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YorkNecromancer
09-06-2015, 08:00 AM
Frodo Will Never Get To Go To The Moon.

World-building: noun. The process of constructing an imaginary world, sometimes associated with a whole fictional universe.

In Which YorkNecromancer Meets His First Olympian.

I was never one for sports until I left school. Blessed with the stamina of a sad potato and the physical might of a bedridden sea cucumber, I could not be described as a natural athlete. Condemned to the bottom set in every PE class, I had to participate in no fewer than thirty two separate kinds of running alongside the other fat kids, asthmatics and genuine outright psychopaths. After playing rugby with a rat-faced lunatic who actually once tackled an opponent with a running shoryuken, the concept of sport went from something I merely disliked to something I outright despised.

Imagine my surprise when, after university, I discovered wrasslin’. The staged theatrics of faked wrestling were a sweaty revelation. Within a month, I could run for the first time in my life. After three, I was throwing two hundred pound men around like they were made of cardboard. Turns out I hated sports because they were missing a vital ingredient: violence.

And after I realised that, there was no stopping me.

That’s how I came to be talking to Cheryl (not her real name, obviously) about her time at the Olympics. Cheryl was not what you might expect of a legitimate Olympic athlete. She was head of history, and deeply unassuming. Five foot nothing and cloaked in a perpetual scowl, she lived every day of her life the same, regardless of rain or shine, failure or success: beginning the day in a state of general contempt, she would slowly move through scorn, derision, disdain and disapproval before finally arriving in condescension just in time for staff meetings. She could have won the lottery; the winning ticket would have been met with little more than a raised eyebrow and a cold sneer.

Needless to say, I liked her immensely.

After trying kendo, I had tried escrima. After escrima, I’d been fencing for about a year, and to this day, I still maintain that no other combat sport is faster. Boxing may require more resilience, MMA more tactical thought, but for sheer speed, there is nothing faster than fencing. Nothing. You’ve not seen speed until you’ve watched someone who knows what they’re doing flash across eighteen feet of floor towards you with two and a half feet of steel in their hand, all in less time than it takes to blink. It is a deadly, deadly style.

You just look like a bloody numpty while you’ve doing it.

http://usercontent2.hubimg.com/5338399_f520.jpg
Pictured: the only sport where standing like a monkey in the throes of anaphylactic shock is obligatory.

If I’m honest, I felt like an absolute idiot keeping my non-sword hand up in the air behind me unless lunging – I couldn’t get past the certainty that I was coming across as less ‘dashing warrior hero’ and more ‘prince of the fruits’. I mentioned this self-consciousness to Cheryl, who swivelled at me with the same kind of look that’s normally only reserved for men who dress up as Santa all year round. She stared me dead in the eye and it felt the temperature in the room dropped ten degrees.

“Well, when I was at the Olympics, if I’d fought any other way, I’d have been dead.”

“Cheryl,” I asked with no small surprise, “you were at the Olympics?!”

“Yup.” She replied, the weight of her unblinking eyes slowly turning into a physical sensation. “And let me tell you: if you worry about that sort of thing in a proper sword fight, you’ll be dead.”

“Why?” I asked, desperate to change the subject, to have her look away, anything so I didn’t feel quite so completely inadequate.

“Four nanoseconds.” She replied.

“What?”

“If you keep your arm up, then lower it when you lunge, it makes you four nanoseconds faster. Those nanoseconds are the difference between you hitting them, and them hitting you. So stop being such a bloody coward and keep your arm up.”

She turned and sipped her tea, and I found myself both grateful for this new piece of knowledge, and that I had already been to the toilet.

“How do you know the time so specifically?” I asked.

“We timed it. Needed to know; had to compare my speed to the other fencers.”

“Were you quicker?”

“Do you think I’d be here if I was?”

And that was when I learned what desolation really looked like.

Well, That Was A Lovely Depressing Story, But What The Deuce Does It Have To Do With Wargaming?

So Sauron’s in a lovely suit of armour, has a bloody great mace, and is laying waste to everyone. He’s Herohammering his way through an entire army of capital-m Men and the skies are black and damn, son, but he is evil like, for real.


And up steps Welshname, Son of Welshname, Heir to the Throne of Wales, and he’s all like “Aargh Sauron! Check it, fool. Taste these knuckles!” But Sauron’s all

KAPOW

And Welshname, Son of Welshname, Heir to the Throne of Wales drops in his plate armour and Sauron steps on his magical broadsword and Sauron’s all WELL WHAT NOW BRO? and Welshname, Son of Welshname, Heir to the Throne of Wales is all

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9nlq3vZP41rsmws3o1_500.gif
"Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch forever!"

“Broken sword, son!” and cuts off Sauron’s magic ring and then ten thousand years pass and everyone still wears the same plate armour, fights with the same broadswords, wears the same fashions and nothing, LITERALLY NOTHING has changed in the intervening 3,650,000 days.

Oh, it may say ten millenia have passed, but they haven’t. Nothing meaningful has happened in those ten thousand years. It might as well have been a hundred years. Or thirty.

Forget the dwarves, dragons, elves and leather jerkins. No significant change in fashions, music, culture or technology? In 10,000 years?!

That is f**king absurd.

Medieval stasis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MedievalStasis) is a trope that always wrecks my personal willing suspension of disbelief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief). It’s silly I know, but I just can’t get past it. I mean, I know it should be completely minor, that just saying ‘A Wizard Did It (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)’ should be good enough because the characters and their emotions are the important thing, but nnnnnnnnnnnaaaaaaggggghhhh!

Ten thousand years have passed! They should have invented spaceships by now! We’ve only had a thousand pass since men wore armour and we’ve cracked the human genome! Dragons are one thing, but ten thousand years of every single sapient species on the planet somehow not building on the successes and innovations of the generations that came before them?!

This is all I find myself thinking when I encounter this particular trope, and before anyone thinks I’m bashing ‘Lord of the Rings’, okay, I am a little, but only due to my very specific personal tastes in speculative fiction. See, despite one or two exceptions (primarily ‘Crank 1: Jason Statham Kills Everyone’ and ‘Crank 2: Jason Statham Kills Everyone Else’) when it comes to fiction, I generally like it hard.

http://davelandweb.com/celebs/images/1972_Deliverance2.jpg
Pictured: I will use literally any excuse to post this picture. So should you.

Hard vs. Soft

All speculative fiction, as I’m sure you’re aware, exists upon a scale. TV Tropes refers to this as The Mohs Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness), and to save time, I’m just going to quote them on the difference between ‘hard’ and ‘soft’ fiction:


Example: a character is shown a machine for traveling into the past and asks, "How does it work?"

In soft SF: "You sit in this seat, set the date you want, and pull that lever."

In hard SF: "A good question with an interesting answer. Please have a seat while I bring you up to speed on the latest ideas in quantum theory, after which I will spend a chapter detailing an elaborate, yet plausible-sounding connection between quantum states, the unified field theory, and the means by which the brain stores memory, all tied into theories from both Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking."

In really hard SF: "It doesn't. Time travel to the past is impossible." N.B. General Relativity allows for solutions for Kerr black holes where closed timelike curves, and therefore time travel, are possible. It is expected that a proper theory of Quantum Gravity will remove this possibility.

Now, we all have different tastes, and the type of fiction (and especially the tropes) you like will be no different; looking at my initial example, I’m sure many (probably most) of you ignore the medieval stasis in ‘Lord of the Rings’. Why? Because you just like everything else so much.

It bears stating: there’s nothing wrong with ‘soft’ stories. They’re no more inherently stupid than any other kind. ‘Hard’ isn’t an innately better style than ‘soft’, any more than Friday is better than shelving. It’s only one’s personal taste that makes either style stand out, and as we’ve already established, I bloody love ‘Crank 2’, one of the most unrelentingly stupid films ever released, so I’ve got no grounds to criticise anyone’s personal taste ever.

Now, 40K is a game which argues that in the far future, men will legitimately wage war by swinging axes roughly the size of a shed door into other men’s faces. These axes will have chainsaw blades in them, and be unironically named things like ‘Gorechild’ and ‘Gorefather’. Men who look after their army’s book collection will be capable of opening literal black holes roughly three metre across by thinking about it. These singularities will not destroy the planet they spawn on, along with the local star system and everyone in a 100 light year radius, but they will lead directly into a literal hell populated by lady daemons made almost 90% corset. So yeah, I think it’s fair to say that 40K is not hard sci-fi. In fact, 40K is a sci-fi setting so soft it could be made of cream cheese.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/1/1b/Angron_Primarch2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120629041033
Khorne: for when you want to bring a knife to a gun fight and WIN.

You may have spotted an obvious inconsistency in my tastes. How can I possibly claim to dislike ‘soft’ sci-fi, then make out that I like 40K? Because 40K isn’t a story. It’s a setting, and the two things are fundamentally different. A story has a narrative; a beginning, a middle and an end. There are characters who grow along sustained arcs, who develop and grow.

40K doesn’t have that per se. It’s less ‘Spec Ops: The Line’ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRy_dhn1FR8) and more ‘Saints Row’ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZaE7QkME38). Rather than a harrowing journey into the crucible of war that leaves you a hollowed-out broken husk, traumatically questioning your own morality, desperately searching for even the slightest remnants of humanity, 40K is a game of smashing Space Barbies together in the name of breaking things. Even in codicies, characters never really develop, learn anything, evolve or change except in terms of their statlines getting better at crumping stuff. (And note: I am talking very exclusively about the wargame here, not any of Black Library’s product lines).

For example, Ghazghkull is never going to meet a little girl who he has to care for and tend to, leading to a hilarious sequence where he’s got to disguise her in an adorable purple monster suit to hide her from his boss, all the while slowly learning a lesson about life, himself, and that scaring children by being a monster is a less effective way to power his city than getting them to laugh.

No, the only thing the Lord Of All Waarghs is going to realise is that the dobber he’s been using to crump skulls with becomes way more effective if he bangs a bloody great spike through it and renames it The Advanced Dobbing System.

http://i2.wp.com/willowhavenoutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/batchete-studio1.jpg?resize=576%2C384
Pictured: The Definitive Dobbing System – when words fail you, nothing speaks louder than thirty nine pounds of bladed hatred swung into an enemy’s face.

However, just because 40K is soft sci-fi, that doesn’t mean it couldn’t benefit from a little hardness. And that’s something we (as fans) can do for ourselves. Why?

Because even in a soft, non-story setting, hardness leads to interesting and exciting ideas.

Yes, I Know This Next Section Isn’t Perfectly Accurate, But Work With Me Here, I’m Writing In Broad Strokes To Make A Point, Okay?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2323/2153970868_622a0f89d8_z.jpg?zz=1

I think there’s a rule that says everyone who loves action when they’re a little kid decides, normally around the age of twelve, that katanas are the Greatest Swords In The World. I also think there’s a second rule that says that around the age of twenty, they have to get into super-serious arguments about this Great Truth, normally over beers. Not to mention a third rule that says that when they’re thirty, they realise that actually, katanas aren’t as great as all that.

Katana have so many myths surrounding their manufacture that the truth can be astonishingly hard to get to. However, a lot of the myths that sound impressive are not as impressive as they seem. For example, numerous historical accounts from both China and Japan claimed the katana capable of cutting through enemy swords, which sounds amazing. And there’s also a weight of evidence that bears this myth out. China’s standing armies were massive, and so therefore needed a huge number of swords. As a result, those swords were mass produced and made of cheap, inferior steel. They also had been treated in such a way that the blades were sharp, but brittle (because any time you make a blade harder, you lose tensile strength and vice versa). The katana, cleverly engineered to be hardened while retaining their tensile strength (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_heat_treatment), would smash them. So, an incredible myth that seems likely to be true. Impressive too… Until you consider that a modern piece of machined steel (with or without a blade) would probably be able to break those swords too. Why? Because modern engineering and manufacturing techniques are light years ahead of anything available during the time both types of swords were manufactured.

Like all weapons, the katana was a specific result of the economics and particular circumstances of its geographical origins. Japan was not a metal-rich nation at the time, and what steel there was was thick with impurities which lowered its quality even further (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing#Metallurgy). The much vaunted techniques of making them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing#Construction) were as much to do with dealing with the poor quality of the materials as they were producing the perfect sword.

As far as the era and location it was used in goes, the katana probably was pretty much the perfect sword. For a number of complex reasons, Japan didn’t develop or produce European-style plate armour; China was the same. After all, what was the point of armouring up its disposable peasant armies when you could take all the metal you were going to use for armour, and instead making another hundred blades for another two hundred terrified farme – sorry, brave soldiers? With so few soldiers in anything remotely approaching effective armour, in the East, a blade with a cutting edge retained huge utility. The locally-produced lamellar armour - a mix of wood, heavy fabrics and metal pieces – while tough, could still be decimated by slashes. The tip of the blade is pointed for stabbing, but you can see the way a katana is intended to be used from the curve to the blade. A curve is better for slashing than a straight edge, because it means that no matter where the blade connects, the smallest possible point will be touching flesh, therefore increasing the force of the slash. The comparatively heavy blade helps drive it through meat and bone. Everything about the katana is engineered almost exclusively to simplify the task of cutting people into pieces.

In short, it was an ideal design for the very specific circumstances of its time and the place of its creation… But if it had come up against European armies, it would have run into trouble.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFu11mSutd0

European medieval armour was really effective. As you can see in the above video, chainmail essentially turns cutting weapons into clubs. Plate armour, on the other hand, turns them into a joke. A fully armoured up knight would not have been at any meaningful risk from swords. Even arrows had a hard time; it’s why the English aimed for the horses rather than their riders at Battle of Crecy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy). After all, a French knight trapped under his own steed can’t fight back when you push your misericorde (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misericorde_%28weapon%29) up his armpit and into his heart.

That’s why, while Japan was creating the perfect slashing weapon, European weaponry cheerfully evolved down a completely different path. Where the Japanese soldiers had the option to cut their opponents into chum, European weaponry needed to be armour piercing. First, the heavy cutting swords became triangular, then finally turned into long, razored spikes, designed exactly to kill the enemies they might face. Broadswords evolved into rapiers.

Then, as their use spread, they became lighter, and faster. Fighting stances changed; compare the way a fencer stands when fighting with epee or sabre to a rapier – rapiers are all about maximum speed, because once everyone had one, well, that was how you won a fight; as Cheryl explained to me, it still is. You have to be in a silly pose, with your hand up in the air, holding a weapon as thin as a needle and as light as bone, all to gain those precious nanoseconds of time that mean it’s your life that continues, not your enemies.

You can compare the sword styles of Europe and Japan, and see the evolution of war there. Now, it's not to say that Japanese sword styles are slow. Japan has some horrendously fast techniques; iaijutsu is a style possessed of inhumanly terrifying speed… But comparatively, on an empirical level, it’s simply nowhere near as fast as fencing, because it didn’t need to be. Not when the opponent was swinging around a (comparatively) heavy lashing weapon.

Here’s the thing: all weapons are products of their time, place, and economy. So many factors combine, and people then develop things that work. Techniques, styles and ideas evolve within the limitations that the world imposes upon them. Things that work are kept; things that don’t are discarded. There’s a reason the SAS go to war with short, double-bladed daggers as their default hand-to-hand weapon instead of nunchucks.

http://www.damnlol.com/pics/108/9a4046b87b44f10a4bfabdf08af7b0ef.gif
Pictured: exotic weapon mastery.

There’s a reason no armed force in the world still uses the original, plastic M-16 assault rifle, and it’s the same one that keeps the AK-47 in ubiquitous service worldwide. There's a reason fencers keep their non-sword arm up, even though it looks ridonkulous. Local necessity defines form, function and success rate, and so two places can evolve radically different weapons, which are then used in radically different ways. If something is necessary, and it works, then no matter how absurd it is, people will use it.

And that’s something that Forge World really gets… Something that I would argue elevates their product above other game companies.

Forge World: Where Hardness Reigns.

The Siege of Vraks (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Imperial-Armour-The-Siege-of-Vraks) is an amazing setting, and not just because the Death Korps of Krieg still look utterly incredible. It’s also amazing because of the thought that’s been put into it.

Basically, Forge World wanted to do a 40K equivalent of the trench warfare of WW1, so they came up with this setting to do so. A chaos cult, led by an apostate preacher, sets out to seize the world of Vraks from the Imperium. They don’t count on the Death Korp, a culture whose language includes fifty three words for ‘attrition’, over two hundred for ‘glorious death’ and none for ‘common sense’. A war that, anywhere else, would be a swift military action, turns into a knock-down, drag-out slog. As each side slowly burns through resources, the fight claims millions of lives.

So far, so WW1. But how does this translate onto the battlefield? Well, for the Imperium, they start out with their standard Leman Russes, their Rough Riders, and at least nine hundred and forty one different kinds of artillery. By the end, the Russes are slag, the horses are all dead, and the only cannon they’ve got left are fired with gunpowder and crossed fingers. With all other options exhausted, the Death Korp dig the Malcador (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malcador_%28Heavy_Tank%29) out of storage.

Now, for those of you that haven’t seen it, the Malcador may perhaps be the ugliest tank in the history of 40K. Looking like the result of a shame-filled one-night stand between an artillery piece of limited morals and a brick with herpes, the ‘standard’ Malcador is a little more than a diesel-powered block of unrelenting hatred. With battlecannon in a limited-traverse turret, heavy stubbers in limited-arc sponsons, and a distinctly underwhelming statline. It’s not bad per se… But it ain’t good. Not when compared to a modern Russ. Oh, it used to be good; field it in a Horus Heresy game, and the thing’s a Fast Tank, capable of wrecking face harder than Brock Lesnar on a sugar high. But in 40K, it’s distinctly underwhelming. Slow, under-gunned, and far, far too big, it might as well have ‘TRY IT PLEASE’ written on the side in luminous paint.

Why have the Death Korp turned to it?

Because they had to. Because with all their other resources spent, they’re using clapped-out old tanks that haven’t been used since the days of the Heresy because there’s nothing else left.

So for me, despite The Malcador being basically a bit unimpressive, I think it’s actually kind of amazing, and that’s all to do with the background. Because it’s pretty much the very first Imperial Tank and Throne does it show. Roughly equivalent to the ‘Mother’ Tank Mk 1 used by the British in WW1, visually, and in terms of design. It’s also been designed to be clearly a step behind the Leman Russ – in the Heresy it may have been faster, but you can see: it was just too damn big. It can’t get cover saves the way a Russ can, nor does it have the 360 degree turret, or the younger vehicle’s more effective sponsons. To have this ancient animal show up in 40K as a burned out wreck of its former self?

That’s brilliant.

The ideas behind it are really believable ones. Realistic? No, not really. But believable. There’s more to the concept than a bit of casual handwaving. Forge World have clearly taken pains to justify the tank evolution of the Imperium… And I really like that.

As for the Chaos side of things, I think that’s just as clever. When the Vraksian renegades start out, they’re all full of blood and thunder.. So of course, they’re consecrated to Khorne. But then the war drags on. And drags on. And drags on. And all those Khorne worshippers go to be with their god, lost and forgotten amongst the other skulls on his throne, and the Khorne worship dies out. So the Chaos worshippers change. Horrible chemical and biological weapons have been used on the battlefield, people are dying of disease (just like in WW1, where, terrifyingly, a Spanish Influenza epidemic which was raging at the same time as the war claimed more lives than all the battles combined). In their desperation, the renegades call out, and Father Nurgle answers. By the final stage of the war, the Vraksian renegades have been reduced to a ruined, shambling horde of plague-infected wrecks, exactly in-line with the fluff as written. It’s logical, brilliant world-building, taking each element as it exists and using one stage to build to the next. Whether it’s for the Imperium or Chaos, I think those are thoughtful and clever extrapolations from the existing fluff, and honestly? I wish there was a little more of it.

Is ‘Emergent Warfare’ A Concept That’s Missing From 40K?

Alan Moore made the point that we're all 'crap superheroes' now; that we carry in our pockets the kind of smartphone supertech that Batman would have killed for in the Sixties.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/mprafrgruz3ygos6y05r.png
Although, to be fair, Sixties Batman was probably too into drugs to have made much use of it.

World building is the not-so-secret passion of nearly all of us, but you rarely see it admitted that what's a superpower for the rich one day is an entertainment for the poor the next. DARPA develop the internet to join us all together; we join together to play games and look at one another without our clothes on. Humanity is always, at the end of the day, a little less glamorous, and a lot less competent than we like to think we are.

The thing about sci-fi is that no sci-fi writer is writing about the future; they’re always writing about the time they’re living in. That’s because, while some technologies can be guessed at, and others inferred, it's actually really difficult to fully appreciate how modern technologies will get integrated and utilised.

Take mobile phones. An item beloved by Yuppies in the 80s is used to very effectively co-ordinate London’s rioters during the summer of 2012. Blackberry went from a tool for managing business meetings to organising mayhem of the most appalling sort: no-one imagined London's poor and disenfranchised youth anonymously co-ordinate napalm-hot pandemonium with almost literal military precision... But they did. The riots were so effective that the police’s response was to literally do nothing. They folded their arms and, like a father with a toddler having a tantrum, said ‘We’ll wait until he’s all tired out’. Mobile phones literally switched London’s Police force off.

I think that should always be the starting point for any kind of world-building, the idea that humans always use technology for wildly unexpected purposes, and I think it makes a great starting point for 40K.

See, there’s huge amounts of fluff out there already, and not a lot of it gets looked at ‘realistically’. There’s loads of little details that could be taken and spun off into all kinds of interesting little backstories, ideas, and developments for your army.

For example, the Big Four Chaos marine legions all favour different Astartes armour marks. Plague Marines like Mk 2 and 3 armour because it only has a single eyeslit, and thus makes them feel 'closer' to Plaguebearers. The Thousand Sons were all in Mk 4 because of their late entry into the Heresy; their entire Legion had done away with earlier marks of armour as they were inferior. The Emperor's Children are pretty much the only ones who tend to have later marks of armour, because they raid more incessantly than any other Chaos marines: they steal it from Loyalist chapters And as for the World Eaters? They love Mk 5 for purely practical purposes; it's cheap, bulletproof, and easy to replace, and that's all that matters. They're not interested in anything except functional armour that honours their god and keeps them safe. They also like the fact it overheats, for obvious reasons.

These little observations aren’t mine either, by the way. They’re Jes Goodwin’s – he released a book of artwork called ‘The Gothic and The Eldritch’, and these ideas accompanied his original sketches of the very first four Chaos Marines.

The thing about effective world-building is that at a certain point, it should stop inventing things from whole cloth. It should stop, and take stock of what’s been done so far and ask: ‘So wait: how would these elements interact with one another?’

Tyranids are highly psychic… So what happens when a Space Marine Librarian experimentally links himself to the severed, but still living head of a Tyranid Warrior in order to access the Hive Mind directly?
http://orig04.deviantart.net/663e/f/2015/247/e/f/tigurius_concept_sketch_by_yorknecromancer-d98d57r.jpg
Pictured: the dictionary definition of ‘a bad idea’.

Or what about the Dark Eldar Haemonculus who decides they want to try being the best at war and so turns themselves into a Talos?
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/MaltonNecromancer/Summer%20Holiday%202013/2013-08-21000319_zpsce7ded46.jpg
Pictured: okay, so that one *might* be one of my ideas…

Or what about taking something about 40K you love, and asking how it got to be the way it did? What came before it? What will come after?

Cultures aren’t static. Technology changes, and 10,000 years is an absurdly long time. What did the first Tau pulserifle look like? What were they shooting before then? What’s the next iteration going to be? What might a Dark Eldar rifle modified to hunt Necron hardened against corrosive weaponry look like? What might a Necron hardened against Dark Eldar corrosion look like? There are so very many possibilities, each informing the other, and every single one offers suggestions for a new model you could make, or a new army you could build.

I think what I’m saying is simply this: take what you’ve been given and run with it. 40K isn’t a story; it’s a setting and it’s ours. What can we do with what we’ve got so far?

Alaric
09-06-2015, 10:59 AM
Enjoyable read York.

Deacon Ix
09-07-2015, 02:24 AM
Enjoyable read York.

+1

kombatrok
09-07-2015, 03:39 AM
Joined the forum to say that this is a great post.

Although normally I am a skeptic and cynic I have always been able to gloss over the inconsistencies in the Lord of the Rings narrative. I think partly because I have a such fond memories of reading the books as a child.

I haven't actually played a game of 40K since maybe 4th edition I still collect and intend to start playing again after I get back to the States. Part of what drew me in to the 40K world was the ability to fill the gaps with background and narrative of my own invention.

One minor point though. In modern military parlance CQC is not really the same as hand to hand combat. So the CQC weapon of the SAS is still the C8 carbine not any kind of knife...

Mr Mystery
09-07-2015, 03:47 AM
joined the forum to say that this is a great post.

Although normally i am a skeptic and cynic i have always been able to gloss over the inconsistencies in the lord of the rings narrative. I think partly because i have a such fond memories of reading the books as a child.

Although i haven't actually played a game of 40k since maybe 4th edition i still collect and intend to start playing again after i get back to the states. Part of what drew me in to the 40k world was the ability to fill the gaps with background and narrative of my own invention.

One minor point though. In modern military parlance cqc is not really the same as hand to hand combat. So the cqc weapon of the sas is still the forehead to the nose and quick kick in the pills not any kind of knife...

ftfy

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 04:18 AM
another great article. while I was fencing many years ago people actually were dropping the arm thing altogether, in part because it is another valid target in epee and sabre, and people found it advantageous to keep it tucked away. there was also an experimentation in to keeping it down, and swinging up on the lunge, instead of the other way around.

as for world building, I have been churning over a future post apocalyptic setting for a while, and it is great fun trying to imagine what will develop enough to become simple and commonplace, and what would die out. what will people forget to be able to make, but what is crazy sci-fi tech to us that scavenging wastelanders will know inside out?

Mr Mystery
09-07-2015, 05:05 AM
There's also the repeated theme of lost technology.

Consider what the Romans had, and then was subsequently lost to the world during The Dark Ages.

Viking Steel was of a quality not seen again until the Industrial Revolution (seriously!)

Yet.....the stagnation is an important part of the setting of 40k. Only the Tau and Tyranids are truly innovating, along parallel but ultimately different paths. Mankind is held back by the Mechanicus and it's crazy 'new is bad, mmkay' reverence. Eldar? Well, I'm not entirely sure why they don't produce new stuff. Orkses? An odd one. They seem to invent when it needs inventing, and not a moment before - but given their massive success with 'just give it moar dakkas' that's surprisingly rare - though it may well be that Warbosses get jealous of Meks making it big, and soon have them crumped or at least banished, preventing the Mek attaining their full potential.

Otherwise absolutely spot on. It's not a story. At all. It's a big old sandbox for us to play in, and when that's on a galactic scale where 'because Magic' remains a valid (if overused) reason for something, there's nothing holding us back except our own perceived convention.

In a way, the gaming community by relying entirely on official rules risks becoming The Adeptus Mechanicus - a total fear of innovation and development, spurred on by the odd occasion where such things just made it a little bit worse.

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 05:13 AM
the Eldar are highly ritualised which is why they don't change, combined with an arrogance that their stuff is already the best anyway :p

kombatrok
09-07-2015, 05:31 AM
ftfy

Still better than a Canadian rifle :D

Mr Mystery
09-07-2015, 05:35 AM
the Eldar are highly ritualised which is why they don't change, combined with an arrogance that their stuff is already the best anyway :p

I guess. I knew there'd be a background reason, just (perhaps surprisingly, given how long I've been a 40k player) couldn't for the life of me think what it is.

CoffeeGrunt
09-07-2015, 05:50 AM
Good read as usual, Yorkie, and an interesting topic. I've been writing bits and pieces for a sci-fi story for a while, and setting is really tough to get right. For example, I decided that I wanted Mankind to have a fledgling empire of planets, interlinked by hyperspace-faring ships.

But then the tough part is trying to work out when such technology could even start production? Then how long would each planet have to be around to develop its own relatively distinct culture? Not only that, but how would human culture and technology progress in the meantime? What words would be created, what inventions or social conventions that we can't predict would be born? It's a headache and thus most of my writing has simply been reams of backstory and lore around various locales, colonies and factions in order to build a universe, before then setting a story in it.

I mean, as an example Halo still has soldiers armed with bullet weapons. Railguns are relegated to starships and static positions, and laser weaponry pretty much doesn't exist. It's set 500 years in the future, yet we're already starting to outstrip them in military capability, Spartan MJOLNIR armour notwithstanding. It makes it a little silly that they appear so far behind what we're already developing.

It's interesting that most sci-fi stories seem to introduce a regression before their advanced future. Halo had Mankind engaging in a civil war within the solar system over resources that was then broken when the Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine was invented. Star Trek has that atomic civil war that pulled humanity down before the Vulcans help them uplift, and 40K has the Age of Strife. I'm aiming to add an, "eco-collapse," period where climate change on Earth led to runaway extinctions and sweeping changes in habitability of various climes even as Mankind rushed to correct them. The end result was a slowing-down of technological progress, a massive population loss and Earth being a planet effectively on life-support, as much of the lost function of its ecology was replaced by machinery to process carbon dioxide, pollinate plants, etc.

Even then, at what level will AI be at, and what will the average citizen drive to work? So many questions that make it such a headache, but at the same time, it's a fun mental exercise.

YorkNecromancer
09-07-2015, 06:10 AM
One minor point though. In modern military parlance CQC is not really the same as hand to hand combat. So the CQC weapon of the SAS is still the C8 carbine not any kind of knife...

Thanks for the info! Sentence edited. :)

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 06:25 AM
Spartan MJOLNIR armour notwithstanding.

and the armour is pretty pointless in game, your only defence is the shield, not the armour :p

CoffeeGrunt
09-07-2015, 06:35 AM
and the armour is pretty pointless in game, your only defence is the shield, not the armour :p

Back in the days of Halo 1, you had Health and Shields. They simplified it after Halo 2. :P

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 06:43 AM
yeah I played them all, but didn't like any until Reach.

I think Mass Effect feels a lot more sci fi future than many other games, though Deus Ex is pretty cool. I like the moral question of Deus Ex, and the backlash of the human population

CoffeeGrunt
09-07-2015, 06:50 AM
yeah I played them all, but didn't like any until Reach.

I think Mass Effect feels a lot more sci fi future than many other games, though Deus Ex is pretty cool. I like the moral question of Deus Ex, and the backlash of the human population

Awww. Reach was good though, I liked the fighting retreat feel of it. Strangely ODST might be my favourite, though probably Halo 2.

Mass Effect does it really well because it only really makes up one technology, Element Zero, and then just has everything work off that. It's really well-constructed in that regard and probably the best world-building I've seen. Only complaint is that none of the alien species really feel alien. They all seem to just be humans in another form. Deus Ex is awesome as well, and set in an interesting version of the future. Looking forward to the sequel for that. :)

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 06:59 AM
Reach felt a bit more serious, and better put together, even when I was running around in my lovely rose pink armour. the tone of the previous games I felt was all over the place. Reach and 4 were great, though they still need to work on giving the weapons a bit of oomph, and the sound design needs major work.

it is true that nothing ruins a world more than inconsistencies within its' own universe. doesn't matter what rules you create for your world, I can get behind them so long as you stick with them. that is one of the major failings of the Metal Gear series, they are internally inconsistent, and that really ruins the whole thing for me.

CoffeeGrunt
09-07-2015, 07:22 AM
Yeah, Reach was a lot closer to the tone of the Expanded Universe, where it's a hopeless battle against stacked odds, with the UNSC always on the retreat winning pyrrhic victories. The whole arc of taking down the Long Night of Solace, only for a new fleet to arrive then crush New Alexandria as you try to cover the civilian evacuation was pretty great as a fan of the EU. The level new Alexandria itself really brings it across, as you can spend all the time you want trying to fight off the air patrols wandering the city, then a Covenant Battlecruiser flies over your head and glasses a distant sector of the city, reminding you that resistance is pretty futile.

Just a shame about how they handled Kat. Ah well.

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 07:24 AM
yeah that was a shame

MacKinley Johnston
09-07-2015, 07:48 AM
I've always wondered what would have happened if European armies had never adopted and thus developed the firearm. The early ones were pretty crappy compared to a long bow(and as a Napoleonic reenactor this 21st century red coat can tell you that they did not improve that fast until after the early 1800's). However they were cheaper and easer to manufacture than the master crafted long bows or even cross bows, not mention easier to train soldiers and they go 'bang!', which is always a huge selling point regardless of other factors.

However, if the standard had been set in a different way, if the English had kept those beautiful, and superior pieces of master crafted yew perfection, what would modern small, and even large arms, look like today and in science fiction? I think too often in fiction people consider technology a linear evolution and firearms a given in any development of a alternate or fictional history. It'd be neat to see something completely different.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry if that's got nothing to do with this but this awesome article just brought up that thought I've been mulling around in my head for years.

YorkNecromancer
09-07-2015, 08:47 AM
I've always wondered what would have happened if European armies had never adopted and thus developed the firearm. The early ones were pretty crappy compared to a long bow(and as a Napoleonic reenactor this 21st century red coat can tell you that they did not improve that fast until after the early 1800's). However they were cheaper and easer to manufacture than the master crafted long bows or even cross bows, not mention easier to train soldiers and they go 'bang!', which is always a huge selling point regardless of other factors.

However, if the standard had been set in a different way, if the English had kept those beautiful, and superior pieces of master crafted yew perfection, what would modern small, and even large arms, look like today and in science fiction? I think too often in fiction people consider technology a linear evolution and firearms a given in any development of a alternate or fictional history. It'd be neat to see something completely different.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry if that's got nothing to do with this but this awesome article just brought up that thought I've been mulling around in my head for years.

It's a fascinating thought; the English longbow was quite the weapon - especially when you factored in the 'alternate fire mode' arrows it used, like the armour-piercing bodkins and horse-killing broadheads. Plus the speed of fire means an arrowstorm is an utterly f**king terrifying sight to behold.

When you consider things like the fact Roman military weapons/strategies are so effective they're still used today for riot/crowd control (gladius/shield became nightstick and shield; shieldwalls still work the same way), there's a good argument to be made that maybe changes wouldn't be so extreme as people might first assume. It's always tricky to say, but there's probably some wonderful speculative fiction waiting to be written about it.

Kirsten
09-07-2015, 08:53 AM
hard to imagine the longbow improving a lot though, especially given that people have continued developing bows for sport use. longbows were supreme for a long time after guns were invented, but advancements in firearms have been rapid in the last century in particular.

YorkNecromancer
09-07-2015, 09:00 AM
Let alone developments in things like explosives... :(

Morgrim
09-07-2015, 09:03 AM
Firearms improvements lagged because metallurgy had to improve first. Longbows were potent because they nailed laminated composites centuries before we even knew what composites WERE, and again modern materials science has done a lot for the competitive bows. (The other big thrust being 'yes you can have pulleys on your bow', of course.)

I've tried writing a setting where firearms never really took off as antipersonal weapons, only as artillery. Instead variants of blowguns and poison (or darts and poison, or high tech elastic band pin-launchers and poison, etc) filled much of the gap. It's very hard tracking the progression of technology by making that sort of change.

As for the eldar technology being static: I think a chunk of that is due to generational inertia. In human cultures new and subversive tech is embraced mostly by the young; as the age and the older generation dies off it becomes more and more embraced. But eldar have trouble doing that since they live so much longer. It means they're less agile when it comes to new ideas. Tau advance so quickly in part because they don't live long, so there's less chance to stagnate. Dark eldar innovate much more out of darwinian reasons, but most of theirs is new ways to kill and survive each other, not spiffy new things for realspace raids. (And even then they do better than the craftworlders, really.)

YorkNecromancer
09-07-2015, 09:26 AM
As for the eldar technology being static: I think a chunk of that is due to generational inertia. In human cultures new and subversive tech is embraced mostly by the young; as the age and the older generation dies off it becomes more and more embraced. But eldar have trouble doing that since they live so much longer. It means they're less agile when it comes to new ideas. Tau advance so quickly in part because they don't live long, so there's less chance to stagnate. Dark eldar innovate much more out of darwinian reasons, but most of theirs is new ways to kill and survive each other, not spiffy new things for realspace raids. (And even then they do better than the craftworlders, really.)

That's probably as solid an in-universe justification as you'll ever get. :)

I think the Eldar are also victims of their real-world writers buying into the 'Elves are perfect' trope; of all the stock Tolkein fantasy cultures, the Elves are always the most inert because they're already portrayed as being at the 'apex' of technology/art/culture/etc... As if such a frankly asinine thing were possible.

I think it'd be nice to see more differences between the generations of Eldar. 10,000 years is a long time, and I'd love to see some FW Eldar for the Heresy-era. Obviously Shuriken Catapults existed, but what about the weapons that came before them? You could have super-lasguns in the same way Marines have Volkite technology. Maybe some highly indadvisable troop-portable D weaponry that was so dangerous they just decided 'Yeah, the guys who are already dead can carry that bloody thing, they've got nowt left to lose'.

Not to mention, FW redesigns of the Aspect Warriors? Yes. Now please.

You could also do all sorts of interesting things like pre-biotransference Necrontyr, or just-post-Fall Eldar. I think there's loads of options; you just have to switch off the stupid little voice in your head that says 'But the fluff doesn't allow it!'

This is 40K. If you think the fluff doesn't allow it, you've not been paying attention. The fluff allows everything if you can be creative enough about it.

Haighus
09-07-2015, 10:01 AM
Yeah, I reckon Eldar around the time of the fall could be really interesting- in some ways I can see it as a fusion of both the Craftworld and Dark Eldar technologies, before they split apart down different pathways- did DE use shuriken weaponry before they started to use spliter weaponry? Was there some kind of shared predecessor to both of them? Interesting stuff.

As for the longbow being replaced by firearms situation, I think another reason was logistics. Aside from the craftmanship required for making the weapons (and the ammunition too- arrows are much more complex than a ball of rock or lead or iron), good bows needed good wood of a specific kind- most yew wasn't suitable because yew is a naturally knotty wood and a straight grain with few knots was preferable. Bowstaves also don't last very long under the amount of use required to keep effective archers. So basically, a LOT of yew is required to maintain a functioning longbow equipped army. There is a reason that there are very few old yew trees left in the UK outside of churchyards, and England had a massive amount of trade with most of Europe for purchasing yew to import for bow manufacture. The country pretty much drained Europe of yew in a couple of centuries. I think at one point England was purchasing yew from the French to create longbows to then fight against them with.

Supplies for arrows was fine though, ash literally grows like a weed.

CoffeeGrunt
09-07-2015, 10:27 AM
Thing is war has always been a matter of a singular invention or innovation completely changing the landscape. Firearms killed the knight and the longbow once they reached fruition, then evolved into massed fire that was then countered by massed machine guns during WWII, which was in-turn countered by the development of the first tanks.

We often forget how sudden these changes were when looking back. For example, the old running joke about the French surrender during WWII is something you can use to test if a person knows anything about WWII. France had equipped itself with an almost perfect defense if Germany tried WWI again, the Maginot Line. It was the ultimate in entrenched, static warfare and would've given them the perfect defensive line to hold back the Krauts...

...If the Krauts hadn't innovated mass-tank tactics as well as comparatively fast tanks capable of handling the trip through the Ardenne, the only chink in the Maginot Line. Once the Germans were through they swept through France almost inexorably, because tactics for armoured warfare at the time were to deploy tanks in ones or twos with infantry support, so French tanks became horribly outnumbered and overwhelmed by Panzers. The mode of war was incredibly static, so the French had to rush to adapt to the German's speed and simply couldn't, orders to reinforce areas went out after those areas had already been lost, and the command struggled to effectively marshal their forces.

The Blitzkrieg, in one fell swoop, changed war forever. It showed that the old ways wouldn't work and the Allies would need to beat Germany at its own, new game. Then the Japanese at Pearl Harbor confirmed what the Allies were already suspecting at that point in the war, that air power was coming into its own and rendering sea power obsolete. Then, at the end of the war, the atom bomb simultaneously ended the war and also changed the face of war again. No longer did you need squadrons of bombers to cause grievous, inaccurate damage to a city. A single bomb can annihilate it all, utterly terrifying if you look at the amount of ordnance a typical bombing run used in those times did.

Then you have things like helicopters, Assault Rifles, SCUD Launchers and the other, little changes that create a new mode of warfare. It's hard to imagine a world so stagnant that a longbow would reign eternally supreme. At least, for me it is.

Haighus
09-07-2015, 10:34 AM
Hmm, that isn't the whole picture with the Fall of France though- most of France was still unoccupied, and there were still plenty of French forces left when Paris was taken. France had one of the largest empires on the globe, and had a huge navy, loads of provinces, and loads of troops scattered through it's colonies. It had the capability to maintain the fight past the fall of Paris, and the British thought France would continue, and actually landed again in south France after Dunkirk before it became clear the French were not going to continue. Yes, the combined French and British armies had been completely outmatched so far in the war, but there was no reason to think that was going to continue. France fell because of poor morale and weak leadership leading to a lack of wanting to continue the fight into total war as much as Germany defeating them militarily.

Mr.Gold
09-07-2015, 11:52 AM
Good read as usual, Yorkie, and an interesting topic. I've been writing bits and pieces for a sci-fi story for a while, and setting is really tough to get right. For example, I decided that I wanted Mankind to have a fledgling empire of planets, interlinked by hyperspace-faring ships.

But then the tough part is trying to work out when such technology could even start production? Then how long would each planet have to be around to develop its own relatively distinct culture? Not only that, but how would human culture and technology progress in the meantime? What words would be created, what inventions or social conventions that we can't predict would be born? It's a headache and thus most of my writing has simply been reams of backstory and lore around various locales, colonies and factions in order to build a universe, before then setting a story in it.

I mean, as an example Halo still has soldiers armed with bullet weapons. Railguns are relegated to starships and static positions, and laser weaponry pretty much doesn't exist. It's set 500 years in the future, yet we're already starting to outstrip them in military capability, Spartan MJOLNIR armour notwithstanding. It makes it a little silly that they appear so far behind what we're already developing.

It's interesting that most sci-fi stories seem to introduce a regression before their advanced future. Halo had Mankind engaging in a civil war within the solar system over resources that was then broken when the Shaw-Fujikawa Translight Engine was invented. Star Trek has that atomic civil war that pulled humanity down before the Vulcans help them uplift, and 40K has the Age of Strife. I'm aiming to add an, "eco-collapse," period where climate change on Earth led to runaway extinctions and sweeping changes in habitability of various climes even as Mankind rushed to correct them. The end result was a slowing-down of technological progress, a massive population loss and Earth being a planet effectively on life-support, as much of the lost function of its ecology was replaced by machinery to process carbon dioxide, pollinate plants, etc.

Even then, at what level will AI be at, and what will the average citizen drive to work? So many questions that make it such a headache, but at the same time, it's a fun mental exercise.


for a great Sci-fi read Alastair Reynolds works especially his Revelation Space series, very realistic and set only a few hundred years in the future.

Gothmog
09-08-2015, 12:48 AM
Amazing read, and for the most part I agree. Especially with the bit on vraks and the cultivation of the 40k setting.

I think 40k does handle the "fixed" aspect of technology in a very clever way though. The idea of making it that this in now the "Dark Ages" and everything has become so religiously dogmatic does this quite well IMO. Furthermore, the idea of the STCs providing everything you need for a culture so widespread, and then to loose them all, set this up as well. Not everyone had mechanical engineers or nuclear engineers as they spread to the stars. So there was nothing to build off of when the knowledge was lost. Imagine taking 3 million average people from today and putting them on an island, and in that group you ensured no on had more than a 8th grade understanding of Math and Physics. They likely wouldn't advance or contribute to the greater world, and in fact only regress if cut off from it.

Though, I do want to point out that the Rapier developed only as armour went away. And the armour only went away as Firearms were developed. At the same time, the Rapier did not become the main tool of war, but rather the Pike and Halberds and other pole arm weapons along with firearms/artillery, because being 4 nanoseconds faster doesn't matter when the guy and 20 of his friends can poke you with a spear from 15 feet away... while everyone else is shooting at you.

Furthermore, you can see how the Rapier died out in popularity and utility as combat evolved into the infantry man having a combination of firearm and spear/pike (musket with bayonet) while the cavalryman evolved to have a curved sabre. A weapon much like the Katana, which was not just designed for its practicality that you mentioned, but for its use from horseback, where all curved blades are advantageous over swift stabbing or heavy chopping blades. Why? Because of the relative motion involved. Slashing from horseback is far easier, and more efficient, than any other method (from horseback).

Psychosplodge
09-08-2015, 01:26 AM
Fascinating read as usual Yorkie. I lost my suspension of disbelief when it took three films to walk to the mountain but one cut to get home...

CoffeeGrunt
09-08-2015, 03:41 AM
Forge World fluff is great because they often go beyond the dramatic and heroic setpiece battles and look at the game of logistics and long, drawn-out battles in their Imperial Armour books. Vraks, of course, is the definition of long, drawn-out warfare, but even The Taros Campaign nicely gets across that feeling of the Imperium being steadily ground down and overstretched by the Tau.

Mr Mystery
09-08-2015, 03:49 AM
Yup.

I'm pretty mad up for anything Forgeworld produce. I know it's only rarely I buy models from them (it's the shipping that puts me off), but I'm happy to buy their books (and was even happierer when I could still grab them from my local GW. Sadly, no more).

The books are definitely labours of love. Whereas by necessity the Design Studio output is sales lead, and thus aimed at a wide audience, FW have the luxury of things like pet projects, and doing Historial Battles Wot Haven't Happened Yet type things.

Haighus
09-08-2015, 10:36 AM
Yeah, the detail in the Imperial Armour and Horus Heresy books is also amazing- especially in the more recent ones, where they go into the patterns and marks of the weapons being used by the troops on the ground, and they almost always mention the void combat related to the invasions in gaining orbit and securing logistics for the offensives. The other thing they do, is name-drop equipment and vehicles that currently don't have models or fluff, such as the Lucifer and Furibundus pattern Dreadnoughts which have been mentioned in a couple of different sources, and the Jocasta grav-attack, as well as multiple new warship classes. I think this just adds to the richness of the setting, especially when comparing the variety shown in the model range compared to the variety of equipment and weaponry in reality. Also gives them license to easily add new models in the future. Saturnyne and Arkonak pattern Terminator armour are other good examples (I really hope FW releases models for both of these). I can't wait to get my hands on HH book 6 when it comes out around November (seems to be the info that has come out of Amsterdam over the weekend).

benn grimm
09-09-2015, 06:51 AM
Interesting read as usual, just wanted to point out (and a bit surprised no-one else noticed) that you're way off on the LOTR. It was approx 3000 years after Isildur cut saurons finger off, that the LOTR story is set, not 10, 000, I guess you confused it with 40k?

Makes a massive difference, especially as the kingdoms of men, elves and dwarves have spent that 3000 years decaying, from a point of high civilisation to low, as such it makes perfect sense that innovation slowed to a crawl. The Roman Empire took a long time to die also, maybe not quite 3000 years, but they also didn't live for upwards of 200 years and/or live on an Island raised from the sea by the gods as reward for helping out the elves...

LOTR is actually a lot more 'hard' science than you give it credit for; Philology and Geneology, whilst perhaps not as highly regarded as physics or astronomy, are just as valuable. And LOTR is built on a solid foundation and understanding of both of those.

Otherwise, some interesting points and I never knew that about samurai swords, cheers for my new fact of the day.)

Mr Mystery
09-09-2015, 07:33 AM
For Samurai Swords, see also Game of Thrones, Season One when Ser Jorah takes on the rider bloke....

Alaric
09-09-2015, 09:49 AM
Fascinating read as usual Yorkie. I lost my suspension of disbelief when it took three films to walk to the mountain but one cut to get home...

I always enjoyed the "endgame" of LoTR where they go back home and find their village taken over then boot the guy out, it was unheard of for a story to do something like that back when I read tons of books. It was usually a Star Wars kind of ending, they win, celebrate, rinse repeat.

Caitsidhe
09-09-2015, 10:15 AM
Middle Earth is not a good basis for discussing technological advancement in a fantasy setting. The Elves did advance in their pleasures and pursuits but largely remained unchanging because they were created more or less in their final form. Tolkien's world isn't scientific. It is a creationist university wherein a supreme being creates what amounts to angels who in turn sing in harmony to create the world. Magic is ascendant and science is a sideshow. The great honing factors of the various civilizations is not subsistence strategy but grand wars and migration and the battle with what amounts to Celestial beings wreaking havoc on Middle Earth. Ideally, if it weren't for Melkor there would be no need for advancements at all.

benn grimm
09-09-2015, 10:24 AM
The messing around with time in the films killed them for me also, the books handle it much better. The scouring of the shire is definitely my favourite chapter and in many ways feels like the most real part of the story; it was no real shock Jackson left it out.

YorkNecromancer
09-09-2015, 01:01 PM
Middle Earth is not a good basis for discussing technological advancement in a fantasy setting. The Elves did advance in their pleasures and pursuits but largely remained unchanging because they were created more or less in their final form. Tolkien's world isn't scientific. It is a creationist university wherein a supreme being creates what amounts to angels who in turn sing in harmony to create the world. Magic is ascendant and science is a sideshow. The great honing factors of the various civilizations is not subsistence strategy but grand wars and migration and the battle with what amounts to Celestial beings wreaking havoc on Middle Earth. Ideally, if it weren't for Melkor there would be no need for advancements at all.

It's a perfect example, because it's almost the perfect 'soft' setting - literally, A Wizard Did It, which was the point I was making: there's hard and there's soft and neither is better or worse, but each can be used to inform the other and make the other better.

Middle Earth is simply a useful 'go-to' when illustrating the point, as I think it's a more well-known setting (and more appropriate for wargaming) than Doctor Who (which is the softest of all settings ever, no exceptions).

benn grimm
09-09-2015, 11:30 PM
'A wizard did it'? What?

I understand you don't want to let facts get in the way of the point you're trying to make, but you're talking rubbish (again), the authenticity and depth of Tolkiens world building is pretty much un-paralleled, and its all research based. You can dislike and discredit Tolkien all you want, but at least do your research before you trivialise something just because it isn't to your personal tastes.

Haighus
09-10-2015, 06:23 AM
Yeah, but the research it is based upon is mostly historic cultures, and those cultures don't change, or only incredibly little as suits a plot point. If you take one point in time- say just the LotR books themselves, then yeah, it is great world building, but once you take Middle Earth as a whole, then suddenly it seems very weird that the cultures are static, and the technology even more so. The Rohirrim are Anglo-Saxons with horses. But they are still Anglo-Saxons with horses hundreds, thousands of years later, when in the same time span the actual Anglo-Saxons had multiple changes in technology, culture and language.... Maybe it was the horses that did it?

Psychosplodge
09-10-2015, 06:26 AM
Why do you need technology when you have magic?

Haighus
09-10-2015, 06:37 AM
Well, aside from the fact that that validates the OP's point, isn't the fact that only a few characters within Middle Earth, certainly in the later books, are actually able to use magic a good enough reason?

Psychosplodge
09-10-2015, 06:38 AM
Not visibly sarcastic enough?

Haighus
09-10-2015, 06:39 AM
Not visibly sarcastic enough?
Oops.... <goes off to facepalm>

Mr Mystery
09-10-2015, 07:28 AM
Oops.... <goes off to facepalm>

I think you'll find that in my capacity self-appointed Inquisitor Lord Witch Smeller General For Life of the BOLS Kangaroo Court, you are sentenced to 5 mins reading the comments on the Daily Mail website.....

benn grimm
09-10-2015, 07:43 AM
Well Anglo-saxon culture was on the whole subsumed, whilst the people were essentially ethnically cleansed out of existence, barring a few difficult to reach parts of the uk and germania and a few who escaped to Byzantium, Ireland, Scandinavia etc. What they would have developed had they survived as a dominant culture is any-ones guess. Maybe there would be more places like the black country?

The Riders of Rohan have existed (at the time of LOTR) for 400 years or thereabouts, they are were a nomadic people, they settled in one place, yet kept the old ways, more like horsemen of the steppes than Angles or Saxons, they just look like those guys because Tolkien was probably a bit racist. Even today there are people in that part of the world living in the same way they did thousands of years before the birth of Genghis Khan. They may have mobile phones now, but they certainly didn't invent them. The native peoples of Australia happily used stone axes for 20,000 years, that's 7 times longer than the whole of the third age of middle earth.

The dominant cultures of today's world were (i would contend) special cases; England, Japan, America, Russia, France, Germany, Italy all underwent incredible change and accelerated growth, in incredibly short time frames, both in population, efficiency and technological advancement and mostly as a result of terrible strife and conflict. The fact that they dominate the world stage nowadays is no random coincidence. The other big world player nowadays is China, which is another great example of a civilisation which had a lot of early technological breakthroughs and scientific developments, but then stagnated and deliberately turned away from innovation.

Haighus
09-10-2015, 07:59 AM
The Anglo-saxon culture has directly followed through to become the modern English culture, our language is derived from it, and our law system and even our taxation system is based upon it. But it has evolved, it isn't identical. Also, what do you mean by ethnic cleansing? The Normans removed Anglo-Saxon people from most positions of power and authority, but they still relied on the people to do the dirty work. There were genocides such as the Harrowing of the North, but the Normans just didn't have the population to replace the people of England. They pretty much just swapped the ruling class and enslaved the populace. There is a reason why English survived as a language- the Nobles and Gentry spoke Norman French, and the peasants spoke English as they had done before.

Now, even comparing the 500 or so years that England was mostly Anglo-Saxon, more changes happened both culturally and technologically than during the same span for Tolkien- the people changed from a group of tribes into a powerful and unified nation-state.

I was under the impression that Tolkien believed the Battle of Hastings would have been won by the English if they had used cavalry, and hence he based the Rohirrim on Anglo-Saxons, but with cavalry.

The dominance of Eurasia over the other continents in today's world is a complex interaction of various factors, generally leading to the beginning of farming. Eurasia is basically dominant because it began farming first, and therefore increased in technology first. Now with that taken into account, yes, technology takes a long time to change initially- we used stone tools for a very long time. But once farming was discovered ~13,000 years ago in Eurasia, humans have since increased in technology increasingly rapidly up to our current level of reaching the moon etc. The cultures in LotR are all at a level of Europe over the past 2000yrs, so comparing them to cultures that are not at the same level doesn't really work. Yet, compared to Europe, those cultures have not progressed form that technology level over the same sort of time spans.

benn grimm
09-10-2015, 08:55 AM
The English are a mongrel nation of people, always were, always will be. And the Normans were a lot more thorough than you give them credit for by all accounts. There were places where the Anglo Saxons remained much as they were, but the population was severely impacted by the early years of Norman rule and immigration to England has always been high. English survived and flourished as a trade language and is still useful as such today. In a nation full of different nationalities it makes sense to have a common tongue.

The countries I mentioned specifically came together as nations relatively recently and in a very short space of time, industrialised and set about conquering the rest of the world. My point is they are the aberrations rather than the norm, we just think of them as normal because they won basically. The vast wealth and innovation of countries like England in particular, is built on good fortune, robbing other countries blind and spending nigh on a thousand years in a constant state of warfare. For me it is quite believable that people in other potential worlds aren't quite as bad as the b*stards in our own world who terrorised Europe (and the rest of the world) right up till recent history.

Haighus
09-10-2015, 09:14 AM
Yeah, but there is evidence of Old English surviving into use by the 13th Century, long after the Normal conquest (discovered by no less than Tolkien himself hilariously), so the original population existed within most of England far past William I. After all, what is the sense in replacing the population when you can just rule them? Someone needs to work the farms. They killed a lot of people during rebellions to keep the new territory in check, but it really was the ruling class that changed for the most part. The Anglo-Saxons that fled to those various places were nobles and some soldiers, not the commoners. English didn't survive just because of speaking a common tongue, it survived because most of the populace never stopped speaking it as it evolved into Middle English. Henry V was the first English king to be a native speaker of English since Harold Godwinson, so it was Norman French that actually gradually disappeared.

Anyway, the point is actually that the people living in England did evolve, their culture did change and become something both based in what it was, but also new.

Hmmm, that is a massive simplification of the 13000 years and more of history that led to those nations becoming industrialised and conquering the world though. They are a direct product of a unique set of factors leading to farming starting in the fertile crescent, and progressing all the way through wars and migrations and culture evolution to result in those nations forming and having the technology that was ahead of the rest of the world. Guns, Germs and Steel covers the whole topic very succinctly, great book.
That warfare has actually been very important in the development of Eurasia and the dominance of Europe- you mentioned that China had potential it did not realise in the past and stagnated, and it was likely the lack of competition due to the political and geographical isolation of China at the time, as well as it's political unity, that allowed it to stagnate. If it had had rival states at it's borders as in Europe, then deliberately blocking the progression of technology as some of the Chinese governments did would have resulted in China being rapidly outstripped and probably conquered.

benn grimm
09-10-2015, 09:41 AM
The language survived, as did some of the culture, but it was no longer the dominant culture and English is a combination of many different contributors, not just Norman and not just Anglo saxon. But regardless, the peasants, bless '[em, weren't the ones coming up with the cultural advances; not until they'd gone through Norman schooling anyway, which pretty much only happened if you joined the clergy, at which point you work for Rome, then the Norman king, then your countrymen.

Of course it was a massive simplification and no it is not meant to encapsulate everything that happened in those times that lead to those things. But I'm glad you've read Guns, Germs and Steel, I think our interpretations of the wider implications may vary slightly, but its good to know you're roughly on the same page. Maybe same chapter, but i'm sure we'll get there.)

Oh and China did get conquered, a few times, for precisely those reasons.

Haighus
09-10-2015, 09:59 AM
Hmm, I will agree with that, although many aspects of modern English culture are derived from that of the Anglo-Saxons (law being probably the most important aspect). I feel like only focusing on the cultural aspects of the ruling class is doing a disservice to the lower classes though- after all, it was the lower classes that preserved English, common law, the basic structure of English society. Tax too, although that is partly because England already had a very efficient tax system before 1066, why would the Normans change something that benefited them? :p

Well, based on the theory within Guns, Germs and Steel, I still feel like the Middle Earth is more static than it should be, especially that it is in a situation of near constant war itself, which is usually a great driver of technological changes. Middle Earth is like medieval Eurasia in it's technology and warfare, but never really seems to change from that, despite having similar resources.

benn grimm
09-10-2015, 10:14 AM
I think if you compare the men of Numenor with the survivors of the Roman Empire, who never really achieved a level of technology superior to their ancestors and the Riders of Rohan to one of the many tribes who used to inhabit the lands to the east of the russian empire it makes a lot more sense.

Maybe it was a fantasy of Tolkiens that the Anglo Saxons would've made great horsemen, but they never really were, certainly not in the same way as the Rohirrim. I think a better comparison for the English, French and Germanic peoples would be the Orcs tbh. I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that the word 'Orc' actually comes from the old english word for Norman and Viking invaders; 'the monsters who came from the sea' or something like that.

Haighus
09-10-2015, 11:32 AM
Well, apart from the Byzantines were using cannon, greek fire, superb armour and had some of the best science and technology in the western world by the time they fell to the Ottomans, there was significant technological progress there. The superior medicine and learning of the Islamic world during medieval times was inherited from the Eastern Roman empire, which also maintained and developed it until its collapse.

completeHook
09-10-2015, 11:39 AM
I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that the word 'Orc' actually comes from the old english word for Norman and Viking invaders; 'the monsters who came from the sea' or something like that.

It was in a 2 part docudrama about the Norman conquest on Channel 4 some time about 06/07.

I'm sure there is something in million or so (brilliant) "making of" documentaries that came with the collectors editions of the LotR about the Rohirrim being Tolkien's alternate history version of the Anglo Saxons who used horses for fighting rather than just getting about the place, but it is ages since I watched them so I can't say for certain.

YorkNecromancer
09-10-2015, 02:49 PM
'A wizard did it'? What?

I understand you don't want to let facts get in the way of the point you're trying to make, but you're talking rubbish (again), the authenticity and depth of Tolkiens world building is pretty much un-paralleled, and its all research based. You can dislike and discredit Tolkien all you want, but at least do your research before you trivialise something just because it isn't to your personal tastes.

Not trivialising; referring to a trope that I already quoted in my article: link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)

As has been stated, the world of Middle-Earth was created by a magical being, and has species of sapient life which have reached a stage where evolution of biology, culture, art, etc... is no longer possible (I'm referring to Caidsithe's earlier discussion point).

In a storytelling sense, the existence of Middle-Earth is entirely the result of magical/divine forces, which are empirically observable within that world - because magic is real, and divinity has agency within the world, it's very, very different to our world, and hence, soft.

To my (and I freely admit, completely limited) understanding of Tolkein's world, he based it on myths and legends and his interest in creating a kind of universal myth. Thus, a world rooted in the idea of a magical force which brings things into existence is very much a case of A Wizard Did It.

Yes, I know it wasn't a wizard, but that's the trope's name. :) And it's not an insult, any more than it's an insult to call 'Crank' an action film! :) It's simply a useful shorthand for the storytelling device that Tolkein employed. There's probably a more technical name (something grandiose-sounding in Latin or Greek), but I like to use the terms TV Tropes uses, because they're simple and easily relatable, and I'm trying to keep my articles similarly populist and accessible, instead of the execrable critique styles I used in academia.

I mean, I can do that if people like, but I kind of like making my stuff silly, rather than dry.


The Riders of Rohan have existed (at the time of LOTR) for 400 years or thereabouts, they are were a nomadic people, they settled in one place, yet kept the old ways, more like horsemen of the steppes than Angles or Saxons, they just look like those guys because Tolkien was probably a bit racist.

Oh, absolutely, but that's because he was a product of his time and the ideas that existed then. However, compare him to someone like H.P. Lovecraft, who was openly racist and blatantly terrified of mixed-race unions, and I think it's fair to say Tolkein comes off okay.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I do love me some Lovecraft... But he was a big old racist.

I still love the apocryphal stories about him casually entering into a rant about how awful those Jews were, only for his Jewish wife to politely reprimand him and remind him who he was married to.

My dad's wife used to do JRR Tolkein's tax returns, back when she was in her very early twenties. Apparently, his yearly income looked like this:

January - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
February - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
March - ALL THE MONIES IN THE WORLD FROM BOOK ROYALTIES.
April - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
May - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
June - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
July - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
August - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
September - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
October - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
November - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
December - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.

Haighus
09-10-2015, 02:57 PM
I still love the apocryphal stories about him casually entering into a rant about how awful those Jews were, only for his Jewish wife to politely reprimand him and remind him who he was married to.
For real? I don't even understand how someone can be such a walking paradox!


My dad's wife used to do JRR Tolkein's tax returns, back when she was in her very early twenties. Apparently, his yearly income looked like this:

January - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
February - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
March - ALL THE MONIES IN THE WORLD FROM BOOK ROYALTIES.
April - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
May - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
June - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
July - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
August - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
September - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
October - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
November - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
December - a pittance from Cambridge University for lecturing duties.
Haha

YorkNecromancer
09-10-2015, 03:02 PM
For real? I don't even understand how someone can be such a walking paradox!

As far as I know. :)

completeHook
09-10-2015, 03:02 PM
All his mates from his adolescence where killed in the First World War so he carried on what they were doing, creating fantasy worlds, but with an underlying message against the evils of industrialised warfare (even the greatest warrior can be felled with a single arrow[sic]).

benn grimm
09-10-2015, 04:18 PM
Hmmm, still not convinced; I'd say a creation myth based on the harmonising of celestial music is about as close to a big bang theory as you can get whilst writing in the style of a medieval saga, got to keep the tone n all...

I suppose it is magical, in the same way that God or Jesus is magical...ie, if that is your interpretation, to me, this 'wizard did it' trope is where magic is given as the only necessary explanation, whereas Tolkien takes his invented explanation back as far as is possible. And to be fair, even we, at the pinnacle of our enlightenment still don't really understand what happened at the very start; maybe Tolkiens explanation is as good as any other.

As a quantum physicist was saying the other night on telly, the religions didn't get it wrong per say, they just didn't get all of it. And a lot of that comes down to vocabulary.

Morgrim
09-11-2015, 09:25 AM
If you read the Silmarillion there are more creationist themes in it. Especially the repeated theme that going against the will of the gods is a Bad Idea and will get you and your entire family line cursed. Which drives much of the plot of everything, right up until Sauron declares himself openly as the current big bad. At that point it seems that the gods have thrown their hands in the air and decided they've had enough of this, Middle Earth can sort its own mess out.

(Possible exception being them sending the wizards over to Middle Earth to assist with the collective 'pull yourself together' instructing, although in the end that doesn't achieve much. For everything useful Gandalf did, Sauruman did something that made things worse, and the other three also gave up and stopped getting involved.)

YorkNecromancer
09-11-2015, 12:56 PM
, to me, this 'wizard did it' trope is where magic is given as the only necessary explanation

Not really. The 'A Wizard Did It' trope is shorthand for saying 'Stop asking how this all came to be; how this all came to be is not important in the context of the immediate story. Focus on the characters!'

So for instance, in the film 'Short Circuit', how does Johnny Five become alive? 'A Wizard Did It'.

Now, it's actually a lightning bolt, but given that hitting a computer with a lightning bolt's worth of electricity will do nowt except burn the thing out, I think we can agree, that the answer to 'How does Johnny Five become alive?' is basically 'magic'.

Or, perhaps a more lengthy answer might be 'It doesn't matter. How he is alive is irrelevant. All that matters is that he is, because we want to tell a story that examines the consequences of being a robot who is sapient and sentient, and this is the simplest plot device that enables us to do that, because we don't actually know how a robot could become sentient and sapient, and it's honestly not all that important to us.'

Saying 'A Wizard Did It' is basically saying 'look, stop thinking about this so hard; the story of the event's effects is more important than the mechanism by which those effects came to exist'. It's actually got precious little to do with magic. :)

benn grimm
09-11-2015, 01:45 PM
I think I'm getting it...;) But still my stubborn-sense is tingling, I think what I'm trying to get at is that the Tolk-meister does explain how everybody got there; god made music; and it was good, more music made more music, it was also good, the worlds was created... I say all this because I feel at its heart LOTR is quite mindful of giving explanations, stuff doesn't just happen just because. It does matter why stuff is as it is. It's not Asimov, but its not Bill n Ted either. The science is better hidden, but thats all to the better of the tone (again, if you like that sort of thing).

Its definitely creationist if taken in the context of now, in our world, the main difference being that in the middle earth world (Arva?) the world really was made by god, whereas in our world it most likely probably wasn't. And it definitely didn't happen in 7 days. I expect...;)