Ultramarines players: Where's the love?

[Kahoolin]

I was just struck by this throwaway remark in another thread:
On the other hand im not impressed with the ultramarines player who picks up the latest, hardest SM varient dex released and claims it as his own.I'm not having a go at rbryce in particular, I even understand the point he's making, but it's starting to get me down the amount of bashing the Ultras get online.

The only UM players I've ever actually met (and I've only ever met two, when supposedly every second player has Ultras) were experienced, dedicated players who loved their army despite the fact that it is the uncoolest faction in an uncool hobby. They would never hop codices for an advantage, and they take pride in being UM players. The Ultras have this stigma online as being the army people pick when they don't really care about the game, but in my experience the opposite is true. It's hard to stick to your army when it is constantly being outshined by less subtle variants and used by non-marine players as a buzzword for everything that sucks about 40k.

So this thread will hopefully go a little way to redressing the balance. Tell us about your local UM player, if there is one. If you disagree and think that UM players are gormless n00bs who should pick a real flavour then I guess you can say that too but please give an example.

So props to the boys in blue. Who's with me? :D

[lobster-overlord]

<<touches nose>>NOT IT!

Blood Angels for a long long time....

But I think what was being stated by that is a person who buys heavily into the C:SM (vanilla style) and then because they already have Space Marine models, jump ship and go with the newest iteration of the Astartes because they're better (codex creep) and feign alegiance to the new codex over the old.

The hard core UM players wouldn't be the ones moving to the new codex, as you've stated.

Our local UM players are quite vocal about UM. One guy has both BA and UM, and keeps them segregated. Another was a noob, so he painted them as UM, then moved on to another faction and repainted (still using C:SM though). The noob is younger, so likely won't spend money to differentiate.

A third is a creeper. He buys almost every codex and builds the uber list, so he'll likely pick up BA and play that for a while (thankfully he's not a tourney player).

Me... I'm an Apoc player so I don't particularly care. I had to pick up C:SM to be able to play using the models I like (the new redeemer for instance), but used the PDF for BA for my regular games. I pick what I like from them all and go from there (BA with Thunderfire, etc.)

John M.

[Mike X]

I haven't actually met an Ultramarines player yet. Sure, I use the generic/vanilla SM codex for my own army, but my color scheme and chapter is original. In fact, my army is often confused with Blood Angels because of the prominent red. However, I don't "jump ship" or practice "counts as" with new codexs.

[therealjohnny5]

i think a lot of the anti UM vibe comes more from them being GW's pet army and for years we couldn't get away from them either in fluff, table tops bc they sold them to new kids, or in products that favored them specifically. i don't think that's necessarily the case anymore. I see a decent number of UM players now and again, but i see just as many or more "codex of the month" armies. The diversity offered for SM players now has alleviated most of that tendency to see UM everywhere for me at least. now however we have the new marine trend which is a bit more annoying to me, except for the long time players, you guys get a kudos, even if you're playing UM.

edit: and another thing is, Marines are the generic, newb\GW's favorite\see them everywhere\ relatively easy army and the UM's have been the overdone armies cover child, so they've gotten the most negativity.

[Ulag Grimskar]

I have to agree, UM Players are subject to lots of hate on the net, something that consistently POs my oldest opponent, who loves his smurfs with a passion, and has done so for the last 15-something years. His army (though I hate to admit it´s better than mine ^^) is the most beautifully painted of all armies I regularly play against. Painting for such a long time, his 2. and 3. Companies are still growing, as are the 1. and 10. (this guy is really serious!!!) He would also NEVER bandwagon or anything, despite being obsessed with CC. He´s expressed a lot of envy for crazy CC builds like SW or BA allow, but to abandon Ultramar??!!?? NEVER!!!
I also know another guy whos been playing UM with and equally beautiful army, whos even started them for Rouge Trader back in the days. This guy is also well serious about his Ultras, although he has other armies, too.

Most other UM players I know or have met over the years also fall into this category, being dedicated followers of Gulliman´s teachings rather than creep-craving bandwagoners waiting to repaint their BA in Black once the Templars are out (in 2040? ^^).

What I´m trying to say is, I guess someone - if anyone at all -whos getting started and decides on BA or SW is more of a bandwagoner than a new UM player, since the Internet itself agrees on how much cooler the Reds and Greys are than the blue dudes. Thats not to say I scorn anyone for the army they like, I just think the overall hatred is directed the wrong way.

[eldargal]

People resent the poster boy, thats all it is. Back when it was Blood Angels on the cover of everything (circa 2nd edition) they had all the hate. Its really rather silly and I don't hold with it myself. I actually think Ultramarines are more interesting than Space Wolves , Black Templar and a bunch of others.

[Capn Stoogey]

"FOR ULTRAMAR!"

I play Ultramarines.

There, it's said.
I first started the hobby back around 2nd ed I think, when you got that little starter kit thing with a couple of paints, a Marine Sgt and a couple of Gobbos. After a day or so that Sgt was a (badly painted) Blood Angel. I played with them for a while until I moved onto space wolves for the whole space viking flavour. Then I played around with Chaos for a bit. After a while I kinda got a bit sick of the whole "grab something sharp and run at the bad guy" feel that these army had, so I decided to try some shooty goodness. Enter the Tau. We had fun for a while but the spark just wasn't there,and none of these armys really grew on me.

I think I turned to Ultras Mainly because I love the colour scheme of the royal blue with gold trimming, but upon delving deeper into the fluff I had finally found the background I had been looking for!
I like the classical flavour of ancient Greek/Roman inspired stylings and tactics. Where Chapters Like the Blood Angels and Space wolves are almost beserk in their race to get stuck in, the Ultramarines are methodical and precise in their attacks, waiting until all pieces are in place before unleashing hell upon the hated foe.This precision and cool, levelheadedness is what has kept me a devoted Smurf lover for all these years.

I must admit I do get sick of all the antismurfites out there raging away at my little blue men, but its also kinda funny to rile them up a bit with a few pointed comments, and then watch them go on a rant about how their own invented chapter, the Super Awesome Happy time Killer Space Emos, are so much more interesting and unique.

Cheers for the Blue love people, its nice to know that not everyone is an antismurfite hate tard.

[rbryce]

to the op, that was an example.if the Dark angels had a recent dex(in terms of marines in general) and jumped to the latest it would stand the same. for me its not the force thats being played, but the idea of "ohmygodthisissomuchbetterthanminegottahaveit!" mentality i dislike. i would be miffed if a player came up to me in a pick-up game set down army x, and then said theyre using army z because it was better than their own ruleset. not specifically marines either, its just a general disgruntlement. i dont "hate marines", yeah they get boring to see all the time, but im looking at 3 ultramarines 4th company on my desk right now...



(and one of them is my own Pasanius, and another Lerchus)

[Lord Azaghul]

I'm starting codex marines (after playing IG for 2 years), mainly cause I like the Ultramar fluff, and drop pods - Most of the time I'll be runing codex marines, but on occation it'll be pedro - cause my paint schemes is crimson fist.:D

BUT - we do have a few players in my area who manage to pick up every new army(mureeen or other wise), play 2 games with it - and wonder why that still aren't winning...

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I cant really "hate" any toy soldiers, but I dont particularly find any "template" type of army interesting either - I prefer seeing homebrewn chapters, warbands, craftworlds ect..but thats just my personal preference. I think people should just like what they like overall.

[Loken]

Honestly, I don't know anyone at the SoCal Battle Bunker who hates UM. In fact, the UM players I know all play only smurfs and stick to it because they like them. I don't see the codex jumping.

However, I have a codex army now (Crimson Templars) with Sisters allies, but also have a Dark Angels (my first army 12 years ago) and Blood Angels army (9 years ago). I basically started my BA army because my style of play is very aggressive and I loved the 3rd edition FC rule. It fit my game. I never play Dark Angels anymore because of that and I read Angels of Darkness and can't play a chaos army! :-)

I gave my girlfriend my Blood Angels for Christmas (she started a BA army last year when we started dating) and will build a new army with the new codex. And I will play both armies. I like the differences and don't see the BA as a huge advantage, but rather a different style army.

Alec

[david5th]

All i have to say is

" COURAGE AND HONOUR "

[Melissia]

i think a lot of the anti UM vibe comes more from them being GW's pet army and for years we couldn't get away from them either in fluff, table tops bc they sold them to new kids, or in products that favored them specifically.

Right, it wouldn't matter which marine chapter they picked to constantly wank.

Let's not forget the "every chapter wants to be Ultramarines" quote that pissed people off to no end.

[Lord Azaghul]

Right, it wouldn't matter which marine chapter they picked to constantly wank.

Let's not forget the "every chapter wants to be Ultramarines" quote that pissed people off to no end.

I'm ok with the quote.
...
After all it is just a game!

[therealjohnny5]

People resent the poster boy, thats all it is. Back when it was Blood Angels on the cover of everything (circa 2nd edition) they had all the hate. Its really rather silly and I don't hold with it myself. I actually think Ultramarines are more interesting than Space Wolves , Black Templar and a bunch of others.

Yeah, posterboys....good way to put it. Personally i enjoyed the Ultramarines omnibus and think their fluff is much better than newer codex armies, just don't care to field an army that's all over the place and not a fan of the color scheme that much either...


I'm ok with the quote.
...
After all it is just a game!

wait....what? Since when was this just a game? that sounds suspiciously close to heresy my friend. next you'll be saying ridiculous things like, "have fun" and "enjoy"....you walk a thin dangerous line.....:p

[MC Tic Tac]

As someone who has been playing 40k for half my life I choose Ultramarines as my newest army (Well 1st Company at the Battle of Macragge) and half the reason is to bask in the hate of my fellow vets :P

" COURAGE AND HONOUR "

[Cryl]

I'll be the second or third person to admit to an Ultramarines army. Quite a large one and I've been playing 40k with them and other forces since the cover / poster boys were the Crimson Fists so I certainly didn't pick the Ultras for that reason.

Some pics are here http://img168.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=p1010059n.jpg

I don't get the "hate" that they have as a chapter, why does painting my marines blue with white insignia make them any less cool than anything else based on the standard C:SM book? I won't change them for the latest and greatest book and I also happen to like the fluff and background they have as well as the colour scheme.

Although I wouldn't change them I have used my 'blue marines' to proxy for most other chapters with their own book at one time or another mostly to test out the option of building a different colour marine army. I've never found anything that inspired me enough the differences just weren't enough to offset the variety, perhaps a trial of the Blood Angels book will work for me. The reason for proxying them is so that I don't go and buy a load more marines just to paint them a different colour when there's not that much difference in how they play.

[ZenPaladin]

I've always been a fan of Ultra's and their balanced aproch to war. I don't play marines and never really have but if I did I'd probibly go Ultra or maybe Blood Ravens...

[BlackKnight15624]

I play UM- have been for close to 15 years now. I love the fluff and I enjoy the regimented, yet flexible playstyle the UM offers. Combat Tactics is an underestimated ability. I've also won far more games than I've lost with them, because I've gotten to know them fairly well.

Courage and Honour!

[ochs]

I play a fairly odd ultramarines army, using Cassius's strike force from the 3rd company, and being completely tailored to fight tyranids. I liked how in the latest codex, they made out Cassius to be a slight deviant within the ultramarines due to his intense hatred of the tyraninds, and I've always been interested by the fact that the 3rd company used a single battle honor from the 1st Tyranic war for their banner, rather than the typical aquila and laurels. With my army I've tried to show how this group have let their hate of the Tyraninds overcome their sense of resoned war percribed in the Codex Astartes

[DarkLink]

Way i see it, GW writes the fluff. If they say that the UMs are the most hardcore SMs in the galaxy, (second only to the Grey Knights:p), then we really can't argue with them.

A lot of people who dislike UMs remind me of whiny anti-establishment non-conformers who always do their best to do the exact opposite of what they thing is the "popular" thing. They don't see the irony of claiming to be doing their own thing, when their every action is based around letting other people decide what their opinions are (albeit by disagreeing with other people rather than agreeing).

[Melissia]

Way i see it, GW writes the fluff. If they say that the UMs are the most hardcore SMs in the galaxy, (second only to the Grey Knights:p), then we really can't argue with them.

Yes we can. GW doesn't define who is badass. That is up to the individual. Quite a damn lot of people have tried to create really badass characters but instead created loads of narm.

[Lord Azaghul]

Yes we can. GW doesn't define who is badass. That is up to the individual. Quite a damn lot of people have tried to create really badass characters but instead created loads of narm.

Wrong. Yes they do, its 'their' game in the creative, rules writing sense.
When you buy models/books you agree to play 'their' game.'

Just 'cause they haven't declared the 'sisters' the rules of the emperium doesn't mean you get to scream and holler about it.

Its their fluff, its their game. And that's fine with me.

[Lord Azaghul]

A lot of people who dislike UMs remind me of whiny anti-establishment non-conformers who always do their best to do the exact opposite of what they thing is the "popular" thing. They don't see the irony of claiming to be doing their own thing, when their every action is based around letting other people decide what their opinions are (albeit by disagreeing with other people rather than agreeing).

Double post I know, But spot on man!

You are dead right.

[JxKxR]

You know there will always be whiners and haters. The ultramarine players are not the only people who get crap for playing their army of choice. It doesn't matter what you play there will always be some douche that finds a problem with what you do. So all I can say is Fudge'em!!!

[UltramarineFan]

I have to say I'm one of those people who loves his ultramarines(note the username), I have always thought they were brilliant and they are the only pre-made chapter who have appealed to me on sight(it usually takes some cool units to spur me on), their roman-esque look probably helped a lot seeing as i have always been interested in the romans, especially their military.I have changed armies more than once but at heart I always have a soft spot for my ultras, they will always be the coolest chapter as far as I'm concerned, embodying the absolute best that a space marine chapter can be. I have to agree that I havent met many other ultramarine players either (I have a local GW as well) but those I have met have been really dedicated to their armies and have put effort into them. The reality of it is that nowadays, the most common armies are sm and whatever the flavour of the month is but not ultramarines recently it hasnt been either. Lets just hope that people begin to realise this and lay off the hate.

[therealjohnny5]

Wrong. Yes they do, its 'their' game in the creative, rules writing sense.
When you buy models/books you agree to play 'their' game.'

Just 'cause they haven't declared the 'sisters' the rules of the emperium doesn't mean you get to scream and holler about it.

Its their fluff, its their game. And that's fine with me.

i'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. GW has never declared Chuck Norris as badass, and we all know he's the ultimate badass. So therefore GW doesn't get to call it.

[Lord Azaghul]

i'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. GW has never declared Chuck Norris as badass, and we all know he's the ultimate badass. So therefore GW doesn't get to call it.

Dang! You win.

Unless gw rewrites the fluff to include Chuck Norris as the founder of the Ultramarines!:D

[DarkLink]

Yes we can. GW doesn't define who is badass. That is up to the individual. Quite a damn lot of people have tried to create really badass characters but instead created loads of narm.

Allow me to clarify. If GW says that the Ultramarines could beat the Blood Angels or Space Wolves or whatever senseless, they can. You don't have to like the UMs for it, but the people who consider UMs to be incompetent wusses have absolutely no ground to stand on.

[Just_Me]

I think most of the "hate" for the Ultramarines is actually more generalized dislike directed at the Space Marines as an army, the Ultramarines themselves just happen to be symbolic of all marines. Personally I love the marines, they were my first army (not Ultramarines, but that's another story) and still one of my largest.


Let's not forget the "every chapter wants to be Ultramarines" quote that pissed people off to no end.

Bingo. I don't hate the Ultramarines (even though I've taken a backhanded swipe at them on occasion), I actually think they have a spiffy color scheme, that their greco-roman theme is pretty cool, and many of their characters are seriously badass. What does piss me off is how hard the GW fluff works to MAKE me like them; they are already cool, but when I am flat out told that they are somehow intrinsically better than any other marine chapter out there, just by dint of being Ultramarines, I start to sense a little bit of "Mary Sue." Are they a great and noble chapter with ancient traditions and a roll of honor a light year long? Hell yes! But any marine chapter is made up of noble and skilled warriors, and any of the first founding chapters can claim histories as long and honored as the Ultramarines. And It's not even that they are the best, I could stomach that, it's the rather crass and unsubtle way that we are just TOLD they are the best.


Quite a damn lot of people have tried to create really badass characters but instead created loads of narm.

This is basically the core of what I don't like about the Ultramarines; in addition to the aforementioned points, I can't help but see Guilliman as a bit of an arrogant prick (which doesn't take away from the fact that he was pretty damned good at what he did); he *****ed and moaned when Horus was made Warmaster over him, and he swept in to clean up the mess and hand out orders left and right after several of the oft overlooked legions did the real work for him. The Ultramarines laud their Primarch's virtues and wisdom during and after the Heresy, when the fact of the matter is he was just "virtuous" and "wise" enough to be really far away while his brothers shed blood, sweat, tears, and in some cases lives to hold the line. Basically he got lucky, under different circumstances he and his legion would have been in no better shape to hold the Imperium together than anybody else.

In short, I like the Ultramarines fine, and would certainly not fault any player for using them, but I think they have been handled clumsily. My personal favorite of the original Legions are the Imperial Fists; the simple stoically tenacious adherence to duty that they show speaks more of heroism to me personally than any amount of crowing. I also have come to really love the character of Dorn, especially as we have gotten to know him better, and it always tickled me that he was considered by his brothers to be the foremost tactician among them (even if Guilliman may have actually been a better strategist).


i'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. GW has never declared Chuck Norris as badass, and we all know he's the ultimate badass. So therefore GW doesn't get to call it.

Actually, you are mistaken in this regard, GW has in fact declared Chuck Norris' badassery, they just happen to call him "The Emperor" :D

[Kahoolin]

to the op, that was an example.Hey rbryce, just wanted to make clear that I wasn't having a go at you personally :). You just provided an example I could easily quote of the Ultramarines name being used as internet code for lame. A lot of people do it and I wasn't suggesting that you hate the Ultras - my point is many of us talk about Ultramarines players like that without thinking a lot of the time.

[RocketRollRebel]

I'm totally cool with Ultramarines. In fact I don't think I have ever seen an Ultramarines army in person more than once.

[Melissia]

Allow me to clarify. If GW says that the Ultramarines could beat the Blood Angels or Space Wolves or whatever senseless, they can. You don't have to like the UMs for it, but the people who consider UMs to be incompetent wusses have absolutely no ground to stand on.
Yeah, and C:BA and C:SW says they're the most badass. GW makes a better case for the badassness of BA and SW than for the smurflings.

[Melissia]

Wrong. Yes they do, its 'their' game in the creative, rules writing sense.
When you buy models/books you agree to play 'their' game.'

Just 'cause they haven't declared the 'sisters' the rules of the emperium doesn't mean you get to scream and holler about it.

Its their fluff, its their game. And that's fine with me.

No. You cannot say "this person is badass" and then be done with it. You must describe WHY they are badass. And you must do it in a way that really makes people get the idea "damn, this person's badass". If you fail to do this, then the character is not badass.

I couldn't give one s***, nevermind two s***s, about what GW claims is badass. What some twinkletoed douchemuffin in the UK thinks is badass is irrelevant to me. Just because an author proclaims something is badass does not make it so. It never has, and it never will.

I point you to the argument of allegory versus applicability, especially Tolkien's views on applicability.

[Duke]

I don't know, I have awesomness dripping out my nose, and some dude wants to write it down... So I think that makes me pretty badass... I could kill the whole ultramarine chapter.

Now that is out of the way. I actually like the ultras and just wish they could be a bit more "roman" the only thing I don't like about the chapter is the name. Aren't they the 13 th legion? Like Caesars 13th who crossed the rubicon.

Duke

[rbryce]

i thought the big E was david carridine? if chuck norris went anywhere near the golden throne david would snap his spine like a twig lol

[ChaosPhoenix]

I know some ultra marine players and they're more the accountant type of persons. They're pretty proud players but everywhere they go, the colors seem to turn grey (or blueish for that matter), the birds stop singing and everyone gets tired very fast for no reason...

[RocketRollRebel]

I don't know, I have awesomness dripping out my nose, and some dude wants to write it down... So I think that makes me pretty badass... I could kill the whole ultramarine chapter.

Now that is out of the way. I actually like the ultras and just wish they could be a bit more "roman" the only thing I don't like about the chapter is the name. Aren't they the 13 th legion? Like Caesars 13th who crossed the rubicon.

Duke

The Roman aspect would be awesome if it were played up more and yeah the name is really kinda silly. I'm trying to picture the thought process that went into coming up with it.

[eldargal]

There used to be a really old Ultramarines captain model with a transverse crest like on a Roman officers helmet. My brother still uses it even though the pose is about as dynamic as a dead badger.


The Roman aspect would be awesome if it were played up more and yeah the name is really kinda silly. I'm trying to picture the thought process that went into coming up with it.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, and C:BA and C:SW says they're the most badass. GW makes a better case for the badassness of BA and SW than for the smurflings.

GW's fluff conventions seems to be this:

BA: We're awesome, and we'll rip your face off
SW: We're so awesome, the Inquisition is afraid of us
BT: We don't care that we're awesome, we're so busy killing everything that stands in our way
DA: We're awesome. And by awesome, we mean emo (:p)
...
etc
...
UM: We're better than everyone else, but don't really have much to back that up because GW is too busy talking about how much better than everyone else we are.

[Ivarr]

I think that all of the anti UM whining is like nerd-penis-envy. As has been stated, GW slaps UM pics on everything and has favored them in fluff and such...the space marines are marketable....they are cool looking...especially the Ultramarines...Royal blue and gold armor clad super-soldiers with the coolest guns and tanks in the universe kickin' butt against the foes of man kind...Does it get any cooler than that? Do we really expect that the people at GW would just ignore the obvious benefits of having a "poster child" army...NO! And with the vocal bunch on most gaming forums ...and even at most game shops... which ever army was chosen to represent the game would be trashed beyond reprieve...so why not let it be the UM. Not sure space elves or emo space elves, terminator rip off undead, knuckle-headed orks or even super insects would fare nearly as well under the same scrutiny.

On top of all of the hate, quite honestly the SM codex has made the Ultramarines a very middle of the road...not so winnable army from the very start of 3rd edition. The 5th edition codex is the first rules love the marines have gotten in a very very long time...and yet the loyal players did not jump ship...they did not play their UM as SW or DA or broke-assed Black Templars....the guys I know who own UM just weathered the storm...and learned to play better with what they were given.

I am building my first UM army now, and loving every minute of modeling and painting them. Sorry that I did not ignore the UM hate and do it sooner as they have always been one of my favorite things about the game. I let the "Smurfs Suck" sentiment at game shops and such talk me out of actually painting an army blue for a lot of years...

My question is, where is the UM upgrade sprue...for heavens sake, even the Templars have a very nice upgrade kit. So, everything SM has a pic of the UM on it...I want cool toys...(forge world does make some decent stuff) but I would love to see a plastic kit with tonnes of UM specific bits...

[therealjohnny5]

No. You cannot say "this person is badass" and then be done with it. You must describe WHY they are badass. And you must do it in a way that really makes people get the idea "damn, this person's badass". If you fail to do this, then the character is not badass.

I couldn't give one s***, nevermind two s***s, about what GW claims is badass. What some twinkletoed douchemuffin in the UK thinks is badass is irrelevant to me. Just because an author proclaims something is badass does not make it so. It never has, and it never will.

I point you to the argument of allegory versus applicability, especially Tolkien's views on applicability.

i love your imaginative adjectives and i wonder if you could fit any more badass in that reply...


i thought the big E was david carridine? if chuck norris went anywhere near the golden throne david would snap his spine like a twig lol

hah....you're so imaginative with your pleasant fictions...lol



My question is, where is the UM upgrade sprue...for heavens sake, even the Templars have a very nice upgrade kit. So, everything SM has a pic of the UM on it...I want cool toys...(forge world does make some decent stuff) but I would love to see a plastic kit with tonnes of UM specific bits...

almost every kit comes with a little UM business in it. shoulder pads and many characters. i have a gajillion Dpod emblems and what not if you need them. lol

[gorepants]

...they are already cool, but when I am flat out told that they are somehow intrinsically better than any other marine chapter out there, just by dint of being Ultramarines...

can't argue with this


This is basically the core of what I don't like about the Ultramarines; in addition to the aforementioned points, I can't help but see Guilliman as a bit of an arrogant prick (which doesn't take away from the fact that he was pretty damned good at what he did); he *****ed and moaned when Horus was made Warmaster over him, and he swept in to clean up the mess and hand out orders left and right after several of the oft overlooked legions did the real work for him. The Ultramarines laud their Primarch's virtues and wisdom during and after the Heresy, when the fact of the matter is he was just "virtuous" and "wise" enough to be really far away while his brothers shed blood, sweat, tears, and in some cases lives to hold the line. Basically he got lucky, under different circumstances he and his legion would have been in no better shape to hold the Imperium together than anybody else.

but this bit's not quite right - Guilliman was absent from earth because he was sent out to the fringes by Horus (and being a good boy he went), then spent the heresy fighting the Word Bearers, so he didn't really wimp out. The reason he became the boss afterwards is that all the primarchs represent archetypes, and his archetype was the considered leader, which unfortunately necessitates a certain mediocrity. And he did lead Ultramarines against both the Alpha Legion and the Emporer's Children. The difference with most other primarchs was that he didn't solely rely on his own chapter.

The bigger problem with them is the same suffered by all marines is that for a bunch of genius supermen that are not half a bunch of numpties. Marines in general dreadfully internally inconsistent and tend to a lot of stupid things stupidly, which is sometimes a little irritating.

I used to play ultras, but that was 15 years ago. I almost went back since I'm still partial to their look, but decided on a custom chapter since I wanted to play around with camo and weathering, and make up some of my own stuff. But I still have and ultra's guy who sometimes goes in my command squad as a comms man on transfer. Once I've done my marines and a small guard force I'll be starting some xenos (possible the RT ork freebooters I have in a box).

And back to the original post, part of the reason GW uses ultras is branding. Ignoring the morality of it, ultras are a very good brand image. They are:
- human
- good
- powerful
- blue
- iconic/simplified details
Compared to the previous posterboys, Blood Angels, who were
- human
- good-ish, for psychotic vampires
- powerful
- red
- iconic/simplified details
the main differences are the goodness and colour. While this may not seem much, give GW's marketing targets are young teenage boys, the change is a sensible one. They are still iconic superhuman knights, so they are easily recognised, and play to the power fantasies of young boys, but by making them gooder in the fluff, and a safer colour (http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-meaning.html), they are less threatening to parents (especially since they are more likely to be mothers who, on average, will be more averse to the whole dystopian ultraviolent future scape thing). Xenos are harder to empathise with (and yes I realise the irony of referring to space marines being easier to empathise with), guard are not as iconic (they differ in more than just colour), and inquisition/ecclisarchy are a little too religiously loaded to be a brand icon. So it is a sensible choice to use them when marketing towards new players and their parents. And (unfortunately for all the people who already play so don't need to be marketed at in quite the same way) branding requires consistency of image to work.

But on the flip side, getting new players in is still good for the rest of us, since it means more money for GW, which means they make more stuff, and since 2/3 of new players will move on to non-marines some of the love will be shared. Not perfect but in the grim darkness of the far future there will be only marketing.

[Crevab]

The Roman aspect would be awesome if it were played up more and yeah the name is really kinda silly. I'm trying to picture the thought process that went into coming up with it.

"Hmm, we want them to be known as the best marines"
"What are some synonyms for best?"
"Great, uber, ultra..."
"Hey, they're going to be blue, right? Isn't ultramarine a shade of blue?"
"Dude!"

And thus was born the ultramarine colored Ultramarines from Ultramar
Same punnery we get in other chapters, too.

[Kahoolin]

And thus was born the ultramarine colored Ultramarines from Ultramar
Same punnery we get in other chapters, too.One of my favourite quotes from this forum was when someone (can't remember who dammit) wrote:

"I am primarch Iron Hands of the Iron Hands and I have iron hands!"

I totally lol'd

[startalker]

"'That's what I keep telling him', said Phosis T'kar. 'If she's so damn keen to learn of the Crusade, send her to a Legion that cares about being immortalized, the Ultramarines or Word Bearers; She doesn't belong to us.'"
Praise or curse?:rolleyes:

[Lord Azaghul]

No. You cannot say "this person is badass" and then be done with it. You must describe WHY they are badass. And you must do it in a way that really makes people get the idea "damn, this person's badass". If you fail to do this, then the character is not badass.

I couldn't give one s***, nevermind two s***s, about what GW claims is badass. What some twinkletoed douchemuffin in the UK thinks is badass is irrelevant to me. Just because an author proclaims something is badass does not make it so. It never has, and it never will.

I point you to the argument of allegory versus applicability, especially Tolkien's views on applicability.

Ummm, yes they can. They wrote the fluff, saying ultramarines are the best...then, accourding to gw, ultramarines at the best. Ta-da!

You really do need to get over yourself, since the later half of your argument is just you claiming how 'badass' and superior you are...and well, I'm just not impressed...

[therealjohnny5]

would you be impressed if she told you she is really Chuck Norris?

[Lord Azaghul]

would you be impressed if she told you she is really Chuck Norris?

Yes.

That would then give us a most notible frame of reference!:D

[Melissia]

Ummm, yes they can. They wrote the fluff, saying ultramarines are the best...then, accourding to gw, ultramarines at the best. Ta-da!
Yes, "according to GW". Not according to me. They aren't badass. The average Imperial Guardsman is far more badass than any Space Marine ever could be.


You really do need to get over yourself, since the later half of your argument is just you claiming how 'badass' and superior you are...and well, I'm just not impressed...
Are you smoking something? I never claimed anything about myself aside from my apathy towards what GW declares as badass.

[Lord Azaghul]

Yes, "according to GW". Not according to me. They aren't badass. The average Imperial Guardsman is far more badass than any Space Marine ever could be.


Are you smoking something? I never claimed anything about myself aside from my apathy towards what GW declares as badass.

You're still wrong on the SM thing - there really since any way for you win that argument: the fluff authority says SM are the best, you saying 'huh-uh' does even add up you your opinion of gw!

Alright, without trying to pick a fight (but its probably too late for that):

Did you even read your own post? You sound like a whiney little kid, trying to be all huffy, fully of one upmanship, and self superiority ( 'I know better the GW' tone) ...seriously...anonimity of the internet and all, half the time when you start posting in a thread I just stop reading the thread.

We all KNOW that unless GW declared the game the to be, for all, and end of time to be about sisters you're going to whine about it...it gets old sister.

And we all KNOW that any thread your in you're just going to argue just to argue.

[Melissia]

Did you even read your own post?
I did read my post. More importantly, did you? Certainly doesn't seem like it. I stated, quite simply, that I don't care what GW thinks about its own franchise. It's like Rob Liefeld trying to say he's a great artist. No and also lol.


We all KNOW that unless GW declared the game the to be, for all, and end of time to be about sisters you're going to whine about it...it gets old sister.
That's because you're making assumptions about me that aren't true.

[codiddy]

You're still wrong on the SM thing - there really since any way for you win that argument: the fluff authority says SM are the best, you saying 'huh-uh' does even add up you your opinion of gw!

Alright, without trying to pick a fight (but its probably too late for that):

Did you even read your own post? You sound like a whiney little kid, trying to be all huffy, fully of one upmanship, and self superiority ( 'I know better the GW' tone) ...seriously...anonimity of the internet and all, half the time when you start posting in a thread I just stop reading the thread.

We all KNOW that unless GW declared the game the to be, for all, and end of time to be about sisters you're going to whine about it...it gets old sister.

And we all KNOW that any thread your in you're just going to argue just to argue.


Just do what I do. When you see this image, skip to the next post.

[Melissia]

This forum has an ignore feature. If you dislike my posts that much, then use it. We've gone off topic long enough.

[Lord Azaghul]

Holy crap I turned on the ignore Melissa feature: awesome.:D

[vulkan_tu'shaun]

ok so yea i what people are saying on this thread. first of all though sorry if i short text in here its a habit, an annoying one at that!

ive played a fair few ultramarines players, and apart from the really younger ones, i find that most UM players choose their army for the background. personaly i think this is the best way to go with any 40k army. the guys/girls who go and choose the army for its power are not hobbiests in my opinion.

i play salamanders and have done for the last 5 years. they dont have there own codex, the dont have any of their own things apart from Vulkan Hes'tan. i rarely use him in my battles as 190pts for one guy who can be killed with instant kill!

anyway, in my opinion and in my own thoughts, its not the UM player that are the problem for marine players. i find that its the fact that they are talked about and are given more speacial characters, i feel that C:SM is an ultramarines codex and not one for all chapters without their own dex. i think in the codex there should be an area where you can create your own LEGAL chapter master and let him have a speacial rule out of a list, the same way it works now only with speacial rules.

thats what i think anyway. if you disagree then you disagree but dont be hateful.

[Melissia]

So, back on topic...


I think that all of the anti UM whining is like nerd-penis-envy. And this is like condescending arrogance. There's no penis envy in saying "that's not cool no matter how much you try and push it in our faces". It's a subjective matter of opinion yes, but that's not penis envy.
[...]
Royal blue and gold armor it's ultramarine and yellow, which is lame. Royal blue and gold is much better than the UM color scheme.
[...]
My question is, where is the UM upgrade sprue... The smurfs are the default army, they need no upgrade sprue. The BTs have their own codex, thus why they have it.

Red of course is mine. I wanted to avoid multi-quoting.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Lol, I think some of you take Mel WAY too seriously. And really, she probably just enjoys speaking her mind and being honest - and its not like anyone HAS to read her posts. I dont really see where this attitude of superiority comes from, and if you see that in someones posts its better to politely ask them that rather than assuming your perception of them is right. I think its kinda funny how people getting riled up over someones opinions or continued speaking of them. It's no biggie and it shouldnt stop you enjoying things you like yourself.

[UltramarineFan]

...its ultramarine and yellow...

wrong, its ultramarine and gold, unless you've only ever encountered 6th company ultras


I think most of the "hate" for the Ultramarines is actually more generalized dislike directed at the Space Marines as an army, the Ultramarines themselves just happen to be symbolic of all marines. Personally I love the marines, they were my first army (not Ultramarines, but that's another story) and still one of my largest.



Bingo. I don't hate the Ultramarines (even though I've taken a backhanded swipe at them on occasion), I actually think they have a spiffy color scheme, that their greco-roman theme is pretty cool, and many of their characters are seriously badass. What does piss me off is how hard the GW fluff works to MAKE me like them; they are already cool, but when I am flat out told that they are somehow intrinsically better than any other marine chapter out there, just by dint of being Ultramarines, I start to sense a little bit of "Mary Sue." Are they a great and noble chapter with ancient traditions and a roll of honor a light year long? Hell yes! But any marine chapter is made up of noble and skilled warriors, and any of the first founding chapters can claim histories as long and honored as the Ultramarines. And It's not even that they are the best, I could stomach that, it's the rather crass and unsubtle way that we are just TOLD they are the best.



This is basically the core of what I don't like about the Ultramarines; in addition to the aforementioned points, I can't help but see Guilliman as a bit of an arrogant prick (which doesn't take away from the fact that he was pretty damned good at what he did); he *****ed and moaned when Horus was made Warmaster over him, and he swept in to clean up the mess and hand out orders left and right after several of the oft overlooked legions did the real work for him. The Ultramarines laud their Primarch's virtues and wisdom during and after the Heresy, when the fact of the matter is he was just "virtuous" and "wise" enough to be really far away while his brothers shed blood, sweat, tears, and in some cases lives to hold the line. Basically he got lucky, under different circumstances he and his legion would have been in no better shape to hold the Imperium together than anybody else.

In short, I like the Ultramarines fine, and would certainly not fault any player for using them, but I think they have been handled clumsily. My personal favorite of the original Legions are the Imperial Fists; the simple stoically tenacious adherence to duty that they show speaks more of heroism to me personally than any amount of crowing. I also have come to really love the character of Dorn, especially as we have gotten to know him better, and it always tickled me that he was considered by his brothers to be the foremost tactician among them (even if Guilliman may have actually been a better strategist).



Actually, you are mistaken in this regard, GW has in fact declared Chuck Norris' badassery, they just happen to call him "The Emperor" :D

Also wrong, the ultramarines weren't involved in most of the fighting because Horus was pissing himself with worry that Roboute might mess up his grand plan with his awesome strategic badassness, thats why he sent him as far south as possible to fight (and Horus hoped to be destroyed by) a mega Word Bearers fleet.
Also with the largest legion around Guilliman had every right to be giving orders left and right, in terms of direct control of space marines he had the most power. And like you said it was him with his ultramarines that stopped the Imperium falling apart after the Horus Heresy anyway. As far as the Imperial Fists go, a good commander should know when he cant win a fight, the fists have lost men more than once because of their stubborness.

[Melissia]

I'm going by the Battle For Macragge boxset's instructions. The color they ask you to use isn't gold by my standards. It's just yellow.

[UltramarineFan]

I'm going by the Battle For Macragge boxset's instructions. The color they ask you to use isn't gold by my standards. It's just yellow.

Meh, I cant help that, its meant to be gold for the second company, white 1st, red 3rd, green 4th, black 5th, yellow 6th, purple 7th, grey 8th, blue 9th

[eldargal]

Actually in the old Codex: Ultramarines it ws yellow not gold, I think they changed it 'cos yellow is a pain to paint for most people and particularly nublets to the hobby.

[MC Tic Tac]

Actually in the old Codex: Ultramarines it ws yellow not gold, I think they changed it 'cos yellow is a pain to paint for most people and particularly nublets to the hobby.

Yes because GW's metalics are soooooooo good :p

2nd Company is yellow it was good enough in RT, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edtions.

[eldargal]

Well, their metallics might not be the best but even an idiot can apply a coat of shining gold over chaos black, not so much with any of the yellows.

[MC Tic Tac]

True, dosen't bother my army mind you as I'm doing the 1st Company at the Battle of Maccrage so as long as they don't make white = silver.........

[therealjohnny5]

Lol, I think some of you take Mel WAY too seriously. And really, she probably just enjoys speaking her mind and being honest - and its not like anyone HAS to read her posts. I dont really see where this attitude of superiority comes from, and if you see that in someones posts its better to politely ask them that rather than assuming your perception of them is right. I think its kinda funny how people getting riled up over someones opinions or continued speaking of them. It's no biggie and it shouldnt stop you enjoying things you like yourself.

Agreed, civility should be the standard and not the exception. We participate in a forum of individuals with similar interests in a hobby. It's perfectly acceptable for us to disagree and debate our opinions, but we need to do it with respect of the others opinions even if we think it's wrong. and if it becomes an issues we always have the option to ignore them, this is the web after all. Personally i feel like Mel, as do most people here, does a pretty good job of maintaining civility while not being afraid to express herself.

and again i think the anti UM vibe comes primarily from their being used as a chapter to represent the ideal. i equate it to the Empire in WHFB back when i played in 4th ed. they were everywhere and less appealing bc of it. As others have mentioned, the 5th ed Codex gave a lot of space to the UM's, now while i don't think most chapters need their own codex as they are simply codex chapters, the percentage of unique characters as well as the fluff content and majority of models\illustrations represented were all UM as was the cover.

It just makes a statement about a companies preferences. And thats perfectly fine. While the fluff may say that the UM's may be awesome, in general as per game rules they don't really translate that well on table top. Some newer codices may be coming closer to the fluff marine, it still hasn't happened and lets face it they'd be way off on appropriate cost. however, it is a game so to some degree we accept the discrepancies (like scale, lol). That all being said, to me it's perfectly fine to feel like the UM's are not as awesome as fluff makes them out to be. and ultimately what one person thinks is ultimately badass has to do with their unique value system. For instance, some people may prefer a paladin like-honor bound-goes by the rules-supreme killing machine, while others may feel that a humble-defiant against all odds-nothing special-guardsman is the shiznit instead bc of their valor. and each are equally cool seeing as we are talking about a game, albeit one with many layers of fluff.

[UltramarineFan]

Yes because GW's metalics are soooooooo good :p

2nd Company is yellow it was good enough in RT, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edtions.

Its gold in 4th ed as well as 5th, I quote from the painting guide that came in it; '...guide to painting the Space Marines of the Ultramarines 2nd Company' then there is a line comming from the shoulder guard trim and the words at the end of that line are 'GOLD TRIM'. I think its pretty conclusive what the colour is.

What is it with people? the 2nd company is gold trim, ok? yellow belongs to the 6th company shoulder pads and nowhere else. End of.

[MC Tic Tac]

Its gold in 4th ed as well as 5th, I quote from the painting guide that came in it; '...guide to painting the Space Marines of the Ultramarines 2nd Company' then there is a line comming from the shoulder guard trim and the words at the end of that line are 'GOLD TRIM'. I think its pretty conclusive what the colour is.

What is it with people? the 2nd company is gold trim, ok? yellow belongs to the 6th company shoulder pads and nowhere else. End of.



6th Company is Orange........ (even in the 5th edtion codex)

[Kahoolin]

Riveting as this discussion on shoulder pad trim is :p, I just want to remind everyone that the point of this thread was not to discuss why people don't like the Ultramarines as an army (I believe there already is a thread like that), but to bring up that Ultramarines players are people too, and many of them do not fit the stereotype of power-mad 10 year old noobs.

We're trying to reduce online prejudice here people, not get into another interminable debate about . . . oh you know what, who cares? This discussion results in them deciding it's orange. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=92326) :D

[Melissia]

UltramarineFan: GW's own painting instructions says you're wrong :P While I sold off all the models, I still have some of the basic starting stuff from that kit (the dice, scatter dice, etc), including the booklet.

[sicarius2424]

me and my best freind are no vets by any means of the word but we both play UM. i actually started the notion of building second company before the 5th edition codex came out then it came out and the idea stuck. which eventually got my friend stuck on it too, so it's bit of a race to see who builds it first. but yeah i'm thinking of starting some small tiny 500 pt. armies of other chapters but i don't plan on ever useing other sm armies that have codexs with my ultramarines expecially taking my UM and useing another codex and calling then some thing they are not. but i really don't get why people knock them about os much all i can really come up with is that they are jealous that they are the face of the game and they always are one of the first of the codex releases. it really dosen't matter wether you have a new codex or not it may be really nice but you can win with any and every codex and a bit of luck with rolling some thing i don't have

(exhibit A: i had a enemy sm tac sergeant out in the open we were playing kill points, he already had 2 on my and i had 1 on him i shot a rihno, a land raider crusader that moved at combat speed, sternguard squad with missle launcher, yes i did shoot krak, and the sergeant took all the hits soaked up every single one of them and wasa still on the board because it was the last turn! no if thats not bad rolling i don't know what is!) and i loaned all his men to him so he could play! so the sergeant was mine!

[sicarius2424]

All i have to say is

" COURAGE AND HONOUR "

well said }:)

cryl yes thats what i might plan on doing myself it can help when you can get used to all the styles when you want to do something similar to 40k
(goes up to US president hey do we have any armour that is made of layers of metal and increases the amout you can lift and allow you to fight in airless or bihazard areas, and a gun that fires .75 caliber bolts that explode when they hit and eneter solid mass? pres.- um... let me get back to you on that)

sad part is i've asked military personel roughly how big would a .75 caliber shell be and i've never got an asnwer to date :(

[eldargal]

I just checked, the 1998 C:SM has yellow, the 2004 C:SM has gold. I think the gold is prettier, personally, but its relatively new.

[Melissia]

.75 caliber is around the level of a 12 gauge slug IIRC.

[gorepants]

sad part is i've asked military personel roughly how big would a .75 caliber shell be and i've never got an asnwer to date :(

sad that they don't know, or that you can't find it out? .75" = 19mm

nearest bullets we have are .700 Nitro Express (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.700_Nitro_Express) and the .950 JDJ (http://www.gunslot.com/pictures/950-jdj-biggest-rifle-bullet-planet)

[Nabterayl]

sad part is i've asked military personel roughly how big would a .75 caliber shell be and i've never got an asnwer to date :(
Part of the problem is that you aren't asking a complete question. A .75 caliber round is 0.75 inches in diameter, by definition, but that doesn't tell you anything about how long/tall the round is.

In common usage we refer to rounds by diameter because there is usually only one round of that diameter in common usage. When somebody speaks of 9mm ammunition, for instance, the overwhelming majority of the time they are referring to the 9x19mm Parabellum round. However, there are many other rounds in the world that have a 9mm diameter (some examples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_mm_caliber)). Saying 9mm does not actually describe a specific object; we fill in the necessary information from context.

In the case of a fictional round like a .75 caliber bolt, that's a lot harder to do. How long/tall is a bolt? Fluff never says, as far as I know. All we know about a .75 caliber bolt is that it's .75 inches in diameter, because that's what .75 caliber means. A round that is 0.75"x0.5" and a round that is 0.75"x2.0" are both ".75 caliber," despite the fact that one is four times as large as the other.

[codiddy]

Regarding the whole color debate, Pg 17 of my codex lists Yellow/Gold as the 2nd Company. So I guess everybody is right. Oh and to the guy doing first company, it lists White/Silver. :)

[UltramarineFan]

UltramarineFan: GW's own painting instructions says you're wrong :P While I sold off all the models, I still have some of the basic starting stuff from that kit (the dice, scatter dice, etc), including the booklet.

Ye and GW's own codex says I'm right :p I have the booklet too, I quote 'Paint the shoulder pad edging and chest eagle with Shining Gold paint.' You're wrong, give up already.

[Melissia]

No, I assure you that the color it asks you to use is not gold :P Least not by my definition. I have my first model right here, the only Marine model I own. That ain't gold on its trim... it's some ugly little yellow color, and I had nothing except the paints from the macragge set way back then.

[UltramarineFan]

No, I assure you that the color it asks you to use is not gold :P Least not by my definition. I have my first model right here, the only Marine model I own. That ain't gold on its trim... it's some ugly little yellow color, and I had nothing except the paints from the macragge set way back then.

I concede that the set didnt give you a gold paint but I insist upon the fact that it tells you to paint it gold, read the stupid booklet, it doesnt matter what paints they give you, they say to paint it gold and therefore it is meant to be gold.

[Melissia]

Sorry kid, it's not gold, therefor it's not gold :P

[UltramarineFan]

Sorry kid, it's not gold, therefor it's not gold :P

Sorry girl, it says gold, therefore it is gold :P

[Lord Azaghul]

FYI - per the C:SM. Page 21. Heraldric colors of the 2nd Ultramarine chapter are: gold/yellow. :)

[codiddy]

FYI - per the C:SM. Page 21. Heraldric colors of the 2nd Ultramarine chapter are: gold/yellow. :)
Don't bother. I already pointed this out but everyone is content to just keep arguing

[Lord Azaghul]

Yeah, I know...and I'm only reading half the conversation...

Besides, my SM are being painted crimson fist anyway!:D

[Melissia]

And my SM are... oh wait I don't have any, I play cool armies instead.

[/badumkshh]

[therealjohnny5]

hahahaah!!!

[BlackKnight15624]

In medieval heraldry, the color gold was often depicted on clothing as the color yellow, due to the fact that gold was impossible to weave in numbers. Thus, the de facto color for heraldry incorporating gold became yellow because, well, it was cheaper. Same with Silver/White.

The Ultramarines color scheme, strictly speaking, is sort of backwards from that, as it is based off of flat colors instead of metallics. The 2nd Company is Yellow, but is often depicted as Gold (both because it is more regal, but also because Gold is easier to paint over the modern undercoat of Black, rather than Yellow which was used back in the 90's over the then-undercoat of White).

Thus, the Yellow/Gold are interchangeable. Paint what you like- they're your armies.

Heck, in the 5th edition codex (p.21), they give you the option of flat or metallic colors for most of the companies.

Hope this helps.

[oni]

I play Ultramarines and am proud of it. :cool:

[BlackKnight15624]

I play Ultramarines and am proud of it. :cool:

Amen.

[Grabula]

Besides, my SM are being painted crimson fist anyway

Pedro Kantor for the win!!

Me too...I like Vanilla marines. I'm a long time Blood Angels player who just recently got into so-called vanilla marines for a change of pace. Even with new BA codex coming out I'm more excited to get a fuly painted Crimson Fist army on the table than anything else.

[Lord Azaghul]

Pedro Kantor for the win!!

Me too...I like Vanilla marines. I'm a long time Blood Angels player who just recently got into so-called vanilla marines for a change of pace. Even with new BA codex coming out I'm more excited to get a fuly painted Crimson Fist army on the table than anything else.


Its kind of amazing: I really like the fluff of this army quite a bit - normally I ignore GW fluff, create my own and my paint scheme...but no, I actually want Crimson Fist!

On the Ultramarine note thingy: 3 weeks ago we had a doubles tourney at my FLGS, about 40 guys showed up..how many SM? I didn't see a single true SM, not one, tons of Eldar, Tau, IG, Orks, Nids, and a couple o' SW, but not a single codex marines army. Even the last couple weeks of game night, lots of Tua, Nids, Orks and Elder...and only 1 BA player! Its hilarious!

[Cyberscape7]

it must be noted that ultramarines only have one model that makes them uncool. Calgar. Honestly other than him the ultramarines are still a pretty cool chapter. i would also like to point out that I have no other dexes only original SM.

[Shagrath]

I played shooty ultras all of 4th edition. The hate of the ultramarines in my mind stems from the amount of support for the chapter in comparison to others over time. This was only made worse when the marines 5th edition codex cames out (very shortly after the 4th edition one, with its Matt Ward-esque uber-fluff.)

I think we hobbyists will always find something new to whine about in any case.When the new guard codex came out people were genuinely mad about the punisher. I distinctly remember 20+ people on warseer whining about how blue the new space wolves were when the dex came out, then thunderwolves became real and that never really stopped. Right now a vast amount of people are qqing over the ba dex without even having played it, and nary a conversation goes by without someone mentioning the phrase nipple armor.

I believe Yahtzee Crawshaw had it right when he said "fans are whiny complaining dip****s with nothing better to do".

[Melissia]

Most people who whine about the punisher whine about the fact that it sucks *** rather than its rate of fire or whatever.

[Shagrath]

That was before it came out when people genuinely thought it was going to be op :rolleyes:

[Melissia]

I don't really consider people *****ing aobut something BEFORE it comes out to be legitimate no matter what their argument is... maybe if it's some fluff oriented complaint about a change that was made or something, but balance issues cannot be decided with a quick glance.

[Shagrath]

I just get tired of it in general...Magic the gatherings fanbase is worse though in any case...

[therealjohnny5]

oh god that's the truth...

[Lord Azaghul]

Hilarity of Hilarities, all this talk about Ultramarines being gw favorate son is of course subject to whatever flavor of marine they are trying to sell this week...
Direct quote from the GW site on 'getting starting with blood angels' :

The Blood Angels are the noblest and most heroic of all the Space Marine Chapters, a glorious host of super-human warriors that have defended the Imperium of Man for over 10,000 years. Sons of the winged Primarch Sanguinius, the Blood Angels fought alongside their father in the defence of the Emperor's Palace at the height of the Horus Heresy. Their Primarch's death at the hands the traitor Warmaster Horus still haunts the Blood Angels today, manifesting as a flaw in their gene-seed that drives many of their number to madness and death. That they continue to fight to their utmost ability even with this impending doom running through their veins their victories out all the more.

--end quote--

how very 'twilight' :D

[Shagrath]

....What is it with Ward dexes and the phrase "x is the most y space marine chapter?"