knight Households, a Titan Legio, and a Company of Blood Angels, only that it was an important world, echoing the retcons in both Knight Codexes that attempted to explain that Knights were always part of the 40k setting, despite only ever existing on the tabletop as early Epic 40k models.

[Jmaximum]

Oh waitasec - Molech IS where Knight House Adam Devine was established, the obvious but shhhhhh eventual followers of Slaanesh. They appeared in a short story as well, something to do with one of the sons of House Device becoming an incubator for a demon while sequestered in the hold of a space ship.......I dunno, can't remember much detail, but they were all SURPRISE Slaanesh worshipers, and there was a young orphaned girl involved with a pre-Grey Knight Errant of Malcador.......
There's a lore story for Big E, might even be the short story 'The Last Church' or in Horus Rising, as indeed, the Big E is a divine construct made of the life force of all of earth's shamans, from, like, waaaaaaaaaaaay back when (allegedly, before recorded history, He has been around since Shamans were shamans, but bide His time until he could reveal Himself).
I am gonna have to read Vengeful Spirit again, cuz I don't remember any of this lol.
Side thought: wasn't a female inquisitor turned in to the Red Angel in the Ultramarines Omnibus, through Daemonica Speculum (can't remember the name for $#!t). in your post, are you referencing Angron as the Red Angel? Crapo, I really need to reread the book. I believe the Red Angel is also used to describe Sanguinius, as well as one particular demon, and Angron, and the converted female character I mentioned: she goes on to destroy a whole OTHER FRIKKIN UNKNOWN GALAXY BY HERSELF/ITSELF and then reappears after this heretofore unknown carnage like 'hey, whatsup?'
I believe ALL primarchs have some level of psychic powers, be it from an aura of control to outright psychic shenanigans..... that they could even sense each other psychically...
Yeah, ur post is great, mine sounds like a 3rd grade book report...

[Andrew Thomas]

Oh waitasec - Molech IS where Knight House Adam Devine was established, the obvious but shhhhhh eventual followers of Slaanesh. They appeared in a short story as well, something to do with one of the sons of House Device becoming an incubator for a demon while sequestered in the hold of a space ship.......I dunno, can't remember much detail, but they were all SURPRISE Slaanesh worshipers, and there was a young orphaned girl involved with a pre-Grey Knight Errant of Malcador.......
There's a lore story for Big E, might even be the short story 'The Last Church' or in Horus Rising, as indeed, the Big E is a divine construct made of the life force of all of earth's shamans, from, like, waaaaaaaaaaaay back when (allegedly, before recorded history, He has been around since Shamans were shamans, but bide His time until he could reveal Himself).
I am gonna have to read Vengeful Spirit again, cuz I don't remember any of this lol.
Side thought: wasn't a female inquisitor turned in to the Red Angel in the Ultramarines Omnibus, through Daemonica Speculum (can't remember the name for $#!t). in your post, are you referencing Angron as the Red Angel? Crapo, I really need to reread the book. I believe the Red Angel is also used to describe Sanguinius, as well as one particular demon, and Angron, and the converted female character I mentioned: she goes on to destroy a whole OTHER FRIKKIN UNKNOWN GALAXY BY HERSELF/ITSELF and then reappears after this heretofore unknown carnage like 'hey, whatsup?'
I believe ALL primarchs have some level of psychic powers, be it from an aura of control to outright psychic shenanigans..... that they could even sense each other psychically...
Yeah, ur post is great, mine sounds like a 3rd grade book report...

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Angel

I'm referring to the Daemonhost Lorgar created from one of the Blood Angels Legionaries MPD'd at Murder, described in the link above.

[Jmaximum]

No super surprise then, that there's more than one Red Angel.

[Naughtymom69]

To provide a different point of view here and by the way I'm not joking with this . .. Horus was under control of the ruinous powers right? So Horus therefore wasn't really Horus therefore... Horus (the traitor one not the loyal best son of the emperor) was playing the Great game and .... did not lose after all.