Terminator Sweeping Advances

[Sir Biscuit]

So, I know that a unit wearing terminator armor cannot perform a sweeping advance. My question is, can a unit that has an attached character in terminator armor perform a sweeping advance? For instance, if Lysander is attached to a unit of sternguard, and they win a close combat, can the sternguard attempt to sweeping advance even though Lysander can't?

Thanks for the help.

[Fellend]

Doesn't Lysander wear terminator armor?
But I think so, because when you go into assault IC's become IC's and can be independantly targeted so it would make sense that they can independantly chase

[SeattleDV8]

IC's are only treated separately until the attacks are resolved.
He remains a part of the unit.
If one member can not Sweeping Advance none of the members can.
Think of a Tac squad with a IC that fired a combi plasma.
Because the plasma is a rapid fire weapon, none of the squad could assault.

[Gnoblar with Pointy Stick]

IC's are only treated separately until the attacks are resolved.
He remains a part of the unit.
If one member can not Sweeping Advance none of the members can.
Think of a Tac squad with a IC that fired a combi plasma.
Because the plasma is a rapid fire weapon, none of the squad could assault.

This was my understanding as well.
Good thing too. Termies are terrifying.

[DarkLink]

1. You assault.
2. You roll attacks. At this point, the IC and squad count as 2 separate units.
3. You finish rolling all your attacks. The IC and squad join back together.
4. You win combat, the enemy flees. You cannot sweeping advance because your squad is slowed down by the terminator armor.

[Tynskel]

This was my understanding as well.
Good thing too. Termies are terrifying.

That's why I have a third of a company of Terminators :)

[Sir Biscuit]

Can anyone cite a rule for this? The only thing I can find is in the BRB, and while it says that some troops may not sweeping advance and that enemies always get away from them, it makes no mention of mixed units. I am failing to find anything that would indicate that the presence of terminator armor in a mixed unit would prevent the normal troopers from attempting a sweeping advance?

I also have another question about sweeping advances that is not entirely clear. How many units are allowed to attempt a sweeping advance? Say, for instance, that I have two tactical squads engaged with two guardsman squads. I win combat, and both guard squads fail their moral check. Do I make one sweeping advance roll, or two? Do I apply one to each unit, or do I apply each to both?

[Nabterayl]

Can anyone cite a rule for this? The only thing I can find is in the BRB, and while it says that some troops may not sweeping advance and that enemies always get away from them, it makes no mention of mixed units. I am failing to find anything that would indicate that the presence of terminator armor in a mixed unit would prevent the normal troopers from attempting a sweeping advance?
That's because there isn't anything. As I recall the SM codex, models in terminator armor may not make a Sweeping Advance, which doesn't answer the question. Nothing says that every model in the unit must be able to Sweep in order for the unit to do so. The situation isn't covered at all.


I also have another question about sweeping advances that is not entirely clear. How many units are allowed to attempt a sweeping advance? Say, for instance, that I have two tactical squads engaged with two guardsman squads. I win combat, and both guard squads fail their moral check. Do I make one sweeping advance roll, or two? Do I apply one to each unit, or do I apply each to both?
That I can answer - each unit gets to Sweep individually, just as each enemy unit gets to make a separate opposing Initiative check. As page 41 says, "any winning unit that is now free to make a sweeping advance rolls the dice and compares its total with the total of each of the falling back enemy units it was engaged with. Any that it equals or beats are destroyed."

[Sir Biscuit]

That's because there isn't anything. As I recall the SM codex, models in terminator armor may not make a Sweeping Advance, which doesn't answer the question. Nothing says that every model in the unit must be able to Sweep in order for the unit to do so. The situation isn't covered at all.
That's the problem I'm running in to. It actually came up in a game against space wolves, when a mixed unit of wolf guard beat some guard vets. I was just hoping to get a clear answer here. Guess we'll just house rule it. :P


That I can answer - each unit gets to Sweep individually, just as each enemy unit gets to make a separate opposing Initiative check. As page 41 says, "any winning unit that is now free to make a sweeping advance rolls the dice and compares its total with the total of each of the falling back enemy units it was engaged with. Any that it equals or beats are destroyed."
Quick follow up question. :) Does the "escaping" unit get a roll against each unit that is attempting to sweeping advance it, or just one roll that all "pursuing" units compare against?

[Nabterayl]

That's the problem I'm running in to. It actually came up in a game against space wolves, when a mixed unit of wolf guard beat some guard vets. I was just hoping to get a clear answer here. Guess we'll just house rule it. :P
For what it's worth, my house rule answer would be that a mixed unit can still sweep, but you don't get to count the Initiative of any models in terminator armor when determining the majority/highest Initiative. I just can't see the enemy breaking in assault and Lysander yelling to the sternguard around him, "Don't pursue them, men! Wait for me!" And I certainly can't see some terminator-armored wolf guard saying that to their power-armored brethren.


Quick follow up question. :) Does the "escaping" unit get a roll against each unit that is attempting to sweeping advance it, or just one roll that all "pursuing" units compare against?
One roll that everybody else compares to. Example: two mobs of orks, A and B, are in combat with two units of space marines, C and D. The space marines win the combat and both units of orks fail their Leadership test. A, B, C, and D each make one Initiative roll each, with modified final results as follows:
Mob A rolls an 8.
Mob B rolls a 6.
Squad C rolls a 5.
Squad D rolls a 7.
Mob A escapes, because its roll beats every pursuing roll. Mob B is destroyed, because even though it escapes Squad C, it does not escape Squad D.

[Sir Biscuit]

My interpretation is the same.
Thanks for the help!
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/9043/acookieforyoujpg.jpg
You're the best! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qae_TUTeGo)

[DarkLink]

And I certainly can't see some terminator-armored wolf guard saying that to their power-armored brethren.


And even if they did say it, I couldn't see them listening.

[david5th]

Main WH40K rulebook pg 48 -
" Unless specified in the rule ( as in the 'stubborn' special rule ), the unit's special rule is not conferred upon the character, and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

However

Main WH40K rulebook pg 49 -

" Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined ( from determining assault results onwards ).

Main WH40K rulebook pg 48 -
" While an IC is part of a unit, they must obey the coherecy rules. The combined unit moves and assualts at the speed of the slowest model while they saty together. "

If a IC was to Sweep advance and then consolidate, they might break the coherecy rules. I was always of the inclination a that once a IC was part of unit they were until it was either destroyed or chose to leave when possible.

[SombreBrotherhood]

Codex: Space Marines - P. 102 uner Terminator Armour, 3rd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Codex: Space Wolves - P. 61, under Terminator Armour, 2nd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Main Rulebook - P. 11, "All models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest unit"

Main Rulebook - P. 40, under disallowed sweeping advances, 2nd paragraph - "Som troops, as detailed in their entries, are not allowed to make a sweeping advance - in such cases the enemy always manage to disengage safely."

Taking all four of those together, I'd say that any unit containing a model in Terminator Armor slows down the rest of the group enough for their foes to get away.

But you know what's silly? Terminator-like armor wearing Obliterators, who are S&P, CAN sweeping advance. Go figure, huh?

[Nabterayl]

SomebreBrotherhood - I follow your line of thinking, but here's why I don't think what you've cited is conclusive:

Codex: Space Marines - P. 102 uner Terminator Armour, 3rd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Codex: Space Wolves - P. 61, under Terminator Armour, 2nd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"
True enough, and clear so far. Nothing is said yet about units with a mix of suits.


Main Rulebook - P. 11, "All models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest unit"
Also clear, but a sweeping advance is not movement. Consolidation is movement, but a sweeping advance happens before, and is not tied to, the consolidate move. In fact, it's entirely permissible for a victorious unit to sweep a losing one and not move at all.

I see what you're getting at, and I think it's entirely reasonable to conclude that what the rules are trying to say, in their fumbling kind of way, is that a terminator slows down the rest of his unit enough that the entire unit is disallowed a sweeping advance. I hope you'll agree with me, though, that this is one of those rules areas where there is no conclusive proof to be had.

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ Nabertayl - Yes. I certainly do acknowledge the lack of a direct interperetation (and am pleased at the high level of civility in this thread!) and that the rules we have don't lend themselves to direct, hard-and-fast conclusions.

What I have thought about, in a related thought experiment, is the strangeness not only of the situation presented, but how it gets even more strange when turned in other ways, so please bear with me when I say it seems, SEEMS, mind you, contravening that: 1) a single Terminator armored model doesn't prevent a sweeping advance by Power Armored friends AND 2) that a squad of Terminators is ALLOWED a sweeping advance by the addition of a single Power Armor model when before they were simply SOL.

When I'm struck in such a way by a situation, I default to a more restrictive interpretation of the rules, perhaps to control abuse or to keep my grey matter firmly inside my skull. As it is, I'm awestruck at the number of rules questions I didn't know I had until somebody gets in a random situation that makes them say 'hmm?'

[SeattleDV8]

While I'll agree that it isn't spelled out, there are many places in the rules where the action or lack of rules for one member of a unit would disallow the unit from an action or use of a rule.
For example , an IC without scout, fleet or infiltrate would stop the use of the rules for the unit.
One member of a unit moving would disallow a heavy weapon from being fired (IC's joining or leaving excepted)
One member firing a heavy or rapid fire weapon would stop the unit from assaulting.
I'm not sure if i'm remembering correctly but it seems that this was disallowed speficity in past editions.
Generally the entire unit must have (or follow ) a rule in order to use it.
The one member with Terminator armour stops the unit from Sweeping Advance.

[The Mystic]

Codex: Space Marines - P. 102 uner Terminator Armour, 3rd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"

Codex: Space Wolves - P. 61, under Terminator Armour, 2nd paragraph, last sentence - "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance"


You raise a very interesting point here.

When does an IC in terminator armour become defined as a "Terminator"?

If you compare these quotes, which are also the same as in the DA's codex, to what is listed in the entry for Terminator armour in C:CSM:

"....models in Terminator armour may not Sweeping Advance after assaults."

From a RAW standpoint we find our answer.

For C:SM, C:SW and C: DA, IC's wearing terminator armour are never defined as "Terminators" in anyway and therefore would be able to Sweeping Advance.

Unfortunatly this would also count for any model that can take Terminator armour as wargear within these 3 codeci.

Wolfguard in Terminator armour just got abit nastier. ;)

[lobster-overlord]

Here's something to consider, that goes back to mixed unit. Majority rule.

Like with Neos in Tac squads for BT, or Wolf Guard in SW units. They used to use majority saves (i know that new allocation ignores this)

but as a happy medium, when house ruling it, perhaps thinking in terms of units if they are majority terminator, they don't, and when the Termies are in minority, the unit can.

I'm personally of the interpretation that a unit with even one cannot SA though.

John M>

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ The Mystic: That was lazy typing on my part. Where those rules read "Terminator" pls insert "models in Terminator Armor"

@ lobster: I'd be fine with the majority rule situation if/when it came up in a game. I just dislike that we (the players on site) have to come up with something like that agreement in the first place, and that there exist these random holes in the ruleset. For the record, I'd come down on your side, too. The presence of any model in Terminator armor should preclude a sweeping advance - there are downsides to that nice 2+.

[Fellend]

I'm going to go with if the Doom can target through vehicles because of the unit/model issue then terminators with an IC (without terminator armor obviously) can sweep.

[The Mystic]

@ The Mystic: That was lazy typing on my part. Where those rules read "Terminator" pls insert "models in Terminator Armor".

Actually you have quoted the rule 100% correctly except for C:SW which does indeed state"models in Terminator armour". C: DA and C:SM however only state "Terminator" so the question would still stand.

[Denzark]

M'lord Biscuit you have asked some pretty damned cheesey questions recently were you to come round our ways with your sorcerous words and sad devotion to an ancient religion I don't think you would conjure up the plans and we would slap you with a big mouth billy bass.