Smoke Launchers and Baal Preds

[Duke]

From Bolter and Chainsword:

Original thread link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=195823

" Smoke Launchers on the Baal: The rules for smoke launchers state, that "once per game, after completing its move (no mention of movement PHASE), a vehicle with blabla can trigger blabla..". The Baal is the first vehicle with scout USR and smoke launchers. So the Baal makes its scout move - which is, according to the scout USR, "done exactly as in their movement phase" - then pops smoke, and counts as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase. It cannot, however, shoot its weapons in the same turn in which it popped smoke. See where this leads? The Baal scouts, pops smoke, the BA player's first turn starts, he shoots all of his weapons (because he popped smoke BEFORE his turn), and in the following enemy's turn the vehicle counts as obscured. Not exactly logical, but totally RAW."

SMOKE LAUNCHERS RULE: BRB Pg 62.
- "... Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (It doesn't matter how far it moved)... The Vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save"

SCOUT RULE: BRB Pg 76 "... before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from and enemy."

The Courtroom is yours rules lawyers!

[Duke]

So far on Bolter and Chainsword this is seen as allowed by RAW, I would like to see what the great minds at BoLS can say.

I really don't care about the outcome, I just like these discussions... But it almost does seem like it can do it (which is another power hole in the BA rules... Thanks Matt Ward)

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Powerful, but I concur with the analysis.

EDIT: More powerful, but not actually any more or less logical, than Scout moves being used to zoom into position for turn 1 side shots.

[harrybuttwhisker]

Unless the "game" doesn't start til turn one begins. In which case it can't pop smoke until its first turn and not in the scout phase. I don't know for certain without checking so I'll just through it out as a musing for now.

[lobster-overlord]

This sounds like question 1 for the FAQ.

My thought is this...

Smoke clears at the start of your turn. Thus, if you pop smoke during scout move, then smoke is active if your opponent has turn one phase one, thus the smoke obscures it from shots during their shooting, then your turn one happens, smoke has cleared and you can shoot all you want from your new position.

If you have turn one phase one, then your smoke clears at the start of your turn, thus you can shoot during turn one, but you've lost the effective ness of hte smoke, since it has already cleared by the time your opponent's turn starts.


John M>

[Nabterayl]

lobster-overlord, is that how you would play the game, what you think the rule is intended to be, or what you think the rule currently is?

[Duke]

This sounds like question 1 for the FAQ.

My thought is this...

Smoke clears at the start of your turn. Thus, if you pop smoke during scout move, then smoke is active if your opponent has turn one phase one, thus the smoke obscures it from shots during their shooting, then your turn one happens, smoke has cleared and you can shoot all you want from your new position.

If you have turn one phase one, then your smoke clears at the start of your turn, thus you can shoot during turn one, but you've lost the effective ness of hte smoke, since it has already cleared by the time your opponent's turn starts.


John M>

The smoke rule clearly states that it stays through your opponents next shooting phase... So that line of thought wouldn't work. Though I see what your trying to say.

Duke

[lobster-overlord]

That's how I would play it myself, as I have not encountered the situation yet, since I have not played with the new rules for the Baal.

I definitely see that the RAW clearly allows for you to move, smoke, then start your turn, but I can also see that this may be a situation that GW didn't forsee well enough. Although if they did, and this is the way it is intended, then I just have to say it again.... LICK MY BAALS! :-)

John M>

[therealjohnny5]

Unless the "game" doesn't start til turn one begins. In which case it can't pop smoke until its first turn and not in the scout phase.

I would agree with this bc...


SMOKE LAUNCHERS RULE: BRB Pg 62.
- "... Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them (It doesn't matter how far it moved)... The Vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used smoke launchers, but will count as obscured in the next enemy shooting phase, receiving a 4+ cover save"

SCOUT RULE: BRB Pg 76 "... before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from and enemy."

and i know that this will raise the "well you're taking and action so there for it must be defined as a turn bc there is no defined preliminary turn...blahblahblah" comments however i think that's the key in this discussion.

looking at the scout rule, the USR allows you a unique ability that takes place before the Turn begins, the only action you are allowed to take is a move. it seems that the "exactly as in their movement phase" statement indicates the movement types are available (ala turbo boosting or moving flat out rather than just a 6 in move) though i can see how some may take that to mean "i can pop smoke after i move" but the counter to this comes in that the Scout USR doesn't take place during a turn so i would be interested in any counter perspective to how one may take any action other than the move in a "phase" that takes place before the first turn begins.

For instance hypothetically speaking, it would be similar to proposing to pop smoke if you were able to infiltrate or no bc infiltration wouldn't be considered a technical move?

[DarkLink]

As I see it, the "gains a cover save in the next enemy shooting phase" is undeniable. Additionally, because the scout move is explicitly stated to be exactly like a normal move in every respect except being able to move within 12" of the enemy, you would indeed be capable of using smoke launchers during the scout move.

It seems to me that the logic of the argument is sound.

[GM Rex Nihilo]

Popping smoke in the scout move phase is a no brainer, clearly in the rules and makes sense. Getting to somehow shoot and get the cover save in the same turn is like getting to save your cake for later AND eating it now too. No dice one or the other but not both.

[DarkLink]

Popping smoke in the scout move phase is a no brainer, clearly in the rules and makes sense. Getting to somehow shoot and get the cover save in the same turn is like getting to save your cake for later AND eating it now too. No dice one or the other but not both.

No, in this case it's perfectly legal. There is nothing that says you cannot ever fire your weapons and get a cover save from smoke. You usually can't, but in this specific case it appears to be perfectly legal.

[Nabterayl]

Can I make a request? When posting in threads like these, can people please clearly state whether they're saying what they think the rule should be, what they think the rule is, or what they think the rule is trying to be?

One of the things I like about this board is that people are generally grown-up enough to be able to distinguish among the three. Particularly in a case like this, where the OP specifically asked us to dissect the rule, rather than sound off about whether we think our conclusion is hax.

To give an example using Rex Nihilo's last post, just saying "one or the other but not both" could mean any of:
The rules as written require you to pick one or the other and prohibit you from picking both.
The rules as written don't require you to pick one or the other and prohibit you from picking both, but they're clearly trying to say that (c.f. <insert reason why that's clear>), so we should treat the rules as written as if they require you to pick one or the other and prohibit you from picking both.
The rules as written should require you to pick one or the other and prohibit you from picking both.
Not ragging on you, Rex Nihilo, just using your post as an example.

[Duke]

Good point Nab.

I think that the RAW supports allowing Baal Preds to make a scout move and trigger the smoke after making the move (In the scout phase).

Then only room I see for argument is:
- In the smoke rules it mentions "May not fire weapons in the same turn it used the launchers." Obviously this means you can't shoot at the same time. But does the "turn," imply that the smoke must be used on turns 1-7? But that is the only room for argument that I can see.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

@Duke:

I think you could certainly make a colorable argument that the rules are trying to say that you can only use smoke launchers during a normal turn (I say "normal turn" as opposed to "Turn 1-7" because not all games have to end on Turn 7).

That said, I don't think that's what the rules do say. We may question why they said "turn" instead of "the Shooting Phase immediately subsequent to the Movement Phase in which it triggered the launchers," but "turn" does not actually logically or grammatically limit when the launchers may be used. So from a strictly analytical standpoint I still think the RAW is that you can trigger your smoke launchers at the end of a Scout move, which would not prevent you from shooting on Turn 1.

@harry:

I think it's a reasonable question to ask when the "game" starts (as smoke launchers may only be used once per "game"). Certainly page 86 implies that the game begins after both players "Deploy Forces." Personally, I don't think it's clear from this that a Scout move is outside the "game" for the following reasons:

Every item on the ORGANISING A BATTLE sidebar has a level 2 heading in the rulebook except for item 5, "Start the game!" This implies that item 5 is simply a way of saying that the organization part of the game is finished after step 4, and not a distinct concept.
Even if we conceded for the sake of argument that "Start the game!" was a distinct concept in the rules, it's not clear that "once per game" would refer to that particular concept (in a similar way, Scout moves fall under the Deploy Forces rules concept, but are not "deployment").

[SeattleDV8]

This is simular to the Turbo boosting rules.
If a unit turbo boosted it gets a 3+ cover save in the enemys next shooting phase.
If you are going first does this mean you can turbo boost in the scout move , make a normal move in your first turn and still get the cover save?
Although it seems so I would tend to disallow it as it bends the rules to the silly side..
If someone pushed it I would not have a strong aurgment against it.

[DarkLink]

I think it's a reasonable question to ask when the "game" starts (as smoke launchers may only be used once per "game").

Lol, that'd be horrible if you could smoke while scouting, still shoot, and still be able to use smoke later in the game. That thought just cracked me up.


This is simular to the Turbo boosting rules.
If a unit turbo boosted it gets a 3+ cover save in the enemys next shooting phase.
If you are going first does this mean you can turbo boost in the scout move , make a normal move in your first turn and still get the cover save?
Although it seems so I would tend to disallow it as it bends the rules to the silly side..
If someone pushed it I would not have a strong aurgment against it.

I remember this argument before from a while ago. I believe we determined that turbo-boosting in the scout move didn't grant an automatic cover save. However, I think the turbo-boosting rules were worded slightly differently than the smoke launcher rules.

[SeattleDV8]

The turbo boost rule is nearly the same, in the following enemy shooting phase, you gain a cover save.
I believe you are thinking of Flat out.
The skimmer moving Flat Out would not get it's cover because it is granted in your last movement phase.

[DarkLink]

Could be. I'm too lazy to look up the rules right now.

Though there is a big difference between exactly the same and almost the same. Sometimes a difference of one or two words can completely change the meaning.

[Duke]

Im going to just post the relevant parts of the Turbo boost rule:

Pg 76. BRB: "... they cannot move move through difficult terrain, shoot, launch assaults or execute any other voluntary action in the same turn. In the following enemy shooting phase, the bike benefits from a 3+ cover save..."

So there it is, but forgive my ignorance because I don't see the connection between Smoke and Turbo boosting that you are making, and I would like to because I think it could be an interesting point.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Duke

[abadon58]

My understanding is this scout moves are pre game and part of the deployment setup so I would suggest no smoke. On a logical side if in a normal move you can pop smoke and not shoot it would be because you cannot see a taget due to smoke. Enemy can shoot at you, or rather the plume of smoke which would give you the cover save as you cannot be directly targeted.
On another logical note special effects smoke, turbo etc would last untill your next turn so yes you can turbo bikes but then start your turn prev inv save now lost and you move normal or turbo again.

[weeble1000]

I have to agree that the RAW seem to allow smoke launchers to be used in the scout move. If that's the case, the next enemy shooting phase wording would allow the vehicle to benefit from it's cover save regardless of what it does during the first player turn.

This isn't entirely relevant but I would like to draw attention to GW's FAQ regarding Counter-attack and Furious Charge. Much of this discussion seems to hinge on the "exactly as in their movement phase" language of the Scout USR. In the case of similar language in the Counter-attack USR, GW interpreted it to mean that the unit had not, in fact, "assaulted." Now the Counter-attack language was qualified, making the comparison inexact, but I thought it bore mentioning nonetheless.

Most of the rules problems like this that have been popping up lately have been the result of some new intersection of rules. Clearly, the BRB was not written with Scout vehicles equipped with Smoke Launchers in mind. The language in these rules leaves a big hole because they weren't written with this problem in mind. Now, the BA codex also didn't address this issue, which is sloppy but not unexpected.

This leaves players with a conundrum. Do you go with the RAW which seem to indicate that using smoke launchers during a scout move is perfectly appropriate or do you try to figure out what the rules are intended to mean and play it that way. I think both options are perfectly viable but it introduces an element of doubt that could easily have been avoided.

That being said, I think the Scout USR was written to allow movement only. Similarly, I think the Smoke Launcher rules were written with the intention that the wargear would only be used on a player's "normal" turn because, inevitably, the opposing player would have the next turn in that situation. The imprecise wording of the rules makes sense in this context. Why would the rule need to be more specific if there was no way for the same player to take a turn immediately following the turn in which Smoke Launchers were used? Indeed, the "next enemy shooting phase" language seems to have been intended to specify that the cover bonus applies specifically to the opposing player's subsequent shooting phase, not the same player's shooting phase immediately following his/her movement phase and not any of the potentially additional shooting phases the opposing player might take after the phase immediately following the player turn in which Smoke Launchers were used.

These rules have never been questioned before because no commonly-used vehicle could use Smoke Launchers in any situation other than a player turn that would be immediately followed by the opposing player's turn. Now the BA codex has potentially allowed a situation that is, quite literally I think, not covered by the rules, at least not in the sense that the rules were written with this situation in mind. Since the BA codex does not offer any additional rules to explain this odd situation I'm personally inclined to argue that Smoke Launchers cannot be used during a Scout move because the writers of the rules themselves never imagined that this was possible.

[DarkLink]

On a logical side if in a normal move you can pop smoke and not shoot it would be because you cannot see a taget due to smoke.

Alas, but real life logic has absolutely nothing to do with the rules of the game at all.

In fact, if the rules reflected real life you could move predators 24" per turn and fire all of its weapons at different targets. Anyone who's seen how fast modern tanks are, even on extremely rough terrain, and how accurately they can shoot while moving at full speed over said terrain knows that 40k's vehicle rules are horrible representations of real life.

[Mobious]

I guess I will be the first to disagree and support it with rules. ;)

". . . before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase . . ." -pg. 76

"Once per game, after completing its move, a vehicle with smoke launchers can trigger them." -pg. 62

While it might seem you can make the scout move and pop smoke because you normally can after moving, the scout rule does not allow you to use smoke. It just allows you to make a "normal move", and triggering smoke launchers is not part of a normal move. It is simply something you can do after completing your move.

I wish there was something else vehicles do in the movement phase that is not part of their actual move, so that I could compare this to something.

I might be wrong here, but I do not think I am. The scout move is simply that, a scout move. It does not allow you to do anything else.

What do you think?

[yergerjo]

By RAW I agree with Mobius. Move during the scout phase, that is all.

That being said, as it has become an accepted practice for bikes to turbo boost during the scout phase and gain a cover save in the subsequent shooting phase (if they went second, if they went first then there is no cover effect). I would assume the purpose of this would be since the BA are supposed to be "fast" they could Scout and then use smoke launchers to gain a cover save (if they went second), but once they had the opportunity to act normally they would lose the benefit.