Codex Discussion

[Odog]

Hey, I am new to this forum. I want to know what people's opinions are on the best/worst codex or army. I have discussed this with friends and it seems that people have different perspecitves on the matter.

So to my question:

Which 3 armies do you think are the toughest to fight overall? To clarify, try to be as objective as possible and look at it from a global point of view instead of thinking about what armies are better up against your own army.

And

Which 3 armies do you think have the hardest time winning? To clarify, what armies do you consider are hard make all comers lists for?

Remember that everyones opinions are a little different. I think its great to defend your best/ worst armies, but lets not get into a huge dispute or anything.

My 3 best armies are in no particular order:
Imperial Gaurd
Eldar
Space Wolves

My 3 worst armies are in no particular order:
Necrons
Grey Knights
Dark Angels

Please, I want to hear everyones opinion, you don't have to agree with me.

Thanks

[Vepr]

Hey, I am new to this forum. I want to know what people's opinions are on the best/worst codex or army. I have discussed this with friends and it seems that people have different perspecitves on the matter.

So to my question:

Which 3 armies do you think are the toughest to fight overall? To clarify, try to be as objective as possible and look at it from a global point of view instead of thinking about what armies are better up against your own army.

And

Which 3 armies do you think have the hardest time winning? To clarify, what armies do you consider are hard make all comers lists for?

Remember that everyones opinions are a little different. I think its great to defend your best/ worst armies, but lets not get into a huge dispute or anything.

My 3 best armies are in no particular order:
Imperial Gaurd
Eldar
Space Wolves

My 3 worst armies are in no particular order:
Necrons
Grey Knights
Dark Angels

Please, I want to hear everyones opinion, you don't have to agree with me.

Thanks

I guess I would be similar but I would trade Eldar for CSM and Grey Knights for Tau.

[Melissia]

Any army I use is the toughest army.

[pgarfunkle]

To be honest I haven't played a varied enough selection of armies to say what I think is the hardest. Annoyingly the only times I've really had a chance to face off against more varied armies is during large scale apocalypse games my local store has run which makes it difficult to determine.

[Gnoblar with Pointy Stick]

I'll vote for Space Wolves, 'Nilla marines and a good Eldar player as the hardest to kill (for me).
Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tyranids seem to suffer pretty badly every time a fight them.

[DarkLink]

My 3 best armies are in no particular order:
Imperial Gaurd
Eldar
Space Wolves

My 3 worst armies are in no particular order:
Necrons
Grey Knights
Dark Angels

Please, I want to hear everyones opinion, you don't have to agree with me.

Thanks

While Dark Angels are weaker than standard Space Marines, they don't compare to the utter lack of cheese in the Necron and Grey Knight codices. In fact, Necrons and Daemonhunters stand head and shoulders above everyone else in the game up on the loser's platform.


On the other hand, the "best codex" is much iffier. Every one of the new 5th ed codices has some highly competitive lists. Most of the old codices do as well. And even a "non-competitive" list can win handily in the hands of a skilled player.

GK's and Necrons are so bad because of severe gaps in unit choices. Grey Knights lack quality "filler" units and anti-tank stuff, while Necrons lack anti tank, templates and close combat ability, as well as transports.

Every other codex (yes, even Dark Angels, though they don't do it as well as vanilla Marines), has units to fulfill every roll required in a take-all-comers, competitive list. Once you have a list that has some way of dealing with pretty much any threat, it comes down to skill as much as anything else.

I'll note that some codices have gaps in certain areas (for example, orks lack anti-tank outside of CC and lootas), but they have such strengths in other areas that they can get around those weaknesses.

[Melissia]

My Sisters lists are quite powerful if they get the first turn (top tier easily), and no pushovers (middle tier) if they don't. I just hope they retain that in their fifth edition dex.

[RocketRollRebel]

Hmmm. While I think any Codex can still win, I'll bite and list my top and bottom 3...

Top 3 (no particular order)
-Imperial Guard
-Orks
-Chaos Space Marines

Sad give 'em a hug bottom 3
-Tau
-Demon Hunters
-Witch Hunters (sorry Mellisa. Expensive Rhinos and other factors just kill them for me).

Not saying that these armys always win or always lose but I'd say that in a strictly no comp, balls out tourny setting they have the best chance at either dominating everyone or have the biggest uphill battle ahead of them.

[Sir Biscuit]

Top three:
Space Marines: Sure, they don't have any broken combos. Sure, they don't have any "uber" tricks. But marines still maintain something that many other armies lack: flexibility. As we go deeper and deeper into 5th, and more and more crazy stuff keeps appearing, 'nilla marines can still counter and stay competitive.
Imperial Guard: Obviously in everyone's top three. They can maim you with a single round of lucky shooting, and against a good player even dedicated counter lists struggle. Their only glaring weakness is their relative inflexibility... one guard list plays much like another.
Orks: People like to say they aren't good. People keep losing too them. While I don't personally think they're the best codex, they are undeniably cost-effective and very killy.

Bottom Three:
Necrons: Just awful. I've won games against them just by rolling up in a land raider. They need a new codex more than anyone.
Tau: I know there are people out there who swear they're still good, but come on... they only win consistently if they are in very favorable conditions. (battlefield, scenario, etc.)
Witch Hunters (SoB): People keep telling me they're great, I keep failing to see how. I've seen plenty of "good" sister players and the list just doesn't really impress me. There are armies that shoot better and there are armies that rush better. Not to mention that this codex really suffers from "monobuild". Some variety in forces would be nice.

[Colonel Pryde]

Hardest:
IG: fielding 3 russes with 14 front in a standard 1500 can be a handful to deal with. (Especially if you have problems with the dice) Then there are those orders and cheap valks.
SM: 3+ invulnerable for a stinkin storm shield, you've go to be kidding me. A lascannon would carve right through that thing! (For other reasons too)


Easiest:
Necrons: can go either way, 5th ed nerfed them a little. Phase out rule can be a problem if your opponent pays attention (battlecannons rape them big time)
Black Templars: Depends which army you fight them with, no devastators, no whirwinds, this results in lack of ranged fire. Sure, they're strong in close combat, but gun them down and they are not much a threat.

[fuzzbuket]

this thread is rater silly :P

DE can win games and whilst not the most cheesy thing ever can still win
DH are still good in normal games allied/pure and shine in planetstrike and because of allies can always be viable (e.g. BA(Pdf) termi libby+GM+retinue if a serious threat with firepower and is a monster in combat!)
Da are still good at the deathwing (which is equaly powerful as the SWing) and the speeder/jetbike is still good!
necrons are whilst lacking anyone wh has played 2+ monoliths and a nightbringer knows that they can be killy!!
(destroyers are also powerful)
Wh is still good in the meltaspm/exrocist category!

_fuzz

[Melissia]

No, Sir Biscuit, there is no army that shoots better at short range than the Sisters. And Sisters can assault pretty damned well, too, if done right.

[Odog]

@ Fuzzbucket: I don't deny that any army can win on any given day, but If I were in a tournament round 3, there are armies that I would rather face than others. Sometimes because of my own army, but mostly because some armies more than others, when used right, can be very difficult to fight.

For example, Lets say you have the choice to face two different armies, each with good generals at the helm, what would you rather face: Mech Eldar or Sisters of Battle.

I'm not saying sisters are slouches as they arent even close to my bottom 3, but comparitively, with the same genralship, I would face sisters in a heart beat over mech eldar.

So do you understand why I am curious as to what people think?

[Melissia]

I'm not saying sisters are slouches as they arent even close to my bottom 3, but comparitively, with the same genralship, I would face sisters in a heart beat over mech eldar.
The only army I'd rather not face (speaking from the perspective of using my Sisters of Battle) is an Imperial Guard army with craptons of AP3 pieplates (Specifically lots of arty or tanks) and lots of autocannons, but even then that army would actually be somewhat weak because of its lack of troops in order to get the right amount of AP3 to make me uncomfortable. Basically they'd have to specifically tailor their list to fight mine, which would really suck for them if I brought my Horde Orks instead :P

Basically, my lists can take on anyone with equal footing... it's a matter more of execution than list building in the end, for Sisters. There's a lot of really bad lists, and a few really great lists. And if you have one of the great lists you just need to use them properly and you can keep up with the newer codices.

[Col.Gravis]

I'd have to agree with Melissia, in an alpha strike situation Mech Sisters are probably able to unleash the nastiest short range firepower (within 12"), especially with the appropriate use of Faith, they do have to get there though and theres no doubt that Mech Eldar are able to do that better, even if they can't do as much damage.

That said I would sooner face Sisters, but that purely because Fortuned, Holofielded, Skimmers annoy the crap out of me.

BTW Melissia, I'd add Daemons with plentiful second strike units of Flamers of Tzeetch to the 'I don't wanna see when I'm playing Sisters list' personally, I've always found that far more painful then Guard.

[Melissia]

Flamers of Tzeentch are quite expensive for a single wound model with t4, and they only effectively have a strength of 3 against Sisters, not exactly as deadly in my mind as a huge S8+ AP3 pieplate supported by rhino-popping autocannons. Just six flamers are more expensive than the average Sisters squads including the transport, and yet far less survivable. They they deep strike, but they'd still have to pop the rhinos first, and most things in the Daemons codex that can pop vehicles do it in assault... and if my Sisters are given turns to kill stuff (because deep strike isn't that reliable), they will kill lots and lots of stuff, even Daemons.

[DarkLink]

I've usually seen them taken in squads of three, as suicide units. They tend to drop in, kill a TON of stuff for their points, then die quickly. Sure, sometimes they whiff, but three flamer templates that ignore armor will wipe out an MEQ squad in a single shooting phase reliably, all for a hundred points.

Now, if there aren't any popped transports around when they drop in, they usually die before doing anything due to a lack of suitable targets.

[RogueGarou]

I prefer Flamers in squads of 4-5. I started with squads of 7 because I had seven models and then found seven more on consignment at a game shop. 7 was really too many in a squad, though, most of the time. They are typically a suicide squad for sure. The enemy has a choice. I normally inflict some pretty heavy damage on any infantry in the open. If the opponent ignores them after that, or just doesn't try to eliminate them, then they will jump out of the way and harass elements of the enemy force. If they concentrate on destroying this immediate threat, they certainly will kill it but at the cost of directing less attention on the other units in my first wave. In short, in my local gaming group, I drop a nice, juicy bait target for them and present it in a way that they are inclined to take the bait and utterly destroy those squads. This buys a turn for my other units to move unmolested. So far, the local folks have taken the bait all but one time. They then regret the other units getting several inches closer to cover or assault range. The one time the guy did not take the bait, he should have since he was playing Guard and had some big infantry blobs. The only time my Flamers have survived the return fire from my enemy, the remaining couple of Flamers were able to move around and pick off parts of his Terminator and Assault Marine formations.

I really feel that on any given day, any army can beat any other army. If luck favors one player over another or if one player just plays a better game then it will not matter so much what Codex they are using. For example, I have never used a Lash Chaos Marine list and my Chaos Marines have done just fine.

If I were to pick favorite Codicii, it would be for the armies I play: Chaos Maines and Daemons, IG, Grey Knights and Sisters.

Least favorites would be the Tau, due to some wonky rules and costs that need to be updated, Necrons, because of similar things and because the only Necron player our area has left has not done anything with his army to impress, and whatever the flavor of the week happens to be. I don't like the bandwagon approach to playing. The guy who has played Blood Angels or Space Wolves for years, even when the Codex was showing its age, is someone I would rather play than someone who just plays his Marines as counts as whatever new Marine Codex has just come out.

I do think the Tyrannid Codex may have gotten a bit overzealous with the nerfhammer but I do think it is still a viable new Codex. I have yet to see any Nids with the new Codex since we only had one Nid player in our area and he moved away a couple of years ago. It may turn out that I am completely wrong and the Nids got smacked down much harder than it looks by skimming through the Codex. Opinions from people who play with or against them more regularly seem to vary wildly.

That is all just my 2 cents and is based on playing in my local area. Plus, I am not a tourney player so I try to build fun lists. If Orks were still as random and chaotic as they were in 2E, I'd be playing them now. Hop Splats and random destruction were more fun to me than moving 20 Boyz and rolling 100 dice for that mob.

[fuzzbuket]

I
If I were to pick favorite Codicii, it would be for the armies I play: Chaos Maines and Daemons, IG, Grey Knights and Sisters.

yeah even though I (tommorow but have already thumbed through the ba and Sm)have a 3rded,4rth ed, and 5th ed like the Dh codex the best

nice flavorsome units without SC
a section on WHY your dh would fight sm/gaurd/crons/ect/ect
2 missions
easy how-to-paint sectoin
conversion section (shock horror mordehim as mystics :eek:)
a story about 1 of the SC
and each unit has a nice half page of fluff


my fave dex' :)