Armored Battlegroup: Would you play against it?

[Paul]

Hello everyone!

I'm the local treadhead here, and I usually run a 9-Leman Russ tank list from the standard Imperial Guard codex. However, I was running basic maintenance and repainting my models, and I came across an old ruleset that I had stored:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/IA1update28AUG.pdf

It's the Armored Battlegroup list from the last few pages of Imperial Armor: Volume 1 updated to match up with the new Imperial Guard codex.

My current 2000 point list from this includes 10 tanks (one more than the normal IG army) but NOT in squadrons. It also has only one scoring troops choice.

I know it's not tournament legal, but I was wondering if it would be too overkill for friendly games. I would enjoy playing it, and I try to be fluffy (regiment has it's own name and background courtesy of myself) but I don't want to not have opponents.

So, who here would play it and if you wouldn't, why wouldn't you?

[Valkerie]

As a pick up game, I would have to say no. My standard lists just don't have enough AT to handle that many tanks. And that many templates would play hell with just about any army.

On the other hand, if it were a prearranged game, and I knew you were taking that many tanks, I could come up with a list that would have a chance against it.

I guess what I'm saying is, let your opponent know ahead of time, so they can prepare for a tank company. In fact, it might be interesting to see a tank company against a vehicle heavy Marine force. Land Raiders and drop pods with lots of melta would certainly be fair, IMHO.

[the smeer]

In June the supplement spearhead will be launched, dealing with armoured assault in a 40k seting.
This should give you a means to depoly your tanks in a way that is clear and acceptable for anyone.

[Col.Gravis]

I'd certainly give it a go, it's certainly nasty with plenty of Russ, but the low Scoring unit count means it's at a serious disadvantage in 2/3 of the standard game types.

However as illustrated there are plenty who are less keen, the moral is have the option to field both types of list in a pick up game and see which your opponent prefers, the same is true of any such variant FW or even home grown list.

[pgarfunkle]

I'd have a go against it, I may ask to proxy some dev squads but otherwise sounds like a laugh. I used to play a friend back in 3rd who had an armoured company that was always entertaining to play against.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Id challenge that list if i knew in advance, i play a SoB army but i can see lots of possibilities to take it to your tanks.
Would be hell to survive but hey thats half the challenge :p

[Xas]

It depends. I have nothing against much tanks but some of the ace-skills you can buy for your tanks in that list are just OP.

20 or what points and your leman russ can fire its main cannon twice for instance.


other than that I see nothing problematic with the armored company. especially as in normal pointed games you will not bring that much more tanks, are limited in 2/3 of the missions and your tanks shell out more killpoints in the other 1/3 of missions (each one running around solo vs 3 big squadrons).

[Atrotos]

I play against AB all the time and I have to say it's a mean list but not much worse than the IG codex. A balanced IG army is better suited to taking on all comers. AB is certainly good at dealing with conventional mixed forces but my Airborne IG, my buddy's Dark Eldar and Land Raider Heavy Space Wolves have proven that AB is not unbeatable it's just a different challenge.

EDIT: If you want more people to accept the list don't play with 10 tanks (even though you could field that many anyway). Take 6-7 tanks unsquadroned with a sprinkling of Ace Skills and maybe Schfeer (because he's awesome). Convince people it's not all that different because it isn't.

[Lord Azaghul]

actually I woudl want to try and field it!

I'd love to scratch build some tarantulas!

[therealjohnny5]

i'd throwdown...it just depends on the guys in your local area..

[Sanguinary Dan]

The IA list is actually playable. Unfortunately that abomination printed in White Dwarf turned a lot of people against the concept.

The thing to remember is that if you play it like an armor heavy combined arms force both sides can have a good time. Field nothing but Russ and artillery and you'll do nothing but make sure that guy will never play against another armor company as long as he lives.

[lobster-overlord]

I'd play it, but only if I could field my 3 LRs and 7 Predators against it :-)

John M>

[Renegade]

Dont see any problem with it. check it out with some of the guys you normally play against for objection, and maybe mix up the tanks abit (Russ varients) and give it a go. If I could get my 2000pt list together, I'd go for the chance to kick you mech arse all over the table top.

[Paul]

Well, I definitely mix up the Variants. I've got 3 Vanquishers, 3 Demolishers, 3 Russes, and 1 Exterminator, so I tend to eat other armor for breakfast.

The tanks are not kitted out; I could field six or seven really kitted out tanks with a special character HQ if that makes more sense.

Lastly, I'm glad to hear some of you would play it. It isn't as bad as the old Chapter Approved armored company, which I found rather op.

[crazyredpraetorian]

I'll throw down with you, Paul.......again.

[Maugatar]

Untill the new Rules Nerfed them i would have taken my necron army against them any day:)

[egorene]

I find the AB cool , played some games with it .
BUT infiltrating , outflanking etc.... ruin my day :D
And that little Lysander guy who seems to kill every tank he sees .
A bit exaggerating here , but he is my tanks nemesis number 1 .

[Just_Me]

First, I would play it any day (I have toyed around with fielding my tanks as an AB in fact), it would be fun and different.

Second, one of my pet peeves is this "it's not tournament legal" BS. Any given tournament can make whatever rules they want, and if you go there it presupposes that you agree to conform to those rules. Aside from that you are on your own, 40k has a points system in the first place so that pickup games between ANY given official list will be (mostly) fair. It's true that they sometimes miss and turn out something that is grossly under/overcosted but on the whole it balances out. The simple fact is that you don't need your opponent's permission to field one of the official lists in a pickup game, that is the given assumption in any pickup game. The Forge World Armoured Battlegroup IS an official list, and to say that you need to ask "permission" to use it is just as absurd as saying you need their "permission" to field your Space Marine army because someone might have trouble dealing with all the 3+ saves. You only need "permission" insofar as any game is a mutual agreement between players to play the game fairly within the given rule set. That being said you should show them the courtesy of playing in a sportsmanlike fashion, so taking the AB list just because you know that a given opponent's list will have no chance against it is not in the spirit of the game.

The Armoured Battlegroup IS a list with some very pronounced strengths (namely "lotsa tanks"), but also has some major weaknesses (namely, objective taking). It is powerful, and certainly imposing, but it is NOT invincible, you are putting a lot of faith in a relative handful of units that can potentially be killed by a single shot. Most of all it's a fun and flavorful list, and it should be fun for both players, that is after all the entire point of 40k.

[BlackKnight15624]

I played against my friend's IG Armour Battlegroup list a couple of months back with my balanced Ultramarines Army. I ended up tying with him.

It's a new challenge, I'll admit to that, as I had a mix of weaponry and not just AT. However, the list itself was still balanced- as Just_Me said, we have points costs for a reason.

[Melissia]

Yes, but I'd like advanced warning so that I could build a list that could beat it. Sisters aren't exactly an army designed to take on lots and lots of AV14 tanks, most of their firepower is of course in their rapid fire shooting with bolters and flamers, and taking more than one meltagun per squad (in a mech sisters list anyway) weakens the army's ability to deal with infantry.

[ColCorbane]

I'd play it, with my Armoured Battlegroup. You've just got to love tank battles.

Bring on Spearhead!

[Ugly74]

If you and your tanks are ever down this way ... bring it on! Id probably get my chaotic a$$ handed to me on a plate for the first couple of games ... but Im sure my lists can be adapted..

[Ebsolom Dhaark]

I'd love to play against this list in a dense, urban battlefield with my tricksy Eldar:D

[Paul]

I am proud to say that the Armored Battlegroup has seen a lot of action lately.

I am consciously running a fluffy list, not a hard one, so no crazies like slick loader. But it has been entertaining, and I actually have not won all that many games. Here's the list without upgrades:

Command Vanquisher, lascannon
LRBT
LRBT
Executioner with plasma cannon sponsons
LRBT with heavy bolter sponsons
LRBT with heavy bolter sponsons
LRBT with lascannon
LRBT with lascannon
LRD
LRD

It is exactly ten tanks, a full armored company, at 2000 points. It's the Concordian 1st, and I am too much of a fluffbunny to do anything fancier.

As I've said, it's seen a lot of action and has been fun (for both sides). I think the naysayers should give it a chance, if only because I try to play it by the fluff in various ways (Demolisher squadron linebreaker, for instance) instead of lining up on my board edge and unloading until someone falls over.

[SotonShades]

I've been playing Armoured Battlegroup lists for a while now and I love it, and so far so have all the opponants I've played against.

Whilst a wall of 10 Leman Russes with AV14 sounds horrendous, with the associated Battle/Demolisher Cannons, it's surprising how well most balanced lists are able to deal with them. This is especially true when a smart player uses terrain to get up close and personnal, something tanks don't like too much no matter how many flamers you place arround the hull.

I'm actually taking an AB list to a doubles tournament, and I've only got 750 points to play with. It still means our list has more loud guns and thick armour than anyone else is going to bring, but our combined list has it's weaknesses as well (model count being cheif amoung them) so I don't think anyone will be complaining too much.

[Koppenflak]

I routinely bring IA1 (and it's updated rules) to my local GW and throw down armoured battlegroups. If anyone does have an issue, I just point out the preface of the book which gives the "on-high" ruling that the book is "official" and does not actually need the opponent's permission to field.

This said...

I would never bring an AV14-heavy list on a spur of the moment without having let my opponent know before hand. The book might say it's all official, but it also stresses the point that if you wish to maintain pleasant social ties to your gaming group, you should be courteous about its use.

If I am playing an unannounced battlegroup, then I make sure that it's predominantly based on Armoured Fist squads (the six or so that would be possible) and try to keep the rest of the list balanced to a reasonable level of firepower. Yes, an uber list is all-powerful and quite possible, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

...If you brought an Armoured Battlegroup against me though, I'd let you take as much AV14 as you liked. Then I'd bring as many Vanquishers as I could loaded with a mix of HE and AT rounds (see the ammunition section of the original book, if you have it...) and relish in the Kursk reenactment that we clearly would have going. :D

The book is made - and I quote - to 'enhance the game' and make it more enjoyable. Bottom line: if your opponent isn't enjoying himself, you haven't enhanced the game.

Remember folks - "Nuke Responsibly"!!

[Javin]

I have played against the 10 Russ list twice with my Ultramarines and crushed it twice. The list can do some serious damage but once you shake the vehicles they are useless. You only need to shake the vehicles that have LoS to most of your army. Once you get close, krak grenades and power fists can take out any number of vehicles. If you take meltas you can even do more damage.

[erwos]

I have played against the 10 Russ list twice with my Ultramarines and crushed it twice. The list can do some serious damage but once you shake the vehicles they are useless. You only need to shake the vehicles that have LoS to most of your army. Once you get close, krak grenades and power fists can take out any number of vehicles. If you take meltas you can even do more damage.
I agree. The only lists that the ABG is really brutal against are the ones that absolutely rely on long-range, non-melta shooting to do their armor penetration. Your typical assault army doesn't care whether it's hitting the AV10 on the back of a Chimera or the AV10/11 on the back of a Russ, but some guy spamming autocannons and lascannons for anti-tank is in for a bad day. (Incidentally, the new prevalence of autocannons and missile launchers is a very good reason to switch back to the Leman Russ as a heavy support unit.)

The 10 LR lists are actually at a huge disadvantage because you have to table your opponent in objectives games to win, and it's hard to see how someone would object to one of those (especially if you agreed on playing objectives beforehand). Much, much more worrisome are the lists that actually include armoured fists and can actually compete in those missions.

Of course, this assumes no slick loader usage. Someone with a list built around spamming slick loader (slick loader on a bunch of naked vehicles), well, that's something a reasonable person might object to.