Razorback

[joescalise]

can a 10 man tactical squad take a razorback if you plan on using combat squad at the start of the game. So 5 in the razorback and 5 out.

or since the unit is 10 strong they cannot take it as a dedicated transport, since it can only hold 6.


thanks for your help.

[Sir Biscuit]

They certainly can. Units that can take dedicated transports are limited in their options by squad size. Even if you took a ten man squad and didn't combat squad them it would still be legal.

[Akkon Sek]

Even if you took a ten man squad and didn't combat squad them it would still be legal.

Seriously?! I'm not disparaging your response on any level, but that seems somewhat... cheesy. It's entirely possible I haven't read/comprehended the SM rules appropriately. But, ugh.

I would think a dedicated transport would have to posses the ability to actuallytransport all of the models to which it is assigned. At least initially.

I can certainly see the use of Combat Squads to split that, and then would take zero issue with the gang-of-five hopping the the Razorback. But the half-in/half-out thing seems... off. To me at least.

[gannam]

Its not really that cheesy. its 10 extra points for a heavy storm bolter and no firing ports and reduced transport capacity. Its an additional 50 points if you put a lascannon on the top of it.

You aren't getting anything for free by doing this.

Remember that you can do the same thing with a rhino as well. you can field it empty and combat squad the unit and deploy all 3 in different places on the board.

Same thing with empty drop pods. You see an opponent that will chew your drop pod infantry up? Fine. drop all the pods empty and use them for speed bumps.

[Lord Azaghul]

Seriously?! I'm not disparaging your response on any level, but that seems somewhat... cheesy. It's entirely possible I haven't read/comprehended the SM rules appropriately. But, ugh.

I would think a dedicated transport would have to posses the ability to actuallytransport all of the models to which it is assigned. At least initially.

I can certainly see the use of Combat Squads to split that, and then would take zero issue with the gang-of-five hopping the the Razorback. But the half-in/half-out thing seems... off. To me at least.

One may not put half a unit in and half a unit out - I'm relatively sure the brb specifically forbids this!

If your going to combat squad - its really not a bad idea.

[Akkon Sek]

One may not put half a unit in and half a unit out - I'm relatively sure the brb specifically forbids this!

Exactly. I thought this as well, but don't have the source material in front of me at the moment.

Personally, I would have absolutely no difficulty "allowing" the Combat Squads split (with Razorback). Though it might be stretching the rules somewhat as I believe the CS "split" happens technically after the models deploy to the table, so as-built it's a ten-man squad. The Razorback holds, what... six?

I imagine it could be argued that the Razorback can't fit them prior to that point (deployment). However I don't claim to be a 5E SM expert by any stretch of the imagination.

As far as the Heavy Bolter thing: I suppose from a fluff standpoint the mechanics to mount the turret are there regardless of what is actually installed. Hence the reduced transport capacity. Take out the gears/wires/turret ring/etc and it's just a vanilla Rhino.

[Nabterayl]

Seriously?! I'm not disparaging your response on any level, but that seems somewhat... cheesy. It's entirely possible I haven't read/comprehended the SM rules appropriately. But, ugh.
All he was saying is that you can buy a Razorback with a ten-man squad, whether or not you choose to combat squad that ten-man squad upon deployment. Which is completely true. A ten-man unit can't fit inside the Razorback, but it can still buy it. You could, for instance, buy a ten-man Devastator squad with a Razorback for extra firepower, then decide to deploy the Devastators in a single unit. The Devastators would not be able to embark in the Razorback in that case, but they would still have the Razorback's guns.

If you think about it, this is actually a pretty natural corollary to the combat squad rule itself. Since you don't have to embark in your dedicated transport, it would be needlessly restrictive for the rules to require a ten-man squad to split every time it bought a Razorback.

[joescalise]

so since when you split your squads, they become to different squads. I could buy a 10 man squad split them during deployment and put the razorback with in 2 inches and on the first turn put the 5 man tactical squad in. Correct?

[Nabterayl]

so since when you split your squads, they become to different squads. I could buy a 10 man squad split them during deployment and put the razorback with in 2 inches and on the first turn put the 5 man tactical squad in. Correct?
Correct. In fact, if you buy a Razorback for a ten-man squad, you can split that squad during deployment and put one combat squad from the "parent" unit inside during deployment.

[Akkon Sek]

so since when you split your squads, they become to different squads. I could buy a 10 man squad split them during deployment and put the razorback with in 2 inches and on the first turn put the 5 man tactical squad in. Correct?

As I understand it, absolutely. As now transports can taxi anyone. That's not the portion which bothers me (and "bothers" isn't the right term... more curiosity than anything else).

The odd portion for me is that SM can deploy a dedicated transport (purchased as such, with no corresponding Force Organization detriment) which cannot actually transport all the models to which it is initially "dedicated", should you choose not to use CS. Just seems weird to me is all.

Kinda' like a free (non-heavy-slot) Baal. With the admittedly lesser armor, no sponsons, etc.

Not attempting to be purposefully argumentative here.

[Lerra]

It's not all that common, but I've seen people who run footslogging marines with razorback support for their anti-tank. None of the marines ride in the razorbacks - they are just gun platforms. It's a reasonable army list, on the lower end of the power scale. I can't see people complaining that a list like that is cheesy. Razorbacks are pricey if you aren't using them as transports.

[codiddy]

so since when you split your squads, they become to different squads. I could buy a 10 man squad split them during deployment and put the razorback with in 2 inches and on the first turn put the 5 man tactical squad in. Correct?
If you combat squad them you can deploy one unit inside the razorback to start and the other wherever you want. Also the razorback is considered its own unit so you don't have to keep the infantry it transports within 2".

[Akkon Sek]

For the record, I just found the whole premise interesting. I'm not even the slightest bit bothered with how the darn thing hits the table. Only mentioned it as I can see some rules lawyer popping a blood vessel over it. Could be way off base there.

Of course, I would be lax in my devotion to my renegades if I didn't point out that we, as CSM, get a crap-arse rocket laucher and two standard-issue bolters tacked together with duct tape as our high-powered tranport. And we have to all squeeze inside. :cool:

I guess I see it as akin to telling a 10-man squad of Russian soldiers "Here's your squad's ride fellas. A BMP-2. Ain't it cool? Yeah, I know it only fits seven. You other three, uh... run along side I guess. You can take turns."

Only vaugely related: was discussing this thread with some pals and they brought up all the pictures of US soldiers riding the top of the M-113s in Vietnam. Interestingly (perhaps, only to me) that has nothing to do with transport capacity. The reason there is the Vietcong got wise to the fact the the 113's underbelly was made of tinfoil. Turned out they'd rather take their chances with snipers than risk thier... manhood.

Thus ends your history lesson for today. There'll be a short quiz.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

From Chaos FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf): "Q. Can a unit numbering more than 10 models still take a Rhino as a dedicated transport, even though it cannot embark? A. Yes, as the squad might drop to 10 models or less during the game."

I know it's a different codex, but the precedent here is fairly clear.

[Akkon Sek]

From Chaos FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf): "Q. Can a unit numbering more than 10 models still take a Rhino as a dedicated transport, even though it cannot embark? A. Yes, as the squad might drop to 10 models or less during the game."

I know it's a different codex, but the precedent here is fairly clear.

Completely agreed. Doesn't get any clearer than that, does it?

Thank you sir.

[lobster-overlord]

Old rules had the "make room for the boss" rule, which allowed a 10 man with a special character attached embark in a rhino, for instance. They dropped that in 4th, and specified that if you wanted a 10 man unit with any characters attached to embark, some one got left behind, as an immediate, out of coherancy casualty (removed from game as 9 others and IC embark). 5th has completely done away with it.