Forces of Distinction - Renegade and Chaos Marines.

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

So gonna go ahead and prize the lid off this potentially can of worms come box of frogs.

In short, it's no secret that fans of non-Loyalist Marines feel a bit marginalised. And I agree for the most part. Whilst I can see good reason they don't get all the toys their Goody-Two-Shoes cousins get, I agree entirely they're just not very well represented in the game.

There's an absolute wealth of background out there for Renegade Marines of all stripes, and with some nice Black Library work (Soul Drinkers, I think) more is being added all the time.

But that variety hasn't made it through to the game (well, at least not yet. Hope springs eternal).

I don't think there's many, if any, who would disagree with the wider premise above. So what I'd like to explore is what sort of distinction people would like to see between the 'merely' Renegade and the full blown Traitor Legion, and indeed the various shades in between - and how would you like to see that realised on the board?

For an intellectual appetiser, here's my thoughts....

Traitor Legions. For a pure Traitor Force, I'd prefer to see super-duper Marines. Due to the vagaries and risks of hiding in The Warp, they've not necessarily been fighting for the past 10,000 years, but to a Transhuman, they are all survivors of the Heresy - and you don't survive something like that without being an absolute Turbo-Nutter.

Chaos Marines (so those who have turned to Chaos, but didn't take part in the Heresy, arguably the largest proportion). Well - it's the Tyrants Legion from FW. They may not have had a planet to start with, but I'm pretty sure they could take one if they wanted, giving them all the PDF toys to play with, and they might well pick a planet with an Astra Militarum regiment for added laffs.

Renegade Marines. Hmm. Trickier. Not 100% sure what I'd like to see!

So, thoughts and input please. And remember - do keep it civil. It's a discussion, not an argument.

As an addendum....could the three above flavours be covered by something similar to what is, let's face it, my favourite list - the Lost and the Damned in IA13?

[Deacon Ix]

As you have probably gathered I am a Word Bearer fan and everything I build is connected in some way to them.

I am just about to finish painting a Guard army which I have done in what I call PDF colours to give me the best of both worlds, as it was initally brought to serve as a renegade army but equally I would like to use them as Loyalist IG. I haven't yet decided whether I would play them as renegade Guard using the IG Codex or as Renegades using IA13, IMO both options are equally valid.

On to CSM, I would like to see at least 2 tiers, similar to what you mentioned, Top tier being HH era marines who toe to toe with a loyalist would eat them, and recently turned who are on a par if not as disciplined as the followers of the false emperor.

Easy way is that HH era marines are veterans and/or get an equivalent of chapter tactics, and just turned are as they are at present.

I think it's the third ed codex (published 2002, got the book, never played it) which, while apparently OP, has some nice rules for the different 'Chapters' of CSM.

I did have some thoughts about this awhile back and will copy paste them verbatim (take with a pinch of salt) Full Rant Here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6-f4di-FywINElkUG9OeUVsMUk5MUhQU0g1dUYxV1dndXRj/view?usp=sharing)


Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles should be Elites as they are far more support characters than leaders (same goes for loyalist Chaplins and techmarines), as a bit of a fluff Word Bearers could count Dark Apostles are either HQ or Elite and Iron Warriors could count Warpsmiths as either too.
All Named Characters –> Lords of War
Chapter Tactics – base points will have to be modified and balanced or as a polytheistic mark (bear in mind these are purely random ideas!)
 Word Bearers – Dark Apostles can either be Elite or HQ choices, some sort of fanatic rule
 Iron Warriors – Warpsmiths can either be Elite or HQ choices, reroll 1’s to hit on all heavy weapons.
 Night Lords – Night Vision + Stealth
 Alpha Legon -

These where all random ideas, basically I feel that basic CSMs need to be a little harder, after all, no one takes them...

[Mr Mystery]

I'd like to see more flexible Chapter Tactics type stuff for the Traitor Legions. They were massive fighting forces, and could operate in any theatre of war, so I'd prefer to not see Iron Warriors only excelling at Siege Work, and say, Word Bearers restricted to Possessed and that. Being particularly noted for one thing is not to say it's all they do well :)

[Deacon Ix]

I'd like to see more flexible Chapter Tactics type stuff for the Traitor Legions. They were massive fighting forces, and could operate in any theatre of war, so I'd prefer to not see Iron Warriors only excelling at Siege Work, and say, Word Bearers restricted to Possessed and that. Being particularly noted for one thing is not to say it's all they do well :)

Yes and No, and I'm not sure which side I fall :D,

Pre HH chapters used to be hundreds or thousands strong, so having multiple facets would be likely, but at the same time they did get pigeon holed into doing certain things and the Iron Warriors are a prime example of this and it is one of the reasons they turned.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the problem you've got with the Chaos Space Marine codex is twofold.

Firstly, Chaos is so many things to so many people; every Chaos fan has their specific thing about Chaos that they love beyond all others, and unless that thing is viable, they're going to feel cheated.

The second problem is the older Chaos players who remember codex 3.5, which was the Grey Knights 5th edition of its day, and through the nostalgia goggles, they kind of want the new Codex to be as powerful as that one was. They'll never admit as much, claiming merely to want an army that can hold its own (which is actually a fair point at the moment, as the current CSM codex can't), but unless the CSM codex is stomping all and sundry with its PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER, they simply won't be happy.

If I was in charge of the CSM book, I would aim to design it so that there were four core builds, each of which would be viable:

1 - Veterans Of The Long War: this would be the Legion build, made up of the ancient survivors of the Heresy. It would be a very low model count army, roughly comparable in power levels to a GK Paladin-themed list, only with the flavour of Chaotic mutations and relic weaponry. Cult marines would be the core of this build (with Black Legion as the 'generic', non-affiliated build). This army wouldn't run away, would be high toughness, and absolutely brutal in melee - probably the best elite melee force in the metagame - with a maximum shooting range of about 24" and multiple non-vehicle methods of delivering its troops into combat.

2 - Traitor Marines: this would be the 'generic' list. It would be roughly comparable to loyalist marines, but with weaker morale (because now the marines are fighting for themselves, not a cause), and a 'horde' style of play. Special and heavy weapons would be limited, because the Veterans of the Long War keep them for themselves, meaning this army would be forced to rely on higher numbers of men and bolters/bolt pistol/ccw to win - they're generally better at melee than shooting as a result. It would basically be very similar to the current codex, only with lower points costs for generic Chaos Marines. It would also have access to a scout equivalent troop unit - this would represent 'new recruits', forcibly kidnapped and modified to be the next generation of the chapter. This unit would be basically terrible at everything but melee, and would function like a slightly better version of cultists - a middle ground between the two, largely included for fluff purposes. A critical part of this army would be the 'meat grinder' aspect - that most Chaos Marines die quickly, because the faction is so much more Darwinian than the Imperium; it would be clear that this is why the ones that do survive are so dangerous.

3 - Chaos Cults: traitor humans. It would work by drowning the enemy in bodies, and be like a melee-centric Imperial Guard force. I'd include rules meaning that any CSM within a certain distance gained bonuses to their stats relative to the number of cultists nearby, as the cultists' faith fuels the Chaos Marines the cultists worship. So a standard CSM squad near twenty cultists suddenly becomes terrifying, and a Veterans squad becomes a Deathstar. The enemy strategy would be all about killing the cultists to depower the marines, kind of like the inverse of Tyranids (where you kill the synapse creatures)

4 - Daemonic Ascension: this would be a 'trick' list designed to represent CSMs who have fully embraced the darkness. It would be super random, fluffy, and very much 'win/lose big'. This would be the list most unlikely to be played at tournaments, but it needs to be in the codex, because it's kind of the purest incarnation of the CSM army.

Obviously, the 5th build is the combined arms one that mixes and matches a little of all four other builds. I'd also include rules for each Chaos Power:


Khorne troopers wouldn't be better at melee; they'd be better at getting into melee, so rules to make them faster (Crusader, or Assault Transport Rhinos maybe?), as well as ways to counteract Overwatch.
Tzeentch would be better at Psykers, so maybe an upgrade to make any Marine unit a level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers, or to attach a CSM Sorceror to a human cult (who would then become terrifying as their faith fuelled his spells).
Nurgle would just get the higher Toughness.
Slaanesh would be the trick faction, so there'd be lots of distraction techniques and the like. Not quite sure how I'd implement that, but something to keep the enemy guessing.

[Reldane]

What chaos players want

chapter tactics
traitor guard and all of its options
legion/cult units for terminators, assault marines and vetern marrines
not to have to take dinobots to feel competitive
for all the dinobots to be good and cost effective
dreadclaw/drop pods or really just a lot of the marine toys


it isn't that they shouldn't have any of these things, but a codex that contained them all would be so bloated and would easily be more than double the size of every other codex. I would doubt that it would be cost effective, certainly not to make everything that players want all at once.

[YorkNecromancer]

Traitor Guard = Guard.

So all that needs is an allies table change; Guard can ally with CSM, but if they do, they can't ally with any Imperium factions, something like that.

Also, 'classic' Chaos Marines shouldn't have any access to Codex marine toys for reasons I've gone into before. (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/40k-deep-thought-chaos-will-never-win.html) They should definitely have access to some of them, or else they'd lose a critical part of their flavour. But as far as modern marine weapons? No. Veterans of the Long War aren't Space Marines any more; they're something very, very different, and so should have completely different wargear to reflect their completely different logistics setups.

I'd suggest that for people who want that option, the Space Marine codex should include 'Renegade' as a chapter tactic. It would work just like any other, and would represent Codex marines who have only recently gone traitor. Renegade Marines would lose all Imperium allies, in exchange for the regular CSM allies... Although that could potentially be game-breaking as all get-out.

I would agree that Chaos Chapter Tactics is kind of essential; certainly of the Big Four cult marines if nothing else. As for cult versions of terminators, raptors and veterans, well... Cult marines are already veterans, and single-mindedly so. The best way to do it would probably be to run each Cult in the same way as Wolf Guard, where you can build them as you like. As always, the problem is that such an approach very quickly becomes horribly game-breaking, simply because of the sheer number of variables involved.

It's tricky. There's so much going on the CSM codex that it very quickly becomes a horrible mess. There'll definitely be a way to do it, but I suspect having an absurd number of options is probably not the best way to go about it.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

post-heresy chaos marines are a bit of a mixed bag I think, as that's 10k years - so any chapter or group of marines that fell after the 2nd founding could be almost just as ancient and powerful, but probably based on later armour. I've been doing some "concept" chaos marine renegade chapter models lately, so maybe ill post those as i doubt ill make armies out of any of them.

As for Legions, I'd like to see what they are doing with sigmar in terms of releases in that you have Bloodbound and Rotbringers, you could have World Eaters, Death guard, Thousand Sons ect. For the most part they only really need a single PA and a single terminator box each with perhaps a couple of clampack characters. Theres plenty of imagery and ideas to make them able to build alternate units too (akin to the GK ones)

[Chris*ta]

I feel what's needed is Codex Add-Ons (What are they calling them now?) for SM and Astra Militarum that allow you to play them as Chaos, to represent forces (relatively) fallen to Chaos/Renegades.

The CSM Codex should be about the guys who've been hanging around in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years (or nearly so long) and are general badasses, but miss out on most of the toys in the SM Codex, but has access to the Daemon Bots (and Cult Troops, etc.) instead.

Then there should be a Daemons Codex, that covers them.

In other news, how come the CSM Codex has the Demolisher (which is Post-Heresy) but not the Land Speeder? I can't work this out ...

[Charon]

How people can still cite 3.5 as broken when we have Craftworl Eldar and Gravspammers is beyond me...



In other news, how come the CSM Codex has the Demolisher (which is Post-Heresy) but not the Land Speeder? I can't work this out ...

It is a mess all in all... space marines get pre-heresy and post heresy equipment in huge piles even if their books state "it is extremely rare" while CSM doesn't even get standard drop pods which are used in almost every story.

[phreakachu]

traitor gaurd could easily be a suppliment for astra militarum. really, youd need rules for marking units, the addition of some if not all the chaos vehicle armory, some unique characters and perhaps a different list of orders, maybe not completely different but with some newer flavors.
csm itself shold be broken into 2 dexes, methinks, one for renegades, one for legions. bring the named characters in line with their heresy counterparts, in terms of power and wargear. and definately do away with the compulsary challenges.
and for certain, the named characters should not even have access to the boons and mutations table. its silly to think that kharn might end up a spawn, and none of them need the bonusses.

[Yayula]

How people can still cite 3.5 as broken when we have Craftworl Eldar and Gravspammers is beyond me...




It is a mess all in all... space marines get pre-heresy and post heresy equipment in huge piles even if their books state "it is extremely rare" while CSM doesn't even get standard drop pods which are used in almost every story.

CSM 3.5 is remembered by anyone who didn't play CSM as the Iron Warriors competitive list, which was among the strong ones since it could borrow stuff from the IG and also had no restriction on the oblies. There are 8 traitor legions so 7/8 of the chaos lists if not even more weren't as tough as people remember them which if my math don't fail me is the majority of the CSM players.

I think the FOC and special rules/restrictions from the 3.5 codex can't be dona again due to GW tendency to simplify rules and with 7th even the elimination of most "take a HQ get this unit as a troop now" the closest thing would be formations for each legion theme.

The Chapter/Legion tactics is something that just felt like an extra insult to how superior the loyalist avg marine is over the chaos one. For 1 mere extra point you get ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and your champion isn't bound to declare challenge (which most of the time results on him dying and making the rest of the unit more susceptible to morale) I'd say that is one pretty nicely costed point and I would definitively pay it over VotLW.

Making the avg marines cost the same as loyalist for Legion Tactics and some kind of advantage on challenges would be nice. The ATSKNF is still the biggest thing of the three but I'm ok with paying extra for something to help them hold their ground over the loyalist (icons / VotLW)

I don't remember the cost on the loyalist bike/assault/devastators/terminators which are the equivalents from both codexes but they are probably holding that 1 point difference cost if any. A similar solution would be needed. All this is only regarding base stats/points there is also a whole world of difference between wargear which is ok for chaos to have lesser tech heavy stuff but should get some sort of daemon aid to compensate which it doesn't.

[Thornblood]

Ooookay. So this would be my plan- released one a month, or every two months between other releases. Each release gives more units that the other marine factions can use, but the coinciding releases are better with the new faction.

Do the other daemonkin books. The khorne one is really good and can ride us over. Then...

Chaos Renegades book. Red Corsairs. Blood Gorgons. Pirates and traitors and plain stuff with loads of options. Also it would cross over into 'undivided daemonkin'- princes and maybe a duel box that makes furies and some new unit that can be the new cheese. Lots of crossover with codex marines representing these guys being traitors from this era and not legions. Special character include Huron blackheart, Fabous Bile, possibly Shaan- the ravenguard traitor from metre dead that leads a combined force of random renegades (graham McNeil), also dark mechanicum foot troops (that explains the workforce creating held takes and forge fiends etc)

undivided legions- each with significant themes and minimal daemons.

Black Legion- more elite units. Super-chosen. (Or chosen with more options). Chosen boxed set. Black legion upgrade pack? Plastic Chaos Lord in power/chaos armour. Plastic havocs.
New Abaddon model as Lord of War.

Iron warriors- more mech- chaos land raider variants. Iron havoc units. Fortifications for all chaos legions released but iron warriors get special rules to help them. New Oblits kit. Iron warriors upgrade pack? Plastic Warpsmith Clampack. Honsou as Lord of War. Other special characters including dark mechanicum.

Alpha Legion- Army largely of cultists with expanded cult units for everyone (stealing from imperial guard range) with just a few agents buffing them and debugging enemy. Cultist upgrade pack that can be used on imperial guard stuff. Alpha upgrade pack? Plastic chaos sorcerer? 'Scions of Alpharius' Lord of War- 2-5 guys who have shared the blood of the true alpharius and believe they are him (and so do followers)- not overpowered but able to take an average hq in combat. Massive buffs to alpha legion/cultist units.

Night Lords- sneaky, rippy, tearing. No idea what to do with these guys for new releases- maybe a torturer character? Extra unit of chosen raptors (or chosen can take jump packs- conversion from new chosen). Sevatar as Lord of war?

Word Bearers- plastic dark apostle. Loads of daemons. Chosen possessed. Word bearers upgrade pack. Special Lord of War dark apostle? Maybe the clampack is a duel kit for the special character/regular one.

Cult Legions- releasees one by one and replacing the daemonkin books, also each chaos God getting an individual daemon book that work together like daemonkin (so World Eaters and Khorne Daemons United can summon more khorne daemons or buff existing troops- extra synergy between both books). Allying a cult warband is now the only way you can get cult troops. (But the previous books can take marks of the Gods)- just not cult troops.

Finally, a dedicated Cultist book which has new units, lots of traitor guard, some alien mercs, and designed to ally with a daemon book, or another chaos book.

Thats 18 books- probs best released over 36 months, interspersed with other things. Including other elder craftworlds, a Kroot book that synergies well as alien mercenaries, dark elder Kabals (expanding the Sslyth and allowing the chaos renegade book to have units of them as mercs, or bodyguards), new Ork factions (likely just snakebites, 'normal orks'- Goffs Blood axes and evil Suns, and tekky orks- evil Suns and defskulls.)

thats the dream!

[Mr Mystery]

Next question.....

Just how hard should Veterans of The Long War be?

This to me is a particularly interesting question, as I've had a feeling that Space Marines suffer from 'they don't make them like they used to'.

Not only was the Marinification process fully understood, but Geneseed degradation hadn't had a chance to kick in, and they'd (for the most part) have been trained to the exacting standards of their Primarch.

Then you add in the decades, centuries and even millennia of battlefield experience.

Whilst I'm on board with Yorkie regarding the significant supply issues Renegades and Traitors face, surely those who fought in the Heresy would be better able with their standard issue kit? I mean, there's having decades of experience firing guns, and then there's decades of experience firing your gun.

But how to best represent this on the board?

Well, my suggestions are perhaps a little restrained. Where a Space Marine has a '4' stat, Legionnaires should have a '5' stat. Two attacks a piece, three for their squad leader, and an extra wound for him as well.

And finally, one simply doesn't survive the manifest horrors of the Heresy and what came after lightly. Such persons would either be incredibly lucky, or stupidly, stupidly tough - so have a 6+ Invulnerable (possibly FnP?) save and all.

Ld? Again, I'm ok with Legionnaies having a sense of self preservation Marines don't. Their psycho-conditioning was broken long ago after all, and many would much rather the other chap die for his God, thank you very much. Just raise it to a flat 10 - so they're brave, but not stupid (and Loyalist Marines are exceptionally stupid. Remember, to be a hero, you need to survive....)

Equipment wise? Throw the armoury open lads. Something akin to Chosen here, leaving their armament and thus overall points mostly to the individual player.

Yep, the points would have to go up - that's a given. Dunno by how much, I'm not one to worry about such things, so not best placed.

But in short - anyone facing a Legionnaire army should be scared from the outset. These are genhanced, Chaos powered psychopaths from the height of Man's powers. They've annihilated untold species, and are capable of besting any foe in the galaxy. They absolutely should be pants-fillingly hard.

Heck, as an old 3.5 Player, I'd also say bring back Veteran abilities too :)

[nuclearfeet]

For traitor guard, you should really look into the FW Renegade and Heretics book. Lots of options for making a unique army, I love it.

Traitor marines...let's clear up a common misconception. The traitor legions have been stuck in the warp for 10k years. But to the vast majority of them it's only been a couple hundred years(source: BL books). So I see no problem using the current CSM book to represent traitor marines, as they didn't have access to the newer marine equipment. There's also the HH rules which are technically legal for 40k, but you might find yourself out-classed in smaller point games.

Current-day renegades? I would use the loyalist SM codex...there's just no way they would suddenly abandon their assault cannons, multi-meltas, land-speeders, and land raider variants just because they turned evil.