Based off what we know now:

[Shagrath]

In the last couple marines codexes, the themes of those particular armies have been expanded upon.(in some cases to a ridiculous points ala thunderwolves)

Based off what we know from fluff and previous incarnations how do you feel templars and dark angels will be expanded upon in the future?

[RocketRollRebel]

Well unfortunately the current DA codex is about 4 years old so I don't see it coming anytime soon really. I'd say we'll see BT in the next 12-18 months tho. Not an army that is underpowered completely but they certainly could use an update.

DA (and BA PDF to a lesser extent) just had the unfortunate privilege of being the Beta codex for how GW was gonna re-do Space Marines.

[Crevab]

Templar LR Crusaders will become Fast?
They'll get the best psychics in the game?

Dark Angels will get a mythical creature like the Sanguinor/Living Saint?
The book will be written by Cruddace and they'll get a Heavy 20 plasma weapon. With an AP no better than 5

[BuFFo]

They'll have really cool stuff.

[Atrocity]

they'll have really cool stuff.

qft

[Duke]

I could see DA having Terminators carrying Plasma cannons.

Black Templars Im not sure about.

Duke

[Aenir]

I dont know how they would expand upon their theme, theyve really started dropping the Native American bits, and TBH im not quite sure how to expand mysterious, perhaps certain dedicated *CENSORED BY INNER CIRCLE* Hunters?

[Lerra]

DA are so close to vanilla that it's a bit tricky - GW seems to want to give each chapter codex its own flavor. I can see them moving towards DA as the shooty chapter. Deathwing is already "shootier terminators" and Ravenwing is quite shooty compared to codex SM bikes.

I'd love to see 5-man terminator squads that are allowed to take 2 heavy weapons. Shooty Dreadnoughts have been a DA staple with the Mortis Pattern dreadnoughts with 2 autocannon arms or 2 plasma cannon arms. Ravenwing with attack bike squadrons and regular bike squadrons where every member can take a meltagun or flamer would work well.

Azrael exchanges Combat Tactics for the Relentless USR, so that the tactical marines become more effective gun platforms.

[Aenir]

I dont know if the mortis is pure DA anymore, I think the Vanilla marines can get a variant

perhaps Ares pattern as a normal siege LR?

return of Jink perhaps?

EDIT: Termy squads with MORE than 5 men?

[gcsmith]

Id like to see the BT as more knights, so unchinkable armour, both of ceramite and of faith

[Shagrath]

What we know will be in: bunches of new characters and the updating of equipment that da players have been hoping for

well here are a few of my ideas,

DA are a semi-codex chapter so sternguard and vanguard aren't out of the question I'd say.

I would love to see Bethor be a named upgrade char. for command squads with access to several banners.

Sammiel and Belial need buffs

the black swords need to be differentiated from relic blades.

I would like GW to emphasize how the Lion was a strategic genius famous for precision strikes (outflank or infiltrate maybe)

Both chapters may very well get the shiny new storm raven kit that will be out by then.

I would love to see some sort of emperor's champion character.

[crazyredpraetorian]

The Dark Angels will finally get some lacey trim for their dresses.

[DarkLink]

I predict the Grey Knight codex will consist of the following rule:"Before the game starts, the Grey Knight player takes a psychic test. If this test is successful, the entire enemy army's brains explode, and the Grey Knight player automatically wins. This test may be rerolled an unlimited number of times. Grey Knights are immune to the effects of psychic hoods and similar "

[BuFFo]

Mayhaps, probably, DA will get Cypher back.

[Fellend]

If we look at what makes BT special we see:
The vows
The Champion
"Marine Hordes"
No sergeants
Righteous Zeal
No psykers

BA has taken the fast aggressive chapter mark so I think that BT will become more hordey, Possibly alot cheaper marines and neophytes probably with free frags now so we can waste away marines (we are supposed to be more than other chapters after all)

The vows will either become character based or all will become more powerful and up to date (with Accept any challenge probably being completely changed as it's already good)

The Champion will probably get a 4+ invu against ranged as well and probably stat lines like a chapter master possibly then added the swords powers

Probably more special weapons but at higher cost

Righteous Zeal will probably be unaffected

And there'll be no psykers as it's BT but there'll probably be new special characters with either powers of special rules to give to the entire army

All stats will be updated to match the existing SM chapters.

[DarkLink]

For BT I could see losing Righteous Zeal, and instead whenever a unit fails a morale test they gain Rage and must start moving towards the nearest enemy unit next turn.

Edit: And BT will probably get holy monk/faith super powers (not psychic powers, mind you, tsk tsk for even thinking that), due to their ability to manipulate Ki thanks to their monk-like life. Or something to justify psychic powers, like with the Space Wolves.:rolleyes:

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Nearly everythign that is DA is now Vanilla.

Blade of sectrets = relic blades
Not going to even touch the infamous storm shields rules or lack of other problems that C:SM got from them.

That said, new characters, tougher stats, more plasma, oh and that BA have mroe dreads because there older than anyone else, crap DA are the first Legion ever created.
So Mortis dreads for them (again Vanilla got them too) and allow twin-plasma dreads.

Sternguard and Vanguard, make Ravenwing attack bikes squads again, bring back the 3 banners and make them eachdiferent again.
It was a shame to see them get shafted by GW i used to play them before i sold my 10k point army to a friend Cypher 71.

[DarkLink]

Nearly everythign that is DA is now Vanilla.


Honestly, they might as well have let you take Terminators as troops the same way as bikes in C:SM, and included Belial, Sammael and Azrael as special characters.

[Renegade]

For BT I could see losing Righteous Zeal, and instead whenever a unit fails a morale test they gain Rage and must start moving towards the nearest enemy unit next turn.

Edit: And BT will probably get holy monk/faith super powers (not psychic powers, mind you, tsk tsk for even thinking that), due to their ability to manipulate Ki thanks to their monk-like life. Or something to justify psychic powers, like with the Space Wolves.:rolleyes:

Arg! Nooo! BT should be one of the best anti-psykers in the game, maybe on par or better than SoB, but not quite as good as Necrons. Chaplains with null rods and an army wide hood that covers the whole board at Ld 10 or some such.
The Black Sword is pretty much fine as it is, but wouldn't mind a buff to the EC in general.
The vows should be changed, and I like the idea I read about Righteous Zeal changing to Rage + Fleet if they fail and Preferred Enemy + Fearless if they pass.
Vows should stay as something brought with the EC and there is only room for one or two more Special Characters, a normal Marshal and Castellen. But I would rather stick to the two we have and have them both boosted.
Maybe some kind of new stuff based on the Knightly aspect and the fluff that they are verging on being renegade. Having wargear and vehicles that a Chapter should not have and more fitting to the Holy Crusaders. No horses though!

[Duke]

I think the dark angels Codex will be one sentence: "This codex is awesome! but we can't tell you what is in it cause its a secret."

Duke

[david5th]

Without any specifics, i managed to attend to WD seminar at UK gamesday. They talked about how they develop codexs - Space wolves specifically and basically said it comes down to feasibility. They put all the ideas say can about what makes a force unqiue and then is down to feasibility of making the models themselves and then how they fit in the games mechanics. Hence Space Wolves marines riding giant Space Wolves .

[DarkLink]

Arg! Nooo! BT should be one of the best anti-psykers in the game, maybe on par or better than SoB, but not quite as good as Necrons. Chaplains with null rods and an army wide hood that covers the whole board at Ld 10 or some such.

Nor should they probably be as good as, say, Eldar or Grey Knights. Though Necrons are very vulnerable to the warp, which is one of the reasons why they have Pariahs.



The Black Sword is pretty much fine as it is, but wouldn't mind a buff to the EC in general.

... you do realize that the EC is basically a 2 wound SM Captain with artificer armor and a relic blade for, what, 100pts, plus he can give the entire army abilities like preferred enemy for ridiculously cheap? I assume you realize this, as you sound like a BT player. How, pray tell, could anyone justify buffing the EC more? I guess you could bump his cost up and give him 3 wounds or something...

Anyways, of all the things that need to be improved in the BT codex to bring it in line with 5th ed, the EC is most definitely not one of them.

[gcsmith]

the vows need updating, some are useless and OP

[Melissia]

Nor should they probably be as good as, say, Eldar or Grey Knights. Though Necrons are very vulnerable to the warp, which is one of the reasons why they have Pariahs.
Nor as good as the Sisters, either... the Sisters of Battle have been allied with (even if they aren't actually a part of) the Witch Hunters for a good deal of their existence after all...

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Nor as good as the Sisters, either... the Sisters of Battle have been allied with (even if they aren't actually a part of) the Witch Hunters for a good deal of their existence after all...

What is it like to smoke crack? Because there is no other justification or saying the Sisters are as pious as one of the oldest Chapters in the Imperium or matches their dedication towards the eradication of witchcraft. Templars > Sisters everyday.

[L192837465]

What is it like to smoke crack? Because there is no other justification or saying the Sisters are as pious as one of the oldest Chapters in the Imperium or matches their dedication towards the eradication of witchcraft. Templars > Sisters everyday.

How about female Templars?

[Melissia]

I'm not getting into that discussion-- suffice it to say that I believe you are hilariously wrong. My point was far better than that, however, you don't appear to have read it. And I quote, the post you SUPPOSEDLY responded to but apparently didn't actually read:


the Sisters of Battle have been allied with (even if they aren't actually a part of) the Witch Hunters for a good deal of their existence after all...
The Ordo Hereticus section of the Inquisition, the largest and most active branch, which is dedicated quite heavily to hunting down rogue psykers. They of all factions would be the best at actually killing and countering psykers, just like the Grey Knights / Daemonhunters would be best at hunting down and killing daemons.

[Renegade]

Nor should they probably be as good as, say, Eldar or Grey Knights. Though Necrons are very vulnerable to the warp, which is one of the reasons why they have Pariahs.[quote]

By Anti-Psyker, I meant that there rules and fluff as stands have them despising psykers, even going in to a rage when encountered on the battle field, to such a degree that they wont fight along side any psykers but GK, even Navigators and Astropaths that they hire are ones that are aware that they are mutants and are ashamed of what they are.
As it stand they have a vow that gives them a 5+ save against powers used at them, this could definitely do with a major buff. Having a further defence would fit the fluff, thus Chaplains getting a "null zone" effect or some such.

[QUOTE]... you do realize that the EC is basically a 2 wound SM Captain with artificer armor and a relic blade for, what, 100pts, plus he can give the entire army abilities like preferred enemy for ridiculously cheap? I assume you realize this, as you sound like a BT player. How, pray tell, could anyone justify buffing the EC more? I guess you could bump his cost up and give him 3 wounds or something... You have that back to front, and a Black Sword is not a relic blade as a Black Sword is one handed and the C:BT is now the oldest SM codex, so the Captian is a bit like the EC, but with lost more wargear options. The 4++ could be made into an all round save or made a 3++.
That "ridiculously cheap" power comes at a cost, as it is it is a nice buff, and is by no means "ridiculously" cheap when considering what 5ed codices get,I would say that "combat tactics" are cheap and so are "Orders", all psychic power are under-costed or over powered, as are Sargent's and AP3 bolters and 3++ storm shields, I could go on. All vows really need a shake up for 5ed.

I expect the Grimaldus will get EW as he basically has that now, and that our wargear will be brought in to line. It will be interesting to see what they do with Helbrecht, Assault Marines and some of our more unique upgrades and wargear, or what direction the Swordbrethren will go in.

I have no idea what they will do with the DA. Have them riding plasma cannons and plasma swap for all vehicle weapons?

Edit: While I agree that the Sister of Silence where around before the BT, I doubt that they could match the zealous hatred for any kind of mutant, alien, or traitor, let alone that of psykers, that the BT are suppose to have. Some of the Ordo Hereticus are psykers after all, none of the BT are.

[Fellend]

I don't see the Black Templar as the elite psyker killer warforce, there's the sisters to do that. They hate mutants, all forms of them, actually they hate pretty much everything not human or space marine.
But they should be more properly equipped to deal with the psyker threat, As you mentioned the 5+ save is kind of silly against the newer powers. And the drawback of the vow makes it useless. Everyone leaves their transport to rush forward and into the firing zone, where they can be targeted by psykers? Just not worth it.

And the Emperor's champion is nothing compared to the newer heroes and their powers. The vow is something we are forced to take (along with the EC) and again compared to the newer codexes and their powers the only vow worth mentioning is Accept any challenge.
And with AAC the chaplain because a useless IC, we are always fearless in assault, with a marshal lending us 10 ld, the marshal costs alot less and I have yet to find a single use of the Chaplain.
So basically, It would be nice if the chaplain offered somekind of psyker resistance to the army

[Melissia]

Edit: While I agree that the Sister of Silence where around before the BT, I doubt that they could match the zealous hatred for any kind of mutant, alien, or traitor, let alone that of psykers, that the BT are suppose to have. Some of the Ordo Hereticus are psykers after all, none of the BT are.

I never mentioned the Sisters of Silence at all. However, NO military organization in the Imperium could fight psykers as well as the Sisters of Silence could. Period. There is no room for discussion here. The Sisters of Silence were all Blanks-- they were all completely immune to all psychic powers of any kind, and their very presence is disturbing and maddening to psykers. Even Daemons could not withstand being anywhere near a Sister of Silence because of this-- their warp instability which is an innate feature of a immaterium-being present in the materium is multiplied dramatically by the presence of a nearby Blank. And this is an army made entirely of them.

Look up the rules for the Culexis Assassin. That is, in essence what the Sisters of Silence were, only the SoS were better armed, better organized, and more numerous. If the Sisters of Silence still existed in the "modern" timeline (M.41-ish), then the argument is over. No army, none, ever, no exceptions, is as good at countering psykers than the Silent Sisterhood.

However, I was referring to the Sisters of Battle, not the Sisters of Silence. The Adepta Sororitas already have the 5+ save against psychic powers, and theirs they have without any drawbacks, making them already better in the tabletop rules. But then we get into their relationship with the Ordo Hereticus. The Witch Hunters.

No, the Black Templars are not as good at hunting down and killing psykers as the Witch Hunters are. No, the Black Templars do not have the exotic technologies and techniques for countering psykers as the Witch Hunters do. No, the Black Templars do not have the intel, the research capability, or the sheer political authority and political knowhow, as the Witch Hunters do. The Black Templars cannot outdo the Witch Hunters at hunting witches. I do not particularly like the Inquisition, and wish that they were never shoved so haphazardly into my third edition Sisters codex, but even with my dislike of them, it is quite obvious that they are intended to be the best at what they do.

The Daemonhunters hunt Daemons (and at this, none are better than their militant arm, the Grey Knights).
The Xenohunters hunt aliens (Especially those infiltrating Imperial society).
And the Witch Hunters hunt witches (IE, illegal or disloyal psykers).

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I'm not getting into that discussion-- suffice it to say that I believe you are hilariously wrong. My point was far better than that, however, you don't appear to have read it. And I quote, the post you SUPPOSEDLY responded to but apparently didn't actually read:


The Ordo Hereticus section of the Inquisition, the largest and most active branch, which is dedicated quite heavily to hunting down rogue psykers. They of all factions would be the best at actually killing and countering psykers, just like the Grey Knights / Daemonhunters would be best at hunting down and killing daemons.

I follow the G.W.Bush school of thought on reading....

[Shagrath]

tl;dr?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Nvm

[Shagrath]

I think the dark angels Codex will be one sentence: "This codex is awesome! but we can't tell you what is in it cause its a secret."

Duke

with the recent rumors from dpa, and the bit about "ba are only half the story," and "marines winging their way to us soon", this might be a bit too true..;)

possibly best kept secret of 2010 if all this is true

[Levitas]

I actually dread to think and cant look. The BA dex is ridiculous with genuine fluff shattering contents. I am a BA fan too, but this stuff is just too far.

I am all for mixing it up. Ahem. But GW needs to reign it in some before it gets out of control. The wolf codex was strong, BA broken, Nids good all but Doom. I suspect they could go over board with templars. Maybe super cheap units makes them the horde marines. And as they 'lost' their crusader spot light I suspect a new variant. Maybe a super crusader that carries a whole company, and has 50 bolters.

DA will get more plastic robes. And you will be happy with that.

[Melissia]

Yeah, they really need to stop producing all of these variant Marine codices and trying to make them something other than variant Marine codices.

I follow the G.W.Bush school of thought on reading....
And you are a lesser man for it.

[Purge the Heretic]

with the recent rumors from dpa, and the bit about "ba are only half the story," and "marines winging their way to us soon", this might be a bit too true..;)

possibly best kept secret of 2010 if all this is true

especially since harry seemed to deny all suggestions he meant dark angels shortly thereafter in the very same thread he gave the "winging" rumor in?

Perhaps I misunderstood.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Touche

[eldargal]

"Winging their way" just meant they are coming, it really is not a rumour. If I mail someone something and text them "xxx is winging its say toyou now" it does not mean I've mailed some birds or something with wings.


especially since harry seemed to deny all suggestions he meant dark angels shortly thereafter in the very same thread he gave the "winging" rumor in?

Perhaps I misunderstood.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

One final note to agree with Melissia in that Black Templar's can not in any shape or form compare the ability for hunting Witches than that of the SoB.

Black Templars what at best maybe have just over what a 1000 marines all split up into small Crusades. Well the SoB have six Militant Orders of renown, not including smaller convents. Now the six main Orders are not limited by restrictive number, the have whole company level Orders.

The battle for Armeggeddon alone: Order of the Argent Shroud sent 700 sisters, Martyrd Lady sent 300.
And they have thousands of more, spread across the Imperium.
Black Templars only used 300 marines

[Fellend]

In all fairness the Black templar has about 6000 marines as they are secretly building a legion.
But I have no doubt that the SoB are better at actually hunting down the psykers and a broad sense better at killing them since they can do so pretty much anywhere in the galaxy backed up by the endless forces of the Inquisition.
But in the actual act of KILLING psykers I believe that the Black Templar are better. They are after all Space Marines and their 5+ save negates any psychic power plus they are immune to any minor psychic power (which now adays is pure fluff).
And as far as cool technology I don't think the BT are that far behind, they mention psybolts which instanly killed psykers, hexagrammatic wards which made them immune against all psychic influence.

Yes SoB is a dedicated anti witch force. They do their job better than anyone but their job includes finding, managing bringing under control, sort out the legal psykers from the traitors.
Black Templars kills any psyker that breathes, and they are damn good at it. But they do not search them out to hunt them down.

[Commissar Lewis]

Melissia, I have to say I love your caustic wit. Always makes my day reading your comments.

On topic, though, I dunno what to expect from either Templars or DA. One of my friends plays DA, but I never really read his codex.

[rbryce]

lol, black templars vs. sisters in anti psyker war. hmm, gonna go sisters here, as they do hunt psykers for a living, templars dont(arent they trying to make up for their primarch being emo?). the templar crusades arent crusades against psykers, their trying to gain face. on top of which, if you factor in the sororitas are tasked with bringing fallen chapters to justice(AKA exterminatus of the chapter), and you have some mean girls. in fact, with the templars huge numbers, if ever they actually get found out, itll be sororitas who take them down.

on topic, i can see them getting some new units, or old ones reintroduced. seems to be the current theme with dexs. maybe rejig the initiate system, that i can see.

[Renegade]

I actually dread to think and cant look. The BA dex is ridiculous with genuine fluff shattering contents. I am a BA fan too, but this stuff is just too far.


I disagree, and think that all the 5ed Codices released so far are balanced with each other. I hope that the SoB's Living Saint is at least on par with Mephiston, and that they get better abilities for "killing" psykers.Maybe a rethink on some of the units so that less units are a no-brainer and better. Maybe a Vulcan like character as well.

GK could do with a lot more thought and more available units. Definitely need a boost vs Daemons.

AH would be fun if they had or could upgrade to having all ap3 bolter rounds on all variants and relentless. Preferred enemy vs all alien races.

Not sure about the =][=, depends whether they get their own codex or not. Could imagine some great stuff if they do.

I would add that I was arguing for BT to get better defensiveabilities against psykers, like a better save or able to block powers for being cast if in an "area of effect" to reflect their general hatred of all psykers, loyalist or otherwise. But a general boosting in the other vows would also, I imagine will be on the cards. Will hopefully be able to take more power swords and special weapons.

DA stubborn on Greenwing and a boost in characters and wargear being brought in line. More plasma?

The CSM could do with the flavour returned from the 3.5ed.

Daemons could do with maybe more shooty stuff.

[Melissia]

I certainly don't disagree. The Living Saint is supposed to be nigh-unkillable, after all.

Whoops, she just got instant-killed by a multilaser. I guess there goes that...


If ANY T3 model has eternal warrior, the Living Saint should be it.

[The Madman]

i have to say i was disappointed when LR crusaders became standard for SM (can't recall if DA were allowed them too), it was a staple to BTs playing style. also i think BTs should get Commissar Yarrick as a special character too as he did hitch a ride after ghazghkull.

though in my opinion is that they should crank out the xeno and inquisition books before more SM

would like to see a CSM book which doesn't feel stripped of choice.

[Melissia]

It caused the DA player to play the standard SM codex, here.

[DarkLink]

They are after all Space Marines and their 5+ save negates any psychic power plus they are immune to any minor psychic power (which now adays is pure fluff).

You know that Sisters have that exact same 5+ save and are immune to minor psychic powers as well, right?

[Shagrath]

i guess ill shift my reasoning to dpa's rumors saying black templars are a ways off, and minor hints at dark angels.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

lol, black templars vs. sisters in anti psyker war. hmm, gonna go sisters here, as they do hunt psykers for a living, templars dont(arent they trying to make up for their primarch being emo?). the templar crusades arent crusades against psykers, their trying to gain face. on top of which, if you factor in the sororitas are tasked with bringing fallen chapters to justice(AKA exterminatus of the chapter), and you have some mean girls. in fact, with the templars huge numbers, if ever they actually get found out, itll be sororitas who take them down.

on topic, i can see them getting some new units, or old ones reintroduced. seems to be the current theme with dexs. maybe rejig the initiate system, that i can see.

Oh no he didn't....

[Fellend]

You know that Sisters have that exact same 5+ save and are immune to minor psychic powers as well, right?

I don't want to derail this thread any further but yes. They have the same immunity, so basically it comes down to who is best att killing things, SoB or Space marines, and we all know what the fluff says.

That being said that's the act of killing. SoB does the tracking, the discovering, the policing and fights never ending wars against the psykers. The Templar just swoops in, kills it dead and then moves on.

[Melissia]

Give a Sister stake crossbows or power stakes, and they can kill psykers easier than any Marine.

Yes, I do enjoy wounding ANYTHING psychic (Hive Tyrants come to mind) on a 2+ and ignoring armor saves.

At 24" range.

[Shagrath]

why does any argument in 40k in between two similar armies devolve into this "my dad can beat up your dad," nonsense. I have a particular Templar player as a close friend who thinks that they are the first and most assaulty of any chapter ever...Including world eaters, blood angels, wolves, and angry marines. There really never are any winners in fluff battles in 40k just a bunch of over opinionated people trying to assuage their collective egos.

Anyway after some thought I feel that the dark angels characters all need buffs to even compete with the current editions characters. I don't think the landspeeder storm would be out of place either.