Lord Mayhem
07-27-2015, 11:35 AM
I was idly considering the who issue of turn sequencing (how does the game structure work) and the issue of who gets first turn as a game balance issue, and started wondering how would alternative turn structures work in 40K, as a thought experiment.
Background:
In general the “who goes first” roll is one of the most significant one in the game (though the “steal the initiative” roll probably has more emotional impact ). Knowing (to 85% accuracy) that you are first or second directly influences deployment strategies, and can provide advantages in taking objectives, seizing key terrain and eliminating enemy forces, before they can do anything (especially if they rely on Psychic defences). Obviously terrain, skill, and luck can influence it, but going first can provide a significant advantage. One of the old offsets, last turn moves to seize objectives is now a huge gamble due to the random gamelength.
Game turn structure can be done in a number of ways; generally divided into movement and action phases (40K goes with a move-action-move/action setup). The biggest variant is how the alternation between players occurs. For notation I will use M and A for Movement and Action phases (generalizing here) and 1 and 2 for the players. Army means all units act together in each phase, Unit means individual units act per phase.
So by this 40K uses a Army M1-A1-A1/ M2-A2-A2 structure. (yes, everyone knows this, but it serves as a notation demonstrator)
Common alternatives include Individual M1-A1-A1/ M2-A2-A2, and Army or Unit M1/M2-A1/A2-A1/A2 (ie all movement is done by both sides before actions occur)
Hypothesis/Discussion:
What if 40K instead used an Army M1/M2-A1/A2 structure? (side A moves, Side B moves, Side A shoots, etc) I considered Unit systems, but feel they become unwieldy at 40K battle sizes, and Joining units gets complicated.
So player A wins first turn, and moves all his units. Player B then moves all his units in response, repeat for all other phases (in the assault phase Player A conducts all charges, then Player B, then fights are resolved).
This would create a more fluid battlefield as player B can react to Player A movement before being shot, allowing him to reposition to reduce the effects of an alpha strike. Player A still has the advantage of having the initiative for maneuver (potentially driving Player Bs maneuver options), and still shoots first, but now Player Bs movements have to consider Player As shooting , and Player As shooting has to allow for Player Bs movement ( whereas now each player can maneuver with an expectation that shooting will allow for a more advantageous position before the enemy can respond. Similarly, you’ve already received their shooting, so the choice of moving or not is less influenced by immediate threats)
My own speculation is that this would make for a more mobile and faster game, with more tactical decision making, though several special rules would need reworking, and Army balance might need revisiting. Assault would appear to be harder to pull off (as potential assaultees could react by moving away), so moving charges up in the turn order would seem a logical choice (Like Fantasy; charge during the Movement phase, fight after shooting). Overwatch should be adjusted. If the charge moved to movement phase, Overwatch would also move, then a unit that fires overwatch would only fire snapshots in the shooting phase (if the charge fails) and/or could only shoot at the assault unit (Still trying not to get assaulted!)
Move Shoot Move Units (Eldar Jetbikes, XV-8s etc) would need reworking to reflect their ability to avoid return fire; some sort of evade option, similar to Warp Spiders would seem appropriate(maybe with an I test); if not used they can make a normal “assault move” at the end of shooting.
I’m suspecting that several “continuing effects” could be tidied up with this system, but have not yet looked into it.
Sub Variant Option: split shooting phase into 2 sub phases: units that don’t move shoot before units that do. This would allow for “fire and maneuver” tactics where one unit provides cover for another maneuvering unit. (Similar effects could be achieved by giving stationary units pinning, or -1BS while moving-it’s hard to aim when you’re sprinting to your next position) Would be more realistic, but slows down the game, so probably not worth it as more than an idle thought.
Opinions or extrapolation? What rules would need most tweaking? How do you think your army would be affected?
I’m kind of considering working this into a full “overhaul” just to see how it would work out.
Background:
In general the “who goes first” roll is one of the most significant one in the game (though the “steal the initiative” roll probably has more emotional impact ). Knowing (to 85% accuracy) that you are first or second directly influences deployment strategies, and can provide advantages in taking objectives, seizing key terrain and eliminating enemy forces, before they can do anything (especially if they rely on Psychic defences). Obviously terrain, skill, and luck can influence it, but going first can provide a significant advantage. One of the old offsets, last turn moves to seize objectives is now a huge gamble due to the random gamelength.
Game turn structure can be done in a number of ways; generally divided into movement and action phases (40K goes with a move-action-move/action setup). The biggest variant is how the alternation between players occurs. For notation I will use M and A for Movement and Action phases (generalizing here) and 1 and 2 for the players. Army means all units act together in each phase, Unit means individual units act per phase.
So by this 40K uses a Army M1-A1-A1/ M2-A2-A2 structure. (yes, everyone knows this, but it serves as a notation demonstrator)
Common alternatives include Individual M1-A1-A1/ M2-A2-A2, and Army or Unit M1/M2-A1/A2-A1/A2 (ie all movement is done by both sides before actions occur)
Hypothesis/Discussion:
What if 40K instead used an Army M1/M2-A1/A2 structure? (side A moves, Side B moves, Side A shoots, etc) I considered Unit systems, but feel they become unwieldy at 40K battle sizes, and Joining units gets complicated.
So player A wins first turn, and moves all his units. Player B then moves all his units in response, repeat for all other phases (in the assault phase Player A conducts all charges, then Player B, then fights are resolved).
This would create a more fluid battlefield as player B can react to Player A movement before being shot, allowing him to reposition to reduce the effects of an alpha strike. Player A still has the advantage of having the initiative for maneuver (potentially driving Player Bs maneuver options), and still shoots first, but now Player Bs movements have to consider Player As shooting , and Player As shooting has to allow for Player Bs movement ( whereas now each player can maneuver with an expectation that shooting will allow for a more advantageous position before the enemy can respond. Similarly, you’ve already received their shooting, so the choice of moving or not is less influenced by immediate threats)
My own speculation is that this would make for a more mobile and faster game, with more tactical decision making, though several special rules would need reworking, and Army balance might need revisiting. Assault would appear to be harder to pull off (as potential assaultees could react by moving away), so moving charges up in the turn order would seem a logical choice (Like Fantasy; charge during the Movement phase, fight after shooting). Overwatch should be adjusted. If the charge moved to movement phase, Overwatch would also move, then a unit that fires overwatch would only fire snapshots in the shooting phase (if the charge fails) and/or could only shoot at the assault unit (Still trying not to get assaulted!)
Move Shoot Move Units (Eldar Jetbikes, XV-8s etc) would need reworking to reflect their ability to avoid return fire; some sort of evade option, similar to Warp Spiders would seem appropriate(maybe with an I test); if not used they can make a normal “assault move” at the end of shooting.
I’m suspecting that several “continuing effects” could be tidied up with this system, but have not yet looked into it.
Sub Variant Option: split shooting phase into 2 sub phases: units that don’t move shoot before units that do. This would allow for “fire and maneuver” tactics where one unit provides cover for another maneuvering unit. (Similar effects could be achieved by giving stationary units pinning, or -1BS while moving-it’s hard to aim when you’re sprinting to your next position) Would be more realistic, but slows down the game, so probably not worth it as more than an idle thought.
Opinions or extrapolation? What rules would need most tweaking? How do you think your army would be affected?
I’m kind of considering working this into a full “overhaul” just to see how it would work out.