I hate that i may have been right

[Muninwing]

At the end of July, i wrote this:

“i have a guess that the Age of Sigmar will eventually become something interesting, maybe even worth playing. but i started seeing what it was, heard that there was no WHF 9th, and wrote it off.”

the other day, i looked at the AoS discussion board, and the first post i saw was titled “i am losing interest” with the next titled something like "so nobody has posted here in a week" (and to their credit, even reading it later, nobody had except in the pinned posts above) -- and it made me sad on a deep level.

see, WHF and 40k are, for me, more than just games. they are creative outlets, a reminder of good times and bad -- my wife and i started dating when i was a redshirt, and we spent a lot of time in our first year doing projects together while i worked 60+ hour weeks. it was an escape from toxic roommate situations, a bonding experience with friends, an expander of social circles, and generally a positive and beneficial influence on me, even when i may have spent too much time or too much money on one project or another.

when i’ve stopped playing, it has been out of frustration… or due to a lack of opportunity… or because life gets in the way. never due to boredom.

ever since i started exploring the larger-than-life fluff created for the two leading games GW has created, i’ve been absorbed. some better than others. some writers are better than others (and some are as good as modern bestsellers, while others are as bad as some modern bestsellers... Abnett’s Grisham to Goto’s Meyer). the idea of losing interest in a game that should be riveting and fun, and in a world that is nuanced and thorough yet with plenty of room left for expansion, it boggles my mind that someone could get bored with it.

then i remember…

End Times was rushed. Age of Sigmar killed a whole developed world. change in gameplay, change in fundamental structures, change in genre, all led toward the new game being fundamentally different in nearly every way. the rallying cry of “rank and flank forever!” faded gradually, KoW and Oldhammer ate those still kicking (my local group has a 6th ed league running with houserules to tweak certain armybooks), and GW is still embargoing the results of AoS. It might have succeeded more than the stuffed shirts had expected, but rather than admit that they had made bad policies that poisoned the original, they just set the bar really low and accepted failure. because it sells models.

today (i started writing this a bit ago) there was a frontpage article about seeing WHF8th online for sale, and wondering whether it had been taken down and put back up. ultimately, it was grasping at straws, hope beyond reason that somehow GW would “see the light” and release the WHF 9th rules we secretly think they stashed somewhere. there were rumors just before ET of the Brettonian books already having been printed, and sitting in a warehouse (though i do not think they were terribly credible, since they disappeared pretty quickly), and i know a number of Brett fans who decided to just quit the game when ET razed all they loved in the game almost as an afterthought, instead of giving them the update they were long in wait for.

GW is really bad about rumors. rumors are a tool to use, not a runaway train to shape the hopes of your community. but therein lies the real issue -- they see their product like any other, like gaskets or widgets or wrenches. there isn’t a gasket aficionados club meeting every week to use their widgets. there aren’t online message boards with the volume of stories and arguments and support for wrenches. nobody has written a novel series that i am aware of about the merits and flaws and underlying archetypes of various brands of gaskets, read by people who may have gasket brand tattoos or display cases full of their own gasket collections at home.

i would lose interest in gaskets. i already have in widgets. i like Malifaux in concept, but i rarely play because it has not succeeded in capturing my interest. had there been more to the background, more to the story, more influence locally, and more of a narrative campaign to go along with the game itself, i’d probably still be playing that week after week. in contrast, even though i took the 40k’s 5.5 era off out of annoyance at the obvious bad quality control of OP lists and bad support, i found that i will come back to it in different forms time and time again. there’s a weight to it that gaskets do not have. and how sad that WHF had that weight and that story, but AoS cut itself off from effectively utilizing any of it? it is no wonder why many communities have struggled or rebelled against AoS as an alternative to other games.

community is something that love of the game and competitive play created. it does not need to be WAAC, or fluffy, or anything but what you make it. it doesn’t need to be perfect. but to even allow it to seem that they show active scorn for veteran players is the worst business idea ever -- loyal customers are easier to rely on than courting new ones, and giving sustained options to loyal customers is far more guaranteed than getting a first-timer to invest more.

not everything needs weight. i mentioned that Dumas’ “The Count of Monte Cristo” lacks gravitas for me -- it’s a great story of revenge and plotting, and it has its own significance and place in the western canon, but in the end it’s a fun fluff piece by a superior writer, who just so happens to write fun adventure stories instead of weighty atmospheric masterpieces. I cheered when i first read it, and i remember the mental picture i had from outside the Morcerf estate of Fernand’s pistol-report, the intrigue of the voices at the coliseum before you learn of Edmond’s full reinvention of himself, the full ghastly realization of the Marquise’s horrible nature... but it taught me no lesson i didn’t already know. that one in particular suffers from some structural issues -- having been written on-call and released chapter-by-chapter in a periodical instead of treated as one complete draft. earlier, i asserted that AoS had not been given the time to grow in weight and mass, but that it hadn’t was a critical flaw of their upper management, and a sign that they were releasing an incomplete product. now, we have a product months later without any added weight, but over-the-top attempts at storytelling that hasn’t managed to add significance or interest to the game at all. heavy-handed usage of old character ideas without actual development does not develop the new generation of heroes for this new era of time.

we see three months in passing, and we see no better fluff, no rational cosmic definition, no overarcing plan, and it still smacks of hollowness. and people are getting bored. i know that some people were instantly against the idea of AoS, and that others loved to see WHF be something (even something new) so flocked to the game even in new form. reports of play trailing off have become the norm, even if a few groups have been revitalized -- but GW is stoically silent. almost as if they have no idea what to do now that their panicked plan b has stalled out, and without an actual unified idea of how to move the product forward while putting as little of their resources as can be managed. just as the Stormcast seem neat at first -- Knight-Einherjar, Sentient Steel Golem veterans of a past age, militant angels in chivalric finery, how could someone make that boring? but they have no downside, no flaw… they have no personality past being nameless soldiers in empty suits of armor. instead of being parallels of storied SM dreadnoughts awakened from slumber, they are blank rank-and-file necrons for all their personality is dictated by atmosphere instead of detail.

don’t get me wrong… as much as i feel that the animosity that GW fostered was (a) completely predictable (b) completely avoidable and (c) utterly their own fault, i know that sometimes ideas just don’t work as planned, regardless of how thorough the work before the release. but if a good product and a cohesive plan can still fail, what about such an obviously halfhearted one?

it could have been ok.

i would have eaten my words -- and been glad to do so -- had they turned it around. whether they responded by adopting Azyrcomp (which, IMO, is the best-written part of any rules applied to AoS... and it's not even written by GW) as an official metric, by releasing fluff-based components with quality writing that fleshed out the vast blank spots with at very least a general concept. we've never been treated to a Cathay book, but we know it exists... and we know of Hrud and Interex and Ghoul Stars and the insides of lower levels of a hive city without actually reading about them in detail. one "this is the new planes atlas" announcement and i'd have been optimistic that AoS and its new world were not going to just get boring.

It had no weight at release. it is fun, i'll admit -- i mildly enjoyed the few games i've played. but it has no staying power without real support. and "support" does not mean just reinforcing the two sides of the board game starter.

let's give it another three months and see what happens. will it have added enough significance and gravity to withstand the post-winter lull? to weather the shift as spring reminds us that there is an outside, and some of us get distracted by other hobbies or other people? will it be able to sustain a summer campaign... or a lack of one, should GW choose not to give the support a new game needs to establish itself?

just in case the rumor of today -- the "specialist games department" announcement -- has any truth to it... maybe AoS could be beefed up in nature by support from other types and styles of play? maybe AoS could become a specialist game, and some alternate rules that support troop blocks could be promotes? maybe the reverse -- a sort of "AoS apoc" game could come out that uses rank-and file?

at this point, nobody knows what GW is going to do. from the looks of it, even them.

[Muninwing]

at this point, nobody knows what GW is going to do. from the looks of it, even them.

primarily, i am dissatisfied with the fluff. the game can be "not for me" and i'm fine with that. skirmish high-fantasy can be adapted to, or given up... but the death of a quality world and its replacement with such a trite excuse for a setting is offensive to me on many levels.

it could have been okay.

there are plenty of directions they could have chosen.

1. bad trope used well

as much as i hate the “it was all a dream” trope, had the End Times been revealed at the end to be a prophetic dream that Teclis had while searching for the secrets of true magic, prompting him to remove himself and others from the timestream, and changing the course of the Old World away from that terrible end, that would have (a) opened up AoS to be about what happens to these great heroes in a new world outside of the material plane, (b) explored the power vacuum and its effects if all the most important SCs from WHF disappeared (and others rose to take their place), (c) changed the focus and effect on the core game. it could even have been that the rise of Nagash was a prophecy that foretold the oncoming storm, and that the next large campaign was the “good guys” allying to create new conquest into unexplored lands (Cathay, Ind, and Araby were all ripe for the picking). or a smaller skirmish-based game focusing on the high-fantasy questing of small groups of heroes or villains searching for older-world artifacts to find the locations of the mansions that prosessed Nagash’s rib, eye, heart, fingernail, etc.

along the way you could ally with vampires. or something.

2. multiverse
if not that… what about the revelation of Sigmar at the end, floating in chaos, that there are countless other planes in which Chaos is fighting to corrupt and overcome… and he leaves one destroyed world to find a new one similar to his own to take the fight to. reinvent the political structures, recombine the various groups, rename a few, and create a new rich backdrop full of political and social depth, and show that Chaos has been running rampant until Sigmar showed up with his army of fallen heroes of legend… but they could not stay in the world unless they gave up their power and encased themselves in metal bodies that would eventually be unrepairable…

heroic sacrifice, not unassailable god-golems.

imagine THOSE showing up in a slightly modified reality from the WHF universe, maybe like the old RPG, maybe like an “ultimate” version (a la marvel) to do much of what the old world did. in the town square of Nuln, a pinioned and hammer-wielding regiment of armored angels descends on pillars of fire and declares the city under martial law… Karl Franz may believe in the sanctity of SIgmar, but may not agree with Sigmar’s supposed creations turning his provinces into ground zero for a war not guaranteed to happen. now, there’s interesting tensions and dynamics. and if you want to put lizardmen into spaceship-pyramids, do it right then -- as a response to what is not of the natural order, they activate ancient god-engines left for them by their creators, and they fight their world’s invasion by ANY external source, be they angel-equivalents, or daemons, or breeding experiments of Skaven or Druchii. have them be the preservers of the planet’s status quo, the Wood Elves the protectors of its undespoiled wildness, and the Skaven be an analogy for urban decay and pollution instead of the pointlessness of stepping into Nurgle’s territory.

now we have tension, changing alliances, and a furthering of the plot. perhaps with the anti-lizardmen and the god-golems as players, Archaeon’s victory is not guaranteed without Nagash’s enlistment on the side of corrosion… unless the Seraphon (with their terrible, confusing, rule-of-cool nonsense name, given the angelic motifs of the Stormcast) can manage to be pointed at chaos without slaughtering their potential allies… unless the High Elves or their Wood Elf cousins can be swayed to fight alongside their Dark Elf cousins.

3. adding on to either one...
in a couple years, fast-forward to a new campaign that does a similar revelatory experience with Archaeon’s dreams, showing him understanding the underpinnings of the true struggle and finding a loophole. have every year be the equivalent of five in-game years, or ten, and regularly release changes to SCs as some of them get old and die and others rise.

4. the Terminator path
or what about revisiting an earlier time in WHF history -- Sigmar loops back in time like the end of Necroscope (or something as good with a better-written ending) and brings his army back to an earlier age -- disrupting the alliance between Elves and Man, affecting all the history and changing it for dramatically different results. then… fast forward 100 years, and see what happens.

because...
all the potential they incorporated into the “there are realms…” idea has been wasted. all of the “epic heroes reborn quest for the hammer of their god!” storyline falls flat when you have no reason to care about their successes. all the focus to establish the Stormcast has instead taken focus away from the rest of the game -- like, we literally have no idea even where the non-Storm/Khorne forces are, how Chaos has so many footsoldiers, or what they are fighting for. there's not a single indicator that the society left over is worth saving, that there are people to save, or that any of the other factions exist in more form than in roving warbands in a postapocalyptic fight to the death. and as much as the lizardmen in their flying pyramids from space have now descended, even they are reliant on mediocre storytelling and a lack of new depth. plus, it keeps them isolated and unintegrated within the greater fabric of the world, adding no complexity nor weight to what could have been a turning point that revealed more of the blank background.

So… what now? now that plenty of places have dropped off their support, that the numbers are in to GW HQ (even if not to us), that other games are sniping their players, and that the planned releases are coming to less and less fanfare, what’s the plan? i hope that they keep the game alive for those who bought in… but what about the rest of the world? what about the people who licensed their product, only to find that their loyal fanbase has trailed away from a world that has ended? what about the armies gathering dust across the world, in cases or displays, with owners who can’t sell them for what they are worth and don’t want to light them on fire? what about those potential customers who would dust off their models and buy more if they only were given something to do with them that matched with the reasons they bought them in the first place?

HQ has some ‘splainin to do. but instead, they’ll try to move the goalposts to their “we’re just a model company” and evade any sort of rational response to losing their market share with clever attempts to dodge the real issue..

[Auticus]

I'm a part of two facebook groups that have a lot of traffic.

Forums are for the most part in my experience a hive for discussing tournament level tactics and strategies and list building. None of those things are really supported by AoS, so it does not surprise me that the forums are all dead except for people continuing to slam AoS.

The most telling question that the release of AoS has had is how important / predominant the tournament/competitive community is in regards to a miniature wargame.

From an FLGS standpoint it seems that 9 out of 10 FLGS report that it tanked and that most competitive players play the lion's share of their games at FLGS, so that is not surprising to me either that it would tank out of FLGS environments.

But are those people the vast majority of all involved in tabletop wargaming? That is the big question.

The narrative / backdrop is always subjective. I'm warming up to it. I have read all four of the major novels, the two audio books, and getting through the archaon collection of short stories. They are slowly introducing the rest of the races back into the backdrop. The stormcast are showing them how to fight again where they were just hiding from chaos before.

AoS could be something very good, beyond GW prices of course, but while its not a competitive styled game that tournaments can be run from it will continue to hold its malaise and division over a community that is equally as divided and from the past 20 years of my own experience, always has been divided.

I'm heavily involved in Frostgrave right now and picking up Saga and Dragon Rampant as well, but my primary fantasy campaigns that I run every year are still warhammer, and Age of Sigmar will be up there with me until something better comes along (and I will continue to support Azyr Comp and keep it updated with every release)

Kings of War for me is simply not better... it actually brought back all of the things I hated about 6th/7th edition.

For someone primarily interested in tournaments and competitive play, AoS will never be that game and I can surely understand why all of the people that played before have left around where I am, because my area is very much dominated by competitive tournament play.

However, if competitive tournament play is not a primary driver, I find that AoS can be acceptable. I lament that it is not fully what I want out of a game, and yes there are a bunch of ways it could have been better, but I have still for the most part enjoyed my time with it.

[Muninwing]

However, if competitive tournament play is not a primary driver, I find that AoS can be acceptable. I lament that it is not fully what I want out of a game, and yes there are a bunch of ways it could have been better, but I have still for the most part enjoyed my time with it.

i'm going to admit that i haven't played in a WHF tournament since the dawn of 7th. it was fun, before terrorbombs really knocked the excitement for the game out of me. and 8th reigned at my local club for a while... then died hard and fast. something about it just turned a lot of people off. in the lull between 8th's passing and the introduction of 40k 6th, we had a small-game renaissance -- Malifaux got the most play, dystopian wars and FoW picked up speed, and we even had a few homebrews and indie games show up.

for me, it's the fluff that shows how well or poorly they have invested in the game. and it's been coming, but slowly... and sadly, a fair portion of it is just not quality writing. not that it all needs to be, or that some of what's come out of the new tau books isn't as bad... it's just that a newer product (even for an established brand or manufacturer) cannot afford to be incomplete or seem so. there's far less wiggle room.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Wow. You're coming at this from SUCH a different perspective to the gang in and around Sydney, the ones who spend time in the three GWs I frequent anyway.
They like Stormcast, because (when you read the novels) they're human and relatable. No spoilers, but my favourite is the one who just wants his immortality over with so he can join his wife in the afterlife. They feel fear, and doubt, they make mistakes, they fail, and as the novels roll on it's becoming increasingly obvious that Sigmar has been less than 100% honest with them about the side effects of becoming Stormcast. Particularly the costs.....
Also Manfred (who is in one of the stories) is extremely enjoyable.
I spent most of my childhood in the Oldworld, but where I am at least, it was dying. A concerted push from my local store's manager got the playerbase up to 1/4 or 1/5 (ish) of the store's regulars. That same effort around AOS now means they are ALL multi-system! And I've played more games of AOS since release than I had Deadhammer in the previous year as a result.
Yes, it's reliant on both players sharing a mutual understanding of "fun", and yes we've had to re-learn our tactics from the ground up, but it's been worth these minor asides for what has proven to be a much more fun pick-up game than any edition of WFB I've played (it must be noted that I'm a relative noob, having started as recently as 1992).
On a tactics sidebar, I personally find there's a LOT more tactical depth to AOS than people who've played a handful of games trying to play like WFB give it credit for.
Also if you read those threads you mentioned, while they did indeed start with a negative comment, they are also populated with responses from people who are enjoying the new.

[Lexington]

we see three months in passing, and we see no better fluff, no rational cosmic definition, no overarcing plan, and it still smacks of hollowness. and people are getting bored.
This is AoS' biggest problem, from my perspective - it's a world that was just so, so clearly drawn up by committee for the purpose of serving particular business goals. It's got all the personality of an office park.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Dude.
Give it time.
The old world was nothing but a shallow parody of every fantasy trope of its age 3 books in. Hell, most of it was cribbed of Moorcock.
Yes, it's intentionally open, like the planar settings of DnD.
It's so there's room to be creative.
Look at the 40k universe, 99% of the galaxy is unexplored or undetailed beyond a 1 line blurb.
The bits that are have 30 years of development tying the into a setting.
Imagine what 30 years of setting development in the Mortal Realms, sowhere which actually changes, has as potential.
30 years vs 5 (ish) months of world. Of course it seems underdeveloped.

[Ray Rivers]

It's got all the personality of an office park.

But unlike the vast majority of companies, GW has the capability to commit to a long term vision for it's products and I expect that they will maintain a continuous stream of new fluff and miniatures.

It's greatest obstacle in the short term is allowing all the Oldhammer diehards to just fade away and make room for new folks who can enjoy the AoS world without having folks constantly *****in and complaining.

[Cutter]

But unlike the vast majority of companies, GW has the capability to commit to a long term vision for it's products and I expect that they will maintain a continuous stream of new fluff and miniatures.

It's greatest obstacle in the short term is allowing all the Oldhammer diehards to just fade away and make room for new folks who can enjoy the AoS world without having folks constantly *****in and complaining.

True.

One thing about hanging out in BoLS I never could stomach; all the damn Warhammer diehards...

[Mr Mystery]

But unlike the vast majority of companies, GW has the capability to commit to a long term vision for it's products and I expect that they will maintain a continuous stream of new fluff and miniatures.

It's greatest obstacle in the short term is allowing all the Oldhammer diehards to just fade away and make room for new folks who can enjoy the AoS world without having folks constantly *****in and complaining.

Yup.

And as Badrukk said, it's still very, very new.

Me, I'm reading everything they release for it, and already the Realms are being given better shape and form. Aqshy remains a bit dull, but Nagash's pad is very cool indeed, and Ghur is colossal.

The game itself isn't Warhammer, and whether you embrace that or not the only option is to move on from it. It's in the past. Sneering at AoS isn't going to suddenly make it Warhammer.

It's far more Scenario based. If people aren't getting the various Battletomes and background books then they're missing out on a vital component. Each Realm has it's own special rules to reflect it's nature. Each scenario then adds additional special rules, adding the challenge of the game.

And claims that there are not tactics are bunkum. Whilst flank and rear charges no longer count for very much, they've been replaced with how you deploy and support each unit. Some are relatively straight forward (I'll stick a Bloodpriest here to buff this area etc). Others a bit trickier to pull off and precise measurement when deploying and moving the units (using 2" or longer reach units to support a shieldwall, safe from reprisals, allowing you to maximise your damage without having to worry too much about Battleshock). And that's barely scratching the surface. As above, every scenario has additional rules and restrictions to worry about, which will require some thought, and therefore tactics, on how to exploit or mitigate.

[Cutter]

Me, I'm reading everything they release for it.

Is there a medal available for this? Cos you deserve one.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Is there a medal available for this? Cos you deserve one.

The reading is its own reward. I've been doing the same.

[Cutter]

The reading is its own reward. I've been doing the same.

Two medals.

Did it significantly improve after The Gates of Azyr?

[Auticus]

Gates of Azyr was the worst of the lot.

I liked Ghal Maraz and i like the archaon series. I'm reading the fourth book right now in the main storyline, which is ok.

[Ray Rivers]

They like Stormcast, because (when you read the novels) they're human and relatable. No spoilers, but my favourite is the one who just wants his immortality over with so he can join his wife in the afterlife.

:(

In what book does this come out?

[Mr Mystery]

Every one since Gates of Azyr.

Space Marines they ain't.

[Just Tony]

True.

One thing about hanging out in BoLS I never could stomach; all the damn Warhammer diehards...

And the sooner we stop leering at AOS and move on the sooner it will be a resounding success.




OR it'll fail like a football bat and you can embrace our pain and have no choice but to "move on from it".

[Mr Mystery]

Keep hoping there dude.

For every person saying it's dead, there's another saying it seems to be doing alright. Which has the right of it? Likely, as ever, somewhere in the middle.

All we have are anecdotes.

And all it needs to do is sell more and grow beyond where Warhammer previously was.

[Just Tony]

Keep hoping there dude.

For every person saying it's dead, there's another saying it seems to be doing alright. Which has the right of it? Likely, as ever, somewhere in the middle.

All we have are anecdotes.

And all it needs to do is sell more and grow beyond where Warhammer previously was.

My hope is irrelevant to the point I was making. The poster Cutter was responding do was basically a "deal with it" post combined with "move along". He was indignant to that post as was I. I personally will be playing 6th Ed. regardless of what GW proper does with their current releases, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I secretly hope that the pro-AOS camp gets to "deal" with their own cancellation.

[Mr Mystery]

Why?

What does that achieve?

I enjoy AoS, and I enjoy other incarnations. 6th isn't my face, but good luck to you - we've all got to do what makes us happy.

So why the 'I hope the game I'm not fussed for crashes and burns because players'

What does that achieve?

[Just Tony]

Walking a mile in another's shoes, maybe kill the condescending and flippant attitude towards anyone who didn't onramp to AOS? Just one possibility.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Adapting to change is not bad.
Doing the old thing you love is not bad.
People enjoying something that hurts no-one is not bad.
Wishing failure on something, something that does you no harm, that ain't cool.
AOS isn't everybody's cup of (insert national beverage here), but you don't hear me wishing failure on Privateer Press because i find their games less stimulating than lubing up with local anesthetic, or Mantic because I think I could make a more interesting range of miniatures with a blender, superglue, and some army men.
So bemoan it, by all means. Just expect people to disagree.
But don't wish failure on it, I wouldn't even wish that on the WOW movie.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude, this is an AoS board. For the discussion of AoS.

Not getting on with AoS isn't a problem. Preferring an older edition isn't a problem.

The problem is the constant 'tcoch, look at them, enjoying AoS for what it is. Don't they realise Xth Ed is better. I best keep telling them until I'm blue in the face'.

Imagine the same scenario elsewhere.

Cinema. You're watching a film, and yet the person behind constantly bangs on about how much they're not enjoying it, and you shouldn't be enjoying it either.

Food. About to tuck in to your favourite meal. And the person at the table over goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how your preferred meal is inferior or undercooked or primitive or what have you.

It gets old. Quick. On BoLS? For me, it got old when certain posters decided before they'd even seen the rules let alone played a game that the game was destined to fail, seemingly because they have nothing better to do.

It is neither condescending nor flippant to say 'it's happened. Move on. Get over it'. Not liking AoS is not going to make it become
9th Ed, nor lead to GW doing a 9th Ed. If you're not a fan of AoS, then you're not a fan. Nothing wrong with that. But ragging on it because it's not what you wanted it to be just doesn't achieve anything.

[Just Tony]

Dude, this is an AoS board. For the discussion of AoS.

Not getting on with AoS isn't a problem. Preferring an older edition isn't a problem.

The problem is the constant 'tcoch, look at them, enjoying AoS for what it is. Don't they realise Xth Ed is better. I best keep telling them until I'm blue in the face'.

Imagine the same scenario elsewhere.

Cinema. You're watching a film, and yet the person behind constantly bangs on about how much they're not enjoying it, and you shouldn't be enjoying it either.

Food. About to tuck in to your favourite meal. And the person at the table over goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how your preferred meal is inferior or undercooked or primitive or what have you.

It gets old. Quick. On BoLS? For me, it got old when certain posters decided before they'd even seen the rules let alone played a game that the game was destined to fail, seemingly because they have nothing better to do.

It is neither condescending nor flippant to say 'it's happened. Move on. Get over it'. Not liking AoS is not going to make it become
9th Ed, nor lead to GW doing a 9th Ed. If you're not a fan of AoS, then you're not a fan. Nothing wrong with that. But ragging on it because it's not what you wanted it to be just doesn't achieve anything.

I didn't pass judgment on AOS until I saw what it was, and then I decided it wasn't for me. I didn't wish ill will or failure on GW until this thread right here, in response to the attitude levied at people who aren't wholeheartedly on board with AOS. And as far as this being an AOS board: can you point me to the WFB board? If I scroll down a few pages, lo and behold this WAS the WFB board before the rechristening as the AOS board. I joined here to have discourse, push classichammer for those who are into such things, and maybe, just maybe, see someone's point of view on AOS that may change my opinion on it. So far the discourse is not to be had, except for the occasional divisive threads, there isn't enough traffic on the pages for any pushing of classichammer, and I've most assuredly not seen a single post that has given me pause to reconsider any stances I have on AOS.

My remark may have been born of frustration with that set up and in response to remarks made, and possibly with an excess of... zeal, but that doesn't change the feeling behind it, nor my indifference (at best) at losing the fantasy side of things overall from GW, especially if it keeps that sort of thing from happening to the other systems. System? Whatever.

On the bright side, SDS looks promising...

[Reldane]

It is neither condescending nor flippant to say 'it's happened. Move on. Get over it'.

take from google
Flippant: not showing a serious or respectful attitude.
Condescending: having or showing an attitude of patronizing superiority.

I think it would certainly be Condescending and Flippant to tell someone with a large investment in a game that has had support removed to make a new game to 'it's happened. Move on. Get over it'. it is clearly disrespecting that investment, remembering that investment is a lot more than monetary but includes the taken to assemble convert and paint the army.

If you like Age of Sigmar, I wish you all the best, it is in my interest to see Age of Sigmar succeed and I hope that the people who do enjoy it continue to play. I also advise anyone who hasn't given it ago do try it and see how you personally feel about it as it will only take an hour (or less) of your time. However there is nothing wrong with any game or rules set not being.

[Mr Mystery]

If they had inexplicably binned all their books - then fair enough.

If they had sold all their books prior, expecting to use the funds to buy whatever new ones came out - then fair enough.

But other than the above (I don't joke about house fires. They're terrifying) - then there is nothing preventing you from carrying on exactly as you were.

Ultimately I really don't care who does and doesn't enjoy AoS. It's utterly irrelevant to me. I enjoy it, and I continue to enjoy 8th Ed. I have all the books for both, because that's the sort of hobbyist I am. The investment is the same. Don't want the new offering? Stick with whatever works for you. The models are still out there to buy, and appropriately size square bases are plentiful and easy to come by - and the more esoterically sized ones can still be made out of Plasticard with little to no fuss.

So AoS is a non-issue. Nobody has done a Farenheit-451 on your collection of books.

[Reldane]

So AoS is a non-issue. Nobody has done a Farenheit-451 on your collection of books.

please don't miss understand me, I have no gripe or problem with Age of Sigmar (bar one to be explained later). My point was that your statement was false, as is this one. I am somewhat fortunate that I have the space to play at my home; not everyone has that space, I know a number of people who have to play at the local games workshop if they want to play at all. Now I have read that some GW's do allow you to play old games, but the one local to me (and I suspect others as well) do not. So for some people having the books makes no difference to how easily they can play. in addition it is very difficult to bring someone into an older version of the game, if a friend of a friend wants to join in they must scrounge ebay for those books hoping to find one that is in reasonable condition - a task that will get harder with time and can be quite off putting.

my only real complaint at Age of Sigmar, is using Sigmar's name. I read and enjoyed the Graham McNeil Sigmar books, they got across a character who had flaws but united an empire though his humanity, who was tempted onto darker paths by (the ring) Nagash's crown. A character who would rather lose and see humanity die out than sacrifice that humanity. The Sigmar fleshed out in those books has little to no resemblance to the Sigmar of Age of Sigmar - he feels a lot more like a recast of the Emperor of the Imperium.

[Just Tony]

Also I forgot to put on my list of reasons for my AOS flop stance is that GW, SDS news notwithstanding, has proceeded on a path born of hubris, and I'd personally love for them to find out firsthand how otiose market research and focus groups on the customer base really are.

[HappyDad]

- then there is nothing preventing you from carrying on exactly as you were.

I keep reading this, but it is not actually true.

For me, 'carrying on', would mean expecting a continual evolution of the rules, the introduction of new units and fluff, and very importantly the upgrading of old models with far nicer new ones. I was still really looking forward to new high elf warriors and archers and some decent goblin wolf riders (my favourite unit since I started collecting at 11 years old - 28 years ago now). Also, I would like to be able to introduce new players to the game, and have them be able to walk into the store and buy a copy. I also want balanced army lists. IMHO the current hardback books drifted well away from that. I would of hoped that at some point in the future they would of tightened them back up again.

I am now left with none of these hopes. New models seem to be upscaling to 35mm with a more cartooney look, so pretty unsuitable for use in WFB 8th. It looks increasingly unlikely that there will be any models that I will want to buy and make home brew rules for to play in 8th.

So in fairness, GW have totally stopped me 'carrying on as before', as there is now absolutely nothing to look forward to for my game (and the thousands of invested £), other than a slow gradual decline into the annals of history.

[Erik Setzer]

But unlike the vast majority of companies, GW has the capability to commit to a long term vision for it's products and I expect that they will maintain a continuous stream of new fluff and miniatures.

It's greatest obstacle in the short term is allowing all the Oldhammer diehards to just fade away and make room for new folks who can enjoy the AoS world without having folks constantly *****in and complaining.

I don't expect them to maintain anything if the sales don't end up being amazing and out of the ballpark. If they turn out to be underwhelming (even if it's a minor profit), I wouldn't be surprised to see GW cut the cord.

The greatest obstacle isn't the customers GW let down by destroying a game system because they didn't realize their business model was the real problem. The greatest obstacle is a combination of a continued poor business model and a game that doesn't really have any direction and is just telling the players to make up their own rules for playing with their toy soldiers (which is mainly a problem because that doesn't work so well for shared community experiences). You can see with the multiple comp systems and all that the AoS community itself is fragmented with people trying to figure out how they'd prefer to play the game, and it could create a mess for players going from one area to another having to figure out how that area likes to play the game. Without an official framework, it's just too much chaos. That kind of chaos sort of works with RPGs, but AoS isn't an RPG, it's a tabletop miniatures game. 40K came alive when they gave it more structure than the original Rogue Trader rules had.

Blaming other players because it's easier than having a frank discussion of a game with core flaws is just petty, and the AoS gamers doing that are, themselves, a huge turn-off and, as such, almost as much of an obstacle as GW not really committing to the game.

- - - Updated - - -


If they had inexplicably binned all their books - then fair enough.

If they had sold all their books prior, expecting to use the funds to buy whatever new ones came out - then fair enough.

But other than the above (I don't joke about house fires. They're terrifying) - then there is nothing preventing you from carrying on exactly as you were.

Ultimately I really don't care who does and doesn't enjoy AoS. It's utterly irrelevant to me. I enjoy it, and I continue to enjoy 8th Ed. I have all the books for both, because that's the sort of hobbyist I am. The investment is the same. Don't want the new offering? Stick with whatever works for you. The models are still out there to buy, and appropriately size square bases are plentiful and easy to come by - and the more esoterically sized ones can still be made out of Plasticard with little to no fuss.

So AoS is a non-issue. Nobody has done a Farenheit-451 on your collection of books.


Hmm. You know, the same argument could be made about Specialist Games. How many of those are being played at the local shop?

Oh, and if your local shop is a GW store, then you actually ARE banned from playing WFB there, just like Specialist Games, or anything else not currently on shelves.

So yeah, this whole argument is... well, there's no kind word for it.

And house fires are absolutely not something to joke about. That's one reason I don't have a complete collection right now. My dad and I had a pretty serious combined collection, most of it was in the middle room of my family's house when it caught fire and burned bad enough to have to be completely scrapped and rebuilt. Managed to save a good bit of figures at least, but not one of my favorite armies I'd worked on.

House fires are also a bit of a touchy subject for me recently... but that's a different, unrelated story.

[Ray Rivers]

frank discussion

I am painfully aware of your views and the cascade of criticism as I am sure most other folks who like AoS are as well to the point of.... ad nauseum.

[daboarder]

So just like the people being belligerent about those not absolutely falling all over themselves to love AOS?

Good to know everyones on the same page then.

Munningwing, well written article mate, much easier to read than the general rambling equivalents posted by other users.

[Lexington]

Of course it seems underdeveloped.
Eh, development is overrated. There's no critical mass of background material that a setting has to hit in order to achieve quality - the best ones are good right out of the gate. Infinity came out fully baked and interesting. VOR, too. The original Warmachine: Prime is still one of the most engrossing examples of the genre. Hell, 40K itself grabs you by the short hairs just from that intro text, leading you into the setting via the laughter of the thirsting gods.

AoS' problem isn't a lack of material, it's a lack of conviction. It's a universe conceived by committee, setting a net just wide enough to ensnare nobody in particular. You've got all these fumbling attempts at grandeur, using the old formula of syllabic mush strung together with prepositions, but it rings hollow because whatever poor drone oversaw all this only seems to have a dullard's understanding of how that magic worked for them in the past. To sum it up: No one gives a damn about the quiescent perils of the Ctan unless there's an Imperium guarding the Gates of Varl. Mystery needs a perspective to be investigated from, and GW's creative musculature is just too atrophied to do that kind of worldcrafting anymore. The only thing they excel at is making sure that every proper noun in the setting is copyrightable beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that you can buy them all at your local GW store. Which, strangely enough, no one seems to be doing. I'm sure there's a lot of time and sweat being spent at GW these days on pinpointing exactly why customers just don't seem to understand AoS' sublime brilliance as a sales tool. I wish them luck in their search for the obvious.


It's greatest obstacle in the short term is allowing all the Oldhammer diehards to just fade away and make room for new folks who can enjoy the AoS world without having folks constantly *****in and complaining.
Nah. The greatest obstacle AoS has is the fact that, beyond threads like this, no one seems to care about it. All the indicators show it's shaping up to be one of the biggest duds in GW's history. Blame it on those mean ol' Warhammer fans if you want, but if it was a thing worth the attention, you'd think those throngs of potential fans would be drowning out the dissatisfied old guard. That said old guard seem to be the only ones talking about AoS is one hell of a dire portent for he game's future.

[daboarder]

remember though lex. Apparently people arent talking about AOS because

1) they are playing it. Yup thats right, 24/7 they are doing nothing but playing AOS, doont even have time to post ideas and discuss the game they are so involved in on the bus too and from work just constantly all the time every single spare moment playing the game

or

2) there's very little to discuss if you aren't talking about balance. Yup no point posting about exciting background, presenting hobby ideas, campaign ideas, discussing different ways to play the game, designing missions looking for new players, posting battle reports asking for advice on how to use units in particular situations. Because AOS is pointless apparently all these potential topics of conversation are also pointless

[Lexington]

Them and those legions of satisfied Dreadfleet players, it seems.

[Andrew Thomas]

Of course, with my luck, AoS will be like DnD 4e, in that getting a decent game will be hard, and when it finally gets replaced, I'll be too interested in other things to actually want to play.

[Morgrim]

Them and those legions of satisfied Dreadfleet players, it seems.

I must be one of the few people that really enjoyed Dreadfleet and still lament that I lacked the funds to actually purchase it when it was available. >.>

[Muninwing]

Wow. You're coming at this from SUCH a different perspective to the gang in and around Sydney, the ones who spend time in the three GWs I frequent anyway.
They like Stormcast, because (when you read the novels) they're human and relatable. No spoilers, but my favourite is the one who just wants his immortality over with so he can join his wife in the afterlife.

i am. honestly, it died hard in the three local stores near my house. it was too different to be billed as a replacement, and as such older players tried it and allowed it to die... just as any shrewd business mind would have predicted. and without old players, new blood isn't having the opportunity to join in.

i do like that they are expanding somewhat on stormcast. and that sigmar might be a bit of a jerk. but we should give credit where credit is due -- if some people commenting here are willing to write off WHF as "copying" other works (moorcock, tolkien, howard, etc), then using an example copied right from a russel crowe movie isn't a great stance. at least he didn't sing. accusations of "this was just ripped off from..." in fantasy themes is tired and old. and while early WHF was definitely a cimmerian/melnibonean mashup... that was because they were forging a low fantasy world that felt like other low fantasy worlds. it became something more. and reading back then from now means you have to translate back through all the feedback that the 80s throws into something, which is always tricky.

while i will probably never play the game -- i do not like skirmish-level games, despite trying them time and time again, and this has the least pleasing elements of both skirmish and force games -- i am glad that some people are enjoying it. if GW were to put out as colossal failure as some imply this to have been, i would be nervous about that other lemons would tank every part of my hobby and i'd have to just walk away now...

[Ray Rivers]

The greatest obstacle AoS has is the fact that, beyond threads like this, no one seems to care about it. All the indicators show it's shaping up to be one of the biggest duds in GW's history. Blame it on those mean ol' Warhammer fans if you want, but if it was a thing worth the attention, you'd think those throngs of potential fans would be drowning out the dissatisfied old guard. That said old guard seem to be the only ones talking about AoS is one hell of a dire portent for he game's future.

I don't blame anything on the "old guard." The "old guard" gave up on Warhammer long ago. People have moved on, and it appears that migration is towards skirmish games and not big battle games. Personally, I think, in general, folks don't have the time in today's modern era to paint up literally hundreds of miniatures just to play a game, especially the younger folks. So overall I think that the majority of folks who used to play Warhammer are long gone.

What we are left with are a cadre of folks who are filled with venom and hate directed not just towards AoS, but GW in specific.

(Put that line by itself so that it is easy for ya'll to quote. ;))

And you see this everywhere on the net. As an example, the folks at Beasts of War were going to do a series of articles on AoS. They were bombarded with hateful comments and nothing ever came of the project.

The intent is clear and you see it on pretty much on every miniatures forum you can name: To bludgeon people with hateful comments not just to smear AoS, but to force them to not even post. Just look at the stuff on this thread. Folks venting their hatred towards GW. AoS is just a convenient excuse.

So yea, you don't see hordes of folks posting about AoS because people aren't willing to "battle" with all those dreadful folks who think they can run the only worldwide miniatures company on earth.

Now, from the perspective of a business owner, I can only say that I have had plenty of folks who think they can run my business better than me. Normally, 1) these folks are not even customers and 2) when they are people who have businesses, their business is poorly run. I make my own decisions thank you, and if you think you can do better, then start your own.

The one thing we can all be sure about is that internet community is very good at hating. The fact that people succumb so easily isn't because they have changed their minds, it is because what happens on the internet, really doesn't reflect reality. You can rant all you want and it will not stop me from buying and playing AoS miniatures, terrain, books and games. What it does do, however, is leave forums a swamp of hate filled cra p which folks just abandon. So in the end, the haters are giving each other high fives while the rest of the folks (might I guess... adults) just leave the room, never to come back.

Does all this hating effect the game? Of course. But it won't bankrupt GW as so many folks long to see. Like Rogue Trader (and the internet) before it, AoS will succeed or fail based on what happens in the real world and not here or on any other forum.

[Erik Setzer]

I must be one of the few people that really enjoyed Dreadfleet and still lament that I lacked the funds to actually purchase it when it was available. >.>

My only problem with Dreadfleet, though kind of a big one, is that I used to play Man'O'War and thought they'd actually be doing a new version of that game. It was ridiculously fun, and I'm sad that they never seem to remember it. Some of the Dreadfleet models were just old MOW models, too (perhaps all of them?). On its own merits, it's not bad. It would have worked as a good launching point to bring back MOW.

- - - Updated - - -


2) there's very little to discuss if you aren't talking about balance. Yup no point posting about exciting background, presenting hobby ideas, campaign ideas, discussing different ways to play the game, designing missions looking for new players, posting battle reports asking for advice on how to use units in particular situations. Because AOS is pointless apparently all these potential topics of conversation are also pointless

Actually, this is where AoS frustrates me most... There's potential there, but it's just left on the floor, malnourished. I bought a Dwarf Slayer just to convert a "Fyreslayer" (that spelling makes me cringe), because the idea of a Dwarf with literally flaming hair is awesome, even if that's not quite what they are. There are tiny throwaway bits of the fluff that are interesting. But then they drown that out with a rather dull and boring overarching story, and we still don't know why we're supposed to care about these scraps of living flesh who've managed to survive a few hundred years of Chaos rule. There's no resistance movement, nothing to suggest anyone is trying to fight back, no hint of what the nations were that got destroyed before we could even be introduced to them. It's just so... empty. There's potential, but rather than do anything with it, they want to push their new models' factions as being the most important and, in doing so, make everyone else so devoid of importance that the game might as well be just two factions, one of which is kind of dull. People can find drama in that faction, but at the end of the day, they're Space Marines with less personality.

There's also contradictions and the fluff just feels so sloppy in places that thinking of it makes my head hurt.

It could be good... but they're just too lazy to care.

- - - Updated - - -


The intent is clear and you see it on pretty much on every miniatures forum you can name: To bludgeon people with hateful comments not just to smear AoS, but to force them to not even post. Just look at the stuff on this thread. Folks venting their hatred towards GW. AoS is just a convenient excuse.

Bollocks.

If AoS had more support for it than against it, the people wanting stuff for AoS could drown out the others. Or are you saying the people who like AoS are easily cowed into being quiet, and will give up their own happiness because someone on the Internet has a different opinion? Wow. If a game's base is made up of people like that, it's going to fail.

The reality is people dislike AoS, and because of that, they dislike GW, because GW made the choice to kill off a 30-year-old game just because they wouldn't admit their business plan was broken. It's not the other way around, with people disliking AoS just because they dislike GW.

Your post just sounds... offensive and ridiculous, to say it as kindly as anyone can say it. You're blaming other people for the game's lack of success, when a good enough game could get around critics. You're trying to find excuses, and those excuses are ludicrous.

And a lot of people don't want to see GW go bankrupt. They want it to go back to the customer-friendly gaming company it was when it was growing. They can just remain silent and GW *will* keep losing money. In that sense, you want GW to go bankrupt more than any person who dislikes AoS.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Personally, AoS died here despite the best concerted efforts of the local store owner, partly due to balancing issues, and partly due to people not caring. That said, WHFB had a quiet following here that never really played it, merely owned it, so probably not the best litmus test.

AoS got a good try from most of us, but it feels too simplistic. I dunno, I'd say it's the perfect game for a new person who wants to get into The Hobby as a whole, before they move onto something a bit more cerebral. It seems to draw from a lot of the lessons GW learned in LotR, WHFB, and 40K, but ultimately ended up with something complete unlike any of them with the gaming flavour of wallpaper paste.

The balance was actually the biggest problem, despite our local being pretty non-competitive. The local store owner and a regular got massively into it, the store owner resurrected an Ogre force and built it up, and the regular got into the Sigmarines hard. They had regular weekly games, and one of them would thrash the other. Then the other would slightly adjust the list, maybe add another unit, and thrash the other. They realised after a month or two that they were literally incapable of fielding comparable lists, because they had no reference on how many Ogres a Sigmarine was worth, or vice versa.

It also doesn't help, personally, that I kinda like the challenge of list-building. It forces me to think and strategise, to a point. 170pts left in my Guard list, do I take a Manticore for some across-the-board firepower, a Demolisher for a linebreaker tank, or a Vendetta for some AA/AT support that I can pop a small squad in. Each of them has done me proud at some point, but it forces me to step back and think how the whole thing's going to work together and how each element supports the others.

The AoS format applied to 40K would result in me simply putting my 15K of Guard on the table every game and steamrolling my opponent. Despite it being pretty fluffy for a Guard army, it'd be a heck of a hollow victory.

[Muninwing]

I don't blame anything on the "old guard." The "old guard" gave up on Warhammer long ago. People have moved on...

the Old Guard got the brunt of the blame for the demise of WHF... but that was more CEOs refusing to consider their role in undermining their own product.

and "not buying until the next edition fixes all the stupidity going on right now" is not "moved on" -- it's desperately trying not to move on.

sales dropped. why? because the game was not worth investing in. some of the models that came out, regardless of prices, were astounding. Wood Elf and Dark Elf stuff, in particular, was both beautiful and well constructed. but buying Witch Elves at $60 boxes (different when it was metals at $50, adjusted for inflation up to the $60) didn;t go over well -- because who wants to invest in a game that's either way too easy if your army is "top-tier" or too frustrating if your army is "bottom tier" and there's no effort to rectify the obvious problems from the parent comany that cannot be bothered to invest in their own product.

i play(ed) Beastmen. i was used to being an underdog (no pun intended). i looked forward to the 8th ed rules to smooth out some of the problems, and was gifted with more problems. before that, i had wanted to see the army have some minor fixes to make them playable in a new generation... and was given a completely different army with a total background change and a huge shift in play style (which was what attracted me to them in the first place, sadly). instead of investing points into an army i did not find fun to play, i put more into my 40k stuff. and the same happened in my area, meaning that there was less impulse to actually buy for a game that would be difficult to play.

new rules would have helped. 9th partially being a reversal of the damage that 8th did... and on and on. that was too hard, so instead we got a completely different game. one that was foolishly billed as a replacement for a game it was nothing like.

most of the hate that AoS initially got was from the terrible way GW launched it. and blaming the very people who could have supported the new game after killing the one they liked was seen as adding insult to injury. thus, a lot of the hate involved comes out of a personal slight (or a perceived one) by those who should have been relied upon to support and grow the new game.

[Erik Setzer]

most of the hate that AoS initially got was from the terrible way GW launched it.

Yeah, the AoS launch was basically a textbook example of what NOT to do.

You have WFB out there, and you put together this exciting series of books and new models (End Times), which rejuvenates interest in it. And suddenly people are buying into WFB and speculating how these rules might signal changes in a new edition of the game.

Then, suddenly, out of the blue, you tell people there's a new game with a new name. It's a completely new setting, not like the game they've been playing for years at all, and all the books they just bought are completely useless. Models are recommended on a completely different base shape now as well. Everything's entirely different. No warning. No hint that the books you were charging a lot for would suddenly be moot. Just prompt people to spend a lot on a game, and suddenly kill that game off, and bring out something totally different without advance warning and expect people to warm to it.

And they didn't think there'd be problems with that? You'd have to be stupid - or, potentially, just literally insane - to think that'd be a good idea. At the very least, there should have been a buffer between End Times and AoS, so the memory of six months with hundreds of dollars spent on WFB stuff wasn't fresh in folks' minds. Then advertise the new game, which was so vastly different. Let people know what's coming. Give them time to prepare mentally.

The sheer stupidity of this from a marketing and business standpoint is astounding. They set themselves up for failure. It'll take a lot of work to pull a serious long-term success out of it.

[Muninwing]

Actually, this is where AoS frustrates me most... There's potential there, but it's just left on the floor, malnourished. I bought a Dwarf Slayer just to convert a "Fyreslayer" (that spelling makes me cringe), because the idea of a Dwarf with literally flaming hair is awesome, even if that's not quite what they are. There are tiny throwaway bits of the fluff that are interesting. But then they drown that out with a rather dull and boring overarching story, and we still don't know why we're supposed to care about these scraps of living flesh who've managed to survive a few hundred years of Chaos rule. There's no resistance movement, nothing to suggest anyone is trying to fight back, no hint of what the nations were that got destroyed before we could even be introduced to them. It's just so... empty. There's potential, but rather than do anything with it, they want to push their new models' factions as being the most important and, in doing so, make everyone else so devoid of importance that the game might as well be just two factions, one of which is kind of dull. People can find drama in that faction, but at the end of the day, they're Space Marines with less personality.

There's also contradictions and the fluff just feels so sloppy in places that thinking of it makes my head hurt.



i've heard this a lot, and it's the core of my issue as well.

compound this with the rumors they had let fly unrestrained, you had a community already annoyed with the decreasing quality of the products they were buying who became convinced that they were getting a rebooted game that would potentially clean up the past problems. instead...

one of the most compelling ideas (at elast to me) is that we are not the first civilization, not the first era, not the first empire. that before us, there were others... and maybe more before them. reading about Harrapa and Mohenjo-Daro, about Babylon, about Schleimann's excavations of what might be Troy, about Carthage, and having the remnants and ghosts of their civilizations to show us that the world is bigger than we thought it was. learning about Gobekli Tepe and realizing that it is possibly 13,000 years older than our childhoods, when a vocal minority believe tha thte world isn't even half that age, breaks the mind.

What were the realms? what did they look like before Khorne's second rise? why start with a dead world with a prior history, if you are not going to bother creating the ghost of what was? good writing includes deatils that have significance, not dropped lines that never go anywhere. proper editors help to cull the unnecessary and create a more succinct product.

had GW taken their time and released AoS when it was a complete thought with a unified overarcing vision... and had not tried to bill it as a replacement for something it was never like... and had considered keeping a form that would work for the old guard...

etc etc.

the older players who are now crying "rank and flank forever!" are justified in their anger. but not in keeping their grudge. move on or be quiet, but leave those who feel otherwise to enjoy their game, even if you are envious of that game as it used to be according to GW.

even so... in a world that is now thousands of years old on to of thousands of years of prehistory, it does not feel as if any of the history matters in the least. empires could have risen and fallen, entire societies and cultures and eras could have shaped and modified thinking, incorporating new aesthetics into the game... but no. nothing. literally nothing. and what does exit may as well be norse myth fanfiction written by a 14-year-old who just discovered that the greeks didn't write the only ancient stories.

i'm glad they are expanding, trying to even it all out. but even the last 40k book (the tau campaign) was horribly written. that's only making it harder to dig out of the hole they created.

[Morgrim]

A steadier transition may have helped. Release AoS and say "this is where the setting is going" right upfront. Release the free rules for using WFB models in AoS, say it's preferentially on round bases but any base is okay, and maybe bring out some of those round base ranking sheets used in War of the Ring.

Then go back and release an edition of WFB set right after the End Times. Say that forces are scattered and tumbling through loose portals and nobody has any clue what is going on. If you give rules for certain special characters, mention that they're legacy rules only so you can still use the models. Start modifying the rules of WFB to match up better to AoS, so that everyone knows that this is the direction things are going.

And then in the fluff everybody KNOWS that the humans are going to get crushed and be left scattered, desperate outcasts fighting to hide from Chaos. Everyone KNOWS the elves are going to [whatever happened to the elves goes here. Kidnapped to a pocket dimension by Slaanesh?]. It's clear and obvious that chaos is going to win! But the fun is seeing HOW they win. And knowing that after another couple of books with a century or two of timeskip in between, Sigmar is going to crash back into the scene with his shiny new army and fight back.

It'd give people more time to adapt and a bridge to keep the fluffy side going.

[Erik Setzer]

Yeah, the point where we are in the fluff is really a horrible place to start out. There was a setting there, it might have been interesting, but it's already been steamrolled by Chaos and every civilization crushed so hard that the only survivors left are slaves or people running for their lives who are amazed to live past 18 (which really doesn't explain how they haven't gone extinct... apparently the oldest and youngest are the easiest prey, so I'm not sure how any children even get to their late teens, and they'd have to start procreating the moment they became physically capable). Chaos came along and crushed things, but didn't get an "ultimate" victory (because of really flimsy reasons). And now it's just Sigmar launching an offensive to take everything back. There's just no stakes there... From the point we're starting, literally the only direction you can go is up, and either we know the good guys are going to keep winning or Sigmar's guys are just weak and pointless and we're just watching a really protracted stalemate at best (but more likely End Times II: Chaotic Boogaloo).

Speaking of that flimsy reason for Chaos not wrecking everything... If Khorne really was ascendant and Khorne was wrecking the other gods, then how is Tzeentch so powerful he remade Kairos? Kairos was destroyed to summon a Khorne Greater Daemon (Ka'banda or something like that... sorry, no caffeine yet). That's not really something a daemon comes back from. It was one more "meaningful" death that turned out to not happen. (And we still have no explanation for why so many people who died are suddenly back and seemingly immortal, with the added bonus that Malekith forgot what his name is.)

The timeline is really weird, too. It's been at least a thousand years or so. Civilizations had a few hundred years to grow, and Chaos wrecked the joint a few hundred years ago (which is another reason it's hard to believe humanity isn't extinct, at least free humans). So that means Tyrion and Malekith have been searching for Slaanesh to cut his belly open and free the Elves for over a thousand years (and Teclis may or may not be with them).

Oh bother... I'm actually thinking about it again. It hurts. I want to go off on a rant about all the holes in the story, the ways it makes no sense, but most of all, the problem that we have zero reason to even care about anyone in the setting.

[Ray Rivers]

Wow... amazing.

Look, I was never a fan of GW. I don't buy any of their products... at least up until the release of AoS. So I don't really care about the what happened with Warhammer's rules, mini's, etc. I never liked Warhammer. I am not compelled to "Die for the Emperor." So all that "history" is nothing but irrelevant noise to me.

And there is absolutely no way to "kindly" discontinue a 30 year line of miniatures... or any product for that matter. I have run a cafe in Europe for 22 years. Now where I live is a "Coke" friendly place and we have sold that product for 21 years. However, their service, quality of product and management incompetence forced me to switch to "Pepsi." I didn't give my customers any notice. I didn't explain to them the problems I was having with the company, I just stopped serving Coke and started serving Pepsi. Now, of course, some folks didn't like that. But they didn't stand in front of my place raging at me for changing. And I didn't bombard Coke with complaints about their company. Only loons act that way in real life.

I mean lets be clear. If you ran across a guy standing in front of a Games Workshop store with a sign that says "Your miniatures are too expensive," people would think you should see a doctor, or possibly kindly direct you to another toy company. We are talking about toys here.

So please folks, try to put some perspective into your life. I mean, is it really THAT important to grief folks who like a product you don't?

[Auticus]

If one's goals are to crusade and dissuade people from buying a product to try to force a company out of business, then yes trolling and griefing are common tactics to use.

[Erik Setzer]

Switching your drinks from Coke to Pepsi isn't the same as telling someone, "You know those hundreds of dollars you just spent? Yeah, we're making that stuff obsolete. Also, we're killing off the game you enjoy, and it will never be produced again. But hey, buy this new game in a new setting!"

And customers of any kind who are upset with a company should feel free to let the company know. That doesn't mean they're "lacking perspective." They're simply letting a company know why it lost that person's sales.

[Reldane]

I have to Agree with Erik on that matter, the comparison of switching from Coke to Pepsi falls down pretty fast (not least that you can buy coke from the newsagents 2 shops down). A better comparison would be if your local sport team (lets say Soccer) decided that rather that buying new players to revitalise the team they instead decided to buy a full (if mediocre) team for a completely different game (say basketball). People might like watching the basketball and all the old merchandise would still be sort of relevant; but it is at its heart a different sport, not the soccer that the old fans spent years following.

[Xaric]

Most of the activity of AOS has moved away from forums and more onto groups on facebook because when AOS first came out it showed the true nature of a toxic community on forums and people just don't have time to deal with the childish ramblings. I am part of a active community group on facebook.

[Cutter]

At the end of July, i wrote this:

“i have a guess that the Age of Sigmar will eventually become something interesting, maybe even worth playing. but i started seeing what it was, heard that there was no WHF 9th, and wrote it off.”

the other day, i looked at the AoS discussion board, and the first post i saw was titled “i am losing interest” with the next titled something like "so nobody has posted here in a week" (and to their credit, even reading it later, nobody had except in the pinned posts above) -- and it made me sad on a deep level.

see, WHF and 40k are, for me, more than just games. they are creative outlets, a reminder of good times and bad -- my wife and i started dating when i was a redshirt, and we spent a lot of time in our first year doing projects together while i worked 60+ hour weeks. it was an escape from toxic roommate situations, a bonding experience with friends, an expander of social circles, and generally a positive and beneficial influence on me, even when i may have spent too much time or too much money on one project or another.

when i’ve stopped playing, it has been out of frustration… or due to a lack of opportunity… or because life gets in the way. never due to boredom.

ever since i started exploring the larger-than-life fluff created for the two leading games GW has created, i’ve been absorbed. some better than others. some writers are better than others (and some are as good as modern bestsellers, while others are as bad as some modern bestsellers... Abnett’s Grisham to Goto’s Meyer). the idea of losing interest in a game that should be riveting and fun, and in a world that is nuanced and thorough yet with plenty of room left for expansion, it boggles my mind that someone could get bored with it.

then i remember…

End Times was rushed. Age of Sigmar killed a whole developed world. change in gameplay, change in fundamental structures, change in genre, all led toward the new game being fundamentally different in nearly every way. the rallying cry of “rank and flank forever!” faded gradually, KoW and Oldhammer ate those still kicking (my local group has a 6th ed league running with houserules to tweak certain armybooks), and GW is still embargoing the results of AoS. It might have succeeded more than the stuffed shirts had expected, but rather than admit that they had made bad policies that poisoned the original, they just set the bar really low and accepted failure. because it sells models.

today (i started writing this a bit ago) there was a frontpage article about seeing WHF8th online for sale, and wondering whether it had been taken down and put back up. ultimately, it was grasping at straws, hope beyond reason that somehow GW would “see the light” and release the WHF 9th rules we secretly think they stashed somewhere. there were rumors just before ET of the Brettonian books already having been printed, and sitting in a warehouse (though i do not think they were terribly credible, since they disappeared pretty quickly), and i know a number of Brett fans who decided to just quit the game when ET razed all they loved in the game almost as an afterthought, instead of giving them the update they were long in wait for.

GW is really bad about rumors. rumors are a tool to use, not a runaway train to shape the hopes of your community. but therein lies the real issue -- they see their product like any other, like gaskets or widgets or wrenches. there isn’t a gasket aficionados club meeting every week to use their widgets. there aren’t online message boards with the volume of stories and arguments and support for wrenches. nobody has written a novel series that i am aware of about the merits and flaws and underlying archetypes of various brands of gaskets, read by people who may have gasket brand tattoos or display cases full of their own gasket collections at home.

i would lose interest in gaskets. i already have in widgets. i like Malifaux in concept, but i rarely play because it has not succeeded in capturing my interest. had there been more to the background, more to the story, more influence locally, and more of a narrative campaign to go along with the game itself, i’d probably still be playing that week after week. in contrast, even though i took the 40k’s 5.5 era off out of annoyance at the obvious bad quality control of OP lists and bad support, i found that i will come back to it in different forms time and time again. there’s a weight to it that gaskets do not have. and how sad that WHF had that weight and that story, but AoS cut itself off from effectively utilizing any of it? it is no wonder why many communities have struggled or rebelled against AoS as an alternative to other games.

community is something that love of the game and competitive play created. it does not need to be WAAC, or fluffy, or anything but what you make it. it doesn’t need to be perfect. but to even allow it to seem that they show active scorn for veteran players is the worst business idea ever -- loyal customers are easier to rely on than courting new ones, and giving sustained options to loyal customers is far more guaranteed than getting a first-timer to invest more.

not everything needs weight. i mentioned that Dumas’ “The Count of Monte Cristo” lacks gravitas for me -- it’s a great story of revenge and plotting, and it has its own significance and place in the western canon, but in the end it’s a fun fluff piece by a superior writer, who just so happens to write fun adventure stories instead of weighty atmospheric masterpieces. I cheered when i first read it, and i remember the mental picture i had from outside the Morcerf estate of Fernand’s pistol-report, the intrigue of the voices at the coliseum before you learn of Edmond’s full reinvention of himself, the full ghastly realization of the Marquise’s horrible nature... but it taught me no lesson i didn’t already know. that one in particular suffers from some structural issues -- having been written on-call and released chapter-by-chapter in a periodical instead of treated as one complete draft. earlier, i asserted that AoS had not been given the time to grow in weight and mass, but that it hadn’t was a critical flaw of their upper management, and a sign that they were releasing an incomplete product. now, we have a product months later without any added weight, but over-the-top attempts at storytelling that hasn’t managed to add significance or interest to the game at all. heavy-handed usage of old character ideas without actual development does not develop the new generation of heroes for this new era of time.

we see three months in passing, and we see no better fluff, no rational cosmic definition, no overarcing plan, and it still smacks of hollowness. and people are getting bored. i know that some people were instantly against the idea of AoS, and that others loved to see WHF be something (even something new) so flocked to the game even in new form. reports of play trailing off have become the norm, even if a few groups have been revitalized -- but GW is stoically silent. almost as if they have no idea what to do now that their panicked plan b has stalled out, and without an actual unified idea of how to move the product forward while putting as little of their resources as can be managed. just as the Stormcast seem neat at first -- Knight-Einherjar, Sentient Steel Golem veterans of a past age, militant angels in chivalric finery, how could someone make that boring? but they have no downside, no flaw… they have no personality past being nameless soldiers in empty suits of armor. instead of being parallels of storied SM dreadnoughts awakened from slumber, they are blank rank-and-file necrons for all their personality is dictated by atmosphere instead of detail.

don’t get me wrong… as much as i feel that the animosity that GW fostered was (a) completely predictable (b) completely avoidable and (c) utterly their own fault, i know that sometimes ideas just don’t work as planned, regardless of how thorough the work before the release. but if a good product and a cohesive plan can still fail, what about such an obviously halfhearted one?

it could have been ok.

i would have eaten my words -- and been glad to do so -- had they turned it around. whether they responded by adopting Azyrcomp (which, IMO, is the best-written part of any rules applied to AoS... and it's not even written by GW) as an official metric, by releasing fluff-based components with quality writing that fleshed out the vast blank spots with at very least a general concept. we've never been treated to a Cathay book, but we know it exists... and we know of Hrud and Interex and Ghoul Stars and the insides of lower levels of a hive city without actually reading about them in detail. one "this is the new planes atlas" announcement and i'd have been optimistic that AoS and its new world were not going to just get boring.

It had no weight at release. it is fun, i'll admit -- i mildly enjoyed the few games i've played. but it has no staying power without real support. and "support" does not mean just reinforcing the two sides of the board game starter.

let's give it another three months and see what happens. will it have added enough significance and gravity to withstand the post-winter lull? to weather the shift as spring reminds us that there is an outside, and some of us get distracted by other hobbies or other people? will it be able to sustain a summer campaign... or a lack of one, should GW choose not to give the support a new game needs to establish itself?

just in case the rumor of today -- the "specialist games department" announcement -- has any truth to it... maybe AoS could be beefed up in nature by support from other types and styles of play? maybe AoS could become a specialist game, and some alternate rules that support troop blocks could be promotes? maybe the reverse -- a sort of "AoS apoc" game could come out that uses rank-and file?

at this point, nobody knows what GW is going to do. from the looks of it, even them.

Don't hate that you were right, everyone else will do that for you.

[Just Tony]

Most of the activity of AOS has moved away from forums and more onto groups on facebook because when AOS first came out it showed the true nature of a toxic community on forums and people just don't have time to deal with the childish ramblings. I am part of a active community group on facebook.

That may be the case, the other offering by pro-AOS posters on here and other forums is that there's a huge AOS following that simply doesn't go on message boards or facebook groups. Here's a question, how many people are in your FB group? And also, how many are also members of other FB groups? I think those numbers would be far more telling that any pro-AOSer wants to admit.

[Alaric]

Don't hate that you were right, everyone else will do that for you.

True words.


That whole post of his should be an article

[Path Walker]

That may be the case, the other offering by pro-AOS posters on here and other forums is that there's a huge AOS following that simply doesn't go on message boards or facebook groups. Here's a question, how many people are in your FB group? And also, how many are also members of other FB groups? I think those numbers would be far more telling that any pro-AOSer wants to admit.

Well, the most active one I am in, which has a really positive community sharing and encouraging hobby and games just over 2000 and is busier than this forum(as in- BOLS Lounge) in terms of activity, traffic and, I expect, unique visits.

Forums are a dying medium, facebook groups killed them, even then, most hobbyists probably aren't a member of either, they just play their game, same as ever.