Blood Angels and Space Marine Codex Variations

[son_of_volmer]

I want to make a post about differences between the units that both Blood Angels and Space Marine share. There are certain minute areas where the older codex has slight benefits.

I want to start with the Techmarine. If you're taking a Techmarine for as your HQ for Blood Angel's you've lost your mind, and not in the cool way where you get black armor.

The Space Marine codex Techmarine gets BS, Ld, W, A all boosted by one point above it's Blood Angel counterpart and comes with the power axe included in the profile, and has the option for a conversion beamer...

BUT the Blood Angel Techmarine costs 15 points cheaper and can swap its Cervo Arm for a jump pack. The model can still repair, but loses the Unwieldy, Specialist Weapon attack at times two strength and AP 1. The Blood Angel Techmarine is the cheapest way to get a deepstriking HQ unit if you are trying to fit the Angel's Fury (3 stormraven) force under 1500. If he picks up a free Chain Sword, the Techmarine is 50pts with a Jump pack.

Both Assault squads can take 2 flamers or plasma pistols but the Blood Angel Assault squad has access to meltaguns and plasma guns (hand flamers and inferno pistols) where the Space Marines get the eviscerator. Space Marine Assault squads are 15 points cheaper but they've got to add on Jump Packs for 3 points each. The Blood Angel's can drop their Jump PAcks and pick up a free drop pod or Rhino.

The Space Marine Command squad costs 10 points less, and they have the ability to take bikes. Their Apothecary isn't included in the price and must be selected for an additional 15 points. Blood Angels can take Jump Packs instead of bikes.

Space Marine Tactical Squads get a teleport homer for 5 points cheaper, and they can grab Grav cannons with grav amps, but the Blood Angels can get hand flamers, infrono pistols, and heavy flamers.

The Space Marine Scouts get a boosted WS and BS by . Anytime you find yourself squaring off against an opponent fielding Blood Angel scouts, if you say to that player "Hey, you know what? Let's just play your scouts with BS and WS 4." You'll find yourself with a new buddy and possibly a free tasty beverage. (I'm currently painting 20+ pewter scouts)

The Space Marine Attack bike is 5 points cheaper.

The Space Marine Landspeeder is 10 points cheaper and the secondary heavy bolter, heavy flamer and multi-melta it can undersling are 5 points cheaper and the assault cannon is 10 points cheaper.

Space Marine Terminators are 25 points cheaper (and 5 points cheaper per additional) but Assault Terminators pay 5 points more per Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer.

Space Marine Vanguard vets pay 10 points less for a relic blade.

Space Marine Dreadnoughts pick up two attacks and can be fielded in a squad.

Space Marine Devastators can grab grav cannons, and a baby with wings.

There are also the bonus rules for fielding a squad of three Predators, Vindicators or Whirlwinds.

I'm running out of steam, as I just re-wrote 60% of this spiel.

The small variations aren't so bad after all. Space Marines get some advantages and the Blood Angels get some too. What do you think? Did I miss anything?

[Captain Bubonicus]

Blood Angels squads get Furious Charge, so there's that.

[Angelofblades]

Furious Charge in a current edition that doesn't favor close combat isn't that great. Not at all great when you compare it to say, Dark Angel's overwatch on full BS, free transports in a formation, or the ability to use your jump packs in both the movement and assault phases.

[Djbz]

Blood Angels squads get Furious Charge, so there's that.

Which is Half of their Chapter tactics (the other half being The Red Thirst that they only get in some of their formations/detachments)

[Lexington]

Your list is, like, 90% comparative advantages for the Vanilla Marine Codex, either directly or in the form of "Marines get something that's far more useful," so I don't really see how you're reaching that conclusion.

[Deacon Ix]

I still feel hard done by.

Most of it being that I have Scouts and DC Dreads in my BA list.

[son_of_volmer]

I didn't mention Furious Charge as I didn't want to get into the nitty gritty of comparing it the other chapter tactics.

The Space Marine has minute improvement on some stats, but I feel Blood Angels have some options that a Space Marine opponent would look at (Assault squads, Techmarines or the Command squad) and say "Awww, I can't do that in my codex!"

[Defenestratus]

I didn't mention Furious Charge as I didn't want to get into the nitty gritty of comparing it the other chapter tactics.

The Space Marine has minute improvement on some stats, but I feel Blood Angels have some options that a Space Marine opponent would look at (Assault squads, Techmarines or the Command squad) and say "Awww, I can't do that in my codex!"

I still think that the biggest travesty in the BA codex is removing Assault Squads as troops.

Biggest outrage evah.

[Cleon]

I still think that the biggest travesty in the BA codex is removing Assault Squads as troops.

Biggest outrage evah.

Well I'd argue removing Death Company (and their dreadnoughts) at the same time, while then improving Marine scouts to the point that ours are an insult adds part of the outrage!

[Arijharn]

Also don't get vehicle squadrons at all or squadron special rules. No 24" flatout for groups of speeders, no heavy bombardment for vindicators, no kill shot for pred squadrons etc, etc. Furioso Librarians don't get 2 close combat weapons really either (check it, the Force Halberd isn't a specialist weapon), and frankly our Dreadnoughts need errata (with the scouts) asap imo.

[phreakachu]

all i hear is salt coming from red marines.
the death mask is still op, you have unique variants of the predator, extra elites slots, you dont have to paint your models blue to get access to the mst versitile and powerful units i n your codex, you have advantages, kids.
so i nstead of getting online and crying how much your codex sucks compared to codex blahblahblah, maybe you should read yourdex and think critically. if youre that bent up about it, switch to the vanilla dex. enough said.

[Mr Mystery]

You're playing Blood Angels.

Not Space Marines.

[spagunk]

all i hear is salt coming from red marines.
the death mask is still op

Can you provide an example on when this has been OP? I mean aside from Dante, only sanguinary guard get them and those have always been easy to snuff out at range.

In all the games I've played, deathmasks had no actual use. Either it is largely irrelevant (ATSKNF) or the army has large fearless bubbles/high leadership value. The only time I think this works is against a horde guard list but I have no clue if this is even in the current global meta at the moment.

[Grudge-bearer]

The Blood Angels took a huge hit with this codex. They lost certain things which gave them character in an effort to homogenize "Codex" chapters. It ignores the fluff that allows some variance due to ethos or availability of equipment.

BA used to be able to take Sanguinary Priests in numbers which often allowed most squads access to one. It played a huge role in their aggressive assault theme.

They could take Assault as Troops (which would give them the same perks as Troops). Vanilla Marines can do this with bikes (if commander is on bike) so why can't BAs do it with jump packs? It is a minor variance that made them unique.

The loss of Deep Striking Land Raiders was more fluff removal. Sure, most folks wouldn't drop a LR ever....but some do play the fluff. That option could have been left in.

The game itself has a big flaw that affects Assault based armies. The random distance roll. It could easily be fixed for Jump Pack/Fleet/equipment-based units: let them get a full 8" move while foot-sloggers get 6". Face it, Marines don't stop because someone trips - they charge full on. This one change would make Assault very relevant again.

Another change (pure fluff) would be the old random Death Company. Yes, it would hurt those that build full DC armies (they could get an exception) but it embraced the randomness of the curse.

The BAs could also scrap some characters that are useless in games (Sanguinor).

Give the Techmarine a beamer.

Return the Reclusiarch.

Make ONE Tycho.

These tiny things would return them to being unique instead of sub-par Smurfs that lack access ro EVERYTHING.

[Cleon]

Honestly for me it's just part of the cycle of poor game design that's caused me to play maybe 5 games (only one with my Blood Angels) since the codex dropped. Nothing I can do in the 'dex excites me and the random nonsense I see in the dwindling number of 40k games around here doesn't inspire either. I bought the two new Blood Angel squad boxes (Tacs and Terms) and enjoyed painting them, but other companies get my game money and game time at the moment.

[Defenestratus]

all i hear is salt coming from red marines.
the death mask is still op, you have unique variants of the predator, extra elites slots, you dont have to paint your models blue to get access to the mst versitile and powerful units i n your codex, you have advantages, kids.
so i nstead of getting online and crying how much your codex sucks compared to codex blahblahblah, maybe you should read yourdex and think critically. if youre that bent up about it, switch to the vanilla dex. enough said.

I actually don't mind most of the book honestly. It's just that it's original sin is the removal of what I loved about Blood Angels. The ubiquitous assault marine.

[Wolfshade]

Yes, I have come to love having my assault marines as troops :(

It is all part of the ebb and flow of the long war

[Lexington]

You're playing Blood Angels.

Not Space Marines.

Just Worse Space Marines. :p

[Wolfshade]

Just Worse Space Marines. :p

Red ones go faster?

[Cutter]

enough said.

Enough from you at least.

[Mr Mystery]

Just Worse Space Marines. :p

:p indeed

I dunno. It's one of the complaints (and not to say it's necessarily invalidated by my opinion) that irks me.

I'd hate to see the day when Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Woofs et al are just standard Space Marines but with brass knobs on. There needs to be some kind of availability compromise to help keep them differentiated.

[Anggul]

They just need to make all of the other marine codices expansions for the main one. Have them contain all of the unique units, relics, traits etc. but not the 'shared' units. That way when the 'core' Space Marines codex gets updated, all of the marines get those updates.

[Fanboy]

I still think that the biggest travesty in the BA codex is removing Assault Squads as troops.

Biggest outrage evah.

Correct. Plus, furious charge needs to be a standard + 1 str and +1 Ini, and Feel no pain just for BA's should be 4plus. Let's get back to BAs being feared in close combat......oh wait, the current rule set does not support close combat......what was I thinking........looking forward to 8th Ed.......I hope.........maybe.........

[Grudge-bearer]

Sadly, the only real way to get GW to listen and actually fix things is to hurt their profits. When sales plummet they then start paying attention to complaints. Until then the complaints mean nothing because they're cancelled out by the fan-boys who say GW can do no wrong.

Well, in reality ALL companies can, and often do, do wrong. Getting the company to fix their wrong is not always easy. I do guarantee that should folks stop buying any BA, DA, Tyranids or Orks before the end of the year GW would panic and start listening to players. Well, that or everyone at Games Day events agree to play by older, functional rules (2nd - 5th eds). GW would have seizures. But they also would see just how craptastic folks view the current edition.

[son_of_volmer]

Here's why the Blood Angels don't suck:

They can take a Death co. Squad (WITH JUMP PACKS!) and a Death co. Dred as Troops choices. They have three alternative force organisation charts. The Flesh Tearers Strike Force grants 6 Fast Attack slots. The Archangels Strike Force grants 16 Elite slots. The Baal Strike Force grants 4 Elite slots, and Red Thirst. On top of that, there’s the Blood Angels Battle Company that grants objective secured AND Red Thirst. Also they have the Angel's Fury Spearhead Force.

The Blood Angels get freebies too, there are the free upgrades for the Archangels Sanguine Wing, but the main freebie that everyone overlooks is the FREE RHINOS or drop pods that Assault Marines get. This alone has such value because there is no mandatory requirements to get them. I was also reminded that the Rhinos have overcharged engines.

My question is this: Would you discard all of these things for a single ‘hot’ rule granted by a Decurion Formation?

Do you want to know why Blood Angels can’t win? It's because they are red. [I learned this from the internet, here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X31K6jammH0 ] Studies show that in multiplayer video games Blue teams fare marginally better, because they remain slightly better composed. Being Red encourages rash behaviour and aggression. I feel the BA rules reflect that in granting bonus’ simply making aggressive moves.

1500pts The Freebie List

Flesh Tearers Strike Force
Techmairne with chain sword, bolt pistol and jump pack
1 Squad of Scouts
5 Squads of Assault troops in Rhinos, 5 man with 2 melta guns each
630pts [31 models and 5 vehicles]

Archangels Sanguine Wing
2 Squads of Vanguard Vets, each with Jump Packs, 8 power swords, 2 power axes, 2 lightning claws
1 Squad of Sternguard, with 10 combi flamer
1 Stormraven
860pts [30 models and a vehicle]

This list has 625pts worth of Upgrades for free!

[Charistoph]

:p indeed

I dunno. It's one of the complaints (and not to say it's necessarily invalidated by my opinion) that irks me.

I'd hate to see the day when Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Woofs et al are just standard Space Marines but with brass knobs on. There needs to be some kind of availability compromise to help keep them differentiated.

You would have hated 3rd and most of 4th edition, then. All the Variant Marines were set up that way till the Minimalist Period Dark Angels, including the Space Wolves.

And oddly enough, the two variant "Legions" that are noted for being codex-adherent with minimal changes get to stay out of the main codex, while one of the Chapters that is noted for being as unadherent as Space Wolves are put in. Talk about your weird perspectives.


Here's why the Blood Angels don't suck:

All their Blood Priests have cups. They are civilized vampires and so do not need to gain their sustenance directly from the tap when cups are handy.

[AlexRae]

Please don't put those silly Deathstorm Death Company data slates down as a positive.

It really is just plainly poor game design and studio management that homogenous things between the Space Marine chapters are different. The flavour should be in Chapter Tactics/special rules/formations and unique units, not having identical units which for some reason have different points costs and stats.

Really disappointed by this aspect of the GW studio at the moment. There seems to be no sign of a coherent game design ethos.

[Cactus]

I don't want to be an apologist, but there's a lot whining about the BA...

So far, the only real argument about points not being on par is valid because it was released so close to the SM book and it's odd that they aren't on par, but I chalk that up to being at the crossover point with the new formation heavy books. I think Deathstorm is a positive because it does give the missing elements and the Fleshtearer formation seems to be one of the most popular formations for allies in the game.

I overheard another veteran player giving a new player advice on how to build his army and that he should look at the units that make his army unique and focus on buying/painting/playing those units.

For me, assault troops not being Troops choices isn't a big deal, they work just fine in the fast slot (I like death company far more) and the other BA differences more than make up for it... 4 Elite slots, Dreadnought Librarian HQs, Heavy Weapons for 5-man Tac squads (including heavy flamers), an underrated spell list, and they have two of the best special characters (not to mention how awesome BA chaplains work with DC, and Sang Priests.)