The Emperor, his lucidity and Astropaths

[Gotthammer]

Ok, so the current lore is that the Emperor may not even be speaking / inhabiting his mortal shell, and noby has been to see him lately.

But where does that leave Astropaths? The background is very specific that the soul binding is performed by the Emperor reshaping their minds to be highly resistant to daemonic / warp influence, and it is his massive imparting of power that blinds them (and leaves them without other senses on occasion).


So this indicates it is a concious action by the Emperor to soulbind these candidates, indicating at least some awareness of his surroundings in the mortal world.

It can't simply be an area effect power as otherwise you'd have random people's eyes melting (and they'd spontaniously develop astrotelepathy) when they get near the Emp, and there are several non-difinitive sources indicating other people may have semi-regular contact with the Emp (master or the Mentors, various Inquisitors) and they are unaffected.


It was also stated Astropaths are put before the Golden Throne when this happens, so why aren't Astropaths treated as semi-divine? They've had contact with the Emperor's mightyness, and potentially been in His direct presence - from that viewpoint they're on the way to being saints almost.

Is there some recent stuff saying in more detail the 'current' process of Astropathication? Does it say how it's done in any more detail? Does Dark Heresy of Rouge Trader RPG have anything?

[Subject Keyword]

The Emperor is dead.
He left behind a massive amount of psychic energy, and the dogs of the Imperium gather and leech off of it in different ways.
Not that my Xenos opinion matters...

[Faultie]

Is there some recent stuff saying in more detail the 'current' process of Astropathication? Does it say how it's done in any more detail? Does Dark Heresy of Rouge Trader RPG have anything?I believe that either the DH or RT book talk about it a good bit (can't recall which).
Also, Blind (the 3rd book in the Shira Calpurnia series) deals with the Astrotelepathica a lot, and really delves into how they operate, how they're made, etc.

[eldargal]

His physical presence has merely 'a spark of life' to quote some peice of fluff or other, but it is enough to keep is mind and psychic presence alive.


The Emperor is dead.
He left behind a massive amount of psychic energy, and the dogs of the Imperium gather and leech off of it in different ways.
Not that my Xenos opinion matters...

[Nabterayl]

In other words, something is there.

[Melissia]

The Emperor is alive in the sense that his consciosuness still roams the galaxy pushing his will upon it and combatting the chaos gods. Whether or not his body is alive isn't ENTIRELY relevant.

[Kahoolin]

I never really thought soul binding was a conscious act of the Emperor's. I guess I always thought that the AAT officials used a sort of psychic surgery to open potential's minds and then link them to the Astronomicon, not to the actual Emperor. It is the blazing psychic power of the beacon that melts their eyes, not the Emperor's intention. I could be wrong though.

I always thought the Emperor's lucidity was Ecclesiarchy myth, and the reality was either that he is dead and the Astronomicon is all that is left (i.e. the Astronomicon IS the Emperor's soul), or that he is alive but so out of it that he doesn't notice what the little people are doing in realspace at all, he just maintains the beacon. Odd, I never really felt like the Emperor had anything to do with soul binding - it seemed like something people did without his permission.

[Gotthammer]

I believe that either the DH or RT book talk about it a good bit (can't recall which).
Also, Blind (the 3rd book in the Shira Calpurnia series) deals with the Astrotelepathica a lot, and really delves into how they operate, how they're made, etc.

Thanks, have to look up if they're going to be available from the BL print on demand. Anyone with these books care to share?



The Emperor is alive in the sense that his consciosuness still roams the galaxy pushing his will upon it and combatting the chaos gods. Whether or not his body is alive isn't ENTIRELY relevant.

Yes, but if he's popping in every now and then to perform some soul bindings his body is still kinda alive, or at least temporarily inhabited now and then.



I never really thought soul binding was a conscious act of the Emperor's. I guess I always thought that the AAT officials used a sort of psychic surgery to open potential's minds and then link them to the Astronomicon, not to the actual Emperor. It is the blazing psychic power of the beacon that melts their eyes, not the Emperor's intention. I could be wrong though.

Possible explaination, the most reasonable in the case - but there is the side effect that they all get telepathy, so there has to be something more than just exposure to power going on.



I always thought the Emperor's lucidity was Ecclesiarchy myth, and the reality was either that he is dead and the Astronomicon is all that is left (i.e. the Astronomicon IS the Emperor's soul), or that he is alive but so out of it that he doesn't notice what the little people are doing in realspace at all, he just maintains the beacon. Odd, I never really felt like the Emperor had anything to do with soul binding - it seemed like something people did without his permission.


That raises an interesting point of Astropaths during the Horus Heresy - they've been described as blind also. Given the Imperial Truth of the time soul binding seems unneccessary (due to their 'being nothing in the warp to worry about'), however it could be explained by the Emp as being how he gives them astrotelepathy.
But if it is performed by the Emperor's power, either by arcane tech siphoning it off or by him personally,how was the process done while he was crusading?

Personally I think blind Astropaths in the HH is a plot oversight, as is the changing of his awareness of the world (in regards to how Astropaths are made at least).

[entendre_entendre]

That raises an interesting point of Astropaths during the Horus Heresy - they've been described as blind also. Given the Imperial Truth of the time soul binding seems unneccessary (due to their 'being nothing in the warp to worry about'), however it could be explained by the Emp as being how he gives them astrotelepathy.
But if it is performed by the Emperor's power, either by arcane tech siphoning it off or by him personally,how was the process done while he was crusading?

I was puzzled by this as well. The 3rd ed rulebook has this to say on the soul binding (p108):


... culminating in a special ritual which combines some of the Emperor's own power with their own. This ritual, known as the Soul Binding, brings the mind of the psyker close to the psychic greatness of the Emperor. In the process, some of the Emperor's vast energy is transferred to the Astropath.

It goes on to say that not all astropaths are blind, but the ritual causes damage to the optic nerves. Also that not all who attempt to become astropaths succeed, some die or go insane.

I always assumed that this was done through some arcane machine on the side of the golden throne or something, but it would seem that it could be possible for the Emperor to do this in person as well (Vulcan mind meld anyone?), which would explain the Heresy era astropaths.

The bit about a transference of energy from teh Emprah to the 'path gives food for thought. If a portion (however minute) of His power is transferred to the astropath every time a Soul Binding is successful and this process has continued non-stop for 10,000+ years, the Emperor's power would be much smaller in M41 than in M31.

This brings up an interesting notion that the Soul Binding ritual itself is weakening the Emperor and causing the Astronomicon to fade. The Imperium is crumbling due to the fading of the Astornomicon and the failings or the Golden Throne. The cause of this is due to the Imperium's need for more and more astropaths to assist on its war fronts. This in turn weakens the Emperor which weakens his powers and the Astronomicon which causes the Imperium to be pushed back, raising the need for astropaths to assist on the new fronts which results in more Soul Binding rituals to be conducted...

It all ends in a spiral which ends in the end of the Imperium. Now that's something to ponder for all you corpse-worshipers.

[Duke]

I always imagined that the emperors spirit is doing something like magnus did in "a thousand sons" it is in the immaterium fighting daemons and such and keepig them out of his little webway that magnus put a huge hole in. His body isn't dead, but isn't truly alive either, since his soul hasn't been in it for 10k years.

Soul binding seems like a process similar to creating a passcode for a website. You k ow the address and use the code to locate the information, the website host (the emperor) allows you access, but doesn't do anything directly.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

The bit about a transference of energy from teh Emprah to the 'path gives food for thought. If a portion (however minute) of His power is transferred to the astropath every time a Soul Binding is successful and this process has continued non-stop for 10,000+ years, the Emperor's power would be much smaller in M41 than in M31.
I'm not sure it's accurate to say that "transferring" some of the Emperor's power to an astropath results in a weakening of His psychic might. That assumes that the Emperor's power is both finite and non-replenishing, which I'm not sure is a good way to think about it.

Consider: when we say that a psyker is "powerful," we are referring to the range of things they can do, not to some internal reservoir of power that is used up over their lifetime. We might say that Tigurius is one of the most "powerful" psykers in the Imperium, for instance, but if he performs a great psychic feat today we would not say that he is less powerful than he was yesterday. This is because when we speak of Tigurius' "power" we are not speaking of something like money that can be increased by hoarding it and decreased by giving it out.

Similarly, I've always assumed that the Emperor "transfers" some of His power to astropaths in the sense that he expands the range of things they are capable of (at least, as regards astrotelepathy). I'd be surprised if doing so actually reduced the Emperor's own power, though. That suggests to me a very odd view of what psychic "power" really is.

[Kahoolin]

I was thinking the same thing. If psychic power transferred from one place to another in the same sense that my giving you three apples makes me three apples short, then it wouldn't be very mysterious - it would function just like any form of scientifically explicable energy.

@Entendre, your idea of soul-binding being a downward spiral that is destroying the Imperium is very cool though. It's totally 40k in spirit :D

[Melissia]

Psykers have an essentially limitless supply of eneryg, so to speak, to draw upon.

I think a better analogy would be an internet connection. Most psykers would be 28.8k modems, compared to the Emperor's military-grade highly reinforced and secure multi-terabyte connection with beyond state of the art software. Assume limitless power supply and access to a galaxy-wide internet, and the Emperor's connection is so powerful that he can effect things across the entire galaxy, not just on one world.

[Gotthammer]

I was puzzled by this as well. The 3rd ed rulebook has this to say on the soul binding (p108):

It goes on to say that not all astropaths are blind, but the ritual causes damage to the optic nerves. Also that not all who attempt to become astropaths succeed, some die or go insane.

I checked the 2nd ed Codex Imperialis and that's a direct copy from there. Rogue Trader has this to say:


All astropaths undergo a special process which moulds their powers and at the same time strengthens them against psychic danger. This is called the Soul-binding and only the Emperor has the power to perform it.
It takes place in the great palace, where the psykers are led before the Emperor one hundred at a time. Knelt before the Emperor they must endure several hours of agony whilst the Emperor uses his powers to reshape their minds - mingling a little of his immesurable power with their own.

Also of interest is it mentions each planet having at least hundreds of Astropaths. But it is very specific about them being in the Emperors presence and him doing it directly. It is quite old, however, but unless something in the RT-RPG or DH books (or the novel Faultie mentioned) contradicts it I guess it still stands...
Maybe that's what the Custodes do all the time, look after the Soul Binding chamber.



I always assumed that this was done through some arcane machine on the side of the golden throne or something, but it would seem that it could be possible for the Emperor to do this in person as well (Vulcan mind meld anyone?), which would explain the Heresy era astropaths.

The bit about a transference of energy from teh Emprah to the 'path gives food for thought. If a portion (however minute) of His power is transferred to the astropath every time a Soul Binding is successful and this process has continued non-stop for 10,000+ years, the Emperor's power would be much smaller in M41 than in M31.

This brings up an interesting notion that the Soul Binding ritual itself is weakening the Emperor and causing the Astronomicon to fade. The Imperium is crumbling due to the fading of the Astornomicon and the failings or the Golden Throne. The cause of this is due to the Imperium's need for more and more astropaths to assist on its war fronts. This in turn weakens the Emperor which weakens his powers and the Astronomicon which causes the Imperium to be pushed back, raising the need for astropaths to assist on the new fronts which results in more Soul Binding rituals to be conducted...

It all ends in a spiral which ends in the end of the Imperium. Now that's something to ponder for all you corpse-worshipers.

Well according to Codex: Daemons, when one of the big four creates a lesser daemon they loose some of their essence to create the gribbly thing, but can regain it when it is destroyed in teh material world and sent back into the warp. So if the Emperor uses 5% of his power when creating Astropaths, and is thus operating at 95% efficiency, and the Astropaths all die he would spring back to 100%, until he recreates the Astropaths.

[Melissia]

That's assuming he loses any in the first place. The Emperor is not a Chaos God.

[entendre_entendre]

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that "transferring" some of the Emperor's power to an astropath results in a weakening of His psychic might. That assumes that the Emperor's power is both finite and non-replenishing, which I'm not sure is a good way to think about it.

Consider: when we say that a psyker is "powerful," we are referring to the range of things they can do, not to some internal reservoir of power that is used up over their lifetime. We might say that Tigurius is one of the most "powerful" psykers in the Imperium, for instance, but if he performs a great psychic feat today we would not say that he is less powerful than he was yesterday. This is because when we speak of Tigurius' "power" we are not speaking of something like money that can be increased by hoarding it and decreased by giving it out.

Similarly, I've always assumed that the Emperor "transfers" some of His power to astropaths in the sense that he expands the range of things they are capable of (at least, as regards astrotelepathy). I'd be surprised if doing so actually reduced the Emperor's own power, though. That suggests to me a very odd view of what psychic "power" really is.

Tigurius has time to rest and replenish his powers between uses, the Emperor's powers are in constant use, giving him no time to "recharge" as it were. It's not so much that the overall power of the Emperor is infinite, it's just that he only has a finite amount of power to use in between "rest periods" (even if that amount is nearly infinite). If Tigurius was constantly using his powers at a particular rate that he could not stop using for whatever reason, and someone was using a very tiny (i.e. microscopic) proportion of his power at the same time, eventually he would run out. It might take thousands of years (or ten) to do so, but it would happen. If the Emperor took a break, even if for just a second, the Astronomicon would falter and plunge the Imperium into anarchy as hundreds, if not thousands of ships would be lost. The 5th ed. rulebook says that even a flicker in the Astronomicon sends many ships to their doom, imagine what a small break might do. This doesn't even account for the Daemons on the other side of the webway gate under the Golden Throne exploiting the sudden weakness in the barrier.

Psykers tire if they use their powers too much, but if a psyker cannot rest without dying, even if their powers are almost infinite, they will eventually fall, it's just a matter of time.

I suppose the real question is: how infinite is the Emperor's powers if at all?

[Kahoolin]

Tigurius (like other psykers) has to rest because his physical form cannot indefinitely sustain the amount of stress that using his powers demands. The Emperor's powers are not connected to his physical endurance - either he is dead and already in the warp (in which case he is no longer limited by his physicality), or he lives, and the Golden Throne deals with the psychic stress by supporting his physical form. If the Throne were to fail, the Emperor's maintenance of the Astronomicon would undoubtedly kill him pretty quickly.

So long as the Throne is running though, then the Emperor can function at 100% capacity. He doesn't need to rest. That's the whole point isn't it?

[Nabterayl]

Either way, it sounds like we can agree (within the limits of our data, at any rate) that soul-binding is more a question of the Emperor molding and strengthening astropaths than it is taking chunks of his power and giving them up?

[entendre_entendre]

I wouldn't say "chunks" (more like mono-molecular slivers), but sure, he uses some of his concentration to "assist" the astropath in expanding their powers.

[Nabterayl]

I wouldn't say "chunks" (more like mono-molecular slivers), but sure, he uses some of his concentration to "assist" the astropath in expanding their powers.
Sure, but "uses" in the sense of "loses forever?"

[eldargal]

I would consider it a delegation of the Emperor's power. The Astropath is using and directing it, but if the Emperor ever needed it he could suck it back up. Causing the Astronomicon to collapse, of course. So not good.


Sure, but "uses" in the sense of "loses forever?"

[Fellend]

Um I want to argue that refering to 2:ed codices and so on might not be the wisest of cases. If we assume that all astropaths are brought before golden palace we are directly arguing against the vastness of the 40k universe. It's often mentioned that it would take years and years and years to go from one side to the other. If we think of the logistics involved in bringing one possible astropath from the out rims (is outer side? outer circle? I'm not really sure what to use) to Terra and then send them back again to be of any use in those sectors. Well most likely the out sectors wouldn't have any astrotelepaths.

I think being brought before the golden throne is a more metaphoric term. Kind of like the christian idea of eating and drinking the body and blood of christ. And just because the Emperor gives some of his power to someone I doubt it's a number that can be measured compared to his immense power for two reasons.

1: The chaos gods, does their power wane if they give gifts? Does the demons powers wane if they give gifts? Does All psychic powers have a limited "mana" supply and they'll be used up. In that case what about the more or less immortal Mephistion? Shouldn't he be nearing the end?

2: If power is connected to prayer and worship as it seems to be suggested throughout the 40k universe, We can safely assume that the Emperor bestowing power upon an astropath is a drop in the ocean compared to endless amount of worshippers that are born every day.

[gorepants]

Um I want to argue that refering to 2:ed codices and so on might not be the wisest of cases. If we assume that all astropaths are brought before golden palace we are directly arguing against the vastness of the 40k universe. It's often mentioned that it would take years and years and years to go from one side to the other. If we think of the logistics involved in bringing one possible astropath from the out rims (is outer side? outer circle? I'm not really sure what to use) to Terra and then send them back again to be of any use in those sectors. Well most likely the out sectors wouldn't have any astrotelepaths.

I dunno, the 40k writers suffer pretty badly from problems with scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale), so the whole thing is pretty unclear. In the old fluff (and a bit like the new fluff for Horus Heresy with the Sisters of Silence) there was a whole portion of the beaurocracy devoted to move psykers back and forth across the galaxy. Given they regularly ship armies across the galaxy, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for an empire that likes to do things the hard (read stupid) way to have a constant stream of psykers coming in. It doesn't eaven matter if they take ages in real time since once the supply is started it should be even enough to nto cause any trouble. The deal used to be they shipped them in their thousands on each barge so the scale is a little more reasonable when you think of thousands of barges arriving each year, which even with the attrition of soul binding could be millions of new astropaths each year.


I think being brought before the golden throne is a more metaphoric term. Kind of like the christian idea of eating and drinking the body and blood of christ. And just because the Emperor gives some of his power to someone I doubt it's a number that can be measured compared to his immense power for two reasons.

Also the Emperor's effective power isn't that great in the real world, that is he may be able to cast pyschic beacons across the galaxy, but the can't make people heads explode, so it'd be a little hard to soul bind (and I think it's a bit more Catholic, less Protestant - the Emperor really is doing something, not just laying metaphors on people, otherwise soul binding, well, wouldn't be soul binding).


2: If power is connected to prayer and worship as it seems to be suggested throughout the 40k universe, We can safely assume that the Emperor bestowing power upon an astropath is a drop in the ocean compared to endless amount of worshippers that are born every day.

I thought it was more that the warp is more a source of power, and that it is given form by emotions (such as worship), and that the Emperor is has a great connection to this (depending on where you draw the line with star children and sensei knights and other sillyness). Someone may want to correct me.

Actually, I'd always imagined psykers as having a sort of hose in them, and they take so much pressure from it. Someone like the Emperor is like one of those really big hydroelectric pipes, but a normal psyker is a garden hose. Without the Emperor providing a proper reinforced cloth wrapping, if the pressure is turned up the normal psyker will explode in to tentacles and stuff. Especially if he's been left out in the sun and gone all hard and brittle. Or maybe I'm tired and rambling.

[Melissia]

Look up the fluff on the Inquisition's Black Ships.

[mr1029384756]

That's assuming he loses any in the first place. The Emperor is not a Chaos God.

He could be... There are a few rumors circulating that he may be a 5th Chaos God in a gestating period. Think about this, Slaanesh was created from the combined Id of the Eldar, that is, their underlying psychology for all things pleasurable due in part to their vastly superior senses if compaired to your garden-variety human. Psykers all with the added advantage of being a hyper-evolved race - sort of does wonders for a culture's collectve hubris.

After the Fall of the Eldar and the spaw of everyone's favorite he-she God, the Dark Eldar were cursed with the Thirst and most of the Eldar pantheon were wiped out, leaving their souls without an afterlife (ie a Patron's world in the Immaterium) and making all who perish feed into the newest Chaos God's resevoir of power (obviously, whoever had one of those stones didn't go to Slaanesh).

Now, case in point, the Emperor, here's a guy who was born of all the collective might of humanity's then-psykers, each of whom were able to reincarnate over thousands of years, thousands of times. Take that along with his very own lifespan, nodding to the belief that psykers get stronger over time, and the HH. Ten thousands years later, this guy's transcended his most of his psysical limits save for the fact that his soul still needs a miniscule of his body's life-force to anchor (and thus focus) his powers upon.

Thousands of innate psykers are drained each day to fuel his power, to strengthen the bond between his mind and his body, and what do you have? A being of such power that he can affect the physical world without use of his body as a focci (through prayer of purification, seals, all that jazz), who is continually being fed the anima of living beings as a "tribute" for his power (the Astronomicon), a creature that genetically has the capacity to reincarnate into physical being once destroyed.

If nothing else speaks to me, a noob, it sounds like a Chaos God ready to be born. A fifth God of the Immaterium...

[Azrell]

He could be... There are a few rumors circulating that he may be a 5th Chaos God in a gestating period. Think about this, Slaanesh was created from the combined Id of the Eldar, that is, their underlying psychology for all things pleasurable due in part to their vastly superior senses if compaired to your garden-variety human. Psykers all with the added advantage of being a hyper-evolved race - sort of does wonders for a culture's collectve hubris.

After the Fall of the Eldar and the spaw of everyone's favorite he-she God, the Dark Eldar were cursed with the Thirst and most of the Eldar pantheon were wiped out, leaving their souls without an afterlife (ie a Patron's world in the Immaterium) and making all who perish feed into the newest Chaos God's resevoir of power (obviously, whoever had one of those stones didn't go to Slaanesh).

Now, case in point, the Emperor, here's a guy who was born of all the collective might of humanity's then-psykers, each of whom were able to reincarnate over thousands of years, thousands of times. Take that along with his very own lifespan, nodding to the belief that psykers get stronger over time, and the HH. Ten thousands years later, this guy's transcended his most of his psysical limits save for the fact that his soul still needs a miniscule of his body's life-force to anchor (and thus focus) his powers upon.

Thousands of innate psykers are drained each day to fuel his power, to strengthen the bond between his mind and his body, and what do you have? A being of such power that he can affect the physical world without use of his body as a focci (through prayer of purification, seals, all that jazz), who is continually being fed the anima of living beings as a "tribute" for his power (the Astronomicon), a creature that genetically has the capacity to reincarnate into physical being once destroyed.

If nothing else speaks to me, a noob, it sounds like a Chaos God ready to be born. A fifth God of the Immaterium...

That or he is one of the old ones. From the very start he seemed to know that getting people not to worship the Chaos gods would cause there power to dwindle.

It could just be that each of the Old Ones created a race and used to to translate into the warp to get away from the Star Gods, the emperor and humanity my just be the next one to go.

[Kahoolin]

That or he is one of the old ones. From the very start he seemed to know that getting people not to worship the Chaos gods would cause there power to dwindle.

It could just be that each of the Old Ones created a race and used to to translate into the warp to get away from the Star Gods, the emperor and humanity my just be the next one to go.AARGH NO! Don't make the Emperor a bloody Old One! Enough already with the Old Ones!