Deep Striking on top of buildings

[Lord Inquisitor]

Can anyone deep strike on top of buildings? Please read over the rules for buildings, ruins, and deep striking before answering to this thread. The exact reasoning for this thread is because in a game a squad of stormboys(jump infantry) deep struck on top of a building and I stated that if they scatter off the building they have to roll on the chart. My opponent denied that but it didn't happen. I want to know for sure though.

I have been arguing with my friend over this a lot and here is my side. I started out believing you would roll on the chart because of how templates and blasts interact with multiple levels. I then realized that according to the deep strike rules it that buildings are always counted as impassable terrain. To this you may say woah your wrong there because under buildings it states that there is such thing as Impassable Buildings, were you have to designate a building impassable. This is different though because an Impassable Building merely means that you cannot enter it. Models may not be put on the roof of buildings unless they are in the building, per the Parapets and Battlements paragraph, unless they are jump infantry, jetbikes, or a skimmer, per Impassable Buildings. It then says in the deep strike mishap paragraph that if a unit cannot be deployed because it would land in impassable terrain it must roll on the chart.

Under deep striking it also states that a unit that deep strikes into ruins must be placed on the ground floor.

So if your still with me my questions are- Can a unit deep strike on top of a building? What happens to a unit that deep strikes and then scatters off of a building, or onto it for that matter?

[Nabterayl]

There is nothing about being a Building that inherently disadvantages Deep Strike. Remember that Buildings are terrain (c.f., e.g., "This category includes all those intact buildings in which players cannot physically place their models, because they are solid pieces of terrain," p. 77). As terrain, the [i]default rule is that if a model can stand on it, a model can stand on it.

An Impassable Building is simply impassable terrain, which jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers can treat as Dangerous Terrain just like any other impassable terrain per pages 52, 53, and 71. Page 78 is simply reminding the reader of that fact.

Strictly speaking, a parapet is not actually a place that models go. "Being on the parapet" is an abstract quality that models can have, and any model that has that quality can fire from the Building (p. 80). The model's physical location on the parapet is irrelevant. There is nothing in the rules that requires models on a parapet to be physically placed on the parapet, so it is theoretically possible for jump infantry, jetbikes, or skimmers to end their move over an occupied parapet.

In other words, as page 77 admonishes us, you really need to decide up front how your Buildings are going to be treated. Here are the default answers, though:
Any model that can physically stand on top of a Building can do so as if it were clear terrain, unless the Building is an Impassable Building.
Any jump infantry, jetbike, or skimmer model that can physically stand on top of an Impassable Building may do so, treating it as Dangerous Terrain.
Parapets need not be physically occupied.
As a consequence of 1, any model may Deep Strike onto the top of a Building with no adverse consequences.
As a consequence of 2, any model may Deep Strike onto the top of an Impassable Building, treating it as Deep Striking into Dangerous Terrain.
As a consequence of 3, and subject to 4 and 5, any model may Deep Strike onto the top of a Building with an occupied parapet with no adverse consequences.

What that really means is, here are three questions every game with Buildings should have straight beforehand:
Is this Building just a Building, or is it also an Impassable Building?
Does this Building have a parapet?
What is our house rule on occupied parapets?

[Lord Inquisitor]

There is nothing about being a Building that inherently disadvantages Deep Strike. Remember that Buildings are terrain (c.f., e.g., "This category includes all those intact buildings in which players cannot physically place their models, because they are solid pieces of terrain," p. 77). As terrain, the default rule is that if a model can stand on it, a model can stand on it.

In the deep strike rules it specifically states that buildings count as impassable terrain as normal.


Strictly speaking, a parapet is not actually a place that models go. "Being on the parapet" is an abstract quality that models can have, and any model that has that quality can fire from the Building (p. 80). The model's physical location on the parapet is irrelevant. There is nothing in the rules that requires models on a parapet to be physically placed on the parapet, so it is theoretically possible for jump infantry, jetbikes, or skimmers to end their move over an occupied parapet.

Under Parapets and Battlements it states that models must be placed on the parapet to fire in addition to the ones firing from firing points.


In other words, as page 77 admonishes us, you really need to decide up front how your Buildings are going to be treated. Here are the default answers, though:
Any model that can physically stand on top of a Building can do so as if it were clear terrain, unless the Building is an Impassable Building.
Any jump infantry, jetbike, or skimmer model that can physically stand on top of an Impassable Building may do so, treating it as Dangerous Terrain.
Parapets need not be physically occupied.
As a consequence of 1, any model may Deep Strike onto the top of a Building with no adverse consequences.
As a consequence of 2, any model may Deep Strike onto the top of an Impassable Building, treating it as Deep Striking into Dangerous Terrain.
As a consequence of 3, and subject to 4 and 5, any model may Deep Strike onto the top of a Building with an occupied parapet with no adverse consequences.

1.On page 77 it deems buildings "Impassable Buildings" only if models cannot enter it. It never says anything about if they can be placed on it.
3.And only jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers may be on top of buildings as long as there is no enemy within it, per page 78 and 79.
5.Regular infantry can monsterous creatures may never deep strike on top of an Impassable building.


You also did not answer my question to what happens when a deep striker scatters of a building if it is possible for them to do so. To truly understand buildings you have to understand the rules for buildings, ruins, and deep striking.

[Nabterayl]

In the deep strike rules it specifically states that buildings count as impassable terrain as normal.
It says "as normal," true, but it's not clear at all what that means. The statement is "They may not deep strike directly inside a transport vehicle or a building, which will count as impassable terrain as normal." There are a couple of problems with this sentence:
For our purposes, nobody is talking about Deep Striking into a building.
Why would buildings "normally" be impassable terrain?
For that matter, why would vehicles "normally" be impassable terrain?
What's your read of these issues?


Under Parapets and Battlements it states that models must be placed on the parapet to fire in addition to the ones firing from firing points.
Mmmmm, fair enough. I have Planetstrike quibbles with that, but restricting ourselves to the main rulebook, I agree with you.


1.On page 77 it deems buildings "Impassable Buildings" only if models cannot enter it. It never says anything about if they can be placed on it.
Page 77 says that buildings that "look impossible for models to enter" or "that it makes no earthly sense for models to enter" "can be deemed impassable terrain." Jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers may be placed on top of impassable terrain per pages 52, 53, and 71 ("[Jump infantry/jetbikes/skimmers] can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it si actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain").

3.And only jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers may be on top of buildings as long as there is no enemy within it, per page 78 and 79.
Can you quote me that?

5.Regular infantry can monsterous creatures may never deep strike on top of an Impassable building.
If by "may never" you mean "may at any time, with the normal consequences for Deep Striking into Dangerous Terrain," I agree with you.


You also did not answer my question to what happens when a deep striker scatters of a building if it is possible for them to do so. To truly understand buildings you have to understand the rules for buildings, ruins, and deep striking.
Where you aim to Deep Strike is irrelevant for mishap purposes. For mishap purposes, all you need to know is where you end up. Some rules, such as a drop pod's Inertial Guidance System, may care whether you scattered onto an obstacle or deliberately tried to land on an obstacle. We've already had a number of threads about that in the drop pod and mycetic spore context, though, so let's not go into it until we're settled on the base case.

[Lord Inquisitor]

It says "as normal," true, but it's not clear at all what that means. The statement is "They may not deep strike directly inside a transport vehicle or a building, which will count as impassable terrain as normal." There are a couple of problems with this sentence:
For our purposes, nobody is talking about Deep Striking into a building.
Why would buildings "normally" be impassable terrain?
For that matter, why would vehicles "normally" be impassable terrain?
What's your read of these issues?

I can agree that this is confusing. I take this to say you can not walk on vehicles like you can't walk on tanks.


Page 77 says that buildings that "look impossible for models to enter" or "that it makes no earthly sense for models to enter" "can be deemed impassable terrain." Jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers may be placed on top of impassable terrain per pages 52, 53, and 71 ("[Jump infantry/jetbikes/skimmers] can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it si actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain").

From this and other places I view buildings as such.
1. Buildings are impassable, per deep strike rules and that the only examples of regular infantry being on a building is described in the Parapet and Battlements rules.
2. An Impassable Building may not be entered, and is impassable as normal.


Can you quote me that?

Pg. 79 Occupying Buildings-"Models entering a building are removed from the table...Units of jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers cannot land on a building that is occupied by enemy units."


If by "may never" you mean "may at any time, with the normal consequences for Deep Striking into Dangerous Terrain," I agree with you.

I mean that they will roll on the table as per the deep strike mishap paragraph.


Where you aim to Deep Strike is irrelevant for mishap purposes. For mishap purposes, all you need to know is where you end up. Some rules, such as a drop pod's Inertial Guidance System, may care whether you scattered onto an obstacle or deliberately tried to land on an obstacle. We've already had a number of threads about that in the drop pod and mycetic spore context, though, so let's not go into it until we're settled on the base case.

The problem I have with this is that to move between levels it takes 3", unless you are jump infantry, and also when you use templates and blasts they only work on one level.

I hope I'm not coming across to combative because I feel I have before, its just a very complicated and convoluted problem.

So just to reiterate. Are buildings always impassable? What happens when you deep strike off a building?

[Nabterayl]

I can agree that this is confusing. I take this to say you can not walk on vehicles like you can't walk on tanks.
I definitely agree it says that much. I'm not sure it's saying that buildings always count as impassable terrain for purposes of Deep Striking, but I think that's the most likely meaning. Does anybody else have a view on what to do with this sentence?



From this and other places I view buildings as such.
1. Buildings are impassable, per deep strike rules and that the only examples of regular infantry being on a building is described in the Parapet and Battlements rules.
Regular infantry that is "on" a parapet isn't really "on" the building, though. The models may have to be on the parapet, as you've pointed out, but the technical status of models on a parapet is "inside the building, but on the parapet."


Pg. 79 Occupying Buildings-"Models entering a building are removed from the table...Units of jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers cannot land on a building that is occupied by enemy units."
Thanks for this. I totally missed that.



The problem I have with this is that to move between levels it takes 3", unless you are jump infantry, and also when you use templates and blasts they only work on one level.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It's plain that you cannot attempt to Deep Strike into a building, even an empty one. Hence, the only question is whether you can Deep Strike onto a building.


So just to reiterate. Are buildings always impassable? What happens when you deep strike of a building?
Armed with your helpful seeing of what I could not see, let me try to sum it up like this:
Buildings are, first and foremost, terrain. If you can get to the top of a building, you can stand on it, just like you can stand on any other piece of terrain you can get to that doesn't have a specific rule saying you can't stand on it. The top of a building is not any different than the top of a plateau or table mesa.
Impassable buildings are, first and foremost, impassable terrain. The top of an impassable building is not any different than the top of any other impassable terrain.
The top of an occupied building is hyper-impassable terrain. Nothing, not even jump infantry, jetbikes, or skimmers, can stand on top of an occupied building.
No unit can Deep Strike into a building.

With those facts in mind, we can say the following:
Any unit that can reach the top of a normal unoccupied building may treat it as clear terrain. Many units may not be able to reach the top, but any unit that can somehow reach the top can treat it as clear. For instance, infantry might not be able to climb to the top of the building, but if it was transported to the top by a skimmer transport it could stand there just as if it was clear terrain.
Just like all other impassable terrain, nobody is allowed to stand on top of an impassable building except for jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers, for whom it counts as Dangerous Terrain.
Deep Striking units may only ever end up Deep Striking onto buildings. If you aim to Deep Strike onto the ground and scatter carries you over a building, you Deep Strike onto that building, not into.
If you aim to Deep Strike onto a building and scatter carries you off the building and onto the ground, you Deep Strike onto the ground.
Any unit may Deep Strike onto an unoccupied regular building with no consequences (although depending on the unit, they may not have a way of getting down from the building). This is no different than Deep Striking onto the top of a clear plateau.
Any unit may Deep Strike onto an unoccupied impassable building, but if they end up on the impassable building, they will mishap. This is no different than Deep Striking onto any other impassable terrain.
Any unit Deep Striking onto an occupied building is a case the rules do not cover. Technically, an occupied building is not impassable terrain (if it were, jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers could land on it). It's something even more impassable than impassable terrain. Consequently, while there are no rules, it seems reasonable to say that units Deep Striking onto an occupied building mishap.

[XHound87]

To answer your question, "Are buildings always impassible," just as was mentioned on pg 77, it seems to imply that the players must decide that beforehand how they want to treat that.

For your second question, if it scatters off a building, it does just that, and you do your normal deep strike thing. This is something that comes up on a fair basis in my location, and our rule was that if you can land something up there, and it's neither occupied or the building itself isn't accessable from the roof, then the "impassable" building doesn't count for deep stirke mishaps, because maybe the roof of the structure is a solid surface. We usually treat the roof as open terrain that can only be accessed by someone jumping/teleporting/etc. to get up there, and we treat it as if it were a separate entity. Now this only applies if the building in question has a roof that isn't a parapet, but is otherwise inaccessable from the ground or inside the building.

If it scatters onto a building then it depends on how it interacts with the aforementioned rule. Let's say my stormboys deep strike scatter onto an Imperial Bastion. I would need to roll mishap, as obviously I can't deepstrike and occupy a building.
But lets say it's a command facility of some kind with a flat roof, and you and your opponent have agreed that the roof isn't accessable from the ground or building, and there's no parapets or anything of the sort. Then you could land on top of it (besides, it makes for some interesting storytelling too).

The biggest thing to remember is to discuss what can and can't happen with your opponent. If you don't do that, then you're setting yourself up for trouble. Since the rules aren't entirely clear, it's up to the players to be creative.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Regular infantry that is "on" a parapet isn't really "on" the building, though. The models may have to be on the parapet, as you've pointed out, but the technical status of models on a parapet is "inside the building, but on the parapet."

I'm still of the opinion that buildings are impassable. The only place that the rule book says that infantry can be on top of a building is in the Parapet rules. If you have the big rule book there is a picture of an ork building that shows what a parapet is. And you do have to put models on the parapet to get to shoot extra shots, this then has an effect on the building due by adding plus 1 to the damage roll. This changes the technical status of both the unit and building, Infantry can all shoot and Building gets +1 on damage roll.

[XHound87]

1. You're referencing parts of the building rules that don't have anything to do with the deep strike bit. Let's keep it simple and to the rules question at hand.

2. That is true, the ork building that they show is a great example of what a parapet is. In that example, the entire roof of the building is counted as the parapet. But, what if there was a building that had a parapet on the sides (edit: which I suppose would be more a balcony than a true parapet), and the roof was basically flat, and didn't count as such. If it was occupied, no question, but if not, why could you not land units on there, if you'd discussed it beforehand?

Again, I repeat, talk with your opponent before the game to discuss these sorts of things. That's the best way of resolving any potential problems. The way I see it, and have experienced it, is that the rules are quite concrete in most areas for this. In the ways it's not, such as what happened to you, then ya gotta talk it out. The hard and fast house rule my community has is if it would conceivably make sense for something to be able to be up there, barring any other solid rules, then the move is fine, etc. We haven't had any argument since, considering this happens quite often for us.

[DarkLink]

I don't think GW is thorough enough in their rules to answer this question, really.

[Snyderson]

"If the building seems to be fit for a deepstrike (e.g. sky shield), well, go ahead, deep strike. If it seems not to be fit for a deepstrike (e.g. bastion top for a group of models), don't.
If you start arguing, roll a dice." That's the most likely GW answer you would get in an FAQ.

The whole issue is subjective, you won't get a general objective answer on it and definitely no strict rule.

Greetz,
Sny

[pgarfunkle]

After reading through the posts I agree with Nab's position.

Basically, if a model can sit on the building it is possible to deep strike there, whether the models need to take a dangerous terrain test is up to whether you and you're opponent has decided the building counts as clear or difficult terrain. If you've said that it's impassable then dangerous terrain test away. If the models have no way of getting down then that's unfortunate but hey that's life.

Personally the idea of a squad of assault terminators stuck on a roof they cant get down from shaking their hammers and claws in frustration is quite amusing, at least until it's my terminators that are stuck lol.

[Wise Ol Bird]

I don't think GW is thorough enough in their rules to answer this question, really.

I'd save that one. It will be useful in so many other threads.:rolleyes:

[Lord Azaghul]

My only thoughts: its going to be a case by case.

If the building is occupied: No (pg 79)

If its a nice large area there the models could fit in a legal DS formation: then yes, but dangerous terrain test would be taken

Something like a bastion. I would say no, because moving on top of it usually means you'll be occupying it - and DSing INTO buildings is forbidden.

[Nabterayl]

If its a nice large area there the models could fit in a legal DS formation: then yes, but dangerous terrain test would be taken
Why a Dangerous Terrain test?


Something like a bastion. I would say no, because moving on top of it usually means you'll be occupying it - and DSing INTO buildings is forbidden.
"Moving on top of it usually means you'll be occupying it" - can you expand that a bit for me? Why would it mean that?

[Lord Azaghul]

Why a Dangerous Terrain test?


"Moving on top of it usually means you'll be occupying it" - can you expand that a bit for me? Why would it mean that?

Dangerous: Because all jump packs treat impassible has dangerous (pg52). And the DS rules declare building impassible

Per building rules: pg 80. I'm mainly thinking parapets and battlements here. Think about a bastion. In game models are usually place ontop to repersent the building has being 'occupied' - but they are not neccearily on top of the building. Now if you DS onto a parapent, you're suddenly firing from 'on top' of a building (incuring the +1 on the damage chart) and it would seems - thus occupying the building - and that would be DSing into a building - does that make sense?

[Nabterayl]

Dangerous: Because all jump packs treat impassible has dangerous (pg52). And the DS rules declare building impassible
I suppose. You know, the more I read that line, the more I wonder if there isn't some unwritten rule about vertical faces poking through here. Maybe that's a topic for another thread.


Per building rules: pg 80. I'm mainly thinking parapets and battlements here. Think about a bastion. In game models are usually place ontop to repersent the building has being 'occupied' - but they are not neccearily on top of the building. Now if you DS onto a parapent, you're suddenly firing from 'on top' of a building (incuring the +1 on the damage chart) and it would seems - thus occupying the building - and that would be DSing into a building - does that make sense?
It does make sense, but I'm not sure I agree. The way the parapet rules read to me is that the parapet is really more like a special top floor of the building than anything else. That is, I'm inclined to see the parapet rules as stating that you can only be "on the parapet" if you're already occupying the building. I'm not sure it's clear that jumping onto a parapet from the outside of a building puts you "on the parapet" in a rules sense (e.g., if you jump onto a parapet from outside, I'd be inclined to say that you can still be targeted independently of the building, unless the players have agreed in advance that the parapet constitutes an access point, in which case you could jump onto the parapet and then enter the building, remaining "on the parapet" if you so desired).

Now of course if you read page 95 as saying that all buildings are impassable terrain for purposes of Deep Strike, whether or not they are impassable for other purposes, I would agree with you that Deep Striking onto the parapet of an empty building constitutes a mishap, no matter which way you go on the issue of whether you can be on a parapet without being "on the parapet."

[Lord Inquisitor]

So my view on this subject is now that buildings are impassable. I am now basically dropping what I said before about scattering off buildings. And as a building is impassable you would roll on the mishap table.

There is then Impassable Buildings which are buildings that cannot be entered but are impassable like all other buildings.

Jump infantry, jetbikes, and skimmers may move on top of buildings, if they can stand, like any other impassable terrain. They can't be on top of a building that has enemy models in it.

That is were I am at, at the moment. What do you guys think?

[Denzark]

If I remember, when shooting a blast template at a building, it only hits the level you fire at- if it scatters away from the miniatures on that level it misses, even if some are under the template but on a different level.

By this method, without any rules guff or semantics of english, it would make sense to me that if you could not physically fit the entire unit on that level in accordance with the rules for positioning deep strike, then some sort of mishap would be appropriate. Terminators 1-4 arrive on the roof, number 5 arrives in thin air, does some comedy Wile E Coyote air-running, then plummets off the building.

[Lord Azaghul]

If I remember, when shooting a blast template at a building, it only hits the level you fire at- if it scatters away from the miniatures on that level it misses, even if some are under the template but on a different level.

By this method, without any rules guff or semantics of english, it would make sense to me that if you could not physically fit the entire unit on that level in accordance with the rules for positioning deep strike, then some sort of mishap would be appropriate. Terminators 1-4 arrive on the roof, number 5 arrives in thin air, does some comedy Wile E Coyote air-running, then plummets off the building.

That's ruins only. Buildings are treated just like vehicles. IE only one unit may occupy a building, normally the models inside may not be targets, expect by flamer templates.

[Denzark]

That's ruins only. Buildings are treated just like vehicles. IE only one unit may occupy a building, normally the models inside may not be targets, expect by flamer templates.

Fair enough - take my rationale and substitute ruins for buildings - still seems pretty logical.

[gcsmith]

depends You can have intact ruins or buildings which you treat as normal terrain

[Lord Inquisitor]

Ruins specifically state that you must deep strike on the ground level.

[Gnoblar with Pointy Stick]

The answer to this is simple. If you are having a rules dispute with your opponent on being on top of a building, scoot your chairs away from the table, stand on top of them, and smack each other with your rule books until one of you falls off and breaks a hip.

[Lerra]

Locally, we treat intact buildings that can't be entered as if there were a giant solid block of concrete. It's basically just a cliff or mesa at that point: it costs 3" to move up or down and it's considered clear terrain on top. The roof is the bottom level because there is nothing below it other than solid ground. So you would be able to deep strike onto it, and scattering would be the same as scattering off of a cliff. That way, you avoid issues with trapped deep strikers and shooting platforms that can't be touched by assault units.

We haven't had any issues pop up with that system, and it cuts out some of the abusiveness of untouchable units on top of a building.