I am losing interest...

[chipset35]

First off, let me point out that I purchased the Age of Sigmar starter set to great excitement at getting in at the bottom floor of something new.
I purchased all the novels as I am a lore junkie.
Unfortunately, I have stopped buying both...here is why.

1) The novels and Storm Hosts are uninspiring, they are the same old thing in each, i.e. Storm Host is being overrun, another Host comes to their rescue, victory is now in their grasp, then a big bad guy shows up and they are on the brink of disaster again, then somehow the Storm Host pulls out a victory usually due to divine intervention. None of these novels can hold a candle to ANY Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy Novel. Not because the writers are not good, but because the writers have nothing to work with. Uninspiring Heroes and in the case of the Storm Hosts, they lack the variety of both Warhammer and WH40K.
The bad guys do have better variety, but the Storm Hosts remind me of NFL football teams all with the same uniforms and slightly different color schemes. They do not compare to even Space marine chapters.

2) The setting is bland....and confusing.
Are they in the old world a different world, in the iron core of the old world? Who knows?
You would think that the current setting would be interesting, but its not.
It would have been better if GW had placed AoS in the ruins of the old world with recognizable features or ruins that we used to find interesting. Instead, we have a bland and bleak boring landscape that despite its variety pales in comparison to the old world.

3) I want to love AoS, it was my first and only chance to get in at the ground floor of Warhammer/40K, but the more I read, the more I see the less excited i get. Maybe Dan Abnett can inject some life into it by writing an Epic Novel for it?

[Psychosplodge]

Don't distract Dan Abnett, he's got Gaunt's ghosts books, the next Eisornhorn/Ravennor book, and whatever else they want for the heresy from him to do.

[Charon]

Don't distract Dan Abnett, he's got Gaunt's ghosts books, the next Eisornhorn/Ravennor book, and whatever else they want for the heresy from him to do.

Benqin!

[Psychosplodge]

That's what I said :p

[40kGamer]

First off, let me point out that I purchased the Age of Sigmar starter set to great excitement at getting in at the bottom floor of something new.
I purchased all the novels as I am a lore junkie. Unfortunately, I have stopped buying both...here is why.

Right there with you. Although the lack of any balancing mechanism also contributed to my plunging interest as well. Guess those Stormcast Eternals are going to be the basis of some Truescale Blood Angels for me now.

[nsc]

1) I disagree, I find the individual personalities of each Stormcast to be very endearing, they're all very different and vibrant. They all behave slightly differently, with many being recklessly zealous for their own reasons. I find the reforging very interesting and I like how the stormcasts react to the creeping realization of what exactly it means to be a portion of sigmar's will. I find them infinitely more interesting than the standard loyalist marines and I've only read one short story which left a bad taste in my mouth (mandrake, imo the writing is absolutely abysmal).

2) How are you confused if you've read all these materials? The mortal realms are clearly separate from the old world which hangs in Azyr as a metal lump. The old world in its entirety (well what survived) is that metal lump. All of these mortal realms are pocket dimensions made real by sigmar and other gods. They are new and separate from everything previous, they are joined by realmgates and other celestial constructs.

Within these realms there are many thousands of years (possibly 2, possibly more) of history which are slowly being teased to us. Heroes and Heroines are cast about as desecrated statues which the stories from the blacklibrary and the campaign books, and I don't know about you, but I want to know more. I want to learn more about Celemnis and her Celemnite swords, I want to hear of her tragedy and rage which binds her soul to molten silver.

This is a type of world building which in design is known as "top down" and it is very popular. Now, if you don't like it, it's fine for you to say that you don't like it, but it's not fine for you to say that this is bland, sloppy, or bad. They've done a very good job of top down world design, providing a great deal of detail for the mortal planes within gorgeous maps, and very well placed and teased top-down lore design. MaRo very famously talked about the first edition of magic, where things like Shivian Dragons excited many people into wonder, "Where is shiv? Why does it have dragons?"

If this type of curiosity doesn't appeal to you then I'm sorry, it appeals to me and it's wonderful. With every page turn there's more to discover within this age and it's very exciting for me.

3) I cannot excite you friend, but if you don't like the design style of the setting then I suppose there's nothing to be done.

[Auticus]

Pick a balancing mechanism thats out there, there are a ton to choose from now.

[40kGamer]

Pick a balancing mechanism thats out there, there are a ton to choose from now.

The only thing I've tried has been the one the miniwargaming folks put forward. However getting others to buy into a system is the biggest hurdle since everyone has their own idea of what to do! Trying to play this game feels too much like work at this point.

[Caitsidhe]

1)Now, if you don't like it, it's fine for you to say that you don't like it, but it's not fine for you to say that this is bland, sloppy, or bad.

Why not? If it is fine for you to give your opinion stating you like it and in a manner that reads as if it comes from a brochure, it should be fine for him to state that he doesn't like it and why. I am still reading some of the literature so I won't give my thoughts on it until I'm done. However, I see no reason you should feel empowered to tell people that it isn't acceptable to give negative reviews.

[Erik Setzer]

Actually, I think the "realms" are supposed to be chunks of the old world that blew off and were saved and had winds of magic bound to them by the Old Ones. (My pet theory is that the Old Ones plan to reassemble the old world as some sort of anti-Chaos weapon.) The confusion comes in how they're referred to through the fluff, with "realms" suggest different planes of existence, or how in one of the novels the Stormcasts refer to them as "worlds" and talk about driving the scourge of Chaos out of the "universe," which seems like a bigger scope than we're really dealing with.

I'm trying to read the novels, but the Stormcast Eternals so far are, by far, the most boring characters. Other characters aren't bad, they seem to have an interesting story to them. But the Eternals are just... they're like someone made an army of Mary Sues with a touch of deus ex machina thrown in. All the talk of them being "immortal warriors without fear and without equal" just makes them sound even more boring.

But that's just compounding the biggest problem, which is that there's no stakes in the story. They rammed the plot line ahead a few thousand years, and this is what we get:

A bunch of people are found, no idea how they got there, but by now any civilizations that existed have been crushed. Sigmar fought Chaos, Chaos won, but Chaos couldn't win entirely, and thus we've established that if you lose to Chaos, you can play a waiting game and know they won't destroy everything (which is peculiar, as that's exactly what they did in End Times). Now Sigmar's driving back to beat Chaos out of the realms. The war's already been fought, and even a "loss" wasn't really much of a loss, except that any people we might have cared about fighting for were wiped out, leaving us no one to care about and knowing Chaos can't win. Pile onto that the situation with Ghal Maraz, where Sigmar flung his hammer because he was afraid Archaon would beat him, a god, in combat, and Tzeentch stole it. They make a big deal of him getting it back because it's that important, and then he immediately hands it off to a guy who'd get wrecked by a Greater Daemon and would probably snap in half at the sight of Archaon (given that Archaon's supposedly so powerful he can beat Sigmar). If the hammer is that important, why the heck would Sigmar not keep that thing in his own hands, especially if a lot of his power is tied to it being in his possession? It's like Thor fighting hard to get his hammer back, then handing it to someone else to use.

And speaking of Archaon, there's one more thing that tells us there's no stakes in this world. We see the world blown up, Archaon wiped out, all the guys other than Sigmar wiped out, etc. But suddenly Archaon is back, all the Elves are back (though Malekith seems to have realized his name was shared with a Marvel character and can't be copyrighted), and even Kairos is back despite being killed by Archaon to summon a Bloodthirster. All these meaningful deaths in End Times are suddenly reversed, making them meaningless in End Times. It doesn't just establish that there's no real stakes in AoS (or ability to make interesting new characters), it also says that End Times had a lot of story that didn't matter, and End Times makes no sense now because Chaos suddenly can't blow up a world any more and all these people wiped from ever existing are back and healthy and whole.

They wanted so hard to make the Stormcast Eternals *the* army that they wrote a story that only exists to glorify the one faction, with no chance at the good guys losing.

I get that people might not like minutes-to-midnight scenarios, but they're nowhere near as boring as knowing the good guys are just going to win all the rounds from here on out, and any setbacks are just minor nuisances.

[Cutter]

I think everyone is losing interest.

When the Oubliette generates more traffic than the game threads, it's double plus bad, to use official Gee-Dub lingo.

[Caitsidhe]

I think everyone is losing interest.

When the Oubliette generates more traffic than the game threads, it's double plus bad, to use official Gee-Dub lingo.

Bingo! I recall back in the day when posts about the games, tactics, battle reports and on went so fast and furious I couldn't keep up with them. The canary in the coal mine died.

[Morgrim]

I'm waiting patiently for some interesting fluff. Lizardmen for preference, but I'll take interesting elves or maybe even some vampires. Nicely written Tzneetch or Slaanesh stuff too! I'm not interested in Stormcast because I find super soldiers boring, I'm not interested in Nurgle EVER because GW has very effectively killed the few bits interesting about him long ago, and I am not interested in Khorne because it all becomes one-dimensional.

So at the moment AoS is offering me nothing because it's managing to focus on all the armies I dislike. Coincidently that's the same reason I've stopped playing 40k much too; Space Marines are, with very few exceptions, as dull as dishwater.

[Cutter]

Bingo! I recall back in the day when posts about the games, tactics, battle reports and on went so fast and furious I couldn't keep up with them. The canary in the coal mine died.

I imagine things will pick up a bit again when new 40k starts dropping, ZPGs only good for lols at this stage, like

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/03/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms/

and

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/04/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms-2/

for example.

Side splitting stuff.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm not interested in Nurgle EVER because GW has very effectively killed the few bits interesting about him long ago

I'm rather miffed that whenever I try to explain to people that Nurgle and Tzeentch dislike each other because Nurgle is all about despair and nightmares and Tzeentch is about hope and dreams, they act like I'm making it up and it can't be true. It's part of the background of those gods! But it's not mentioned much any more. Nurgle is just "diseases all the time!" Which is also why people are confused about how the Horned Rat and Nurgle can co-exist, they don't realize that both gods actually have pestilence as tools to achieve their primary goals (Nurgle wants to spread despair, the Horned Rat wants to elevate his own position and that of the Skaven).

[Psychosplodge]

I think everyone is losing interest.

When the Oubliette generates more traffic than the game threads, it's double plus bad, to use official Gee-Dub lingo.

The oubliette is mildly entertaining. The rules arguments... not so much.

[Cutter]

The oubliette is mildly entertaining. The rules arguments... not so much.

If only there were rules to argue about splodge, if only there were rules....:)

[Mr Mystery]

I think everyone is losing interest.

When the Oubliette generates more traffic than the game threads, it's double plus bad, to use official Gee-Dub lingo.

Then I guess X-Wing, Malifaux, Infinity and indeed all the other games covered on this board are even moar screweds?

But on topic.....

If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it.

I'd say give it 12 months, then revisit. By then we should be beyond the initial stages, and start to see other forces taking more of a centre stage.

As I've said on similar cases - most you could do is give it a try. If it's not for you, it's not for you.

[40kGamer]

I imagine things will pick up a bit again when new 40k starts dropping, ZPGs only good for lols at this stage, like

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/03/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms/

and

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/04/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms-2/

for example.

Side splitting stuff.

Well I see the dance around while rubbing your belly aspect of the game is still alive and well... maybe we're just playing this thing at the wrong level of intoxication.

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Then I guess X-Wing, Malifaux, Infinity and indeed all the other games covered on this board are even moar screweds?

For me this has always been a GW board so I don't bother posting much about the other games here since you get better and broader feedback on them elsewhere.

[Caitsidhe]

Then I guess X-Wing, Malifaux, Infinity and indeed all the other games covered on this board are even moar screweds?

But on topic.....

If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it.

I'd say give it 12 months, then revisit. By then we should be beyond the initial stages, and start to see other forces taking more of a centre stage.

As I've said on similar cases - most you could do is give it a try. If it's not for you, it's not for you.

You and I agree here. It is possible that they will manage to make a silk purse out of this sow's ear. I grant that I'm cynical (and given the performance of GW over the last six years) and that I don't think the odds are great. I will admit, however, that there is still time to steer this leaky boat safely through Charybdis and Scylla. They have a hell of a lot to do to pull off this miracle. The first step would be admitting (like an alcoholic) that they have a problem, recognizing the actual problem, and taking the humble steps to address it.

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For me this has always been a GW board so I don't bother posting much about the other games here since you get better and broader feedback on them elsewhere.

Ditto this sentiment. While BOLS has always maintained areas for people to talk about other games, the meat and potatoes and bulk of the bandwidth has always been about Games Workshop products. When I want to talk about Warmachine/Hordes I log into Privateer's site. :D Likewise I go to other sites specifically designated for the other games. Games Workshop doesn't maintain a site like this so all of us have to be gypsies and find places to talk about their product. This just happens to be the one I settled on for GW.

[Charon]

For me this has always been a GW board so I don't bother posting much about the other games here since you get better and broader feedback on them elsewhere.

Like.... the manufactoring companies boards?

[40kGamer]

Like.... the manufactoring companies boards?

I bounce around... a lot! CMON is good for paint/conversion work, Boardgame Geek for wider game rules type stuff and sometimes on game specific boards like for Robotech RPG Tactics, FFG or Infinity. Occasionally on FB for super specific things like Epic40k and the other specialist games... and I scratch the historical itch on TMP and the Piquet group (as I love the modernized PIQUET rules). I also frequent TGN, BOW, Youtube groups and manufacturer specific locations for things like Taban, Infinity, Warlord, etc etc... too many games, too little time. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Perhaps people are put off by the constant 'I don't like this because'?

Sadly, Internet forums have a reputation for being negative, and places where it's hard to get a good conversation going.

Facebook? Not so much, because the groups are more specific. Want to rag on a game? There's a group for that. Want to praise the game non-stop? There's a group for that. Anything in between? Groups for that. Local. National, International, Army specific, Game specific. And best of all? Anyone trolling said group is more likely to be hoofed out, because the admins don't have to worry about paying for the servers, bandwidth etc so they can afford to be strict in a way general forums like BoLS can't (too strict, and nobody will visit. See 40kForums in the days of Wardenhammer, who handed out bans for anyone who disagreed with him or poked holes in his narrative, and would even moderate his own posts to remove evidence of his own bad behaviour).

[chipset35]

You all make great points, and as "NSC" said about Celemnis and her Celemnite swords...I cannot recall ever reading that anywhere and those are the kind of things that would have got me excited.
Also, 'Erik Setzer" makes great points, in fact he explains my feelings better than I did!
Thank you Erik!
Especially about the Old World blowing up! When did that happen and how? Who did it?
I dont recall reading anywhere how that happened.
Help! I want to like AoS!

[Filthy Casual]

You all make great points, and as "NSC" said about Celemnis and her Celemnite swords...I cannot recall ever reading that anywhere and those are the kind of things that would have got me excited.
Also, 'Erik Setzer" makes great points, in fact he explains my feelings better than I did!
Thank you Erik!
Especially about the Old World blowing up! When did that happen and how? Who did it?
I dont recall reading anywhere how that happened.
Help! I want to like AoS!

Not sure how you missed the End Times if you bought all the novels!

Chaos invaded and this time they won, world was torn apart when another Gate like the ones at the Poles of the world was opened, the Gods tore it apart and devoured everyone. Except Sigmar who managed to avoid them and fell into the void.

Thousands of years later, tumbling through nothing he finds a Space Dragon and they become pals and have Space Adventures, together then find the Realms, which are vast and near infinite lands made of the stuff of magic, the Winds of the Old World were but a tiny reflection of the power present in the Realms.

Siggy and his Dragon Pal slowly conquer them. He's a full on God at this point and from his memory and the raw stuff of creation, the races are found, returned to the Realms, as are some familiar faces, not sure if they are all recreated by Sigmar or the Realms (some of them were Incarnates of the magic flowing from the Realms when the World That Was ended or if Sigmar is even consciously bringing them back)

Peace and prosperity reign for millennia as Sigmar as the powers of the Realms are united under his banner.

Chaos comes back, the alliance Sigmar built shatters, Chaos begins to win again, Sigmar has no way to fight back, losing his hammer in a fight, and his allies betraying him to pursue their own goals. The only thing left is to retreat, closing off his Realm, the Celestial Realm of Azyr, from the rest. Before he closes this gate, he snatches the bravest and mightiest of mortal heroes from the war against Chaos and transports them to Azyr.

There, he slowly transforms them into the Stormcast Eternals, breaking them apart and rebuilding them infused with his own power. Arming them with the mightiest weapons and armour and making the army he needs to fight Chaos.

After a millennia of isolation, Sigmars armies strike back, Chaos isn't able to destroy the Realms, they can't manage to hold and alliance between them to work together this time and the Realms are too vast. They fight each other as often as the mortal survivors desperately clinging to life in the Realms.

The Stormcasts are no faceless automatons, they're mortals, with lives on the Realms, thoughts and desires, they were snatched away from their homes and families they were defending. They're broken down and struggle to remember all they were, their humanity ebbs away every time they're brought back from death by Sigmar to fight again. There is a lot to them.

The Realms have a lot of potential to tell the sort of story you want to tell. If you're not sold on the Stormcast, well there are loads of massive Realms and loads of fights to see.

What armies were you interested in from the old world?

[nsc]

You all make great points, and as "NSC" said about Celemnis and her Celemnite swords...I cannot recall ever reading that anywhere and those are the kind of things that would have got me excited.

Yeah see, there are these books which exist Age of Sigmar (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Book-ENG) and Quest for Ghal Maraz (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/The-Realmgate-Wars-Quest-For-Ghal-Maraz-ENG) which are advertised as narratives, campaign books, and as many reviews have discussed they're filled with lots of top quality artwork, excellent dioramas of Citadel miniatures, and story. There's lots and lots of story.

Each book is about 260 pages and details 3 different campaign assaults over 8 battles (which are given scenario rules for tabletop battles), and there is an over arching account of what's going on leading up to the attacks. They discuss the celestial drakes, the state of the realms, and a lot of other stuff.

It's interesting (to me at least) that people are complaining that there's no lore for age of sigmar, I guess they're not reading the books.

[Auticus]

A lot of people aren't buying the books because they don't have any game rules in them and see it as a lot of money for a handful of scenarios, so that doesn't surprise me.

[Filthy Casual]

A lot of people aren't buying the books because they don't have any game rules in them and see it as a lot of money for a handful of scenarios, so that doesn't surprise me.

They have Scenarios, Rules for Realms, Warscrolls for units and Time of War rules which add spells, Triumph rewards and more. People are buying them

[Auticus]

Yes I know people are buying them. I'm not trying to insinuate no one is buying them (I have both). I'm saying a lot of people are not buying the books for those reasons given (they don't see that as really needed to play)

In our area of about 25 fantasy players playing A.O.S I think maybe 3 or 4 of us have the books.

[Filthy Casual]

Yes I know people are buying them. I'm not trying to insinuate no one is buying them (I have both). I'm saying a lot of people are not buying the books for those reasons given (they don't see that as really needed to play)

In our area of about 25 fantasy players playing A.O.S I think maybe 3 or 4 of us have the books.

They're missing out then, they're some of the best books GW has put out in a long time (and GW has been on top of its book game lately, the End Times, the 40k Campaign Books, the FW Horus Heresy Books and the Imperial Knight Companion are all awesome books and the new codexes are gorgeous too) but they're campaign books, i don't think its necessary for every player to own them but for a few copies to be available for a group so they can organise a campaign between them, that's where AoS is really a great game.

[Erik Setzer]

Especially about the Old World blowing up! When did that happen and how? Who did it?
I dont recall reading anywhere how that happened.
Help! I want to like AoS!

At the end of the End Times series of books (Nagash, Glottkin, Khaine, Thanquol, Archaon), the collected Incarnates, Sigmar included, weren't able to stop Chaos. Chaos succeeded in opening a rift that started devouring anything close to it. (There's even a passage from Malekith's POV where he basically feels his memories obliterated before his physical form is also snuffed out, as if all trace of him was being erased from ever having happened.) The rift engulfs the world, Chaos has their fun, then get bored and leave. It's left with Sigmar floating in space clutching something, hinted strongly (it might have outright said it, I can't recall at the moment) that it was the heart of the old world.

Fast forward to AoS, and in the first book it talks about how Sigmar's built a fortress around a massive ball of molten rock, even referencing it as the core of "the world-that-was." He's intent on protecting it. (There's a neat illustration of it in the book.) So from that, you can pretty much assume he kept the core of the world intact and protected it... but it doesn't hint at why.

Nagash, Alarielle, Tyrion, Teclis, Malekith (now Malerion), and, of course, Sigmar appear in the new story. It mentions some of them waking up and wondering, "What happened? Where am I? Where have I been?" The Elves went after Slaanesh because he ate all their Elf kin and I guess they're intent on getting them back. So clearly they remember what happened before.

Only, there's some oddities there, like how Malekith's name changed, and the racial names changed. The existence of races matching the old races, except pretty much everyone but the humans forgot who they were and ended up making up new names. Gork and Mork being merged together (unless/until they're not... that's an odd one). The fact there's eight realms, each with one of the eight realms of magic bound to it. Prior technomancy tribes, the dwarfs (duardin) knowing how to build realmgates, etc.

Now, the obvious answer to some of those is "copyright." But let's forget that and put the tin foil hat back on. (For those who don't know, it's a nod to a column I love on a World of Warcraft site, where they don a TFH to guess at where the lore is headed or what the answer to a question might be.)

What if the Old Ones tried to help save "the world-that-was?" Only there wasn't much left. They remade the races, but in an imperfect form. While Chaos resurrected their own heroes, the Old Ones brought back heroes on the other side of the conflict. They found pieces of the world that hadn't been completely destroyed and they bound the winds of magic to them and protected them as much as possible. They taught the races technology (which, to many, would seem like magic, i.e. the realmgates). And then left them to their own devices, but led a great drake (I forget his name right now... our coffee machine here is broken, please forgive my brain) to find Sigmar and bring him to where those realms were set up. It's even possible that all of this exists in some pocket of the universe, where the Old Ones tried to protect it as much as possible, which would help explain why a Stormcast Eternal talks about driving Chaos out of the universe. If he can see stars in the night sky, wouldn't he possibly recognize there's more out there? But what if the realms were their own "universe," so that the people living there thought that was the whole universe?

Okay, tin foil hat off now. That's enough to lead people down a few rabbit holes.

[nsc]

I like the idea that the old ones tried to recreate the world that was, hence the fractured realms and ghosts of heroic souls.

Also, I more meant that people complain there aren't any lore but they're not buying the lore books. It amuses me.

[chipset35]

Thanks Guys! Yep, I have the Age of Sigmar book, but somehow I missed the part where the gate at the poles tears the world apart.
Well, I guess after catching up reading all this, I can see the issue at least for me.
I think GW did too much of a "fast forward" in setting the scene for AoS.
It left some of us blinking in shock.
IMHO, I would have preferred the world not be destroyed and instead have at least some vestige of it left in the form of races, characters, locations, ruins of famiiar places.
Instead, I find the slate wiped clean and the Storm Hosts just to antiseptic for me.
But thats just me.
I will continue to follow AoS though as I want it to succeed.

[Erik Setzer]

The destruction of the world isn't really mentioned much in AoS. I think there's a brief mention of it. To get the full story (well, the most important part, the end of it all), you'd need either the End Times: Archaon book, or Lord of the End Times (novel). If you can borrow both, it's interesting to read the slightly different versions of the ending.

AoS starts well separated from the End Times, and skipped ahead a good few thousand years. The biggest problem there is that the time period they skipped over sounds a lot more interesting than right now. Various cultures? Technomancers? Barbarian tribes? All these hints to the past... And there would have been actual stakes then, too. If you put the setting there, we don't already know that Chaos can't win.

I'm trying to read the novels, but so far it's making me more annoyed with the writers, because their depiction of the few survivors of Agshy, for example, makes no sense. To make it sound all grim and dark, they keep talking about how practically no one gets past 20, and very few make it to 20, and when they run from the Bloodreavers, the children and "elderly" (eh?) are the first ones caught and eaten. So already you have a serious population issue, that kind of situation, especially this far down the line where they're looking for the last few survivors and most everyone is dead (or Chaos), means that humanity is extinct, at least on Aqshy. There's also no mention of how they even survive to begin with. We can skip the lack of sunlight with "because magic!", but that doesn't explain how it describes the land as poisoned, no crops, the plants are poison, the water's poison, and there don't seem to even be any animals. In other words, the only sustenance is other people, meaning the *only* way these people can be surviving is the same cannibalism they're condemning in the Bloodreavers. They're not really that different. And how can you restart civilization with a malnourished band of cannibals numbering in the hundreds at best? (And that still doesn't answer the point that people need water, but all the water is poisoned, so how the heck are they getting water?)

At some point, the suspension of disbelief is bent so badly that it just shatters into millions of pieces. It's horrible storytelling. They tried to create a dystopian vision and instead made something so unrealistic and trope-ish that it's gone past being funny and is now just sad.

So maybe telling people to read the books isn't the best idea...

[Xodis]

Don't distract Dan Abnett, he's got Gaunt's ghosts books, the next Eisornhorn/Ravennor book, and whatever else they want for the heresy from him to do.

You also forgot the He-man comic book series going on right now....its awesome :D

[Psychosplodge]

I didn't, I wasn't aware/didn't care (delete as appropriate) as I covered the ones that mattered :D

[Just Tony]

I imagine things will pick up a bit again when new 40k starts dropping, ZPGs only good for lols at this stage, like

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/03/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms/

and

http://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2015/08/04/the-battle-for-the-realmgates-the-eight-realms-2/

for example.

Side splitting stuff.

Maybe they need to introduce a Realm of Resin with rules appropriate, then they can try to seduce people into buying Finecrap.


Well I see the dance around while rubbing your belly aspect of the game is still alive and well... maybe we're just playing this thing at the wrong level of intoxication.

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For me this has always been a GW board so I don't bother posting much about the other games here since you get better and broader feedback on them elsewhere.

Case in point, there isn't even a subforum for Star Trek Attack Wing. If I want to have ANY sort of discussion, I have to go elsewhere. However, coming here over the past month or so has resulted in only a couple WFB/AOS threads being responded to at all and the general mood of the place feeling like a ghost town.

I'm losing interest in anything but Classichammer at this point.

[Caitsidhe]

Maybe they need to introduce a Realm of Resin with rules appropriate, then they can try to seduce people into buying Finecrap.



Case in point, there isn't even a subforum for Star Trek Attack Wing. If I want to have ANY sort of discussion, I have to go elsewhere. However, coming here over the past month or so has resulted in only a couple WFB/AOS threads being responded to at all and the general mood of the place feeling like a ghost town.

I'm losing interest in anything but Classichammer at this point.

Yep. Forums like this are canaries in the coal mine. I've said this before and been told I'm crazy. :D However, there is a direct correlation between activity on Forums and interest/sale of a product. If what is happening around the internet is any indicator (and I am submitting that it is) then AOS is going down like a submarine with screen doors. The sad thing is there is also a steady decline in conversations about 40K too. It seems to mirror the slow but sure decline in discussions and interest online that befell WHFB. Food for thought.

[Auticus]

Thats very true. However - the facebook groups that are centered around Age of Sigmar seem to have a high post count that I am on.

A lot of people have said they got off forums because they were tired of the hostile attacking posts.

Now whether or not those people in the age of sigmar forums make up the difference - I cannot say. I know I'm in a couple that have a few thousand members each and am part of another few that have hundreds of members with regular traffic but I cannot say that they make up for the forums silence.

[Mr Mystery]

And how much is there to discuss?

If you enjoy the game, you're busy playing it. Without points, many topics of conversation are unnecessary. Consider other games. You have a finite points value to meet, so many conversations revolve around how to make the best use of them. X-Wing, Warmahordes, Infinity, 40k - all ripe for such topics, from 'how to create beardy lists' to 'how do I get the most out of this unit', and myriad topics in between.

AoS? Well, the topic just isn't there. You take whatever you want, with about the only rule for selecting your force being 'don't be an anus to your opponent'.

Background discussion? Well, that's still developing. I've got a thread charting the events of the various books so far (which reminds me - I need to grab Hammers of Sigmar today), but with only two forces (Stormcast Eternals and Bloodbound) having been covered in any depth so far, the potential for chit-chat is far more limited.

And Caitsidhe. If this is 'canaries in a coal mine' - how do you explain the lack of discussion about anything that isn't 40k, whilst also making bold claims that everyone else is seeing business boom? Because you seem to brush that observation off time and again. Can you please link us to the direct evidence you mention? Because as far as I'm aware, GW are the only publisher that posts financial results, other than FFG's parent company - who are going through rapid expansion by buying up other companies.

BoLS has been very quiet the past couple of weeks on the whole. Why? Who knows. None of us have enough info to look into that.

[Path Walker]

Forums are dead, Facebook finally killed them because it is much more useful, most people already have accounts and with Groups and Pages make it a lot easier to organize and talk about a whole host of different things.

Forums don't tell you anything except what the few weirdos who still post on Forums think. Seriously, this forum has what, 20 regular posters? So only a few play Age of Sigmar, only a few played Fantasy and most of the talk then was on lists building, which isn't a factor any more.

Otherwise, I guess Frostgrave has been a massive failure then, because the one post made about that game that I can see didn't get a single reply (However, when the post was turned into an article on blog, generated a ton of shares and likes on Facebook a few comments and lots of views.)

Canary in a coal mine? Maybe, because its mostly empty now and there is just a single person chirping on, ignored by everyone on the surface.

[Mr Mystery]

No way dude.

People respond to my posts. I'm totes not on my own.

Plus - biggest boost to FB over Forums? No hiding behind anonymity. People can call you out far more freely if you're being a passive aggressive troll moron (nobody on this thread. Speaking in general terms). You can't claim to be the successful owner of one hundred and eleventytwelve FLGS all of whom no longer stock Company X because reasons - on account we can nip to your profile and see you're just another kid at their parents talking utter mince.

Most importantly? The groups can be national, international, or just you and your 12 bezzie gaming buddies arranging games, discussing games and so on and so froth.

[Caitsidhe]

And how much is there to discuss?

If you enjoy the game, you're busy playing it. Without points, many topics of conversation are unnecessary. Consider other games. You have a finite points value to meet, so many conversations revolve around how to make the best use of them. X-Wing, Warmahordes, Infinity, 40k - all ripe for such topics, from 'how to create beardy lists' to 'how do I get the most out of this unit', and myriad topics in between.

AoS? Well, the topic just isn't there. You take whatever you want, with about the only rule for selecting your force being 'don't be an anus to your opponent'.

Background discussion? Well, that's still developing. I've got a thread charting the events of the various books so far (which reminds me - I need to grab Hammers of Sigmar today), but with only two forces (Stormcast Eternals and Bloodbound) having been covered in any depth so far, the potential for chit-chat is far more limited.

And Caitsidhe. If this is 'canaries in a coal mine' - how do you explain the lack of discussion about anything that isn't 40k, whilst also making bold claims that everyone else is seeing business boom? Because you seem to brush that observation off time and again. Can you please link us to the direct evidence you mention? Because as far as I'm aware, GW are the only publisher that posts financial results, other than FFG's parent company - who are going through rapid expansion by buying up other companies.

BoLS has been very quiet the past couple of weeks on the whole. Why? Who knows. None of us have enough info to look into that.

I can explain the lack of discussion by the fact that most of the other games have official websites and forums they support (and those are not dead). You guys can keep spinning things to make yourselves feel better. I remember when I first brought this up. I believe way back then you told me I was daft and the growing quiet was just seasonal. :D Right. Now it is because all the chatter from the throngs of growing GW fans has moved to Facebook? :) I merely comment on a clear trend. You want me to point you towards evidence? You are starting to sound like tobacco companies who insist that there isn't enough evidence to prove smokes cause the cancer. I like the fact that the only remotely active thread here has been one talking about the fact that nobody is posting. As it happens, I am on Facebook too. Funny stuff. I don't see those throngs. Perhaps I am missing these thriving communities. I'll do a few more searches. You guys just keep talking to each other (and yourselves) because it is kind of entertaining to watch. I expect in the end it might be just you and Pathfinder still making regular posts. I'm sure you will have wonderful, thought provoking discussions. :D

[Mr Mystery]

Nice attempt to obscure the issue.

Evidence of the trend that quiet forums = dying games, because it's sounding an awful lot like wishful thinking borne out of a desire to paint GW as incompetent for reasons best known to yourself.

[Caitsidhe]

Nice attempt to obscure the issue.

Evidence of the trend that quiet forums = dying games, because it's sounding an awful lot like wishful thinking borne out of a desire to paint GW as incompetent for reasons best known to yourself.

I'm not attempting to obfuscate anything. I've stated my clear belief and trends I observe. I don't need to paint GW as incompetent. They don't need any help from me. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Trend evidence. Please. Don't make me ask for a fourth time.

Also - biggest player in it's market, still in profit, still expanding it's number of stores. That's....that's not sounding incompetent to me. Particularly as their sales grew in the US last year, and this year there's a lot of decent computer game titles coming out to raise their profile (Warhammer Total War, Vermintide - both of which are getting positive media attention).

So. Counting this as a continuation of the third asking - evidence please to support this trend you claim to have spotted.

[Caitsidhe]

Trend evidence. Please. Don't make me ask for a fourth time.

Also - biggest player in it's market, still in profit, still expanding it's number of stores. That's....that's not sounding incompetent to me. Particularly as their sales grew in the US last year, and this year there's a lot of decent computer game titles coming out to raise their profile (Warhammer Total War, Vermintide - both of which are getting positive media attention).

So. Counting this as a continuation of the third asking - evidence please to support this trend you claim to have spotted.


Look around? We should have another financial report too. :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro

[Mr Mystery]

Right. Fourth and final time of asking - evidence please to support your assertion that a lack of online chit-chat proves a game has bombed.

Ready when you are.

Any second.

Any second now.

Also, if you could pop back to my point about 'well, without points restrictions, how much is there actually to talk about in the first place?', that'd be great.

[Caitsidhe]

Right. Fourth and final time of asking - evidence please to support your assertion that a lack of online chit-chat proves a game has bombed.

Ready when you are.

Any second.

Any second now.

Also, if you could pop back to my point about 'well, without points restrictions, how much is there actually to talk about in the first place?', that'd be great.


Can I scientifically prove it? No. If nothing you are seeing has any affect on you whatsoever... there is literally nothing I could point at that would convince you otherwise. I expect when things are unmistakable you will start saying that GW was brilliant and killed by internet Trolls. :D This will be my final video comment on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj7tun-ePIY

[Mr Mystery]

You'll have to forgive my approach.

You see, I'm a dispute mediator by trade. And that means I like to see evidence, so I can weigh up the claims.

It would have been much quicker for you to just say 'I reckon that....', rather than suggest you had any kind of hard data to back up your seemingly baseless assumption.

Now then. My point about 'well, without points, how much is there to actuall discuss'. If you please.

[Just Tony]

And how much is there to discuss?

If you enjoy the game, you're busy playing it. Without points, many topics of conversation are unnecessary. Consider other games. You have a finite points value to meet, so many conversations revolve around how to make the best use of them.

What about combos? AOS thrives on the "synergies" (God, I want to vomit just typing that word...) between characters and units, and already there are discussions on other forums about said combos. This site? Nope. This site is not prolific with AOS at all. Any talk about older WFB systems has been chased off, I would guess this is what "self moderation" does. I see an attempt of the same thing on Warseer, except there isn't a move to make the WFB section solely an AOS section like it is here.

Also, I think/feel/whatever (Just so you don't ask me to scientifically quantify) that if GW actually ran a forum on its own site like it did in years past, like the other gaming companies do, then we could have a definitive metric of traffic vs. traffic. Also, there is a vast difference between a company that was quantifiably at the top of the market and companies that are rising from the floor up. If they are even close to meeting in the middle, then you have a very clear picture of the state of the gaming market, and a distinct idea of the success/failure of AOS and GW as a whole. If there is a wide gap, then I will concur that fearmongering is the soup du jour. However, discussion with shops in my area paint a picture that makes me confident in my non-concurrence.

[Mr Mystery]

What about combos? AOS thrives on the "synergies" (God, I want to vomit just typing that word...) between characters and units, and already there are discussions on other forums about said combos. This site? Nope. This site is not prolific with AOS at all. Any talk about older WFB systems has been chased off, I would guess this is what "self moderation" does. I see an attempt of the same thing on Warseer, except there isn't a move to make the WFB section solely an AOS section like it is here.

Also, I think/feel/whatever (Just so you don't ask me to scientifically quantify) that if GW actually ran a forum on its own site like it did in years past, like the other gaming companies do, then we could have a definitive metric of traffic vs. traffic. Also, there is a vast difference between a company that was quantifiably at the top of the market and companies that are rising from the floor up. If they are even close to meeting in the middle, then you have a very clear picture of the state of the gaming market, and a distinct idea of the success/failure of AOS and GW as a whole. If there is a wide gap, then I will concur that fearmongering is the soup du jour. However, discussion with shops in my area paint a picture that makes me confident in my non-concurrence.

There's plenty synergy in AoS, but without a fixed points limit or method of army selection (FoC etc), then any given player can field any given combo with relative freedom.

BoLS has had a very quiet Warhammer section since I first joined in June 2012. Why? I dunno. There was a concerted effort by a few of us from the Oubliette to spark more conversations, but it didn't work out as we hoped.

As for Classichammer....yeah, that's just Path being Path. Start some threads, and tell Path to bog off, reporting his posts as necessary.

Trouble with comparing various gaming companies, is that only two currently publish their results. GW, and FFG's parent company Asmodeé Éditions.

FFG's parent company does primarily board games - with a chunk of that being licensed, French language versions of other games. At their heart they're not in the same niche as GW - so any direct comparison is kind of flawed.

But we do know GW's results - every six months. Past couple of years have been ropey, but we can see they remain in profit, carry no debt, and they continue to expand their retail division - close stores that aren't working out, open new ones elsewhere. That's not a company in dire straits at all.

When the usual commentators break out their doom'n'gloom bells, it's always GW looked at in isolation. No thought is given to the wider high street and other trends. Nope. All down to management incompetence and GW being EVILBAD.

Is everything completely rosey? Nope. Are they on an irreversible downward slide? Seemingly not.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Just (to throw annecdotal evidence around) i'm part of a thriving 1600 member AOS facebook group, and my local store has a large and growing AOS group.
So yes, to pull an MRA on you "Not All Gamers" treat Age of Sigmar badly.

[Path Walker]

Can I scientifically prove it? No. If nothing you are seeing has any affect on you whatsoever... there is literally nothing I could point at that would convince you otherwise. I expect when things are unmistakable you will start saying that GW was brilliant and killed by internet Trolls. :D This will be my final video comment on it:



You did say that you could prove it by saying you had evidence.

[Erik Setzer]

Trend evidence. Please. Don't make me ask for a fourth time.

Also - biggest player in it's market, still in profit, still expanding it's number of stores. That's....that's not sounding incompetent to me. Particularly as their sales grew in the US last year, and this year there's a lot of decent computer game titles coming out to raise their profile (Warhammer Total War, Vermintide - both of which are getting positive media attention).

So. Counting this as a continuation of the third asking - evidence please to support this trend you claim to have spotted.

Um... Dude. Did you read their annual report? Their sales are down overall, and they're only making profit because they keep cutting things as much as possible. They froze their employees' salaries. You don't do that if you're doing well. You do that if you know you're in trouble. It certainly doesn't help people want to stick around with your company.

They're having to open new stores because they have such a bad attitude toward anyone else selling their stuff. And they'd love to just cut out the middle man. Of course, that'd just make them even more niche, which would not be good.

More stores and longer hours doesn't even mean they're doing great. The local store is now open 24/7 and it's still doing bad. Events aren't drawing in people. It's so bad they were saying you have to make a purchase to be able to vote for the Armies on Parade (which didn't get a terribly good showing this year). Seriously? The AoP event should be able to get people in the door, and then, you convince them to make a purchase, you don't say, "Well, you can't have a vote on these armies unless you buy something." That's horrible. It's desperation. But you'd suggest their being open more hours means they're doing great?

The computer game titles are also going to be a mess for GW. Blood Bowl II, Mordheim, Warhammer: Total War, and Vermintide: What do these all have in common? That's right, folks, they all happen in the setting GW blew up and replaced with Age of Sigmar (a setting that has no room for something like Blood Bowl). So people buy all these games, and it does what for GW? They make a lot off of licensing? They might make some off of it, yeah. But say someone enjoys Blood Bowl or Mordheim (or Man'O'War), and thinks, "I want to play that in miniature form! Where do I sign up, Games Workshop?" NOWHERE! Those games got killed because the Profit Machine has no use for small-scale games. "Oh man, I love this ranked combat in this fascinating world! Where do I sign up, Games Workshop?" NOWHERE! That world is gone and ranked combat is dead with it. There's not going to be a lot of people playing a completely different setting and different styles of game who look at AoS and think that's a good continuation point.

[Psychosplodge]

It's pretty standard in UK retail to only get a payrise when the government puts the minimum wage up Erik. A payfreeze in this context doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Path Walker]

They're not doing badly, yes, sales are down but profits are up, they're in a position where they're making money and now they're increasing store numbers and availability to try and up those sales again. You can doom-say as much are you like but it doesn't mean its true, they're in a really strong position right now.

Also Blood Bowl has never been set in the Old World. Thus why there is never any mention if it in WFB at all, its a world similar to but not the same as the Old World, changed forever by the discovery of Blood Bowl.

The old world hasn't been erased, or wiped from the continuity, the story has moved on, I don't know why that's so hard for you to grasp Erik.

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On topic, playing Age of Sigmar as part of a campaign has been great, it scales well, so we can have little border skirmishes and raids as well as bigger pitched battles. Currently my Rotbringer Horde is doing very, very badly, tomorrow sees them fighting with the Skaven who recently gained an artefact that lets them summon undead into battle. I don't expect it to end well for me, still, another few battles and I can finally call on the Brothers Glott to join me in the city, then the tables will turn and I shall wreck a terrible vengeance.

[Mr Mystery]

Get the Maggoth that gobs on people. Gob on the relic holder. Job jobbed!

[Path Walker]

Job Gobbed?

Still trying to think of a) some rules and B) some way I can get my new FW Fimir unit into my army, they're so lovely.

[Mr Mystery]

Use them as Ironguts.

Ironguts rule. They can butter the battlefield with units at a time! Splish!

[Path Walker]

Urgh yeah don't remind me! I though a unit of Chaos Warriors would be able to deal with some Ironguts, I was very, very wrong!

[Mr Mystery]

It's the Damage 3. Once they're through your armour, things get messy very, very quickly. Especially with their 2" range - I can often damage stuff that can't fight back.

[Erik Setzer]

It's pretty standard in UK retail to only get a payrise when the government puts the minimum wage up Erik. A payfreeze in this context doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Well, UK's horrible business practices aside (sorry, but that's a ridiculous policy), it was said in the annual report that salaries were being frozen until they saw an increase in sales. To quote:

"I have set a goal of getting the business into sales growth in 2015/16 and have asked staff to accept a salary freeze until December 2015 to allow us to maintain our cost to sales ratio."

So, yeah, it means something. It means that sales have slipped enough that they're holding raises hostage to try to push people into bringing the company's sales up, because, you know, that's easier than actually considering what might be causing the issues.

It also, conveniently, keeps costs down, so they can remain in profit. And everyone knows that having any sliver of profit means they're doing great!

[Psychosplodge]

I don't think there's any point comparing that as that's about our average reaction to your service industry staff relying on tips.
That will apply to none hourly paid staff, so yeah it'll affect the likes of the development team probably, sections of management etc.
The retail staff? probably no difference at all.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

Sounds about right. When i worked for GW they tended to make all of their cost cuts and redundancies a top-down affair. They didn't reach retail until they could go no-where else, like the "lotr is making us HUGE cash, lets massively over-hire without realising that this bubble is going top pop" scenario. That was a bad one for retail.
But 90% of the time when GW culls or pay freezes it's head office roles, they treat their retail staff better than any other shop-floor job I've ever worked.
Incidentally, if GW are reading this, please hire me back. :) 😉

[grimmas]

It is worth remembering that inflation in the UK is about 0 - 0.1% pay rises aren't exactly high or even common anywhere. Also the Euro zone is still f**ked (technical term) so things on finances front are going to remain cautious at best.

Like it or not GW is a British company so the prevailing economic situation in Europe is going to have the largest effect on its policy.

[Erik Setzer]

It is worth remembering that inflation in the UK is about 0 - 0.1% pay rises aren't exactly high or even common anywhere. Also the Euro zone is still f**ked (technical term) so things on finances front are going to remain cautious at best.

Like it or not GW is a British company so the prevailing economic situation in Europe is going to have the largest effect on its policy.

Except that they specifically noted why they were doing the salary freeze. It's right there in the report. And since they followed up with a promise that, if things go well enough to unfreeze they'd retroactively do reviews for pay increases (something they should get a tip of the hat for, at least), that means it's not because of the economy, it's because their sales have slipped and they think applying pressure to the staff will help.

[Morgrim]

I am suddenly much more interested in AoS. I don't like chaos and I don't like sigmarites, but lizardmen? Yes please!

[Path Walker]

I work for the UK Government (can't tell you which bit, ooooh) and I've had 4 years of pay freezes followed by 2 years of 1% pay rises, like the entire public sector. Once again, Erik is talking about things he knows nothing about, a pay freeze for salaried staff right now is not uncommon in the UK unfortunately.

Anyway, into other news, fluff wise, does anyone know if any of the Realms are snowy? I've not read anything about it but I would assume that Ghur, maybe Shyish, could be snowy in places?

I've got a load of terrain in progress for Frostgave (snowbound ruins of an ancient city) so wondering where this would be if I wanted to use it for Age of Sigmar? I do like the idea of it being a lost city in the Realm of Death, haunted by spirits of those who lived there, frozen as a last bid attempt to drive off the invaders and save its inhabitants by a Wizard when the Forces of Chaos attacked it.

[Mr Mystery]

I think any of them can. The Realms aren't particularly uniform!

[Path Walker]

I think any of them can. The Realms aren't particularly uniform!

Its not snow, its the ashes of the burned victims of the Ur-Salamander etc etc

[Mr Mystery]

You could also have lakes.

LAKES OF THE TEARS OF THOSE WHO DO NOT LIKE THE GAME.

[Path Walker]

I heard the Realm of Fire is heated by the impotent rage of people who cry about AoS and GW.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed it is. That's completely and 100% true.

[nsc]

The FLGS I'm at has a snow table, we've even used book scenarios on it, the particular scenario was from the realm of metal, where the stormcasts are walking on a lake of metal which a corrupted space-dragon (I guess they're skydrakes or something? My memory is off, I've been working too hard) is heating up so things start sinking into the metal and dying.

It was pretty easy to just say "the icey-ground is melting and nagash skeletons are popping out of the ice and dragging guys down" but the skaven town was built on warpstone foundations so it's safe.

It also was much cooler than "yeah 3 guys from you squad die" because it was "three skeletons burst from the icy ground and drag the skaven screaming to the icy depths"

Snow terrain looks very sharp imo, I love playing on it.

[Path Walker]

Thats really cool, last week I played the one with all the fog in the woods, really fun Battleplan, you can't see through the fog so charging and shooting is really hard, but you can set up ambushes in it if you plan ahead, definitely recommend that one, its in the Ghal Maraz book

[AoS Noob]

Looks like the next army Saurian (lizard men) is about to release. Maybe that will be cool? I was starting to wonder how long they would wait to release the next army. Should be all kinds of new books and lore stuff to read about soon.

[nsc]

It's slow as they organize horus heresy and dedicate shipping+warehouse space to space marines.

Lizardmen reboxing seems decent, I'm disappointed there's no "battalion" since that was good value and now there's no "good value" intro box to lizardmen. The individual boxes got a bit better for price-per-mini so that's something.

The battletome price isn't bad either, and they have what I love most, alternate colour schemes for armies :)

[Grey_Knight_Dweeb]

1)

This is a type of world building which in design is known as "top down" and it is very popular. Now, if you don't like it, it's fine for you to say that you don't like it, but it's not fine for you to say that this is bland, sloppy, or bad. They've done a very good job of top down world design, providing a great deal of detail for the mortal planes within gorgeous maps, and very well placed and teased top-down lore design. MaRo very famously talked about the first edition of magic, where things like Shivian Dragons excited many people into wonder, "Where is shiv? Why does it have dragons?"

If this type of curiosity doesn't appeal to you then I'm sorry, it appeals to me and it's wonderful. With every page turn there's more to discover within this age and it's very exciting for me.

3) I cannot excite you friend, but if you don't like the design style of the setting then I suppose there's nothing to be done.

What does it matter if something is popular in this context?

It is completely, 100% OK for him to say that it is bland, sloppy or bad. He could even claim that Age of Sigmar is mayonnaise and that would be OK.

I like Age of Sigmar (mostly) but if someone doesn't like it for some reason it's no skin off my ***.

[benn grimm]

I lost interest as soon as I knew what it was, good for you for sticking with it this long. I think its a crass game, in a crass setting, so i don't play it. Still love converting and messing about with all the awesome Fantasy models they produce though, which, I'm guessing, probably wouldn't be still being produced if it weren't for AoS.

[HsojVvad]

Is it 2005? I was saying and boasting how GW was going to be done that the LotR bubble has burst and their price increases will bankrupt them blah blah blah. Boy do I have egg on my face eh? I was shocked to see GW still run the way they do even now. Finally in 2016 GW is changing ever so slowly. I was wrong then, a lot of you are wrong now.

We don't know what we are talking about. If we did we would be owning companies like GW, Apple or Samsung if we were so smart. We are all idiots. Well most of us are. We don't have a clue what we say. GW was tanking in 2005. GW was tanking before that when I started GW. GW is tanking now in 2016.

I guess throw enough dung against the wall it will eventually stick.

GW is not going anywhere. They may change, but they will still be around.

Now let's get back on topic. I am starting to gain interest now. Finally the sigmarines are not in the limelight now. There is a book that I find "worth" to buy. There is great starter sets out now. So interest is finally starting for at least me. Will that translate into buying? Time will tell. At least the interest is there now.

GW got me interested. I bought the starter box set.
GW go me uninterested so I never bought anything more.
GW got me interested again, but it's now up to GW to get my interest into buying.

Time will tell what happens now.