Why folks hate the Stormcast Eternals...

[Ray Rivers]

As you all can tell by my post count, I am very new to this forum. The reason being is that I am for the most part a historical gamer and 40K and Warhammer are just not my thing.

That all changed with the release of Age of Sigmar and the reason is because I love the new Stormcast Eternals.

Now I know most folks must think I'm totally out of my mind. I've read all kinds of stuff about how OTT these minis are, how they are actually fantasy space marines, etc. etc., and none of that makes any sense to me.

I have been in this hobby for nearly 40 years and have never bought a single Warhammer miniature. So I have been pondering why do I like the Stormcast and everybody else apparently hate them? I think I understand why now.

When GW released the Age of Sigmar I was looking for a new project. I looked very hard at the miniatures first because I want quality, not crap. I also really liked their look so I voted with my wallet.

Now lets take a fresh look at the Stormcast Eternals. I can certainly do so because I am not influenced by either 40K or Fantasy/Warhammer.

Here is what I saw: A miniature with some very prominent features which are: a muscled cuirass with leather skirting, large greaves and a large roman-ish shield.

Hell... that isn't a fantasy space marine... it's a Greek hoplite with a roman shield!

http://cdn.simplesite.com/i/05/33/285415631118414597/i285415639331980839._szw270h3500_.jpg

Now I started understanding why folks hate this look. It is not based on a medieval aesthetic that, I believe, underlies pretty much ALL fantasy miniatures.

In fact the Stormcast Eternals is based on a Greco-Roman aesthetic and if you don't believe that, all you have to do is look at the Prosecutors with Javelins. The Prosecutors are the "cavalry" of the Stormcast and they like their ancient predecessors carry a javelin and small round shield.

So there we have it. GW has turned fantasy on it's head. They introduced a new faction and instead of using the age old (and rather boring to me) medieval basis which pretty much EVERY fantasy game uses, replaced it with a Greco-Roman one.

And that is why folks can't handle the situation. They are sooo verrrry caught up with the Fantasy = Medieval look, they just can't handle anything different.

I personally love it, which is pretty normal for me as I love ancient Greeks and Romans and I think folks who are on the fence need to try to take another look at these minis and see them for what they are.

Open your minds folks...

[Mr Mystery]

Love the models.

Love the background.

Kind of scared of their battlefield prowess, but yet to meet a decent sized force (new army syndrome).

However, I am keeping up with the background, having read all there is so far. And indeed listened (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?57610-Age-of-Sigmar-background-round-up)

As a result, I'm a little burnt out on them at the moment. As with anything, too much in a short space of time, and you tire of the flavour.

I'm hoping we have some other races covered in the books soon - a change is as good as a rest overall.

[Ray Rivers]

Kind of scared of their battlefield prowess, but yet to meet a decent sized force (new army syndrome).


Which is pretty fitting, I should think.

Rome was a great empire and not much stood in it's way.

When I am painting my Stormcast I think about the Khorne "barbarians" that will come soon there after... ;)

[nsc]

People got really mad at me when I compared them to a Greek Hoplite :P they seemed to think they were centurion, which is balderdash :D


I think a lot of the anti-stormcast is a hold over from people who are mad at the way GW handled the switch to age of sigmar and also those who are mad that their "balanced" square based armies don't just roll over un-optimized armies.

The sigmarines are the face of AoS, which means anyone who hates AoS will try and sling mud at the face. Coke talks about Coke in their ads, Pepsi talks about Coke in their ads, it's good to be Coke :P

[Mr Mystery]

Also for the Roman-Greco thing - they're described as forming shield walls etc. No such mention for the hordes of Khorne, who just sort of come at you en-masse.

At least so far.

But to make it clear - I've got nothing against the Stormcast Eternals. I'm just a bit burned out on reading about them (this is what happens when you agree to offer a loose guide to every story, necessitating that you read every story!)

[Ray Rivers]

People got really mad at me when I compared them to a Greek Hoplite :P they seemed to think they were centurion, which is balderdash :D


I think a lot of the anti-stormcast is a hold over from people who are mad at the way GW handled the switch to age of sigmar and also those who are mad that their "balanced" square based armies don't just roll over un-optimized armies.

The sigmarines are the face of AoS, which means anyone who hates AoS will try and sling mud at the face. Coke talks about Coke in their ads, Pepsi talks about Coke in their ads, it's good to be Coke :P

To be quite honest, I don't really care if folks are mad at GW... GW has had folks mad at them for ions... same old, same old.

What matters to me is that they have made a major break in their gaming philosophy away from mass battles and an obvious long term commitment (the plastic models are a big giveaway) to a fantasy skirmish game with a difference. It's obvious that there are lots of folks who are invested in "medieval" fantasy, but geez... isn't that getting a bit old?

- - - Updated - - -


Also for the Roman-Greco thing - they're described as forming shield walls etc. No such mention for the hordes of Khorne, who just sort of come at you en-masse.

Exactly.

The Stormcast are the Romans and Khorne are the barbarians.

Fantastic!

[Morgrim]

I'm not liking them because they're monotonous. I liked the aesthetic of the Stormcast at first, but now time has gone on and with very few exceptions it all seems to be the exact same man in the exact same armour in different poses. Which is kind of boring. Where is the cool stuff like that demidragon the starter started with? Why do they all have the same head? To be they feel dull because it feels like they've spent several months showing me a single unit, stretched out to cover the space.

(I'm not fond of space marines for similar reasons, but at least with them I can tell the models apart.)

[Kirsten]

yeah I kind of agree on that front, it does feel like the same thing being released all the time. I am far more interested to see what happens with the old races personally, particularly the humans.

[YorkNecromancer]

So there we have it. GW has turned fantasy on it's head. They introduced a new faction and instead of using the age old (and rather boring to me) medieval basis which pretty much EVERY fantasy game uses, replaced it with a Greco-Roman one.

The fact that there is a Standard Fantasy Setting is one of the most despicable things about geek/nerd culture to me. Like, the whole point of fantasy is that anything is functionally possible.

It's why, for example, something like 'Perdido Street Station' will always be more interesting to me than anything with Standard Fantasy tropes in. I'd much rather have stories about men falling in love with women who have cockroaches for a head than anything to do with how all Dwarves are basically hardy Yorkshiremen who like axes, beer and mining.

I like the Stormcast look; it's really strong, and really different to what's out there at the moment. Say what you like about GW (and everyone does) but at least their stuff is never generic; there's always a really strong, clear aesthetic to everything they do.

I'd just like to see some female Stormcast is all, because, hey, it's me and that's pretty much all I want from every army it makes sense for.

[Ray Rivers]

I'm okay with that... armies tend to wear the same gear.

But yea, some different cool minis would be welcomed, but I think we have just been exposed to the core troops and heros, and stuff like that will come later... with luck.

[Cutter]

"Why folks hate the Stormcast Eternals..."

Is it because, and I'm just spit-balling here, they're so mind-crushingly dull?

[Path Walker]

You can say what you will about Stormcast Eternals but the souls of heroes painfully remade over hundreds of years in a forge of Gods into a warrior clad in golden armour, wielding hammers made of lightning, and flying with wings made of pure light is not dull in the slightest.

[Morgrim]

I think the marvel is that GW took something cool like that and made it dull by turning them into the clone army.

[Ray Rivers]

I'd just like to see some female Stormcast is all, because, hey, it's me and that's pretty much all I want from every army it makes sense for.

Well, if we look at ancient history and myth, women play a prominent role. From the Gods (Athena, for example) to the Amazons there is plenty of scope for getting them into the game and I am pretty darn sure we will see them.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think part of the problem was more how they released the models. It felt like they really stretched it out too thinly. The character model only weeks especially slowed things down. I think at least some people would of kept the excitement up if they hadn't stretched it too thin. I think they should of compressed the stormcast (and khorne for that matter) into 4 weeks each and used the other 4 weeks to release random kits from some of the other factions to add some variety. I don't think it helped some of the releases were already things we previously already saw from the starter set either.

[benn grimm]

So many reasons...but basically it boils down to context; as the poster boys of the death of WFB and the birth of AOS they carry a lot of baggage for a lot of people right out of the box.

Then there is the aesthetic, which is fine if you love he-man and 300 and things of that nature, but it is incredibly obvious and crass and they do look just like Blood Angels if Blood Angels had lived in the land of make believe and faeries. They all look the same and the ones with wings look sort of awesome until you realise the spectacular ridiculousness of this fat man in heavy armour with wings that look like swords...oh and the hammers, too many hammers...

[Ben_S]

I've read all kinds of stuff about how OTT these minis are, how they are actually fantasy space marines, etc. etc., and none of that makes any sense to me.
...
In fact the Stormcast Eternals is based on a Greco-Roman aesthetic and if you don't believe that, all you have to do is look at the Prosecutors with Javelins.

Agreed that they're Greco-Roman, rather than medieval. But, if you take that aesthetic and apply it to large, super-human warriors with over-sized pauldrons, doesn't the space marine comparison make just a little sense? Go take a look at Sanguinary Guard in particular. (Whether you *like* Space Marines in Fantasy is, of course, a matter of taste. If you do, then fine. But I don't see how you can say that the comparison makes no sense.)

[Erik Setzer]

Open your minds folks...

My mind *is* open. I enjoy historical games as well as fantasy. Your reasoning is *not* why I dislike them, nor is it because I have a "closed" mind.

My issue is that they're designed to be over the top from the ground up, not just the models but also the background. They're too often described as immortal awesome warriors that can beat anyone. They fight, they die, they fight again. They have just one purpose in existing.

And they shouldn't even be able to win. We just established mere months ago that when Chaos wins, it obliterates everything. But suddenly, it can't do that? And then Sigmar has the time to build a secret super-soldier army?

I also don't recall Greek hoplites wielding hammers, or long spears, or guns masquerading as crossbows, or insanely large bows, or generic knight shaped shields, or golden masks designed to look like a face, or riding on wings made of freaking light (which, I'm sorry, is such a juvenile idea that it feels insulting). Oh, or having enormous shoulder pads.

So, yeah, they're not Greek hoplites at all, any more than Blood Angels are, and people aren't hating the Blood Angels for anything more than the shift to make them all Vampire caricatures.

The Stormcasts are all so bloody similar, even the characters look the same as the other guys, which makes it cheap and fast to throw together a new army's design, but makes them feel rather boring as a force, made so much worse by everyone being painted the same. Even Space Marines have differences in unit aesthetic and color scheme.

So you have a whole army of models that look like the same guy cloned over and over but given different armaments, created just to have an army to fight off a threat that doesn't really sound like much of a threat, and they all seem way too similar and almost soulless. It's like they're bloody Clone Troopers.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, if we look at ancient history and myth, women play a prominent role. From the Gods (Athena, for example) to the Amazons there is plenty of scope for getting them into the game and I am pretty darn sure we will see them.

I don't mean this offensively, but honestly given your apparent optimism here... Are you completely new to the GW hobby?

I'm trying to think of females in Warhammer, and, out of the massive amounts of models out there, here's what I'm remembering off the top of my head:

Sisters of Avelorn (sp?) - All-female Elf unit
Witch Elves - Female elf unit, barely clothed, specialize in murder and sex fantasies
Alarielle, Morathi, Wood Elf sisters on Dragon, Khorne female special character - Various named characters, pretty much all Elves (and Morathi had half her chest uncovered, because, you know, women don't need clothing).
Female chest pieces for Elf units
Handful of female Vampires - At one point, there was a line of just female vampires. They used seduction to get their way. Because of course they did.

There was a model for the Tsarina of Kislev, but they drop-kicked Kislev back out of the game almost as soon as it showed up. There was a female Elector Count, and she was one of the only Elector Counts to not have a model.

On the 40K side, there's Sisters of Battle (ho boy...), the Callidus Assassin, and some Eldar torsos. I think there might have been a female Inquisitor at some point, and there was Commissar Corset, which isn't really helping matters.

Now, you might think that sounds like a good bit... but go to GW's website right now and look through the massive piles of figures. Also recognize that the Sisters of Battle have gotten zero love in forever.

GW doesn't really do women in their games. Even where it makes sense, it's shocking to see them actually have a female model. And now we've had them say that you can just pretend there's women in those male designed suits, because why wouldn't women want to look like men in battle? So yeah, don't be too "damn sure" we'll see female models.

(I'm pretty sure this rant is still a lot smaller than one you could get from someone like Eldargal on this topic.)

[Cutter]

You can say what you will about Stormcast Eternals but the souls of heroes painfully remade over hundreds of years in a forge of Gods into a warrior clad in golden armour, wielding hammers made of lightning, and flying with wings made of pure light is not dull in the slightest.

You say toe-may-toe, I say dullsley dullington.

And I field an army of Daleks when the notion strikes me.

They have more character.

Exterminate.

[Mr Mystery]

If we move away from the aesthetic (on account it's entirely subjective), lets instead dig into the background of the Stormcast Eternals.

I think they're rather interesting...

You see, the way I see it, they're what the Chaos Gods could make of their followers, if they showed care and planning in their gifts, rather than not being able to tell invulnerability from the form of an oscillating bollock faced Chicken, or vibrating Bumfaced Goat.

And that's not to say the Chaos Gods are feckless...they just genuinely cannot tell the difference.

But Sigmar? Really quite different approach. He's weighed up and assessed not only the gifts he wants to bestow, but what the human (for so far, they're all humans) form can take in the way of God Bestowed gifts.

This to me is a good foil to Chaos. The chance 'perfect mutation' given up in the name of stability and not seeing a promising follower turn into a blob of tentacles and insanity.

Further than that? It shows Sigmar, and by extension shows his fellow members of the Pantheon to be more of a match for the Dark Gods. This is a big change in Warhammer, where previously the 'good' deities were distant and aloof, possibly because they were trying to avoid direct personal conflict with the Four.

Going forward, I kind of hope each race gets its 'God Touched' forces, which I think we can reasonably predict to be a reflection of their Deities preferences. Think 'Gorkamorka's Extra 'Ard Ladz', and already hinted at Shadowy Elf Daemon things.

Personally I want to see that, because it would be cool, but perhaps not so much entire armies.

[Erik Setzer]

I *might* be tempted to take all these plastic Black Orcs I have (hey, Black Orcs are cool) and convert a bunch of them into Orc versions of Stormcasts, but they'd be something like "Morkkasts" or "Waaaghkasts." And then just use the SC rules for them, but express it like how Orcs would fight (i.e. not arriving in a bolt of thunder, but rather hurled from the "heavens" at their enemy by the hand of Gork/Mork).

Okay, actually, that sounds kind of fun. If there are still any people playing AoS locally, they'd even get a chance to see the battlefield.

[Mr Mystery]

Do eeeeet!

And for the Celestant Prime? MASSIVE BAT WINGED LOONY.

[Ray Rivers]

Agreed that they're Greco-Roman, rather than medieval. But, if you take that aesthetic and apply it to large, super-human warriors with over-sized pauldrons, doesn't the space marine comparison make just a little sense?

Sorry, but I don't see it. The similarity between the two starts and ends with large shoulder armor.

SM have cod pieces, Stormcast have loin cloths and leather skirts. SM have rounded chest armor while the Stormcast have muscled breast plates. SM have helmets with snots while the Stormcast have helmets with crests. Leg armor of the Stormcast is more exaggerated indicative of greaves and the "common soldier" carries a large decorated shield.

I'm not a fan of medieval warfare, which I think is why I never really got into 40K or Warhammer. But the unmistakable Greco-Roman influence of the Stormcast was so strong as to immediately grab my attention.

Even the Khorne Bloodbound give me an ancient vibe with their lack of armor, focus on large hand held weapons and those Nordic helmets.

http://cdn.omg-facts.com/2013/4/22/8c4048aad2334990ec0c4496468a19db

:D

The imagery I'm seeing hasn't anything to do with Space Marines and when they were first released it never even entered my mind...

[Kirsten]

no there is no real comparison with marines. they just happen to be dudes covered in full armour, that is it.

[Ray Rivers]

I don't mean this offensively, but honestly given your apparent optimism here... Are you completely new to the GW hobby?

Not really.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/lavaslair/RayRivers_RD_1_Swooping_Hawks_zps6bd2cc99.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lavaslair/media/RayRivers_RD_1_Swooping_Hawks_zps6bd2cc99.jpg.html )

I bought the first box of plastic beaky SM's a looonnng time (what 30 years?) ago. They were too tedious to put together so they ended up in the garbage.

But come on. Here you have an obvious break with the past; new miniatures, a new aesthetic, a new type of game (skirmish) which is much more in keeping with gamer's limited time, and all GW gets is crap. And, from what I understand even the painting of Khorne miniatures in a flesh tone other than Caucasian seems to be fairly indicative of a pretty radical change. So trying to predict future releases on past products is probably pointless.

So yea, I can easily see female miniatures interjected into AoS. Hell, if they put out a box of female Bloodreavers they probably couldn't keep them in stock!

[Kirsten]

I am very much looking forward to seeing what they do next. it is a brave new world.

[Erik Setzer]

Not really.

Then you should know that all your hoping is for nothing.

If you want female miniatures, buy from someone else. Other people make them (most of them not being ridiculous jokes, either), and they're great models. Sure, you can't use them in a GW store, but, well... having played outside a GW store, I never realized how much they're like playing in a prison. (Mind you, that's with a manager who was a really cool guy and pretty lax at times. But he did have to keep certain rules going.)

You say you've played since the start. Cool. Welcome to that club! So you know it's moot to hope. Just because a couple of Khorne guys have almost-African skin tones doesn't mark a sudden shift. We used to have models like that in the game, then they disappeared. Eventually they'll go back to whitewashing the game. They might do a female model somewhere so someone can enjoy sculpting an over-sexualized piece to appeal to their demographic (which isn't accurate, but whatever, market research is for amateurs, right?), but that's about it. And they're also already pretty much shut the door on female Stormcasts. (Once again, I have to say, if we're supposed to pretend that there's female warriors being forced to go to battle looking like men because "women aren't scary enough" or some BS like that, it's even more insulting than not having any.)

This is just one of those things you accept with GW. Kind of like how they retconned out female Orks and Orcs, just to make it even more of an "All Boys Club."

[nsc]

I don't think female bloodreavers would counteract the argument of "pinup-mostly-nude-eye-candy-female-male-fantasy"

I would probably buy a box to mix in with my dude-reavers though, I do like variance after all.

I think that, at least for the empire and bretonians, the lack of females stem from how they're grounded in historical armies, crusaders, renaissance-era/early horse and musket, and these armies are depicted without female rank and file troops. Whether this is revisionist history or not is at your discretion to decide as I'm not going to argue about erasure and what not, merely remarking at the state of things, or how they seem.

As far as the space marines in fantasy argument goes, yeah they are space marines, sort of. They're easy to paint, they're about hulking heroes and giant hammers. They're larger than human.

Is this a bad thing? No. Elite "humans" have always been a topic in historical warfare. British longbowmen, crusader knights, Spartans, royal guard of XYZ, immortals, grenadiers. Elite, larger than life, almost mythological units and troops have always been a thing and the stormcast being an entire army of elite, outnumbered, heroic troops, is a style that was missing from the good guys in whfb.

Edit:
"All boys club," is GW making it that? Are we as a community making it that? The fact of the mater is the sisters of battle don't sell and female wargamers are very few in number. You claim that the market would support female models but GW has always and will always try to make money. If Sisters of Battle were popular and sold models they wouldn't be web-order. They would be on shelves (or off shelves as people bought 'em) and you wouldn't be lamenting how "evil gw" doesn't make female models.

Looking for female dwarf models is a headache, it's not only GW who avoids female sculpts, they are few and far between. The only solution to increasing the visibility of women in wargaming is by buying female models, emailing customer support about whether they're over sexualized and converting them when they are over sexualized. If you have a beautiful army with female models in it, that are sensible and clothed and look awesome, they're the best advertisement to encourage other people to put in the work to get their own female minis and support your vision of equal representation.

[Mr Mystery]

Sisters aren't a great example duder.

They're cash expensive for middling points - so there are far more cost effective options out there.

Me? I'm on good money, and can afford pretty much any army I want. Yet I baulk at the price of Sisters of Battle as an army.

This has impacted on their appeal more than anything. When they first came out, they were pretty popular - released as they were in what, 1996ish? Most armies were metal. But they've not moved beyond that.

Put them in plastic, make them more cost effective (£50 for a ten strong squad is mad) and they will sell.

Sadly, for female wargamers? It's us smelly nerds that are the problem.... Go into a store, get letched at and perved over, have socially maladjusted oiks be really awkward around you....

[Kirsten]

sisters of battle are not a valid reference point though because they have no plastics. they would sell like crazy if they got updated.

[Theik]

The stormcasts are utterly boring.

Not only are they what replaced proper, oldschool warhammer, but it felt like somebody was given permission to create one, single model in a 3d modelling program and then told to somehow extrapolate that into an entire army by giving it different weapons. They're an even more monotonous version of space marines, which is saying something. At least space marines have the occasional beaky head or bare-headed sergeant, these guys are just literally copy-pasta'd all over the battle field like they're waiting for GW to shout "execute order 66" and pulling the plug out of Age of Sigmar entirely.

[nsc]

Well I've been painting up my stormcasts finally, and I love them.

They paint up real well, with the charm of a spacemarine's pauldrons, nice bulky weapons. The head-halos are different, and the belt buckles too, the gladius sheathes also have different iconography, and the shields have subtle differences.

They're great, makes me almost wish I wasn't such a slow painter :D but that's alright, I've got a lot of painting ahead of me, and no rush to get it all done.

[Xaric]

You say toe-may-toe, I say dullsley dullington.

And I field an army of Daleks when the notion strikes me.

They have more character.

Exterminate.

Feel free to ignore this guy please I've seen him trying to invoke rage with his trolling.

[Xaric]

I love how people will judge something in a comparison perspective and proclaim it is bad lets look at some other things in the hobby and make comparisons shale we.

Look there's chaos gods in 40k and fantasy setting since there inception into the game where's the rage about them?
Look in 40k there's space marines and chaos space marines they look the same where's the rage about them?
Look there's tomb kings in fantasy and necrons in 40k since there inception into the game where's the rage about them?
Look there's grim dark in both game formats where's the rage there?
Look there's a direct comparison on the elves and the elder where's the rage about them?
Look there's a direct comparison on the orks in both 40k and fantasy where's the rage about them?
Look daemons can be played in both games where's the rage about them?

And many many more.

Now do you see there is a lot of things taken from both formats to the game is there something wrong with this? no its fine for a company to take idea's and concepts from other products within the company it means if someone is playing one format and see a comparison they will most likely jump to the other format because of familiarity.

[Erik Setzer]

"female wargamers are very few in number"

See, I don't think is really accurate. I think the GW games skew things because, well, why would we really expect women to want to play all-male armies? I think they also might be less inclined to throw money at "premium priced premium models" when there are other hobby options out there, including within the wargaming hobby (such as games like Warmachine, Malifaux, and Infinity, which all have a number of female models, and even X-Wing has female pilots).

But even then, what about those of us guys who want to have diversity in our forces? I'd love a mixed Imperial Guard army, but I'll have to go third party to get heads to convert Cadians.

And, like MM, I can afford a new army if I want (like the Ogre Kingdoms army I bought and then only got to play a couple of times), but Sisters of Battle are way too expensive to try that with, and their rules aren't really doing so well either, so I'd have to pay a ridiculous amount for an army that'd either struggle hard, or sit on a shelf. I think Sisters would sell better than Grey Knights, but GK sell right now because they have a codex and affordable models. GW's added Harlequins, two AdMech forces, and Knights, while ignore cries to make Sisters in plastic.

And it's clearly not an industry thing. It's just GW. Seriously, look at the other companies, you'll find diversity. It's so bad that third party companies can actually make money off of selling stuff to convert or add females to GW armies.

Not meaning to go on and on with "GW bashing" here, just saying, there's no reason to hold out hope for female Stormcast models.

Though at this point, the Stormcasts would mostly be helped just by having *any* new models that don't look like a Clonetrooper with different kit.

[Path Walker]

The armour, faces, helmets and weapons on each of the Stormcast units is different. They're not "copy and pasted" any more than Space Marines are.

[Katharon]

...it's a hoplon, a Greek shield also known as an aspis. It's not Roman!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

While I like the Stormcasts I can agree it would be nice to see some female valkyries (love that idea) and they do need much more variety. They seem to currently be suffering 2nd/3rd edition Necron Syndrome. Hopefully whenever they get another update they'll get more interesting stuff (Cavalry like the one in the starter set would be an obvious one, a set of Gryph hounds could be cool too).

I've had some negative experiences whenever i've brought women into GW with me. A few times men even made comments on my friends chest size right in front of her. We wee not impressed >.>

[Erik Setzer]

I've had some negative experiences whenever i've brought women into GW with me. A few times men even made comments on my friends chest size right in front of her. We wee not impressed >.>

That's not a problem with wargamers, it's a problem with those particular people being abhorrent individuals.

[Xaric]

what about sisters of sigmar?

[Cutter]

what about sisters of sigmar?

Or Chromecast Eternals?

GW are all about brand synergy.

[Morgrim]

Or Chromecast Eternals?

GW are all about brand synergy.

I hear "Chromecast Eternals" and immediately think of the warboys from Fury Road.

And now I am wondering which army could best proxy that.

[nsc]

Gorkamorka orkz


"female wargamers are very few in number"

See, I don't think is really accurate

Well, I do? I don't see them at the historical wargaming events, I don't see them in the communities, I don't see them at the FLGS, They're not attending the magic tournies I'm attending. I don't see them at big conventions dedicated to board game tournaments/championships. I don't see nearly as many women playing tabletop rpgs as men.

Obviously as you skew to board game and video game conventions in a more general sense the female footprint becomes better and better and more realized. However all of my female friends don't see the appeal of violence, they're not watching the action movies, they're not playing wargames. The biggest "gamer girl" I know plays tons of games, on her 3DS. She's a gamer, but she's not a wargamer by any stretch of the imagination, similarly all the ladies I know who like board gaming prefer the Euro style with very little competitive interaction between the players. They're gamers, but they're not about to play games about little soldiers killing each other.

If they're not a small minority then why are they not present at these larger events that I'm attending? Is there some underground wargamergirl community where they only play in basements? What anecdotal data do you have Erik where "it's GW's fault that there are no girls wargaming, other games have much more" (loosely paraphrasing, forgive me :P).

Because I'm not seeing them playing Kings of War, I'm not seeing them play Infinity, I'm not seeing them play Battlelore, C&C, Kemet or Wallenstein. I'm not seeing them playing Battleltech, Axis & Allies, or 1812. I do see more women coming out for One Night Ultimate Werewolf, Lords of Waterdeep, King of Tokyo, Dead of Winter, Ticket to Ride, Suburbia, Castles of Mad King Ludwig and Arkham Horror.

What are these wargames where there are a lot of female wargamers since you seem to think they refuse to play wargames because of male models?

[Erik Setzer]

Okay, so because you personally don't see or know many, you think they don't exist? I mean, we have more than one female posted on BoLS, but clearly they're fictional and not real.

I see different at tournaments and game stores. I see women of varying ages (mostly young, but then, most of the guys are also young) playing not just board games but also card games, miniatures games, RPGs. On Saturday when I go to play D&D with friends, there's a table right next to ours with a female GM and a couple of other women playing.

These are the same kind of arguments used to push only male protagonists in video games. "Girls don't play video games! I don't know of any, I've never seen one! So why do anything they'd like?" Ditto for comics, too. But hey, look, in both of those cases people were proven wrong, and companies reaped the profits from coming out of the All Boys Club.

You're not going to see many women if you argue in favor of all male models with the occasional for-sex-appeal-only female models. A lot of male gamers turn off women by acting like women shouldn't be anywhere near their precious models, too (especially as it means that model companies might be more inclined to put out decent female models and not fantasy fodder for "men"), and that's not going to help the situation. Making sexist, obnoxious, and/or insulting comments about women doesn't make them want to spend time around the people doing so, which might keep women out of certain stores and communities.

But no, it's clearly that they don't want to belong to the community. I mean, why wouldn't you want to join a club full of people who are going to make horrible comments about you, and the models you can best "relate" to are sexed-up because your gender is only good for satisfying the clearly superior other gender?

[Morgrim]

If they're not a small minority then why are they not present at these larger events that I'm attending? Is there some underground wargamergirl community where they only play in basements?
Actually yes, generally.

On BoSLs we're mostly hiding the in the Oubliette. Elsewhere a lot of women play in groups with other women or in places that have proven to be accepting of women, because being verbally attacked in a lot of gaming clubs is quite tiring. Did you know there are entire blogs dedicated to listing which gaming stores are and are not considered 'safe' to play in? In this case 'safe' is defined as able to play a game without being told you don't belong, being treated as a strange alien being, being constantly hit on by people you wouldn't date under any circumstances but they refuse to get the message, being told you have to be present for dating because 'girls don't play games', or being around obnoxious arseholes who keep making rape jokes.

From my rough reckoning I'd say women make up about 10% of wargamers, with a lower representation in historical wargaming and a higher representation in casual gaming in general. My personal experiences with tournaments has been pretty unpleasant because they seem to concentrate the worst of the local gaming community, so I'm not surprised others have also decided to avoid them.

[Ray Rivers]

Actually yes, generally.

On BoSLs we're mostly hiding the in the Oubliette. Elsewhere a lot of women play in groups with other women or in places that have proven to be accepting of women, because being verbally attacked in a lot of gaming clubs is quite tiring. Did you know there are entire blogs dedicated to listing which gaming stores are and are not considered 'safe' to play in? In this case 'safe' is defined as able to play a game without being told you don't belong, being treated as a strange alien being, being constantly hit on by people you wouldn't date under any circumstances but they refuse to get the message, being told you have to be present for dating because 'girls don't play games', or being around obnoxious arseholes who keep making rape jokes.

From my rough reckoning I'd say women make up about 10% of wargamers, with a lower representation in historical wargaming and a higher representation in casual gaming in general. My personal experiences with tournaments has been pretty unpleasant because they seem to concentrate the worst of the local gaming community, so I'm not surprised others have also decided to avoid them.

:eek:

Thanks for that response. I guess I'm naive on the subject, but I had no idea.

I'd also like to make a clarification to something I wrote here concerning female Bloodbound mini's. I was not referring to sex dolls with big weapons ala Conan. What I was imagining were huge female barbarians, rippling with muscles and able to swing an axe and cleave someone apart just as easily as their male counterparts. Mini's which, when mixed, would blend in so well folks would take a double take and say... "Hey, those are women!"