Is 30k better than 40k?

[DaveTycho]

A few days ago, Larry Vela posted an editorial about the potential rules change for Horus Heresy games before the release of book VII, and with that release rules for the last two legions to be given rules for (the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves). Essentially Larry wants a complete rules set to field all 18 space marine legions within the 40 7th edition rules framework before any rules changes affects the whole of the Horus Hersey set up. The thing I noticed is his claim- a claim also made by others- is that 30k is perfect the way it is.

I am curious as to why that is the case.

Obviously there are good reasons to why people believe this. I'm not promoting that 30k is better than 40k or vice versa, or advocating any rules changes. I want to start a discussion on the differences between the two sets. Also I'm writing this article from a position of ignorance, having played little of 30k, and not owning books IV and V, so please bear with me and if I'm wrong about anything post it here. The point I'm trying to bring up is that 30k isn't its own game with its own rules, but an expansion of the 40k rules.

We all know that 40k has its problems; from broken armies to deathstars, invisibility to D-weapons, formations to superheavies. The thing is that everything wrong with 40k is also included in 30k too (well except formations, unless they got included in the newer books or something, someone will probably tell me I'm wrong). D-weapons in 30k? Yes. Knights in 30k? Yes. Deathstars in 30? Yes. Alternate force org charts in 30k? Yes.

So why is 30k so cherished while 40k is *****ed on about? Functionally, whatever you could do in 40k you could also do in 30k too. From my subjective point of view there are only two differences between 40k and 30k: the army lists, and the players.

First off, the army lists, and I say that, I mean space marines, the mechanicum, the solar auxilia, and the cults and militias. These are obviously an important reason people would suggest as to why 30k is good as it is game wise. Reading through the rules, the units and options available feel more balanced and tight than regular 40k lists. There is little that stands out as OP'ed or stupid. But like I said, every abusable option you could do in 40k you could do in 30k too. Except that it is harder to do so. Lords of War are restricted to 2000pt+ games with a percentage limit; allies are limited with fewer factions to choose from; hell even D-weapons have an optional nerf outside apocalypse. Harder, but not impossible. There are combos and rules that can be broken, you can face an army with some from of LOW that you can't deal with, and D-weapons can still wreck stuff if both players forget to use the optional nerf. Has anyone even tried to play 30k with a normal CAD or even unbound?

This brings me to my second point: the players. Are they different somehow to the rest of the regular 40k players? Do they care more about having a fun game than smashing their opponents' armies in as short a time as possible? Are there even any 30k jerks out there fielding jerk army lists? Do people who play 30k choose not to max out on the worst cheese possible? Honestly I don't know. Like I mentioned before I have little knowledge playing Horus Hersey with others, so my opinions here are purely subjective. From what I have seen people ***** more about how broken X rule is or how overpowered Y army is in 40k than what is said in 30k. Again I could be wrong about this, so say so if I am.

Before I finish this post I will ask my questions again and leave it to everyone else: why is 30k great right now even though it shares the exact same rules with 40k, which people consider a mess? Is 30k far more balanced with its army list building and difficultly in abusing them? Are the players attitudes different in that it's more play for fun rather than play to win to them?

And one final question that should be asked: for some reason people don't want 40 and 30k to be mixed. Many claim that 30k doesn't scale down well in smaller games. But with the average points sizes for games being 1850-2000pts, and 40k seemingly encouraging larger games, would scaling be a problem anymore? More importantly, how would the two different armies fare? Would a 30k list be fairer than a 40k list? Would a 30k army struggle against 40k shenanigans?

[Edit] I want to point out that while fluff/nostalgia are very good reasons why Horus Heresy is popular, I am only interested in comparing 30k to 40 purely from a rules and gameplay standpoint. The point I'm trying to bring up is to discuss whether or not 30k can be just as abusable as 40k is and if players are just as likely to abuse any loopholes or advantages as they are in 40k. Also suggesting that 30k is balanced because it's marines bs marines isn't as true as people think. Just because both sides can field the same options doesn't mean that they do, and when that happens is the game still as balanced, or does it then veer into "bad 40" territory where broken units and cheese rules.

[Charon]

Basically because 30k is Infantry heavy and everyone has access to everything.
Ultramarines bring a Knight? Don't worry Alpha Legion has one too.

On the bottom line it is Space Marines vs Space Marines which is also balanced in 40k.

[Master Avoghai]

30k is a game opposing imperium army vs each other's, hence using the same weaponry and more or less the same profiles. It's easier to balance. Like Charon said : everyone has access to the same options.

40k is a game based on imperium vs xenos races. The range of profiles is wider as is the type of weapons.
If you play a game of 40k only including SM (+ codex like Da or SW), IG and chaos SM, your games will be more or less balanced. Moreover, if GW would do so, the updates would be easier : IG players wouldn't have to wait for ages their codex being updated with new formations in line with SM ones for ex.

If you introduce eldar, necrons and orks in the equation, you have lots more of weapons profiles => more chances to make an error regarding effect/cost. And that's what happened. The Gap between the eldar codex and the orks codex is far wider than the gap between the imperium + chaos codex.

Maybe players have their impact too, lots of them are fluff fan that like to recreate mythic battles and tired from the weapons race in 40k. And scenario/campaign based battles needs more discussions and pre battle discussions often prevent deception of an unfair game.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You have to make a compromise somewhere along the line between having every faction play in a completely different way with their own flavour as far as approaching problems - like anti-AV14, say - while also making sure that it doesn't result in a rock-paper-scissors gameplay style where something like Dark Eldar poison spam trounces Tyranid MC spam, or Guard Conscript spam gives an elite Grey Knights list a headache.

Many games make their stand somewhere along that line. Infinity is pretty much entirely Infantry as far as I've played, with no vehicles and slight variation in play style. WarmaHordes is very rock-paper-scissors at times and is combo-oriented, though a Warjack from one army plays fairly similarly to a Warjack from another army, and Colossals just feel like big Jacks with a couple of extra special rules.

Age of Sigmar goes the other way by opening up to a lot of flavour and options, while basically disregarding balance entirely. There are people who hate that, and people who love it. There are people who hate WarmaHordes and people who love it. GW chose one position on that line which leans more towards variety than balance, whereas Forge World with the Horus Heresy series were pretty much solely making Marine forces until very recently.

[Defenestratus]

No. 30k doesn't have xenos, it therefore is an inferior product no matter how much better its rules may be.

A game is more than the sum of its rules.

[Mr Mystery]

You have to make a compromise somewhere along the line between having every faction play in a completely different way with their own flavour as far as approaching problems - like anti-AV14, say - while also making sure that it doesn't result in a rock-paper-scissors gameplay style where something like Dark Eldar poison spam trounces Tyranid MC spam, or Guard Conscript spam gives an elite Grey Knights list a headache.

Many games make their stand somewhere along that line. Infinity is pretty much entirely Infantry as far as I've played, with no vehicles and slight variation in play style. WarmaHordes is very rock-paper-scissors at times and is combo-oriented, though a Warjack from one army plays fairly similarly to a Warjack from another army, and Colossals just feel like big Jacks with a couple of extra special rules.

Age of Sigmar goes the other way by opening up to a lot of flavour and options, while basically disregarding balance entirely. There are people who hate that, and people who love it. There are people who hate WarmaHordes and people who love it. GW chose one position on that line which leans more towards variety than balance, whereas Forge World with the Horus Heresy series were pretty much solely making Marine forces until very recently.

Pretty much this.

AoS is an entirely narrative driven game. And not just the narrative of the battle, but the 'narrative' between the players to agree when the two forces, in combination with the scenario rules and victory conditions feel 'about right'. This will of course appeal to some gamer whilst being anathema to others.

Bright side? Gamers do what gamers do. There's already a few 'work in progress' threads about assigning points values for those who want to check it out. Agree or disagree, just keep comments constructive if you wish to contribute :)

But there's also a decent slice of Defenstratus' point about 30k. Whilst I prefer it to standard 40k, the genuine lack of variety limits the games wider appeal. In a sense, it's closer to Warmachine than 40k. Blue Marines with Blue Marine only spangles against Pale Cream Marines with Pale Cream Marines only spangles, with the occasional bunch of baseline humans wondering just what it is their commander hopes to achieve deploying them against the Legionnes Astartes.

But, Horus Heresy is very much narrative driven. Every battle is part of wider war, and it's a clearly defined war at that. For me and my gaming buddies, that's a big part of it. Those who love painting like to go for full squad markings, honour badges and that accurate to the particular theatre of war they want their force to be from and so on.

40k however? The base setting is a sandbox, and requires the players, if they want such a thing, to set their own parameters.

[40kGamer]

No. 30k doesn't have xenos, it therefore is an inferior product no matter how much better its rules may be.

A game is more than the sum of its rules.

30k could have xenos they've just skirted around them to focus on the Heresy. From what I've seen it is far better suited to random pickup games and events then 40k has been in a long time... of course after GW proper gets their dirty paws on it this may all go out the window.

[CoffeeGrunt]

IIRC, Forge World's justification is that the HH is set during the era of Mankind's greatest strength as an Empire. There's no Xenos that can threaten them, even the Eldar and Orks are being swept aside during the expansion.

[Alaric]

Played a bunch of 30k and years of 40k. The FOC chart and the rights of war seem to be just right in creating equal opportunity lists that result in decent, fun games, even with roid raging primarchs fighting it out midfield and ranged D weapons everywhere.

It IS missing that extra little flavor that 40k provides in having Xenos. Yeah its fun to play 30k and go pew pew but the variety of the xenos puts meself more often playing 40k.

[Denzark]

Basically because 30k is Infantry heavy and everyone has access to everything.
Ultramarines bring a Knight? Don't worry Alpha Legion has one too.

On the bottom line it is Space Marines vs Space Marines which is also balanced in 40k.

Partially - although I went up against a Knight in a necron army last time at Throne of Skulls. Actually, the narrative campaign just gone, my mate saw an Eldar army that took Knights. FFS. Eldar. Took Imp Knight and not a Wraithknight.

So, in unbound 40K, everyone has access to everything.

[YorkNecromancer]

30K has a number of things 40K doesn't which weigh BIG in its favour:


Nostalgia factor - all those FW designs based on the original Rogue Trader models? They're the number 1 reason I care about HH.
Marines - I bloody love marines, and so do a lot of other people. Lest we forget, the reason people complain about marines is largely because they see them so often. The people who complain loudest about marines therefore aren't playing them, and therefore have to be in the minority, or else they wouldn't have anything to complain about, because marines would be Just Another Army. But HH is almost pure marines, and that's got a huge appeal to people like me.
The Special Snowflake Chapters get their day in the sun - No-one publicly likes Ultramarines; everyone's gotta be different, and HH offers not only an absurd number of new marine Legions, it gives them special rules, unique units, names characters. Iron Hands! Raven Guard! And then, it actually manages to make the Ultramarines cool, by playing up the stuff that makes them different, and putting them in a fight with the Word Bearers, a villain worthy of them. And because the Ultras are only a small part of the Heresy, they don't/can't dominate it.
Chaos models aren't stupid looking - I mean, this one's mostly me, but I f**king hate the 'Iron Maiden album cover' look that 90% of Chaos Marines have. HH-era Traitors are basically marines but genuinely evil-looking, especially those Word Bearers. They're genuinely horrifying. This is a Good Thing.
Big stuff - HH is optimised for 3000 point battles which include at least one Lord of War. And let's be fair, everyone loves the big stuff. From superheavies to Primarchs, everyone loves the idea of owning and fielding something world-endingly massive. HH encourages this in a way 40K doesn't, because 30K was designed for it.
Lack of a tournament scene - Tournament players tend to be the most vocal group about their likes/dislikes, because the issues of balance matter to them more than friendly pick-up players. HH isn't really played in tournaments, because of the tournament phobia of FW, and so the game skews more towards friendly pick-up players who are more inclined to speak positively about their experiences, because they're generally less worried about the game.
Awesome stuff - the AdMech. Come on, HH is where they started. You telling me we'd ever have had the AdMech in 40K if the HH stuff hadn't sold massively? There's a huge amount of non-Astartes stuff in the HH books, from the varied Knight households to the Solar Auxilia, to three separate and quite distinct AdMech lists.



And what counts against HH?


Lack of Xenos - yeah, it'd be nice to have Heresy-era Xenos, but really, how different are they going to be to their 40k versions?
Absurd prices - but GW have cranked theirs up through the roof in recent years, and so FW have become roughly comparable.
Lack of a tournament scene - but this is a plus for some/many.


So why is HH sacrosant when 40K isn't?

It's basically a very different beast.

[Cactus]

30K has a number of things 40K doesn't which weigh BIG in its favour:

I think you've also forgotten the excellent support from the Black Novel series.

[Gamgee]

Ugh space marine wank 30k. No thanks. The price doesn't help it. It's funny me and my cousin IRL were just laughing about how over rated space marines are. He's an IG man till the end.

I'm one of the few players who doesn't like 40k because of the Imperium or Spezz Marines. I'm all about the Xeno's and bad guys. I'll even consider chaos over the Imperium.

[VarianceHammer]

One of the other factors is likely just the attitude of the people playing Horus Heresy. Between the cost, the difficulty of doing so, and the lack of an active tournament scene, there's much less incentive to try and snap balance like a twig.

[YorkNecromancer]

It's funny me and my cousin IRL were just laughing about how over rated space marines are.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9a/b9/04/9ab9043300e9ff79b330d68889ea3a3d.gif

Like, I get that statistically, there have to be people who think that way. And, you know, fair play to you - everyone's entitled to like what they like. But...

Man. That's like hearing someone buys a Cornetto to eat the cone and leave the ice-cream. I can kind of see why they might feel that way, but I can only manage to in the most abstract possible sense.

[Filthy Casual]

One of the other factors is likely just the attitude of the people playing Horus Heresy. Between the cost, the difficulty of doing so, and the lack of an active tournament scene, there's much less incentive to try and snap balance like a twig.

Which is why plastic HH worries me, you already see "That Guy" trying to uses current Mks to save cash and jump in with his broken list to crush all the fluff bunnies, making it accessible to more of those people that want to play a game only to beat other people is worrying, I've yet to see HH played with unpainted models and that's part of that I love about it.

[Chris*ta]

30K has a number of things 40K doesn't which weigh BIG in its favour:
3. The Special Snowflake Chapters get their day in the sun - No-one publicly likes Ultramarines; everyone's gotta be different, and HH offers not only an absurd number of new marine Legions, it gives them special rules, unique units, names characters. Iron Hands! Raven Guard! And then, it actually manages to make the Ultramarines cool, by playing up the stuff that makes them different, and putting them in a fight with the Word Bearers, a villain worthy of them. And because the Ultras are only a small part of the Heresy, they don't/can't dominate it.

Huh? It offers 18 Chapters (Legions, I know, shut up.) And they're all already available in 40K, in largely the same configurations. There are over a hundred chapters available in 40K, plus the opportunity to make up as many more as you want.

I think what was kind of revolutionary about GW was that they encouraged players to make up their own colour schemes and background. In 30K, you don't get that opportunity.

[Filthy Casual]

HH is more of a historical style war game, in that, like Napoleonics, you're reenacting battles that happened, the end result is known, Horus will die and the Emperor will become a barely alive sack of meat and a glorified psychic lighthouse. When played in that style, that you're picking forces to replay the battles you read about in the background or ones that weren't written about, its a really great game. Its really abusable though (like any wargame) and there are a few jerks playing it (look at how many people suddenly abandoned their "Totally fluffy and justifiable Twin Plasma Pistol Mortariat" as soon as it got nerfed from being a death machine) who don't care about the fluff or the setting.

[DaveTycho]

On the bottom line it is Space Marines vs Space Marines which is also balanced in 40k.[/QUOTE]

While that's true for the most part, it isn't entirely space marines vs space marines. There is also mechanicum and solar auxilia too. They are different forces with different playstyles compared to space marines. That would alter the game balance a bit.

[Filthy Casual]

Even Space Marine vs Space Marine isn't that simple when each legion as a lot of special rules and units that can totally change how they play

[DaveTycho]

I agree that a smaller pool of variety creates a less of an imbalance, but that's not what I'm trying to point out here. Obviously GW has issues balancing out its 40k armies because it's much harder keeping track of all the factions than FW does with 30k. Things that cause problems in 40k (invisibility, D-weapons, OP units, etc) exist just as much in 30k, yet seems less of an issue. I am trying to ask why that is the case.

- - - Updated - - -


No. 30k doesn't have xenos, it therefore is an inferior product no matter how much better its rules may be.

A game is more than the sum of its rules.

There is no functional reason why you can't play 30k against eldar, orks, tyranids or whatever. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool.

[Mr Mystery]

Fairly simple really - equality of opportunity.

Every Legion has a Primarch it can field.

Every Legion has the same access to the same toys in the same ratios at the same points.

Every Legion has access to unique spangles, none of which so far I would say are particularly outstanding from their peers in terms of what they can do.

Reflect against 40k. Is the complaint genuinely that Eldar can field an awful lot of Strength D, or is it that nobody else can? Were people upset that Necrons had wide access to a pair of very useful fliers or that the AA capabilities of most armies at the time were negligible to non-existent?

[DaveTycho]

Fairly simple really - equality of opportunity.

Every Legion has a Primarch it can field.

Every Legion has the same access to the same toys in the same ratios at the same points.

Every Legion has access to unique spangles, none of which so far I would say are particularly outstanding from their peers in terms of what they can do.

Reflect against 40k. Is the complaint genuinely that Eldar can field an awful lot of Strength D, or is it that nobody else can? Were people upset that Necrons had wide access to a pair of very useful fliers or that the AA capabilities of most armies at the time were negligible to non-existent?

Just because elder can field lots of D-weapons doesn't mean they should. I mean in 30k you could have 10 marines armed with Malta guns come out of a drop pod as a troops choice, and you could field up to 4 such units, but does that mean they should? If someone fields lots of D-weapons or spams lots of good units or uses deathstars, that's a choice the player makes. Everyone here seems to think that 30k is balanced because it's space marines vs space marines. Even with this no one is fielding mirror image space marine armies, and thus there is a case of imbalance occurring. For example one marine list could be optimised for gameplay vs one that isn't. Sure that's still more balanced than fielding lists from two different factions like in 40k, but 30k isn't just marines vs marines as there is mechanicum and solar auxilia too, and the range of factions is slowly increasing. The point I was trying to make is why Larry Vela thinks the rules for 30k is fine the way it is now when its core rule set comes from 40k, which is full of problems. Is it simply that FW created more balanced army lists? Is it the players being less jerks somehow? That's how it seems to me, and I'm curious to know if that's really the case.

[YorkNecromancer]

Huh? It offers 18 Chapters (Legions, I know, shut up.)

I would, but the fact you think Chapter=Legion shows you don't fully accept/want to believe that there is a difference between the two, and it's pretty bloody significant. Eldar are not Dark Eldar are not Harlequins. Chapters are not Legions. They do not play the same way, despite surface appearances to the contrary.


And they're all already available in 40K, in largely the same configurations. There are over a hundred chapters available in 40K, plus the opportunity to make up as many more as you want.

With limited rules for said play; the last two Astartes codicies have included multiple chapter tactics to represent the 'big' chapters, but, lest we forget, HH book 1 was released during late 5th edition, when those rules didn't exist. The HH offered the first chance to play actual, obscure Astartes armies with unique units and unique rules. I would hope the appeal of that is obvious, but if not, I'll spell it out: it's nice to have official rules that make your favourite army play uniquely according to the fluff.

Instead of just choosing an all Raptor/Berzerker army and going 'These are my World Eaters', you could now field actual, unique World Eater units that no other army list can field, and that is a big deal. Don't believe me? Just ask any Chaos Marine player if they'd like a Codex for their Cult marines. If the answer isn't 'yes', I'll be very surprised, given that it's pretty much request number 1 from Chaos players.

And when you say 'largely the same configurations'?

This comes back to my first point. You either don't want to accept or believe that there is a difference between the Heresy Legions and 40K's Chapters. But there is, and it is significant. Firstly, the Legion army list is completely different in every way. Next, Astartes don't have ATSKNF, so morale is a real issue for them. Then there's the fact that they have tactical squads of twenty men without any special or heavy weapons. Then there's the fact you can field squads with ten plasma guns.

And then there's the fact each Legion has its own 'Chapter Tactics' set of rules called 'Rites of War'. They give some fairly heavy buffs, as well as unique wargear options for basic squads, at the price of a Legion-specific FoC, meaning that if you build your Legion in a fluffy way, you are rewarded with fluffy advantages, but must play in a fluffy way whether you want to or not. It's very different to the 'Chapter Tactics' when you look at all the factors.

And then there's the fact that the game is designed to include Primarchs and Lords of War at its most basic level. The game is optimised for 3000 point play... And those Lords of War really change the way the game plays. For example, if Ferrus Manus is on the field, all Iron Hands reduce the strength of shooting attacks by one; that is a HUGE deal. It makes them more survivable than almost any other Legion... Apart from the fact their Chapter Tactics mean they can't really field assault specialists the way other Legions can, and so they have a severe weakness in that area.

Anyone who claims 'HH is just vanilla marines vs marines' has no bloody idea what they're talking about. There are so many options and units that make sweeping changes to army organisation, unit synergy and the like, that each Legion plays completely and utterly differently, despite the core similarities.

And as for making up your own Chapter?

40K already enables you to do that. 30K is a very different animal. It's not a sandbox like 40K is. It's trying to be a 'historical' wargame for a history that isn't real, so there is necessarily less freedom than in 40K.

That said, I've painted up my preheresy Iron Hands in different colours because ask me if I care about that accuracy. You want to make up your own stuff? You can still do that because they're your toy soldiers. Anyone who says 'Ah, but that's not historically accurate' should be aware that there are systems in place that assume your HH campaigns may play out differently to the established history; they mention the possibility that maybe Ferrus Manus kills Fulgrim instead of the other way round.

So it's still pretty creative.


There is no functional reason why you can't play 30k against eldar, orks, tyranids or whatever. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool.

The books simply state that the game is not balanced for such play, so you'll have to discuss with an opponent beforehand to make the battle fair. There are plenty of references to HH marines fighting Orks and the like in the official books. So yeah, anyone who says 'There are no xenos in HH' is basically an idiot.

Yes there are; you'll just have to be an adult and talk to your opponent about the game beforehand. (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/40k-safe-sane-and-consensual-or-the-arrogance-of-unacknowledged-playstyles.html)

[Chris*ta]

I would, but the fact you think Chapter=Legion shows you don't fully accept/want to believe that there is a difference between the two, and it's pretty bloody significant. Eldar are not Dark Eldar are not Harlequins. Chapters are not Legions. They do not play the same way, despite surface appearances to the contrary.



With limited rules for said play; the last two Astartes codicies have included multiple chapter tactics to represent the 'big' chapters, but, lest we forget, HH book 1 was released during late 5th edition, when those rules didn't exist. The HH offered the first chance to play actual, obscure Astartes armies with unique units and unique rules. I would hope the appeal of that is obvious, but if not, I'll spell it out: it's nice to have official rules that make your favourite army play uniquely according to the fluff.

Instead of just choosing an all Raptor/Berzerker army and going 'These are my World Eaters', you could now field actual, unique World Eater units that no other army list can field, and that is a big deal. Don't believe me? Just ask any Chaos Marine player if they'd like a Codex for their Cult marines. If the answer isn't 'yes', I'll be very surprised, given that it's pretty much request number 1 from Chaos players.

And when you say 'largely the same configurations'?

This comes back to my first point. You either don't want to accept or believe that there is a difference between the Heresy Legions and 40K's Chapters. But there is, and it is significant. Firstly, the Legion army list is completely different in every way. Next, Astartes don't have ATSKNF, so morale is a real issue for them. Then there's the fact that they have tactical squads of twenty men without any special or heavy weapons. Then there's the fact you can field squads with ten plasma guns.

And then there's the fact each Legion has its own 'Chapter Tactics' set of rules called 'Rites of War'. They give some fairly heavy buffs, as well as unique wargear options for basic squads, at the price of a Legion-specific FoC, meaning that if you build your Legion in a fluffy way, you are rewarded with fluffy advantages, but must play in a fluffy way whether you want to or not. It's very different to the 'Chapter Tactics' when you look at all the factors.

And then there's the fact that the game is designed to include Primarchs and Lords of War at its most basic level. The game is optimised for 3000 point play... And those Lords of War really change the way the game plays. For example, if Ferrus Manus is on the field, all Iron Hands reduce the strength of shooting attacks by one; that is a HUGE deal. It makes them more survivable than almost any other Legion... Apart from the fact their Chapter Tactics mean they can't really field assault specialists the way other Legions can, and so they have a severe weakness in that area.

Anyone who claims 'HH is just vanilla marines vs marines' has no bloody idea what they're talking about. There are so many options and units that make sweeping changes to army organisation, unit synergy and the like, that each Legion plays completely and utterly differently, despite the core similarities.

And as for making up your own Chapter?

40K already enables you to do that. 30K is a very different animal. It's not a sandbox like 40K is. It's trying to be a 'historical' wargame for a history that isn't real, so there is necessarily less freedom than in 40K.

That said, I've painted up my preheresy Iron Hands in different colours because ask me if I care about that accuracy. You want to make up your own stuff? You can still do that because they're your toy soldiers. Anyone who says 'Ah, but that's not historically accurate' should be aware that there are systems in place that assume your HH campaigns may play out differently to the established history; they mention the possibility that maybe Ferrus Manus kills Fulgrim instead of the other way round.

So it's still pretty creative.



The books simply state that the game is not balanced for such play, so you'll have to discuss with an opponent beforehand to make the battle fair. There are plenty of references to HH marines fighting Orks and the like in the official books. So yeah, anyone who says 'There are no xenos in HH' is basically an idiot.

Yes there are; you'll just have to be an adult and talk to your opponent about the game beforehand. (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/40k-safe-sane-and-consensual-or-the-arrogance-of-unacknowledged-playstyles.html)

Well, you completely missed my point. Talking about differences between the 30K and 40K Marine lists has nothing to do with it.

In 30K you can't invent a Chapter. There's no creative space available to players to invent their own Marines, you've got to play one of 18 flavours available. The point I was making regarding the similarity between 30K Legions and 40K Chapters is that each of them is largely the same as it's alternate-time twin. While you get more special rules for each Legion than you get for the corresponding Chapter, you're still trying to reflect the same essential character in your army, whether you do it by playing the special rules in 30K or by making specific selections in 40K (e.g. bike-heavy White Scars, etc.).

Oh, and you really want to argue that there's an enormous difference between a First-Founding Chapter and a Legion? Really? They're both forces of marines who follow the precepts of their spiritual liege. And, no, differences between the 30K and 40K lists are entirely beside the point.

[Filthy Casual]

There are a lot difference in size, scope and disposition, the Legions are designed to conquer, the Chapters are there to try and hold on to what they have. A Legion could take planets and systems, subjugate entire sectors if they wished, a Chapter is a powerful tool spread too thin over a huge galaxy.

[Mr Mystery]

You very much can invent a Chapter for 30k. Because Chapters were part of the larger Legion - and after the Heresy, it was those Legion Chapters that became, you guessed it....Chapters.

Flesh Tearers? Already there. They were a Chapter within the Blood Angels, and one that had a pretty heavy rep.

The predilictions of the modern Chapter reflect not only their parent Legion (assuming that's known) but the traditions of their parent Chapter within that Legion.

Want a unique force? Pick a Legion, then design your own heraldry to represent a particular Chapter (of your own devising) within said Legion.

Like your Drop Pods and your Meltas? Why not do an 'Imperial Fist' Chapter renowned for it's somewhat unhinged approach of landing behind the enemy fortifications, and just like Vyvyan in the pilot episode of The Young Ones, surprise the rest of the Legion when they turn up to find the building demolished from within?

Why do they do it? Perhaps it's a bit of the old Black Templar temperament showing through during the Great Crusade. Perhaps the Chapter takes in Legionaries from elsewhere within the Legion - those who have, or feel they have, failed in some way? Maybe it's a penitence thing - throwing themselves into the jaws of hell to recover their honour? Maybe they're just a bit loopy. Who knows? You do, if you choose it.

[YorkNecromancer]

Well, you completely missed my point. Talking about differences between the 30K and 40K Marine lists has nothing to do with it.

In 30K you can't invent a Chapter.

I did cover that. No, you can't, except you can if you want. The HH books are a guide to a 'historical' game, but they still contain scope for freedom if you really can't find one Legion out of 18 to appeal to you. And while I didn't mention it before, lest we forget, two Legions are 'missing' - their absence was designed entirely for that purpose.


The point I was making regarding the similarity between 30K Legions and 40K Chapters is that each of them is largely the same as it's alternate-time twin.

Rulewise, they're really, really not. Fluffwise, YMMV.


Oh, and you really want to argue that there's an enormous difference between a First-Founding Chapter and a Legion?

Yes.


Really?

Yes. Did you not read my mega-post up there?


And, no, differences between the 30K and 40K lists are entirely beside the point.

I'll be honest with you: if you're taking this attitude, we have nothing more to discuss. The rules render abstract fluff into concrete concepts and are as much a part of the storytelling as any BL novel. If you're going to ignore them, then you're ignoring key differences between the fluff of each era.

In the comment I quoted above, it sounds like you're arguing 'Well, if we just ignore the differences, then 40K and 30K are the same'. I hope you can see why I'm scratching my head at that.

You see a separation between fluff/crunch.
I do not. Fluff and crunch are absolutely linked in FW products and to discount one because it's 'game' rather than 'story' is just silly.

On the tabletop, World Eaters field more assault specialists than the Iron Warriors do. Their rules make this an optimal choice for them. THAT is fluff; the game rule is there to make the battle 'fluffier'. So sure, disregard the army lists if you like, but just know that you're disregarding a hugely important part of the fluff when you do.

[Defenestratus]

Even Space Marine vs Space Marine isn't that simple when each legion as a lot of special rules and units that can totally change how they play

It's still just boring dudes in tin cans d1ckpunching other boring dudes in differently colored tin cans.

*Yawn*

If I wanted that, I'd just take my BA/GK army, put a mirror lengthwise across the board and play a game with myself.

[Mr Mystery]

Don't play Warmachine - for goodness, sake, don't play Warmachine!

Me, I kind of hope we'll see some kind of Heresy/Crusade era Xenos nasties. Given Necrons, Orks and Eldar don't exactly change their technology well....ever, the existing plastic range is good to go. Just need some 'before the Imperium flattened us' type ming.

[Gamgee]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9a/b9/04/9ab9043300e9ff79b330d68889ea3a3d.gif

Like, I get that statistically, there have to be people who think that way. And, you know, fair play to you - everyone's entitled to like what they like. But...

Man. That's like hearing someone buys a Cornetto to eat the cone and leave the ice-cream. I can kind of see why they might feel that way, but I can only manage to in the most abstract possible sense.
We get that exact same look from his brother and a lot of other players. Hahah.

Tau, Dark Eldar, and Necrons are my style.

He is an IG, Imperial Knights, and Admech/Skitarii man. Only plays IG but says if he had more cash he would start those armies. His brother is a Chaos Space Marine and Space Marine player (also the youngest of our gaming group) and regrets not picking Spezz Marines over the chaos marines though would collect and play both if he had cash. We also have an Nids and Ork lover who isn't overly fond of the Imperium either. Although he doesn't take our hard stance on Space Marines. Finally another guy who doesn't have the cash to play says he would play Tau as well. Most of us just find the Imperium too stupid and the majority of Space Marine chapters too derp. Uh sorry if that offends you. I know it triggers some space marine fans.

We're a fairly unusual group in that regard.

For the record I'm both lactose intolerant and have fructose malabsorbtion. Ice cream and a lot of sugary stuff are simply out of the question for me since even a small bite has usually more sugar than my daily limit will allow. I can and even have to have sugars, but only a very small amount at a time spread out through the day. Definitely a strange person by most accounts. I have to eat a very unusual diet or take pills that can help me eat stuff with lactose in it. Either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i9F4wDmC3Q

[Filthy Casual]

Its not offensive, its just dismissive of a lot of really cool fluff, especially the Horus Heresy era books and novels.

I collect Imperial Army (Solar Auxillia) and Mechanicus for HH myself, lots of big stompy robots, little nippy robots, a Knight or two and then a load of blokes with lasguns, not an Astartes in sight.

[Defenestratus]

Don't play Warmachine - for goodness, sake, don't play Warmachine!

Me, I kind of hope we'll see some kind of Heresy/Crusade era Xenos nasties. Given Necrons, Orks and Eldar don't exactly change their technology well....ever, the existing plastic range is good to go. Just need some 'before the Imperium flattened us' type ming.

Actually before I even read your comment I was going to amend my post and say...

"this is the same reason I loathe and despise warmachine... every single game I see of warmachine being played looks like every other game. One big model on either side surrounded by a circle of smaller models - almost always all of them unpainted and only primed with little to no terrain."

If you want sides that are equal to each other but of a different color, go play chess.

Personally I find variety to be the spice of life - and its why I'll always bring Eldar with me to a casual gaming group where I don't have a scheduled game since I know I'm not likely to get a pickup game against another Eldar player. My BAGK stay in their totes usually unless someone really wants to play against them.

[Gamgee]

Actually before I even read your comment I was going to amend my post and say...

"this is the same reason I loathe and despise warmachine... every single game I see of warmachine being played looks like every other game. One big model on either side surrounded by a circle of smaller models - almost always all of them unpainted and only primed with little to no terrain."

If you want sides that are equal to each other but of a different color, go play chess.

Personally I find variety to be the spice of life - and its why I'll always bring Eldar with me to a casual gaming group where I don't have a scheduled game since I know I'm not likely to get a pickup game against another Eldar player. My BAGK stay in their totes usually unless someone really wants to play against them.

Warmachines reminds me of the final destination fox only player crowd. :) Hahahah if anyone gets that joke. I always hope 40k's balance will improve, but I like diversity more.

[Filthy Casual]

Warmachines reminds me of the final destination fox only player crowd. :) Hahahah if anyone gets that joke. I always hope 40k's balance will improve, but I like diversity more.

I've seen the analogy used before, its apt, a lot of people are mad about 40K having a lot of randomness and silly stuff, but I think that's fun, like Smash with all the items turned on. Yes, the "best" player might not always win because things go badly for them but everyone will still have fun.

[Chris*ta]

You very much can invent a Chapter for 30k. Because Chapters were part of the larger Legion - and after the Heresy, it was those Legion Chapters that became, you guessed it....Chapters.

Flesh Tearers? Already there. They were a Chapter within the Blood Angels, and one that had a pretty heavy rep.

The predilictions of the modern Chapter reflect not only their parent Legion (assuming that's known) but the traditions of their parent Chapter within that Legion.

Want a unique force? Pick a Legion, then design your own heraldry to represent a particular Chapter (of your own devising) within said Legion.

Like your Drop Pods and your Meltas? Why not do an 'Imperial Fist' Chapter renowned for it's somewhat unhinged approach of landing behind the enemy fortifications, and just like Vyvyan in the pilot episode of The Young Ones, surprise the rest of the Legion when they turn up to find the building demolished from within?

Why do they do it? Perhaps it's a bit of the old Black Templar temperament showing through during the Great Crusade. Perhaps the Chapter takes in Legionaries from elsewhere within the Legion - those who have, or feel they have, failed in some way? Maybe it's a penitence thing - throwing themselves into the jaws of hell to recover their honour? Maybe they're just a bit loopy. Who knows? You do, if you choose it.


I did cover that. No, you can't, except you can if you want. The HH books are a guide to a 'historical' game, but they still contain scope for freedom if you really can't find one Legion out of 18 to appeal to you. And while I didn't mention it before, lest we forget, two Legions are 'missing' - their absence was designed entirely for that purpose.

Except it's not a Chapter. You can't paint them in your own colour scheme, because they're part of the parent Legion and have to look like the parent Legion. And the other two Legions is a terrible argument. There has never been any fluff anyone's created around them that hasn't been awful.


You see a separation between fluff/crunch.
I do not. Fluff and crunch are absolutely linked in FW products and to discount one because it's 'game' rather than 'story' is just silly.

Not what I'm saying. Comparing the 30K Legion list and the 40K Chapter list and saying, one let's you take units of 20 armed just with bolters, the other units of 10, with bolters and a couple of other weapons is not relevant. What I'm saying is that the "spirit" of, say, the Imperial Fists is largely the same, whether at 30K or 40K, and, while the rules for one or the other might let you reflect that spirit better, what you're representing, the Imperial Fists, is basically the same.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh you can indeed.

There's Imperial Fists already in Black Armour, with only their Shoulder Pads in the heraldic Yellow.

Could be camo. Could skybluepink. They're your models dude.

[Haighus]

Except it's not a Chapter. You can't paint them in your own colour scheme, because they're part of the parent Legion and have to look like the parent Legion. And the other two Legions is a terrible argument. There has never been any fluff anyone's created around them that hasn't been awful.
Well, there is actually a lot of scope within the overall Legion colour schemes to have units and formations with unique battle honours requiring a different colour scheme, which are usually variations on the general Legion scheme, but can be surprisingly different. A bit of backstory as to why your particular force has a divergent scheme and you are away. Here is an example of an Imperial Fist in a heavily modified scheme.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/2/29/IF_Vet_Assault_Termi.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140411234829
Here is another Imperial Fist from a different Company:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140411234646/warhammer40k/images/4/4f/IF_Legion_Assault_Legionary.jpg
There are also examples of loyalist Death Guard having escaped Isstvan and taking up the old heraldry of the Dusk Raiders:
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/5/5c/Dusk_Raiders_Marine.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121009073717

Not to mention that the Legions were only whole entities at the beginning of the Horus Heresy, after the Dropsite Massacre especially many of them fragmented, particularly the Iron Hands but the 3 Loyalist legions become referred to as the Shattered Legions after the Massacre. Many Marines forsake their original Legion ties, and go rogue, or on personal quests of vengeance, often removing their iconography and changing their colours. Within this is a significant amount of free rein to create your own Legion force that has no ties to one of the Legions proper, merely uses their tactics and demeanour as a hold over of their training, but with entirely unique heraldry. This is Redemption of battlegroup Revenant, and is from an unknown Legion with unique heraldry:
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/7/7f/Unknown_Black_Shield_Redemption.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20150106033242

I can keep finding examples like these, FW has seeded their books with many, many options for heavily customising the Legion forces, which is before even including the Militia and Mechanicum lists. The Solar Auxilia is actually by far the most homogeneous force other than the Knight list, and that is because it is really a specific example of the Imperialis Auxilia.

The Horus Heresy is when the Legions were sundered and became Chapters/Warbands. What Guilliman did post-Heresy was formalise the break up and extend it to the Legions that had remained unified, but many of the Legions had already fragmented. One of the coolest things about the FW books for me is seeing the little nods to later Chapters contained within the Legions, where it is obvious that a particular force will become a Chapter in the future; the forces under Seneschal Rahn becoming the Executioners or the Morragul clan based upon the warship the Red Talon becoming the Red Talons.


Not what I'm saying. Comparing the 30K Legion list and the 40K Chapter list and saying, one let's you take units of 20 armed just with bolters, the other units of 10, with bolters and a couple of other weapons is not relevant. What I'm saying is that the "spirit" of, say, the Imperial Fists is largely the same, whether at 30K or 40K, and, while the rules for one or the other might let you reflect that spirit better, what you're representing, the Imperial Fists, is basically the same.
That isn't really true though, the Imperial Fists Chapter is one condensed aspect of the Imperial Fists Legion, they have retained one aspect of the Legion, its flair for siege craft especially and it's culture of honour, but lost other aspects based on which Marines originally stayed with the parent Chapter. However, the most brutal Imperial Fists left to join the Executioners, the most zealous are in the Black Templars, the most stubborn and enduring are in the Excoriators, so each of these successor Chapters maintains a different aspect of the original Legion, but the Legion was the sum of them all.


I can understand not liking the lack of xenos in 30k though, that is something that annoys me, but then I play both 40k and 30k. I can't see FW missing the opportunity for including more xenos in 30k in the future though. At the moment, the only xenos are from the Immaterium in the form of Daemons.


Hehe ninja'd on the black Imperial Fists by Mr Mystery :D

[DaveTycho]

The books simply state that the game is not balanced for such play, so you'll have to discuss with an opponent beforehand to make the battle fair. There are plenty of references to HH marines fighting Orks and the like in the official books. So yeah, anyone who says 'There are no xenos in HH' is basically an idiot.

Yes there are; you'll just have to be an adult and talk to your opponent about the game beforehand. (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/40k-safe-sane-and-consensual-or-the-arrogance-of-unacknowledged-playstyles.html)[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%

[DaveTycho]

You very much can invent a Chapter for 30k. Because Chapters were part of the larger Legion - and after the Heresy, it was those Legion Chapters that became, you guessed it....Chapters.

Flesh Tearers? Already there. They were a Chapter within the Blood Angels, and one that had a pretty heavy rep.

The predilictions of the modern Chapter reflect not only their parent Legion (assuming that's known) but the traditions of their parent Chapter within that Legion.

Want a unique force? Pick a Legion, then design your own heraldry to represent a particular Chapter (of your own devising) within said Legion.

Like your Drop Pods and your Meltas? Why not do an 'Imperial Fist' Chapter renowned for it's somewhat unhinged approach of landing behind the enemy fortifications, and just like Vyvyan in the pilot episode of The Young Ones, surprise the rest of the Legion when they turn up to find the building demolished from within?

Why do they do it? Perhaps it's a bit of the old Black Templar temperament showing through during the Great Crusade. Perhaps the Chapter takes in Legionaries from elsewhere within the Legion - those who have, or feel they have, failed in some way? Maybe it's a penitence thing - throwing themselves into the jaws of hell to recover their honour? Maybe they're just a bit loopy. Who knows? You do, if you choose it.

That's actually an interesting idea there. Of course of you going to create your own chapter that way, you would need some of the original legion markings/colours so to identify the parent legion, but otherwise it sounds like fun and something different to try.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

If I ever did HH I'd probably do a rogue group of loyalists from a traitor legion so I could make the exuse they've forsaken their original colours and iconography. Perhaps Death guard as I really dig their terminator models.

As for Xenos in HH - i wouldn't mind if the Cabal were expanded on further in some way. They have some very interesting members.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

The little Xenos references in the FW Heresy books really do make me wish that Forgeworld would have a go at 'em. One of Alpharius's conflicting backgrounds makes references to being trapped in the "Stone Ships" of the Slaugth, and that one nutty Monstrous Creature Magos's background talks about how most of his flesh was liquefied by a creature known as a "Carnoplasm".

[pohanew]

A few days ago, Larry Vela posted an editorial about the potential rules change for Horus Heresy games before the release of book VII, and with that release rules for the last two legions to be given rules for (the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves). Essentially Larry wants a complete rules set to field all 18 space marine legions within the 40 7th edition rules framework before any rules changes affects the whole of the Horus Hersey set up. The thing I noticed is his claim- a claim also made by others- is that 30k is perfect the way it is.

I am curious as to why that is the case.

Obviously there are good reasons to why people believe this. I'm not promoting that 30k is better than 40k or vice versa, or advocating any rules changes. I want to start a discussion on the differences between the two sets. Also I'm writing this article from a position of ignorance, having played little of 30k, and not owning books IV and V, so please bear with me and if I'm wrong about anything post it here. The point I'm trying to bring up is that 30k isn't its own game with its own rules, but an expansion of the 40k rules.

We all know that 40k has its problems; from broken armies to deathstars, invisibility to D-weapons, formations to superheavies. The thing is that everything wrong with 40k is also included in 30k too (well except formations, unless they got included in the newer books or something, someone will probably tell me I'm wrong). D-weapons in 30k? Yes. Knights in 30k? Yes. Deathstars in 30? Yes. Alternate force org charts in 30k? Yes.

So why is 30k so cherished while 40k is *****ed on about? Functionally, whatever you could do in 40k you could also do in 30k too. From my subjective point of view there are only two differences between 40k and 30k: the army lists, and the players.

First off, the army lists, and I say that, I mean space marines, the mechanicum, the solar auxilia, and the cults and militias. These are obviously an important reason people would suggest as to why 30k is good as it is game wise. Reading through the rules, the units and options available feel more balanced and tight than regular 40k lists. There is little that stands out as OP'ed or stupid. But like I said, every abusable option you could do in 40k you could do in 30k too. Except that it is harder to do so. Lords of War are restricted to 2000pt+ games with a percentage limit; allies are limited with fewer factions to choose from; hell even D-weapons have an optional nerf outside apocalypse. Harder, but not impossible. There are combos and rules that can be broken, you can face an army with some from of LOW that you can't deal with, and D-weapons can still wreck stuff if both players forget to use the optional nerf. Has anyone even tried to play 30k with a normal CAD or even unbound?

This brings me to my second point: the players. Are they different somehow to the rest of the regular 40k players? Do they care more about having a fun game than smashing their opponents' armies in as short a time as possible? Are there even any 30k jerks out there fielding jerk army lists? Do people who play 30k choose not to max out on the worst cheese possible? Honestly I don't know. Like I mentioned before I have little knowledge playing Horus Hersey with others, so my opinions here are purely subjective. From what I have seen people ***** more about how broken X rule is or how overpowered Y army is in 40k than what is said in 30k. Again I could be wrong about this, so say so if I am.

Before I finish this post I will ask my questions again and leave it to everyone else: why is 30k great right now even though it shares the exact same rules with 40k, which people consider a mess? Is 30k far more balanced with its army list building and difficultly in abusing them? Are the players attitudes different in that it's more play for fun rather than play to win to them?

And one final question that should be asked: for some reason people don't want 40 and 30k to be mixed. Many claim that 30k doesn't scale down well in smaller games. But with the average points sizes for games being 1850-2000pts, and 40k seemingly encouraging larger games, would scaling be a problem anymore? More importantly, how would the two different armies fare? Would a 30k list be fairer than a 40k list? Would a 30k army struggle against 40k shenanigans?

[Edit] I want to point out that while fluff/nostalgia are very good reasons why Horus Heresy is popular, I am only interested in comparing 30k to 40 purely from a rules and gameplay standpoint. The point I'm trying to bring up is to discuss whether or not 30k can be just as abusable as 40k is and if players are just as likely to abuse any loopholes or advantages as they are in 40k. Also suggesting that 30k is balanced because it's marines bs marines isn't as true as people think. Just because both sides can field the same options doesn't mean that they do, and when that happens is the game still as balanced, or does it then veer into "bad 40" territory where broken units and cheese rules.

30k seems better because its like a blank slate and if your opponent chooses broken units so can you its all level pegging

[Denzark]

30k seems better because its like a blank slate and if your opponent chooses broken units so can you its all level pegging

What, like unbound in 40K?

[Mr Mystery]

That's actually an interesting idea there. Of course of you going to create your own chapter that way, you would need some of the original legion markings/colours so to identify the parent legion, but otherwise it sounds like fun and something different to try.

Base it on colour theory, which to be fair is something I don't understand.

Legion Colours as spot colours, and keep the iconography. Beyond that, knock yourself out :)

Unless as you say you want to use Unification era markings for whatever reason, or something adopted by a stranded or otherwise rogue force, in which case pretty much anything goes.

I'd be interested to see alternate scheme for Traitors from otherwise Loyal legions. We know they existed pretty much across the board, indeed learning such things has been one of the many pleasures of the series so far. And as a Dark Angel player, I feel it deepens the tragedy of The Fallen. Their shame is far from unique, and we know there was forgiveness, or at the very least pragmatism about such things.....though that's assuming we know the whole of that particular story.......

[daboarder]

What, like unbound in 40K?

Hows that going for AoS?

[40kGamer]

Oh you can indeed.

There's Imperial Fists already in Black Armour, with only their Shoulder Pads in the heraldic Yellow.

Could be camo. Could skybluepink. They're your models dude.

If you go back to the ancient fluff Camo schemes were common and can look awesome. Even in more recent fluff, FW put my beloved Howling Griffons in solid dark armour with only the shoulder in their chapter colours. So another option would be to keep the parent colours and use the 'chapter' colours/heraldry on the knee pad or shoulder.

Even with the Legions there are a host of ways to paint the same colour. There are so many nuances in the primary colours that you can put your twist on them there.

let the noggin run wild... there's always a way to make things more personal.

[nsc]

Hows that going for AoS?

Very good, haven't had a bad game yet, that's more than I can say for 40k.

It'll come down to your opponent, and having the rules say "work it out with your opponent" is a pretty good thing (imo) because sure the rules allow you to be a bit of a dick and crush your opponent's list "with superior list building"

Does it make you a better strategist to buy Four Wraithknights and Thirty jetbikes? No, but you will win a lot of games.

30k being better than 40k is opinions, the game is more even because the units are more homogeneous, 3+ armour is fair in line with other 3+ armour. Taking a cheesey list against an "unoptimized" list will crush it, no matter what game you play, from historicals to chess (if you replace things with pawns etc).

30k has this too, however it has (imo) less "trap" options, things which look cool, but ultimately they're just too inefficient and hurt your list overall.