CSM Wishlist

[CrossbowSniper]

What would you like to see in the new Chaos Space Marine codex if/when it comes out?

I'd love to see some devoted vehicles. Not making them daemons, but something like a mark with specific rules for vehicles like this:

Vehicle of Khorne: +25pts
Vehicle counts as fast. If the vehicle is a walker, it may run and charge in the same turn.

Vehicle of Nurgle: +30pts
Vehicle gains Shrouded

Vehicle of Slaanesh: +20pts
Vehicle may fire its weapons at different targets.

Vehicle of Tzeentch: +45pts
Add 1 to the strength of all the vehicle's weapons.

Not really definitive, but I would love to see something similar to this. Just make it so it can't also be applied to the daemon engines (they can just be upgraded to daemons of (God) instead) and I think it's a fun idea

[Mr Mystery]

Veteran Cult Troops

I'm no Chaos player myself (at least, not yet. Calth may change things somewhat) but it really strikes me as pants that there is currently no delineation on the board between say, a Khorne Berzerker, and a World Eaters Berzerker.

Your more Vanilla Berzerker is someone who has fallen to Khorne and gone a bit chicken oriental in the head.

A World Eater Berzerker? Fighting for millennia, or at least during the Heresy, and has Butchers Nails driving them even further into a frenzy.

Same goes for the other Cult troops. Have your basic or garden variety as Troops options, and your Traitor Legionnaires (very different to modern Space Marines) as your Elites. Slaanesh with better weapons (they have the originals, after all), Thousand Sons with more potent Sorcerors (they've got good over the millennia. You can tell, because they still have their own soul), Plague Marines more infectious (same diseases, but with millennia of co-evolution with one another..mmm....virulent!) and Berzerkers as above.

Cultists slot buffed

Give them the option of being lead by a Dark Apostle. Purely a thematic request. Have their unit organisation closer to IG - so potential for a single squad, or a 'command squad' lead by a Dark Apostle, and additional Brotherhoods.

Veterans of the Long War

As is, but also pick from a list of USR. They've been doing this for a long, long time. A very long, long time. Show it.

Enmity Rules

To offset the suggested Veteran Legionnaire rules. World Eaters and Emperor's Children should not get on. Reflect this. It lets those who want a hotch-potch force have some background rules to consider, and helps to encourage and reward mono-theistic forces

Steal from the Cult Mechanicus!

Dunno if you've read it, but the Canticles of the Omnissiah get better the more units you have on the board. Something similar, but for Gods and their followers. Again, this helps to encourage and reward mono-theistic forces, without necessarily punishing mixed god forces.

[Charistoph]

I'll put it as simply as I can.

Legion Traits for Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Fallen, Word Bearers, and Renegades.

No Veteran Cult Troops. Now, before you get excited over this concept, let me possibly assuage you with this. Daemonkin codices should have the Veteran Cult Troops and the Legion Traits for the 4 Cult Armies. Plague Terminators should be in Nurgle Daemonkin. Dust Havoks should be in Tzeentch Daemonkin. Noise Hellbrutes should be in Slaanesh Daemonkin. And so on. The current Cult units should be kept (except perhaps Thousand Sons) as is.

There should be Brotherhood of Sorcerer units, though this may be better reserved for Tzeentch Daemonkin, they would be a good possible replacement for Tzeentch Cult Units, except seeing access to Nurgle or Slaanesh options would still be nice.

More Daemon Engines would be nice, but if we're going that way, allow for corrupted Loyalist modified gear to be an option. Razorbacks, Drop Pods, Redeemers, Hunters, Stalkers, Whirlwinds, etc, should be available, even if with slightly different gear (ex: Reaper Launcher being in place of Assault Cannons, Combi-bolters for Storm Bolters, etc.)

While I think a review of the 3.5 Edition is in proper order, it is not quite how the armies are set up right now, but we can get close without following the ridiculous Iron Warriors path, either.

[daboarder]

Legion warband rules
Legion warband rules
Legion warband rules
Legion warband rules
Legion warband rules
Legion warband rules

Honestly, this is stated every time these threads come up and if GW actually did market research theyd have done it by now. I mean not only is it ridiculous that there is more variation between loyalist codex adherents. Its also ridiculous that the armies that were never forced to take up said codex all opperate the same.

Throw in the fact that warbands range in size and organization from a couple of CSMs and cultists to rivaling the legions of old its just silly

[grimmas]

Legion Rules

In fact a proper differentiation between Legion Units (think Chosen with Legion specific USRs) and more recent Traitors ("ordinary" CSMs)

I'd like to see the Codex be more Marines and less Dinobots, it is supposed to be Codex Chaos Space Marines not Codex Dark Mechanicus which it effectively is at the moment.

Chain axes being a str bonus and shred rather than having an ap bonus (just a personal bugbear chain weapons do lots of damage against flesh they aren't better at penetrating armour) and being available to more more units.

Power of the machine spirit it or some suitably Chaosy equivalent on Land Raiders.

A plastic Obliterator/Mutilator set would be nice.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Legion tactics no more complex than the ones in Codex Marines.
With the "ultramarines" equiv being 'renegades' and the others being for the various main factions, including Red Corsairs obviously.
Old Legions being represented by formations, whichbwhen rolled together with a demi-company esque formation make a Chaos Warband.
That's my first instinct anyway.
And models wise I'd like cult troops redone (with terminator and character upgrade bits on the sprues) and undivided chosen.
Maybe a multikit obliterator and mutilator box that makes them Centurion sized.
A new dinobot, something that fills the power gap between Maulerfiend and the Lord 'O Skulls.
That sounds good.

[Mr Mystery]

And a shout out for the frankly superb list in IA:13.

I'll never get bored or be done with praising it. So many options, precious little off the table.

Only downside is that you really need to plan your army in your head, write your list, then set about procuring the models. Kind of the opposite to my usual 'buy the precious things, then write a list' approach.

[Lexington]

Cult Terminators. That's my one big wish from a unit standpoint. Not Khorne-marked Terminators, but actual friggin' Berzerkers in Terminator Armor.

Overall, though, I wish the book weren't so...punishing. There's so much in the Codex that makes you feel like you have no control of the army, and usually with very little benefit. Piddly Aspiring Champions must Challenge everything from Terminator Captains to Carnifexes, all for the dubious privilege of rolling on a chart that might get you a +1 BS bonus. Vehicles eat passengers to regain a Hull Point they may not even need, and is almost never crucial anyway. Et cetera, et cetera. This isn't a restriction that holds back the tremendous power of the book - almost everything in the book is strictly worse than any Imperial counterpart - it's just another downside to playing an army that feels like a tertiary priority, at best, to the Studio.

I love the idea of Chaos giving the player a higher risk/reward threshold than most books, representing the raw-but-fickle power of Chaos, but the current setup forces a ton of risk for next to no reward.


In fact a proper differentiation between Legion Units (think Chosen with Legion specific USRs) and more recent Traitors ("ordinary" CSMs)
Between VotLW and Chosen, I feel like the current Codex setup already does this pretty well. It might not be executed well on the object level - VotLW is often overpriced, I'd say, and Chosen just plain suck - but the structure's fine, IMO.

[Mr Mystery]

Cult Terminators would be ace, and I'd like to see those from Horus Heresy adopted, because they look ace! Not even bothered if they're much cop or not. They look ace.

And they need to work on the Marks. I've found them a wee bit bland ever since 6th Ed Warhammer (which had ace ones)

Again, as a non-Chaos player to me there's nothing wrong with the book as a Codex. As with most it has some ace units, some perfectly fine units, and some you really need to work hard with to get them pulling their weight. But.....it doesn't feel like a Chaos book. It feels too regimented.

Chaos desperately needs a solid variety of Formations. Through those, your central list can be a general list - the Formations bring the real goodies. I know there's a lot of jealousy out there for the toys Astartes get in that regard, and rightly so (I got Kauyon yesterday, dear lord White Scars and Raven Guard have some filth!).

I'd love to see Chaos Formations represent individual Warbands of Chaos Marines, Chaos Cults and Cultist Marines.

That done, you're getting closer to my feel of Chaos - relatively few large, cohesive forces. Instead lots of almost Piratical Warbands who can when necessary operate together.

Then, just as Kauyon has done for White Scars and Raven Guard, specific Legions get additional ones in campaign books.

[Mr.Gold]

I like the Idea of Mr Mystery with Cult Mechanicus Canticles Equivelent - somthing that would reward fluffy play...
also I think that a large portion of the book should include some 30k things, not necessarrily massive tanks but things like the option to have Vulkite Blasters/Culverns as a special weaon representing the traitor marines dating back to the HH, but not having more things like whirlwinds and land speeders.
Daemon Princes that can be Undivided.
better psychic tables (especially for Tzeentch).
the idea of formation representing warbands of distinct types of traitors and thus giving a benefit is also a good one however there would need to be some smaller formations e.g. 2-3 units at min so you could still use that type of traitor in a smallish game (e.g. around 1000pts).

[Djbz]

Legion/warband specific rules (and/or detachments)
Chaos Lords being equal to chapter masters (Or upgrade-able to similar) And be upgradeable to cult level (i.e Bezerker Lord/Noise Lord/Plaugelord)
Unique characters- (sigh). (Look at Ahiraman compared to Tigerius-80pts more for a model that is worse in virtually every possible way)
Return of the Sorceror lord and the Chaos Lieutenant
Warpsmith should actually compare to a loyalist techmarine (warpsmith is nearly twice the cost for the same stats without ATSKNF or chapter tactics)
Bring back the daemonic gifts from "3.5"
Chaos versions of the 'recent' loyalist tanks(they would steal them or modify what they already have at the very least)
POTMS for land raiders- it is still there in the background
Marks of chaos and cult marines being appropriately priced (mark of slaanesh for example, 2 points for +1 I seriously? Goes double for character marks (15!!!!) especially when you consider that you may want an ap2 melee weapon-which are all unwieldy)
Cultists having infiltrate (they are just worse versions of guardsmen as they are now)
Full sized psychic lores for Tzneetch, Nurgle and Slaanesh (and them being good!)
Daemon princes being T 6. and different stats and points for each different god's Daemon princes(There is a Space marine character that is TOUGHER than them- what the heck!?!)
The "Hellbrute", needs everything that the loyalist dread got in the last codex And to be 5 pts cheaper(chaos have to buy the underslung weapon on the powerfist)
Daemon weapons for each of the chaos gods-not just the one like the current codex
Mutilators and Obliterators should be T5 again
Mark of nurgle should give feel no pain instead of +1 T (T6 bikers is a bit mental)
And decent relics. 2 are restricted to specific marks, 1 requires a melee kill to become a glorified teleport homer. 1 that is a 35pt powersword unless you reach base contact with a specific character- who will be avoiding him like the plague. The other two aren't too bad.

[Venomlust]

Berzerkers on juggernauts comparable to Thunderwolf Cavalry. This is my only wish. It is unlikely to ever be granted.

[Path Walker]

I think the CSM Codex should cover the basics but be more focused on renegade chapters and post heresy Chaos Space Marines, rather than the Legions. The Legions are special cases that should get their own rules a la Daemonkin, which works very well.

Fluff wise, it should be established that, by the 41st millennium most Chaos Space Marine warbands wouldn't be anything like the Legions, either they've turned their back on legion doctrine to pursue their own thing, they've recruited to replace losses to the extent where its watered down or they're more recent renegades, so I they don't need to be specifically in there and are better looked at with unique detachments and formations with god specific rules to show how different they are, available separately, either in one massive "Legions of Chaos" book or as separate supplements.

Unit wise, I'd want to buff the average Chaos Space Marine, they tend to older because replacement is trickier and have been working without support from the wider imperium for tens, hundreds or in some cases thousands of years and so only the toughest of them would survive. Most have, through madness or necessity made pacts with the dark gods.

A line warrior of the Chaos Space Marines should be more than your average Space Marine. I'd make Chaos Tactical Squads the equivalent of Space Marine Sternguard but without the ammo options and an option of a CC weapon and Bolt Pistol.

This creates an interesting shift in play from regular Space Marines, where they're more elite but have the option of bringing tons of Cannon Fodder cultists along with them. On top of that you have the pacts with the Gods to given them even more advantages over your regular vanilla dudes.

I think Cultists work well how there are, especially when you take their Formation uses into account. They represent the rabble of human followers of chaos and with the right use can be very tricky to deal with. I'd bring back the demogorge (showing my age there) as an 1 per cult choice HQ unit, who boosts them in a similar way to a Dark Apostle, but less so and you would save an HQ slot.

Daemon engines are great, fluffy could do with a few points tweaks to bring them into line but otherwise they seem to be working as intended, obviously current trends are to allow 1-3 of most of those size units so add that in. Helbrutes could do with a another attack I think.

I think trying to make Chaos Space Marines "Space Marines but with MOAR" is not going to get anyone anywhere and is kind of reductive, I think they need to double down on what they started with making Chaos unique to play, which is why I've made my suggestions.

If i could go really extreme super wishlisty? I'd get rid of Obliterators from the CSM book, they're ugly and I always hated the idea, it doesn't really add much lore-wise, I'd maybe save them for a unique "cult" choice for the non-god aligned Legions in a Legion book. So, any renedage force can have Khorne Marked squads of Space Marines that are badass but only the World Eaters legion list gets berserkers, only the Emperors Children have noise marined. etc.
We all know the god aligned cults, but then Iron Warriors get Oblits (reluctantly because people have modesl for them and we wouldn't want to invalidate those ugly, ugly things), with Terror Squads for Night Lords, Alpha Legion would get a Power Armoured infiltration/sniping squad, Black Legion get super Chosen that buff nearby units when they fight (the traitors might hate the Black Legion, but seeming them at war will make anyone fight harder)

There needs to be an effort to bring Abaddon back to being one of the most potent threats out there too, the unifier, a formation with him where, uniquely for one Detachment, you could have loads of different cult squads all working together would be cool. When he was introduces in 2nd ed he was an utter, utter ******* and one of the scariest things in the game, you could easily believe this was the son of a primarch who could hold his own against the imperium, now that doesn't seem the case.

[Captain Bubonicus]

...You know what I wouldn't mind seeing?

Rules for Chaos war-band skirmish games, like we had in Slaves to Darkness/Lost and the Damned.

[grimmas]

Actually on second thoughts all my wishes have already come true in the FW HH series ( which I purchased at great expense, best I've ever spent on Wargaming though). Renegades and Dinobots all round then 🍻

[Cactus]

I wrote a much longer response and scrapped it because it basically boils down to this:

Here's what I want:
Formations that give free upgrades on weapons and/or free transports.
Infantry that can have a regular armor save and a way to stack FNP or cover saves.
Transports that can fly or deepstrike.
Fear, Fearless, or not knowing any fear.
Scout, outflank, infiltrating Troop choices.
Point costs more in line with the current Marine books.

These sort of things can be built with marks or "boons" like the old wargear/magic item cards from days of old. I guess my idea is that a Chaos god should be able to customize their followers for a specific task or function no matter if the want blood, disease, pleasure or secrets.

I'd remove:
Random chart rolls during each phase, like spawn. Just give them some rules a player can count on.

[Andrew Thomas]

I want the models to earn their price point, in terms of point value, honest-to goodness Chapter Tactics, and more choice-efficient vehicle units. To that end, Chosen, Thousand Sons, Mutilators, and Obliterators need to be reworked.

[AlexRae]

Make it a little bit broken. They deserve it after the penance of 3.5

[Path Walker]

I wrote a much longer response and scrapped it because it basically boils down to this:

Here's what I want:
Formations that give free upgrades on weapons and/or free transports.
Infantry that can have a regular armor save and a way to stack FNP or cover saves.
Transports that can fly or deepstrike.
Fear, Fearless, or not knowing any fear.
Scout, outflank, infiltrating Troop choices.
Point costs more in line with the current Marine books.

These sort of things can be built with marks or "boons" like the old wargear/magic item cards from days of old. I guess my idea is that a Chaos god should be able to customize their followers for a specific task or function no matter if the want blood, disease, pleasure or secrets.

I'd remove:
Random chart rolls during each phase, like spawn. Just give them some rules a player can count on.

So you just want them to be space marines with spikes. Why?

[Cutter]

So you just want them to be space marines with spikes. Why?

I think the clue is probably in the name, Chaos Space Marines...

[Path Walker]

I think the clue is probably in the name, Chaos Space Marines...

The important Chaos modifier conveniently missed in the hopes of an army being Space Marines just a bit better. That's not how things work. Fluff and cool models trump any desires of players wanting to win games more easily.

[Cutter]

The important Chaos modifier conveniently missed in the hopes of an army being Space Marines just a bit better. That's not how things work. Fluff and cool models trump any desires of players wanting to win games more easily.

Not missed, it's there in black and blue, I can see it.

No hope expressed as to whether the chaos elements makes them better or worse Space Marines.

Those apples are not this tamborine.

[Path Walker]

Just as long as they can at least do all the things Space Marines can just as well.

[Cutter]

If you insist.

Oh go on then.

Cos it's you.

Bless.

[WuhSawBe]

Updated plastic CSM. Seriously. The CSM in the vengeance set looked pretty slick, so something along those lines. As a World Eaters fan, updated zerkers' would nice!

[Mr Mystery]

Yup on both counts there.

[CrossbowSniper]

I'm hoping for something along these lines:

Chaos Space Marines: 60 points
Unit size: 5 space marines
Stats: (same as standard space marines)
May add up to 15 marines for: 13 points per model
One may be upgraded to a Veteran Sergeant for 10 points.
If the unit has a Veteran Sergeant, the unit may be upgraded to Veterans of the Long War for: 3 points per model
Equipment: boltgun, bolt pistol, close combat weapon, power armour, frag & krak grenades.
Special Rules: none

The Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may exchange his bolt pistol and/or close combat weapon for:
Lightning Claw 15pts
Power Weapon 15pts
Plasma Pistol 15pts
Powerfist 25pts

For every 5 models, one may exchange its bolter for:
Flamer 5pts
Meltagun 10pts
Plasmagun 15pts

For every 10 models, one may exchange its bolter for:
Heavy Bolter 5pts
Multi-Melta 10 pts
Missile Launcher 15pts
Add Flakk Missiles 10pts
Plasma Cannon 15pts
Reaver Autocannon 15pts
Lascannon 20pts

Veterans of the Long War: models with this rule add 1 to their attack characteristics and leadership (max 10) and gain Hated (Space Marines).

This way the models can be cheap due to no special rules (newer renegade factions), more powerful than regular space marines with upgrades (legion or just older surviving CSM), and given the marks, just silly in most aspects if battle, shooting or close combat. It allows for hordes (20 marines, all with pistol/ccw and bolter for only 260 with no upgrades), specialists, lots of shooty special weapons, and more! Add in some transport capabilities and you have a basic troop that's similar to Space Marines (which is their origin) but different enough in feel that it doesn't feel like 'Space Marines with weird allies.'

[Cactus]

The important Chaos modifier conveniently missed in the hopes of an army being Space Marines just a bit better. That's not how things work. Fluff and cool models trump any desires of players wanting to win games more easily.

Actually, Cutter has it right.

I think Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines along the lines of Blood Angels being Space Marines, and Space Wolves being Space Marines. Chaos is another flavor of Space Marines. Good guy, bad guy motif aside, they are at their core, Space Marines. Spawn, Chosen and Possessed are closer to the old Rogue Trader description of the followers of the path of ruin, but at their core, the CSM are just Space Marines who actually have benefits of their faith.

Along with the things I mentioned, they should still have the boons of being favored by a Chaos God and have access to Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, the half-daemon units like Chosen and Possesed, and a few more flavored mechanics (like Veterans of the Long War instead of TSHKNF.)

[CrossbowSniper]

another thought, if they wanted to make independent characters specialize in challenging, make them have a benefit in the challenge. And make the benefit befit that mark. Like, instead of a Mark costing 10-15 points for just a mark, make it instead like a 'Champion of (God)' with an added bonus.

Champion of Khorne: +15 points
Champion of Khorne has the Mark of Khorne. In addition, when this model is in a challenge, it gains an additional +1 attack for the duration of the challenge. (so, on the charge, in a challenge, with veterans of the long war [from my previous post] and 2 ccw, you're looking at 8 attacks[oh look, Khorne's number])

Champion of Slaanesh: +15 points
Champion of Slaanesh has the Mark of Slaanesh. In addition, when this model is in a challenge, it gains +1 to it's WS for the duration of the challenge. (because Slaanesh should have awesome duelists. A WS 7, I 6 independent character with armor ignoring weapon is scary for almost anyone [except whip wield tyrants])

Champion of Nurgle: +20 points
Champion of Nurgle has the Mark of Nurgle. In addition, when this model is in a challenge, it's weapons gain the Poison special rule for the duration of the challenge. (Because poison power weapons/lightning claws on a toughness 6 model is just fun)

Champion of Tzeentch: +15 points
Champion of Tzeentch has the Mark of Tzeentch. In addition, when this model is in a challenge, reduce the AP value of it's melee weapons by 1 for the duration of the challenge. (Make the Tzeentch boys scary in melee again. A sorcerer with an AP 2 Force Sword? Sure, why not)

And don't just put these on Chaos Lords, but Sorcerers and all the other IC HQ's (aside from the Daemon Prince, who gets his own stuff).

[Djbz]

Should also add all the effects of Cult Marines onto those ideas there Crossbow.
(Furious charge for Khorne/Feel no pain for Nurgle/Inferno bolts for Tzneetch)

Which reminds my why are noise marines completely lacking the extra special rule all the other cult marines get?

[CrossbowSniper]

Should also add all the effects of Cult Marines onto those ideas there Crossbow.
(Furious charge for Khorne/Feel no pain for Nurgle/Inferno bolts for Tzneetch)

Which reminds my why are noise marines completely lacking the extra special rule all the other cult marines get?

I thought about that afterwards and hadn't changed things appropriately, but I'm also wary of that. The khorne one i can see for 15pts, but the nurgle champion is already so strong, and a t6 model with fnp would easily boost it to ridiculous, especially with the ability to do that en masse. The tzeentch one is basically what you said, only with melee instead of shooting (for shooting I'd have to increase points cost).

As for noise marines, they get the ability to have sonic weapons. I'd be ok with the champion of slaanesh having a 15pts doom siren option.

[Webwolf]

I would like to see the Mark of Chaos Undivided returned to the codex. Also a choice to use Traitor Guardsmen in the codex, maybe even a Lost and the Damned army.

[Charistoph]

I would like to see the Mark of Chaos Undivided returned to the codex. Also a choice to use Traitor Guardsmen in the codex, maybe even a Lost and the Damned army.

Cultists almost fill the role of Traitor Guardsmen well. Allowing them to be Marked, have Special Weapons, and Heavy Weapon Teams would complete the design. The only downside with it is they would need Cultist HWT models to complete it, and that would mean one less kit for the woefully behind Chas Marine model list.

Does anyone else find it odd that 3 of the most iconic races of 40K tend to have some of the oldest models? Eldar Aspect Warriors need some love. Orks also need to be looked in to as well for some refreshing.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Chaos alien allies (and not chaotic versions of existing ones) not interested in chaos humans or daemons. Want to see the fallen xeno empires.