Eldar Theorizing

[Kenny Bailey]

I've been thinking and considering, reading and reviewing, and just in general starting to think about what I want to do with an expanded version of a story that I'm working on.

But anyway, I came to one idea that seems plausible, though completely untouched and left lacking in detail by Games Workshop. (As my friend put it, GW doesn't care enough to work on this material because 'GW has a raging hardon for Space Marines and basically nothing else.')

Reading about Slaanesh. I was curious about the reach of her will and saw mixed information, to me. In one instance, she's omnipresent, there at any moment of temptation, greed, lust, etc. But then in another, she's beatable by Nurgle, which to me implies a level of not being omnipresent. Those two things seem conflicting. I'd think that Slaanesh would be more interesting as a strongly present but not omnipresent being. Otherwise, I think everyone would be corrupted by now.

I also was curious about Spirit Stones so I was trying to find where their creation was mentioned. At first, I couldn't find it so I started hypothesizing about what is going on there. I saw an entry where it mentioned that Eldar create Spirit Stones so I was looking for the Path that was devoted to the creation of Spirit Stones.

BUT, then, I saw the mention that it is a perilous task to find more Spirit Stones. That to get a Spirit Stone is to go to the Crone Worlds within the Eye of Terror. That made me wonder if the spirit stones were made before the Fall, which I rightfully thought was weird because nothing about Eldar society before the Fall suggested any inkling of a want to make such a device.

Furthering my research, I saw a quote: "They are made out of psycho-receptive crystals called waystones." Well, that's great. What's a waystone? I didn't find it at first so it was a real head scratcher for me. But that's also when I came up with an idea.

What if Krivvin and all of his siblings (he has an older sister and younger twin siblings)... What if they were born with a Spirit Stone? An anomaly, born from desperation of his parent's out of love for their children to be free of despair, given form through latent psychic will. After all, the Eldar have a special spiritual and psychic presence in the Universe.

To my understanding, if anything like that were to happen; the Eldar of all would be the one to experience it. It doesn't seem incredibly farfetched, but is definitely an overly unique idea. Hopefully not absurd?

Thinking about it further. That means their spirits are a closed circuit, within the spirit stone by birth. I don't know what kind of durability it may have. I was thinking that it would be part of their body, like grown from bone or grown into bone. Kind of like a calcium deposit.

This would obviously make it a bit more involved to bring their spirit stones back to a Craftworld... That also made me think about their technology. Nothing really covers what they do with studying and tending to pregnant Eldar. It doesn't seem farfetched that they have perfected technology to be able to acutely analyze an Eldar body to know pretty much every aspect of their physiology. Simply, it would be no secret that these children were born with a Spirit Stone fused to their bone structure.

That's when my friend said that Spirit Stones are unique technology, essentially soul traps. If the Eldar have a way to detect and measure souls (which he is 99.9% sure they do), they'd be able to tell if something that doesn't look like a spirit stone is a spirit stone.

That's when I thought about something else. If a spirit stone were spiritually and physically bound to an Eldar throughout their life. It seems like it could grow alongside the Eldar as part of an Eldar's progression in life. As an Eldar's pool of psychic energy grew, it seems like the spirit stone might evolve with it. To what end? I don't know.

After I said that, I found another quote: "Waystones are brought back to the Craftworld to be embedded into a wraithbone core. It then grows into a larger spirit stone." It's definitely capable of evolving, when a spirit is inside of a waystone. That part is important, I think. A spirit is required to tap into the full potential of a waystone.

My friend pointed out "that this only happens after they die and when the spirit stone has a soul in it. Spirit stones are literally just empty vessels that trap souls." BUT! ... These Eldar are born with a connection to the spirit stone Their soul is inside of it already.

Then, I FINALLY FOUND IT. The little line that explains the creation myth of a Spirit Stone. "In Eldar Mythology the spirit stones were created by Vaul from the Tears of Isha. This is taken as a metaphor for the crystallization of the psychic energies of the Eye." CRYSTALLIZATION OF PSYCHIC ENERGIES. In my mind, it made an Eldar born with a Spirit Stone plausible. After all, the birth of Slaanesh didn't create one spirit stone. It created a well pool of energy that seems to constantly create spirit stones. Excessive psychic energy bleeding into the Materium is creating Spirit Stones.

That's also when I touched on Slaanesh being unable to touch the souls of those trapped in a Spirit Stone. Otherwise, she would be eating those souls too. That's the entire purpose of a Spirit Stone. To protect the spirits of the fallen Eldar from "She Who Thirsts."

My friend was thinking about what being bound to a Spirit Stone from birth would mean. He wondered if their souls in a stone, they could maybe do something with it. Like power and pilot wraithguards/lords.

Being encapsulated by a spirit stone means that their souls exist outside of the Warp. An eldar trapped in a soul stone would not be tempted by Slaanesh. It did make me think that it would hinder external psychic powers? I'm not sure really. To my understanding, psychic powers is a psyker reaching out into the Warp to pull out an effect and cause an external event.

My friend pointed out that when an Elder dies, they are put into the stones, which serves as their afterlife. The only way for them to interact outside of the stones if it they are made to be wraithguards or wraithlords.

I don't know if a living Eldar bound to a Spirit Stone would be able to use Psychic powers. I don't know enough about it and it doesn't really seem like they have anything to use to extrapolate further on this chain of thought. I was curious about what one might do with their own pool of psychic energy. Being able to draw that out and use it for smaller effects. It would seem to me like such an Eldar would have diminished psychic potential? Or at least, they wouldn't be able to do the awesome external super psychic powers. Their powers would be limited to the self only, influencing their individual bodies, minds, senses.

Doing so would draw out and push their psychic energy into the Warp. Basically, using Psychic energy would still draw attention like anyone else that uses psychic powers. Otherwise, their presence would seem to be largely concealed, if not completely withheld from the Warp.

... Just one long chain of ridiculous thought. It seems plausible and remotely supported. I didn't find anything that outright contradicts it. That none of this has happened doesn't seem like it is breaking anything. After all, as my friend thinks, "GW has a raging hardon for Space Marines and basically nothing else."

What do you think? I'd like to hear your input. :) (I do not mean to offend or upset anyone! My apologies if I did anything to annoy. I'm just working out an idea. Feel free to critique, review, and debunk based on anyone's expert opinion of lore that I may have missed.)

[Charon]

eading about Slaanesh. I was curious about the reach of her will and saw mixed information, to me. In one instance, she's omnipresent, there at any moment of temptation, greed, lust, etc. But then in another, she's beatable by Nurgle, which to me implies a level of not being omnipresent.

Chaos Gods ebb and flow all the time. There are times were Nurgle is not worth mentioning and there come times where all 3 of the other have to ally to put him back to more reasonable levels. Same with any of them. (Codex: Chaos Daemons)



I also was curious about Spirit Stones so I was trying to find where their creation was mentioned. At first, I couldn't find it so I started hypothesizing about what is going on there. I saw an entry where it mentioned that Eldar create Spirit Stones so I was looking for the Path that was devoted to the creation of Spirit Stones.

BUT, then, I saw the mention that it is a perilous task to find more Spirit Stones. That to get a Spirit Stone is to go to the Crone Worlds within the Eye of Terror. That made me wonder if the spirit stones were made before the Fall, which I rightfully thought was weird because nothing about Eldar society before the Fall suggested any inkling of a want to make such a device.

Spirit Stones are the "final gift from Isha". They just materialize on the crone worlds, they are not made by anybody (Path of the Outcast, Asurmen: Hand of Asuryan)


That's when my friend said that Spirit Stones are unique technology, essentially soul traps. If the Eldar have a way to detect and measure souls (which he is 99.9% sure they do), they'd be able to tell if something that doesn't look like a spirit stone is a spirit stone.

That's when I thought about something else. If a spirit stone were spiritually and physically bound to an Eldar throughout their life. It seems like it could grow alongside the Eldar as part of an Eldar's progression in life. As an Eldar's pool of psychic energy grew, it seems like the spirit stone might evolve with it. To what end? I don't know.

Spirit Stones are no Technology and just attune to the first person they touch. (Asurmen: Hand of Asuryan)


It did make me think that it would hinder external psychic powers? I'm not sure really. To my understanding, psychic powers is a psyker reaching out into the Warp to pull out an effect and cause an external event.


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Eldar-Wraithseer


Doing so would draw out and push their psychic energy into the Warp. Basically, using Psychic energy would still draw attention like anyone else that uses psychic powers. Otherwise, their presence would seem to be largely concealed, if not completely withheld from the Warp.

That is why they train long and hard and use runes and ghost helmets. Eldar Paths that are not required to use psychic powers teach to supress this potential.

[Morgrim]

I'm having a little difficulty following bits of your reasoning, admittedly, so I'll go over it again later when I'm less tired. But have you ever read The Masque of Vyle? It's a novel dealing with Dark Eldar and Harlequins, and soul stones are mentioned several times.

Specifically, dark eldar don't use soul stones as a matter of culture, not as a matter of capability. If they have a choice between 'true death' and 'soul in a spirit stone' they pick the latter. However that's very dangerous in kabalite society because without specialised wraithbone constructs - which they are incapable of making themselves - a trapped soul cannot interact with the external world. This makes the soul a sitting duck in a culture where there are multiple weapons that can be made from a trapped, tortured soul.

An eldar doesn't need to be bound to a spirit stone or tuned to it or anything of that nature for it to trap their soul on death. At one point in the book a harlequin offers an empty spirit stone to a dying dark eldar and his soul is caught in it without any complications. And apparently it is possible for a former kabalite to join craftworlder society (I presume via being dragged 'home' by a young eldar that was on a corsair crew with them during their Path of the Wander days) so it has to be something unrelated to psykic abilities.

There is some trick or methodology that kabalites use to bind their soul to their bodies, so that if their allies can drag their corpse home and repair it fast enough the soul can re-enter the body and bring the dark eldar back to life. But there is only a short time period (I think about 24 hrs?) in which they can do so. Any longer and they die for good and She Who Thirsts eats them.

[Charon]

But there is only a short time period (I think about 24 hrs?) in which they can do so.

There seems to be no set time limit as a lot of them were brought back even centuries after their deaths. It just gets more complicated and that individuum must be strong willed. (Path of the Renegade)

[Kenny Bailey]

Charon, thanks for the information. I will give it a read.

Morgrim, I have not read The Masque of Vyle. Thanks for the suggestion. I will look for it and give it a read. :) That's especially interesting to learn about a harlequin offering an empty spirit stone to a dying dark eldar.
---

Both of you, thanks for the information. That's why I posted. I wanted to learn. :)

[David Crossley]

Any longer and they die for good and She Who Thirsts eats them.
Just to make things even more complicated it's implied that after the souls are devoured they're not actually destroyed, they're sort of in an Eldar limbo-hell, as it's suggested that should Ynnead defeat Slaanesh, then all the souls of the Eldar she's consumed over millennia will be released to be reborn as the pre-fall Eldar souls once were.

There's a similar foreshadowing for the Aelfen (Aelven?) souls/race in the Age of Sigmar book, in that the race is missing, but the Aelf Gods can hear and feel them undergoing unbearable pain and suffering somewhere, meanwhile Slaanesh got far more souls from the world that was than they bargained for and could handle at once and had to go sleep off the meal, whereupon Tzeentch guided the gods Tyrion and Malerion to Slaanesh's location where they captured him/her. Presumably at some point Fat Slaanesh is getting popped to get the Aelf souls out.

[Kenny Bailey]

Just to make things even more complicated it's implied that after the souls are devoured they're not actually destroyed, they're sort of in an Eldar limbo-hell, as it's suggested that should Ynnead defeat Slaanesh, then all the souls of the Eldar she's consumed over millennia will be released to be reborn as the pre-fall Eldar souls once were.

There's a similar foreshadowing for the Aelfen (Aelven?) souls/race in the Age of Sigmar book, in that the race is missing, but the Aelf Gods can hear and feel them undergoing unbearable pain and suffering somewhere, meanwhile Slaanesh got far more souls from the world that was than they bargained for and could handle at once and had to go sleep off the meal, whereupon Tzeentch guided the gods Tyrion and Malerion to Slaanesh's location where they captured him/her. Presumably at some point Fat Slaanesh is getting popped to get the Aelf souls out.

Wow! That's some awesome information. Thanks for that. I have read about Ynnead. I think I read about the myth of rebirth/release of the consumed. But, definitely cool to get a refresher on it either way. :)

[Kenny Bailey]

Ok. After some discussion, the idea of an Eldar being born with a Spirit Stone doesn't seem possible, feasible, or worthwhile for the Eldar. Though through discussion, an interesting scenario was given to me. BUT, I came up with an idea to expand on that and was curious what others thought.

They told me that Daemons are always eager to possess a living host to use as a vessel in the real world, and Eldar in particular are favorite victims of Slaaneshi creatures. If the would-be host has the mental fortitude to throw off the will of a daemon however, and free themselves from possession; it renders them immune to becoming repossessed. (Something the Inquisition makes a point of using if their agents find an individual capable of it.) In addition, the individual gains stronger resistances to general Chaos influence.

That's also when they said that it would be near impossible for a young child to commit such a feat, but it might be within the realm of possibility in a situation such as: A pair of Eldar (the other being a friend/family/mentor/etc.) are sheltering themselves from a Chaos assault on their Craftworld, an assault undertaken by an ambitious champion of the Dark Gods. Warp rifts are opening all over, pouring unholy energies into the world around them. Despite their best efforts, the pair is found by an enemy soldier.

The other Eldar and the warrior fight. The warrior is killed, but manages to damage/destroy the other Eldar's Soul Stone before falling. Without the protection offered by his/her Stone, the Eldar is exposed to the raw power of the Warp being unloaded by the rifts, crippling his/her soul and allowing a daemon of Slaanesh to enter his/her mind. A mental battle ensues, the host is overpowered, but puts up enough of a fight to damage both: their own body and the daemon's essence.

With the initial target falling apart and unusable, the weakened daemon turns on the other Eldar, seeking to consume his soul and use him as a replacement vessel. A fierce battle takes place inside his head as he struggles to hold onto both his life and his sanity as the daemon wreaks havoc. With supreme effort of will, he manages to tear the creature from his soul and cast it back into the Warp through sheer force of will (possibly sparked by the dire situation of the other Eldar / or death of the other Eldar / or supplemented by latent psychic potential / open to suggestions).

Scene ends with him being found beside the body of the fallen Eldar in the ruins of wherever they'd been taking shelter, found after the Chaos army has been routed.

--------------------------

Now... for the story, I am using one of my oldest RPG characters. In the recent past, I came up with siblings for him. An older sister. About 11-12 years older. Younger siblings: twins. I never came up with anything for his parents though and was working on that. My thoughts are that the mother would be an Autarch and the father would be a Spiritseer.

In this scenario, what would you think could happen of an Autarch (the mother) experienced such a trial alongside... say her own father, twin sister, or mother? The mother becomes immune to Possession and greater resistance to Chaos Influence. Is there any chance that this could be passed on to the children?

[Charon]

For one "posession" is not genetic and for the other: Victims of daemonic posession are broken beeing in the end. Forever tainted only a few scraps of a soul remaining an most of the time mentally broken.

[Kenny Bailey]

Based on further feedback, I see that passing on an Immunity to Possession is not feasible. Though, one person did comment on the Indomitable Will of the Mother that was capable of casting off a Daemon trying to possess her. And then saying that this trait, an Indomitable Will, being passed down to the children could be possible... and then left it up to me to do with what I will based on that idea. :)

[Kenny Bailey]

After seeing responses from others, I realized that the feat of throwing off possession would naturally be an individual feat. That anyone else would need to achieve that of their own accord. I did have a thought though. This is going into pure speculation, not knowing if this is contradicted in any canon materials.

After the mother experiences the event, she has an encounter with the future father of her children (a Spiritseer) who has divined that together - "With the third child of your union, a fourth would join them." (i.e. a divination of a promised "twin" which I know is very special and even treasured for what twin Eldar are capable - Revenant Titans, Phantom Titans, Wraithknights...) I'm not really sure what they would be. Honestly, the twins are from an original idea. I only just found out that twins are special, which is really cool to me.

Now, I didn't know about the ages of time required for Paths. I'm not attached to requiring the mother to be an Autarch at the time of the event. It could have been a precursor, a sign to the others, that she is of special quality that would elevate her towards becoming an Autarch in the future. To my understanding, an Autarch is never lost on the path and that an Autarch is more capable than an Exarch, who is lost on the path.

I did have another crazy idea. With the father being a spiritseer, he has a communion with other seers. They give him advice on having a ceremony/ritual with the would-be mother of promised twins: a ritual that shares the experience, trauma, struggle, event... gives that to the father and kind of emboldens/strengthens his spirit against Chaotic influence. All of this while in the protection of the Crystal Dome of Seers.

In the future, this ritual (after having been accomplished by both) would then be repeated with greater support - the father being able to provide his own will to the ritual while enacting it upon, in this case, the first born child: Krivvin's eldest sister, who often actually is seen as the most promising, most talented, most capable of all of the siblings. Then, it would be to do the same for Krivvin so that by the time the twins are born - a small circle is involved in the ritual for them to be especially cared for during the moment.

[Perversor]

I think you are dragging too much the lore in order to find something special, i often found that small short snippets of history or actions added to the lore seems to provide a lot of more interesting paths.

As example i play a devastated Craftworld where Wraiths are so common that unlike Iyanden and other craftworlds fielding them it's not a taboo but more a matter of proud. (warriors dedicated so much to protect their kind that choose to remain ever vigilant)

This craftworld has developed a special kind of attunement to the spirit stones and living warriors often join with other deceased souls of their infinity circuit and bond to carry them as guides to the battlefield.

This makes a pseudo exarch effect and the living one can tap into the memories and expertise of the deceased one allowing fresh warriors show the expertise of centuries hardened veterans.

side effects: if the warrior dies and is lucky both souls will be contained within the stone, otherwise the most oftenly is the strongest soul *melds* with the weaker devouring that warriors essence in a similar way as slaanesh may do, in some situatios long expositions to a *binded* deceased warrior soul can make the living eldar to take the shape and memories of the deceased ones thus slowly allowing them to reborn in exchange of themselves in similar way as Lucius does.

[Kenny Bailey]

I think you are dragging too much the lore in order to find something special, i often found that small short snippets of history or actions added to the lore seems to provide a lot of more interesting paths.

As example i play a devastated Craftworld where Wraiths are so common that unlike Iyanden and other craftworlds fielding them it's not a taboo but more a matter of proud. (warriors dedicated so much to protect their kind that choose to remain ever vigilant)

This craftworld has developed a special kind of attunement to the spirit stones and living warriors often join with other deceased souls of their infinity circuit and bond to carry them as guides to the battlefield.

This makes a pseudo exarch effect and the living one can tap into the memories and expertise of the deceased one allowing fresh warriors show the expertise of centuries hardened veterans.

side effects: if the warrior dies and is lucky both souls will be contained within the stone, otherwise the most oftenly is the strongest soul *melds* with the weaker devouring that warriors essence in a similar way as slaanesh may do, in some situatios long expositions to a *binded* deceased warrior soul can make the living eldar to take the shape and memories of the deceased ones thus slowly allowing them to reborn in exchange of themselves in similar way as Lucius does.

Well, I'm mostly seeking thoughts based on if anything that I'm putting forth is contradicted in canon. I'm just considering ideas really, not specifically focused on going for anything special. It's just something that's coming to mind as I read more. For example, I didn't know Eldar twins were special. The only reason for the twins was because the character had siblings that were twins.

Your Craftworld sounds interesting. That's a neat idea. Kudos to you for coming up with something so cool. I like the thematic. Do you have a place where you have compiled the information that you created about that? I'd like to read about them. Sound neat. :)

[Charon]

Eldar twins are special because they are rare (like our twins) and Eldar do not get a lot of children. Pregnancy is long and hard on them so they rarely give birth if they do at all.
Like with our twins there is some kind of "secret understanding" between eldar twins, reinforced by psychic power. They can read each others minds and act completely in union. Thats why they are needed for the bigger constructs. for their ability to act in union.

[Kenny Bailey]

Eldar twins are special because they are rare (like our twins) and Eldar do not get a lot of children. Pregnancy is long and hard on them so they rarely give birth if they do at all.
Like with our twins there is some kind of "secret understanding" between eldar twins, reinforced by psychic power. They can read each others minds and act completely in union. Thats why they are needed for the bigger constructs. for their ability to act in union.

I know. When I found out about that, I was really stoked because I hadn't realize that twins were so special. That's just so awesome. :)

It feels like the canon is supporting this idea even further. :D