Villains and the theory of narrative.

[Fueldrop]

The forces of Chaos.
The Orks.
The Dark Eldar.
The Tyranids.

These are the 'bad guys' of the 41st millennium. They're also all bottom-tier codexes. The one codex that's both a villain and not bottom-tier is Necrons, who've been inching away from their villain status.

This is a bad thing.

One of the best-known theories of storytelling is that a hero is measured by the villains he faces. Superman would be far less impressive if he only fought common criminals. Green Lantern would be far less heroic if he focused on jaywalkers. Likewise, Space Marines don't look badass and heroic for beating up Chaos Marines any more. They look like bullies. Eldar don't look heroic for holding the line against tyranids any more, they look boring as their massed rapid fire hit and run rending and strength-D flamers leave wave after wave of dead bugs.

To be frank, this meta needs a better class of villain. Let's give it to them.

[daboarder]

Many speculate that this is often done deliberately by GW as they believe the "good guys" sell better.

Other potentials are due to the fact that except for Dark Eldar many of these codexes were quite popular in the early 2000's thus GWs poor release for these books can be perceived as a lack of effort given that the market is saturated with armies from these codexes.

What I personally feel is more likely is that these codexes still suffer from the "less is more" days where each codex GW refuses to give them more treatment than other books, meaning that they are starting already on a lower peg and are only increased by the same interval as those higher, meaning that they will forever remain the same distance below the other codexes in terms of options and power.

Whether you believe these theories or not the fact remains that without market research or an understanding or interaction with the community these imbalances and design alterations will continue

[Cap'nSmurfs]

*softly whispers* the craftworld eldar aren't heroes

[Fueldrop]

*softly whispers* the craftworld eldar aren't heroes

Let's be honest, there are no heroes in the 41st millennium. The point remains that weak enemies don't make things interesting, or fun.

[Deathmage]

50% of pre game conversations between me and my freind whilst getting out my Chaos Space Marines: 'Are you using Eldar?' 'Yes' 'You win'. Then I pretend to pack up until he changes his mind, as its no fun being gunned down with out a fight... Welcome to 40k!

[shiwan8]

50% of pre game conversations between me and my freind whilst getting out my Chaos Space Marines: 'Are you using Eldar?' 'Yes' 'You win'. Then I pretend to pack up until he changes his mind, as its no fun being gunned down with out a fight... Welcome to 40k!

This is something I luckily do not have to do. That being said, I'm not in any way giving anything less than the absolute worst cheese I can field against the stupidly op codices I face. What I've noticed is that every time I present an idea that can actually give a challenge to one of my opponents it's always OP. Compared to what I face these things are in par at most. I find this hilarious.

[Merellin]

Dosent Necrons count as villains? I mean they are an ancient evil who kills everyone they come across (And some of them even turn people into statues and art work for his museum..=P)

[YorkNecromancer]

I wouldn't have said any faction in 40K was the 'bad guy'. They're all horrible. Assigning 'villain' status to any of the codicies you've listed is insane, and seems based more on Tolkein/ AD&D than 40K.

As I've argued before (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/06/40k-editorial-faintly-aggressive-society-claims-its-supremely-moral.html), the Imperium is absolutely evil, through and through. Individual armies may be more or less moral than others, but overall? Humanity is completely and abjectly monstrous, it just dresses itself up as the good guys.

As for the Eldar, I've discussed them too (http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/40k-deep-thought-are-eldar-actually.html), albeit at less length, and I have to say I think they're kinda worse because they're so bloody arrogant about it. There's not a single good (as in 'moral, decent, compassionate') bone in an Eldar's body, just a ruthless racial supremacist manifesto that says 'Well, we're not as bad as Slaanesh, so we're okay!'.

The Dark Eldar are definitely evil, because that's their Hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats), but they're also woefully outnumbered, so not a credible villain. They'd be an excellent 'mind-behind-the-masterplan' faction, only that's Tzeentch's Hat, so they can't have it, which is a shame. Their codex definitely needs improving, though.

The Orks aren't evil, because they're a culture that's just completely removed from any remotely human conception of morality. You'd never be able to convict an Ork of murder, for example, because it's a concept that carries no meaning for them. Are they a threat? Oh, absolutely. But evil? Not really.

And the same with the Tyranids... Although it would be cool if it turned out the Hive Mind was actually evil, rather than just hungry. As it is, Tyranids are just a shark, eating because that's what it does.

And in terms of 'the hero is only as good as the villain'... Well, that's true on a personal narrative level. Would I like to see these codexes made stronger? Yes, absolutely.

But thinking about 40K in terms of 'goodies' and 'baddies' does a massive disservice to a setting whose primary appeal is moral complexity. There are no 'heroic' factions in 40K, just like real-life. Anyone who claims otherwise is looking through the lens of personal favoritism.

And seriously, f**k the Craftworld Eldar. They are easily the most evil pr!cks in the 40K setting; at least the 'Dark' variety have the decency to be honest about it. An Eldar would trick you into killing your own children and make you think you'd done it for your own good... All to save his family's ancestral rose garden, because a Eldar flower is worth more than you, your family, or your world combined.

Hateful, arrogant, pointy-eared motherf**kers. 'Good guys', my a**

[Mr Mystery]

I'd agree Orks aren't evil or otherwise villainous. Warfare, scrapping, fighting and tearing around in dakka laden vehicles is, quite literally, in their DNA.

In order to be evil/villainous, there has to be a moral decision involved. The choice to do something society holds to be wrong. Orks just lack that entirely.

If anything, Craftworld Eldar are the true evil. Dark Eldar? Not even close. They'll raid a settlement, sure. Perhaps depopulate a Hive. But that to them is no different to is nipping to the shops and stocking up the ladder. Slaves and suffering are what they survive on. The unwilling sacrifice of the relatively few sustains the life of untold billions of Dark Eldar.

But Craftworld Eldar? They'll think nothing, absolutely nothing, of slaughtering an entire planet full of 'lesser species' to save a handful of Eldar lives. That, is evil. It's the polar opposite of many a moral quandary, such as the classic mid-west legend of the mother who smothered her crying child, to prevent the marauding natives finding the rest of the townsfolk. There, one life, and one about as innocent as they come, was measured against the lives of the many. It's a heartbreaking thing to do, but given the circumstances, the right thing to do.

Craftworld Eldar are a really horrific people!

[YorkNecromancer]

Absolutely.

I think the whole idea that Eldar are 'good' basically derives from people who can't tell the difference between 40K and standard Fantasy tropes about Elves, where Elves are always portrayed as unequivocally good. That and the fact that Eldar basically look like good guys, despite their obviously monstrous acts.

You judge someone by their actions, not by their appearance or words, and Eldar actions are unequivocally selfish and self-serving. Yes, there's the whole moral grey area where 'necessity defines that which is right'... But that's just equivocation. Survival of their species or not, the Eldar are just bad news.

[Mr Mystery]

Eldar are your classic, pre-Tolkein Elves - completely self-serving bellends, with absolutely no regard for your well being. Their boon comes at a price, and they never end up short changed.

For reference, watch the really rather wonderful 'Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell'...see what happens when you start to bargain with the Fey.

Or you can read it, if that's your thing!

Remember folks, Ghaz is Eldrad's baby. He did all that to preserve a single Craftworld, on a hunch it might run into danger. The dickhead.

[Stephen James Hand]

Craftworld Eldar aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of humans to save a few of their own species. Humans are basically to Eldar as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own, to do otherwise would be like someone letting humans die because saving them would mean killing pigs, something most would consider 'immoral'. We have exactly the same attitude as the Eldar to 'lesser species'.

[Mr Mystery]

They have the option of losing a handful of lives to let billions of others live.

Yep. That's pretty evil. And at the risk of Godwin's law this early, there's been various regimes in human history that have done that.

[Charon]

Craftworld Eldar aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of humans to save a few of their own species. Humans are basically to Eldar as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own, to do otherwise would be like someone letting humans die because saving them would mean killing pigs, something most would consider 'immoral'. We have exactly the same attitude as the Eldar to 'lesser species'.

Agree. We would kill hundreds of animals if it would safe a single human the other way round is rare.
People tend to make the mistake and compare Eldar and humans as "equal lives". They are not. They have exactly the same stance on us as we on animals. Barely sentient, not capable of reason.

[Lexington]

And seriously, f**k the Craftworld Eldar. They are easily the most evil pr!cks in the 40K setting; at least the 'Dark' variety have the decency to be honest about it. An Eldar would trick you into killing your own children and make you think you'd done it for your own good... All to save his family's ancestral rose garden, because a Eldar flower is worth more than you, your family, or your world combined.
This sort of thing came around with 3rd Edition, and I've never really liked it; as a characterization of a race, it's just silly, and as much of a restrictive stereotype as "good" elves. It also doesn't makea lot of sense with their history of loss. Their galactic empire and the vast majority of their population was wiped out because of arrogance and bloodlust. The whole point of the Craftworld Eldar is that they've been humbled as a race, forced into a nomadic lifestyle and still haunted by the literal daemon that their ancestors called up. I always much preferred the older background, where Eldar saw humans as a reflection of their own race before the Fall, and tried (with only limited success) to stop the past from repeating itself.

[YorkNecromancer]

White Supremacists aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of blacks to save a few of their own species. Blacks are basically to White Supremacists as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own.

That's what it sounds like to me whenever anyone says the Eldar are doing the right thing by allowing 'lesser' races to die. Just because the Eldar view the humans as animals doesn't make it so.

The Eldar may think of humans as no better than animals. They are wrong. Humans are sentient, sapient beings, capable of free will and self-determination. Which is true of the Eldar. So both species are wrong, which is kind of the point of 40K: that it's a tragic, horrible universe, where the conflict is pointless, stupid, and utterly futile. Humans, Eldar... Both species believe in insane racial prejudices that prevent them mutually benefitting from each other's strengths. It's pathetic, and that's the point. The Eldar aren't just a graceful, beautiful race of wondrous beings any more than humanity is a race of belligerent thugs, and their inability to see each other as anything more than animals is a tragedy.

I stand by my comment: the Eldar are evil. Just because they can justify their atrocities to themselves doesn't mean they're not committing atrocities.


as a characterization of a race, it's just silly, and as much of a restrictive stereotype as "good" elves

Is a citizen her nation? Is a man his country?

Individual Eldar are noble, decent, wise and compassionate... As well as selfish, cruel and capricious. People are capable of being complex; species too.

Just because the Imperium is a horrible, totalitarian dystopia, it doesn't follow that all its citizens are monsters. As it is with the Imperium, so it is with the Eldar. As a species, they're horrific. As individuals, they can be wonderful.

Why can't we have a nuanced view? The 40K universe might be the most apocalyptic, awful hellhole imaginable, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of goodness in individuals.

[Charon]

White Supremacists aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of blacks to save a few of their own species. Blacks are basically to White Supremacists as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own.
That's what it sounds like to me whenever anyone says the Eldar are doing the right thing by allowing 'lesser' races to die. Just because the Eldar view the humans as animals doesn't make it so.

Both are human in your example.
Eldar are not human.
Steak-lovers are not evil just because they think nothing of killing millions of cows to get their precious meat.
Eldar are DIFFERENT to humans. They do not see us like we do. Thats why moralities do not work in 40k. Even the imperium is not the stereotypical fascist nightmare you try to paint it.

[Stephen James Hand]

YorkNecromancer - The way you changed my statement rendered it incorrect, black and white people are the same species, which is my entire point. The whole 'sentience' thing is just a rationalisation used to justify us having a different moral standard for our own species as we do for every other one we have encountered, it's not like it or its absence can even be conclusively proved. The Eldar probably have a different rationalisation to justify why they can treat every other species in the galaxy like crap but still have moral standards amongst themselves too.

They don't only justify their atrocities, they justify them in the exact same way we justify 'atrocities' against other species, what from one perspective is an atrocity, from another is pest control or responsible environmental management.

Comparing cross species interactions to race politics is facile, of course everyone is going to put the welfare of their own species above all others, it's not 'evil' to want to survive as a species like it is to want to kill, mistreat or degrade fellow members of your own species because they look a little different to you.

Eldar certainly aren't 'good' as a race, but I don't think they can be considered 'evil' either. It's funny how Orks seem to get a free pass for having no concept of morality at all, but not Eldar for having a different morality where killing humans is acceptable.

[YorkNecromancer]

Orks are not guilty by reason of insanity. They make no claims to be moral beings. One needs to have an understanding of morality in the first place; an ork can no more understand complex morality than a man without legs can walk. They're a species of living weapons, and that has to be acknowledged. So, not evil. Dangerous, and a deadly threat, but not evil. Put 'em on a planet and let 'em kill each other to death in happiness.

The Eldar know the difference and don't care. That's an act of evil.

Because why are the Eldar superior to humanity? Psychic might, better technology, etc. A bunch of stuff which basically translates to 'better at fighting'. 'We've been here longer, we're better at fighting, our lives therefore have more value than yours'. That's the Eldar logical process. That's the full extent of their justification.

That is a crappy justification. The Eldar understand the value of life, because they understand their own. Their failure to acknowledge the value of human life is a convenient rationalisation for their crimes. It's Othering, plain and simple. "Our species are so different." Really? You're longer lived, you've got psychic powers, and a weird-*** culture... But basically you're a lot like humanity.

The race-hate parallel stands. Same species, different species, it doesn't matter. Sentience is sentience. You don't like the race-hate parallel? Okay, let's look at another fictional parallel. Take the X-Men: protecting a people who hate and fear them. They're a different species too. But Magneto is the villain for a reason: whenever he calls for a human genocide, that's monstrous. That's Wrong. It shouldn't even need to be said. When the humans led by John Sublime exterminate Genosha and kill all the mutants, it's shown as an abhorrent crime. It doesn't matter which side kills the other, that side is unequivocally evil.

As it is with Magneto/John Sublime, so it is with the Eldar.

They don't get to be the good guys just because they're wearing clothes in bright primary colours.


it's not 'evil' to want to survive as a species like it is to want to kill, mistreat or degrade fellow members of your own species because they look a little different to you.

Yes it is.

The Eldar could survive through co-operation as effectively as they could through genocide. The writers choose that latter because it's 40K and so everything must always be GRIMDARK... But that doesn't make it okay. The Federation doesn't get to exterminate the Klingons and get to brag about how heroic they are.

Not to mention, given that the Eldar literally created a Chaos God? It could be said that they have less right to brag about how 'enlighted' and heroic they are.

'Oh, how did you become enlightened? You created the Chaos God of Drugs and Murder-Sex? Well, you seem like totally alright guys to me. What's that you say? Occasionally you sacrifice your best and brightest as fuel for your God of Murder? And sometimes you murder one twin so the other's a more effective Mech pilot? And you need to always wear a magic stone because when you die, you automatically go to Hell? All of you? Because of the aforementioned God of Drugs and Murder-Sex? Seems legit.'

[Denzark]

Yorkie you can't say 'an ork would never get convicted for murder' and then call Eldar evil. They both are sociologically predisposed to regard other races as useless.

Whatever RL psychiatric condition (psychopath or sociopath) you think either of them are, it would be a legal defence in law because they are batfish mad by society's standards.

Also, the Eldar killing whole systems of humans (whether by omission or commission of act) would be seen as acceptable by the Imperium's xenocidal hierarchy - 'we'd do it to them so its who strikes first...'

[Charon]

The Eldar could survive through co-operation as effectively as they could through genocide.

With whom?
With the "don't suffer the xenos to live" imperium?
The Orcs? Crons?


Because why are the Eldar superior to humanity? Psychic might, better technology, etc. A bunch of stuff which basically translates to 'better at fighting'. 'We've been here longer, we're better at fighting, our lives therefore have more value than yours'. That's the Eldar logical process. That's the full extent of their justification.

Nope. Thats the full extent of what YOU know.

Klaatu (The day the earth stood still)? Not the evil guy and he still wanted to eredicate the human race.


Take the X-Men: protecting a people who hate and fear them. They're a different species too

They are not. Which is quite often mentioned in the movies. They are (depends on how you look at it) a subspecies or a different brach. But still the same species. Besides they live together on the same planet and are raised in human society with human moralities (hello superman - which would be an actual different species) and most often human partents an siblings.

Remember the Interex? That human empire which got destroyed by humans from terra somewhen during the heresy? Which rather banished and integrated aliens than to eradicate them?
They never had a problem with the eldar and the eldar even teached them about the nature of "Kaos" and to be wary of its agents.
Or when Eldrad talked to Fulgrim to warn him about what will happen? They do not kill if there are other ways (which is also self-preserving as killing bears the danger of getting killed) and Path of the Seer features as well they they actually would feel guilty about killing if it was not for their war masks.

It is the imperium which has proven over and over the be unthrustworthy, brutal and outright stupid.

[Mr Mystery]

Eldar consider the Necron race so evil, that they do their best to sabotage Tomb Worlds to at best destroy it, at worst delay its awakening.

Yet Necron have an identical world view - all other races are inferior, and need to be wiped out....

Hmm......

[Fueldrop]

I think my point was lost somewhere along the way...

Also, to the best of my knowledge Craftworld Eldar don't actively go out of their way to kill other races, they are merely completely uncaring about collateral damage to their actions. They may unleash a WAAAGH! on your planet, but it's not just for kicks. Also, when they have no stake in the result they have been known to warn the Imperium that they're about to do something stupid, warnings which are always ignored (see the explorer vessel sent into Hrud space).
Granted, their actions result in massive death and destruction, but it's nothing personal.

Anyway. The point is that the races most strongly opposed to the protagonist imperium (and there's no doubt they're the intended protagonists) are significantly weaker than the imperial factions, which hurts the game.

[Mr Mystery]

I think my point was lost somewhere along the way...

Also, to the best of my knowledge Craftworld Eldar don't actively go out of their way to kill other races, they are merely completely uncaring about collateral damage to their actions. They may unleash a WAAAGH! on your planet, but it's not just for kicks. Also, when they have no stake in the result they have been known to warn the Imperium that they're about to do something stupid, warnings which are always ignored (see the explorer vessel sent into Hrud space).
Granted, their actions result in massive death and destruction, but it's nothing personal.

Anyway. The point is that the races most strongly opposed to the protagonist imperium (and there's no doubt they're the intended protagonists) are significantly weaker than the imperial factions, which hurts the game.

Oh they'd do it if they still had the capability. Trust me on that one.

As for warning the Imperium? They have a stake in that - you can bet your sweet bippy the less they discuss it, the bigger that stake is!

[Gamgee]

I think my point was lost somewhere along the way...

Also, to the best of my knowledge Craftworld Eldar don't actively go out of their way to kill other races, they are merely completely uncaring about collateral damage to their actions. They may unleash a WAAAGH! on your planet, but it's not just for kicks. Also, when they have no stake in the result they have been known to warn the Imperium that they're about to do something stupid, warnings which are always ignored (see the explorer vessel sent into Hrud space).
Granted, their actions result in massive death and destruction, but it's nothing personal.

Anyway. The point is that the races most strongly opposed to the protagonist imperium (and there's no doubt they're the intended protagonists) are significantly weaker than the imperial factions, which hurts the game.

Nothing personnel kid?

The warnings are always ignored because we can't trust the Eldar. One day they are bringing down a wagh, the next annihilating a human planet, and manipulating politics. Then the next day they want to have it both ways and act like a guardian. Then when the Imperium gets mixed signals it's all "Oh those inferior races and their bad communication". Which one is it? Do they want to help form a stable galactic society/warn people? Or are the Eldar supremacists? Their own edgy actions are undoing themselves at every turn for such a vaunted species I think they're the more insufferably stupid one in existence. Easily in possession of technology and diplomatic skill to form alliances if they so choose and they throw it away the next day to chase the short term save 5 eldar and doom a sector of the galaxy idiocy which undoes all their hard work no matter what. If they save 5 Eldar woopdie do they save 5 eldar and the forces of chaos/enemies of everyone spread and destabilize things on a huge galactic scale. It also undoes any sort of diplomatic work or warnings they hope to give and resets that to zero every time. All for 5 ****ing eldar. You know what would help? If the Imperium of Man could trust you. Maybe if you spent less time sending alien invasions at them. Sucked it up and let some of your own people die to show that your willing to sacrifice yourselves to save some Imperium citizens it would open some eyes. They might actually as heretical as it is see that your race isn't a self indulgent species of unpredictable *******s. But you won't because instead of using your intellect to find new solutions to try and form a new even better Eldar empire in the long term you cling to the old ideals of the past eldar empire and seek to rebuild it. Your more dogmatic than the Imperium but you'll never admit it openly.

At every possible turn the Eldar continue to fall for a reason and I see no change in their fortunes coming because deep down they don't want to. Good riddance maybe they'll almost be completely gone in 20k years and we'll truly have only a wandering collection of them left not even a craft world among them. Without them harassing us we could focus on other threats. That's another thing. If the Imperium knew it could trust you at least far enough to listen to your warnings AND leave you alone it would let you focus on improving or combating other things. Same with the Imperium. This is good for both factions since it means the Imperium will be spending resources it would normally send at you on other targets.

The Imperium doesn't pretend to be smart. They are dumb and honest about it. Or so dumb they don't have the self awareness to realize it. Ugh the Eldar are so dumb. Even dumber than the orks. Dumbest race in the galaxy. Hundred years in diapers too i guess.

I guess the fall of the Eldar only the idiots survived. -_- I find the Dark Eldar less edgy than the regular Eldar. I know the DE is a big dick ******* who wants to rape me in all ways possible and feast on my soul, but he's an honest ******* I know not to trust. They also keep their raids relatively small in the grand scheme of all the awful things in the universe. Annoying but usually non-critical. The Eldar come across as the most mary sue race in 40k right now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA-4B2d4L18

[Fueldrop]

I should add at this point that the Imperium's policy of casually exterminating every sentient species they encounter is also "nothing personal".

[Gamgee]

I should add at this point that the Imperium's policy of casually exterminating every sentient species they encounter is also "nothing personal".
But they are honest about it and they stick to that policy. Even when they are forced to be diplomatic they are clearly only doing this so that later on they can survive to wipe you out. Yeah its an ******* thing to do but honest. I can prepare for that easily enough.

[Charon]

I don't even know where that bull**** idea "the eldar would have wiped out all other species" comes from. They did not do it at the height of their power and there is no fluff indication that they ever planned to.

[Denzark]

I'm not sure if Eldar are immoral or ammoral. But actually I also am not sure - when arguing who is evil - whose standards of evil are we using? Modern day RL? Or the presumed perspective of the 41st millenium?

[daboarder]

I'm not sure if Eldar are immoral or ammoral. But actually I also am not sure - when arguing who is evil - whose standards of evil are we using? Modern day RL? Or the presumed perspective of the 41st millenium?

if your not using the perspective of 40k then the answer quickly becomes a pointless EVERYONE really.

just sayin

[Denzark]

That is true, I guess I brought it up to hint at it being a pointless exercise using contemporary standards, and in 40K standards, they are pretty good.

I suppose 40K-wise only the Tau and the Tyranids are not evil - and that depending on the levels of sentience of Hive Mind and whether or not you think Genestealer Covens and Zoats remain canon.

[Haighus]

I don't even know where that bull**** idea "the eldar would have wiped out all other species" comes from. They did not do it at the height of their power and there is no fluff indication that they ever planned to.

Biel-tan? It maybe wasn't their goal in the past, but it is at least part of it now.

[daboarder]

That is true, I guess I brought it up to hint at it being a pointless exercise using contemporary standards, and in 40K standards, they are pretty good.

I suppose 40K-wise only the Tau and the Tyranids are not evil - and that depending on the levels of sentience of Hive Mind and whether or not you think Genestealer Covens and Zoats remain canon.

yeah I figured that was what you were trying for and was just hammering the point home with typical sledgehammer subtlety.

I wouldnt even rate tau or nids as "good guys"

because nids aren't jsut animals the Hive mind fully comprehends terror war and the consequences of what it does, and the tau are a dangerously niave expansionist totalitarian race with an inbuilt caste system

edit: just to elaborate on the Tyranid point, when the background refers to the swarm as a "galactic predator" I always found it to be more a suggestion that the Hive mind is just so far beyond comprehension rather than being driven by hunger so to speak.

Much like the common literature phrase where such and such are referred to as "but ants beneath the feat" of whatever the big bad is. as in "do you notice the ants you step on?" type thing

[Charon]

Biel-tan? It maybe wasn't their goal in the past, but it is at least part of it now.

They do not try to wipe out every other species. They protect the exodites and try to keep the maiden worlds "clean". They do not attack a random planet because "all humans must die!". It may seem so to the imperium but they are running a kind of "border patrol" around their old empire.
Also the fluff suggests that they are mostly fighting orks as this is the most numberous species that occupied their old lands.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm not sure if Eldar are immoral or ammoral. But actually I also am not sure - when arguing who is evil - whose standards of evil are we using? Modern day RL? Or the presumed perspective of the 41st millenium?

Modern day of course - it's really difficult otherwise!

The Imperium is a horrendous organisation. Lives are just a resource to be spent.

But the Craftworld Eldar - such arrogance. Despite having had their time, and blown it, big time, they still consider themselves the supreme race of the Galaxy. Currently they're having to keep a relatively low profile, because if one of the low species has enough of them, it's pretty much curtains. So they sit behind the scenes and set everyone else up for a fall. They'd gladly see an Imperial sector burn if it meant preventing Farseer Bob stubbing his toe three weeks next Thursday (dramatic license in that one!).

Their flame is dying, but they continue to struggle on. That could be seen as noble. Shame about their methodology.

[Denzark]

yeah I figured that was what you were trying for and was just hammering the point home with typical sledgehammer subtlety.

:D

I wouldnt even rate tau or nids as "good guys"

because nids aren't jsut animals the Hive mind fully comprehends terror war and the consequences of what it does, and the tau are a dangerously niave expansionist totalitarian race with an inbuilt caste system

It might be semantics but is naivety less evil than criminal recklessness? In 40k terms the prior is 'ah let me stroke the fluffy genestealer' and the latter is 'I want to be big in planetary government, I am going to let this daemon into my mind for half an hour'.

edit: just to elaborate on the Tyranid point, when the background refers to the swarm as a "galactic predator" I always found it to be more a suggestion that the Hive mind is just so far beyond comprehension rather than being driven by hunger so to speak.

I am not up to spec on tyranid fluff, I thought it was just consume, move on (whilst providing a convenient unending swarm enemy for the 'good guys' to fight.

Much like the common literature phrase where such and such are referred to as "but ants beneath the feat" of whatever the big bad is. as in "do you notice the ants you step on?" type thing

Mebbe.

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Modern day of course - it's really difficult otherwise!

That being the case I stand by my comment on Ork and Eldar psychology...

The Imperium is a horrendous organisation. Lives are just a resource to be spent.

True.

But the Craftworld Eldar - such arrogance. Despite having had their time, and blown it, big time, they still consider themselves the supreme race of the Galaxy. Currently they're having to keep a relatively low profile, because if one of the low species has enough of them, it's pretty much curtains. So they sit behind the scenes and set everyone else up for a fall. They'd gladly see an Imperial sector burn if it meant preventing Farseer Bob stubbing his toe three weeks next Thursday (dramatic license in that one!).

Is it arrogance? I find the whole Path of the Eldar, deny yourself to the nth degree quite - dunno, monastic? Sacrificing? Yeah they nearly lost it all, but they didn't and now they constrain themselves under the harshest of societies. I think 'necessity' is more likely than arrogance - but whether that necessity is moral or not, who is to judge?

Their flame is dying, but they continue to struggle on. That could be seen as noble. Shame about their methodology.

I don't think the Eldar could be debated into accepting they are in the wrong. They are genuinely hardwired to do what they do. It is like North Korea - their actions are in their blood - but can they be held accountable for that?

[Fueldrop]

Let's just be honest: Everyone in the 40k universe is a horrible person. Some people (DE) are simply more open about it than others.

[Thornblood]

Tbh, I think I would like a more warmachine style approach. More or less each faction in warmachine/hordes has characters that are the 'good guys' of their faction and the 'bad guys if their faction.

All the marine special characters are a bit too clean cut (apart from admodai). I would like a loyalist commander who despises humanity and it ruthlessly effecient. It would fit with the Iron Hands. Marines that enjoy killing a bit too much.

the guard commander that is happy to win the war with a meat grinder of throwing hundreds of guard lives away for a win. A guard commander who killed his superiors to get promoted by filling dead mans boots.

The Eldar with a massive grudge on the mon-Keigh and wants to exterminate them all, maybe because he thinks they are all potential for chaos to corrupt them. Full on genocide would he his end goal.

The Stalin/chairman Mao equivalent in the communist tau empire. Maybe a cadre fireblade who hates other castes.

All the chaos dudes who could potentially see chaos as the good guy- chaos will accept everyone; whatever race, caste, social status, etc. nurgle will save you from diseases. Tzeentch will take you for your intelligence, not your privilege/elitist breeding. Slaanesh... Well... Will sex everyone and everything.

The Dark Eldar who just wants to keep his race alive and away from the clutches of chaos.

A mathematician Necron who just wants to see what combat match ups work rather than win or kill everything. The fascination with escalating things to see what happens, and then boiling things down again to fill in his charts... necrons that see humanity as invaders on their tomb world and despoiling what they love rather than the POV of 'foul xenos'

An Ork that understands war is what orks do by nature but other races can't tolerate their existance. A sad Ork.

[Mr Mystery]

Mebbe.

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I don't think the Eldar could be debated into accepting they are in the wrong. They are genuinely hardwired to do what they do. It is like North Korea - their actions are in their blood - but can they be held accountable for that?

They attempt to 'persecute'* the Necrons for doing the very same thing.

*can't think of a better word at the mo. Braindrain.

[Michael Bradbury]

Trying to split 40K into 'heroes' and 'villains' misses the whole point of the background. The 'fluff' establishes that each race/faction has a reason to fight each other, in order to justify one set of models playing against another on the tabletop. You can see this most clearly in the examples of loyalist space marine chapters fighting each other due to misunderstandings or conflicting interests.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Stalin/chairman Mao equivalent in the communist tau empire. Maybe a cadre fireblade who hates other castes.

You clearly understand nothing about Tau fluff


All the chaos dudes who could potentially see chaos as the good guy- chaos will accept everyone; whatever race, caste, social status, etc. nurgle will save you from diseases. Tzeentch will take you for your intelligence, not your privilege/elitist breeding. Slaanesh... Well... Will sex everyone and everything.

That's how a lot of them see it anyway. Liberation from the lies of the Corpse Emperor.


the guard commander that is happy to win the war with a meat grinder of throwing hundreds of guard lives away for a win. A guard commander who killed his superiors to get promoted by filling dead mans boots.

You just described Commander Chenkov.


The Dark Eldar who just wants to keep his race alive and away from the clutches of chaos.

Asdrubael Vect? Only with more backstabbing...


A mathematician Necron who just wants to see what combat match ups work rather than win or kill everything. The fascination with escalating things to see what happens, and then boiling things down again to fill in his charts... necrons that see humanity as invaders on their tomb world and despoiling what they love rather than the POV of 'foul xenos'

I'm pretty sure Necrons have at least two eccentric general characters. Trazyn, for one, who simply attacks for amusement and to gain interesting trinkets, and that other one who's apparently short-sighted and very friendly to other races.


Marines that enjoy killing a bit too much.

Gabriel Seth?


Tbh, I think I would like a more warmachine style approach. More or less each faction in warmachine/hordes has characters that are the 'good guys' of their faction and the 'bad guys if their faction.

Then we can have no major events with everything being border scuffles, except Cryx who keep losing Warcasters, but don't because everyone just gets resurrected making any of them dying a pretty irrelevant story point. Fluff would devolve into Every Race Versus Nids if you did this to 40K. Menoth, Khador and Cygnar suddenly fighting together is a bit like Abaddon shaking hands with Stracken so they can go fight the Necrons together.

[Lurker]

That is true, I guess I brought it up to hint at it being a pointless exercise using contemporary standards, and in 40K standards, they are pretty good.

I suppose 40K-wise only the Tau and the Tyranids are not evil - and that depending on the levels of sentience of Hive Mind and whether or not you think Genestealer Covens and Zoats remain canon.

No it's a good point really. Having a moral framework to work with in an exercise like this is kinda necessary. I myself would equate it more to the Court Intrigues of Pre-Imperial China or the politics of late Imperial Rome. to an outside viewer everything that occurs appears to be one shade of evil or another. But when the viewer is part of it- then it's not "evil" it's just how you play the game. It's an intrigue on a galactic level, (which is just gonna exacerbate things :eek:)

For my money, I'd say the closest race that comes to not being evil (from a modern viewpoint) is the Orcs. They're like children (big hairy green angry children, but nonetheless...), they just don't know any better. However, from the framework of court drama, they're just as bad as anyone else because they play the game too, just in their own brutally 'act first' kind of way.

but as to the OP's original question? I got nothing, I can't even balance my checkbook and it's nowhere near as complicated as 40K. :D

[Fueldrop]

I'd kinda hazard a suggestion that the Eldar Exordites are fairly non-evil, being a bunch of Luddites who just want to be left alone and not have their souls eaten. They'll defend themselves, sure, but they're not out actively making life worse for the rest of the galaxy.
Ditto the vast majority of humanity, most of whom are just trying to get through the day, and probably the majority of the tau, who undoubtedly believe that the greater good is such a great philosophy that each sphere of expansion is simply the Ethereals allowing a new set of races to join the empire voluntarily.

The fact of the matter is that our entire lens of the universe is centered around a tabletop wargame, and as a result it's focused on conflict.

[Gamgee]

Tau are not even slightly communist. Tau are Anti-Communist. What Tau are is utilitarians. The Imperium of Man has more in common with Imperial Japan and Stalinism on a government level than the Tau do. The Tau rule over a federation of races who have joined. The Tau themselves are sort of like a republic. Then finally at the very top we have the philosopher-warrior king that solves disputed between castes and has a look at the larger picture (Ethereals). The Tau themselves are a strict caste system that would make Lenin pissed off that not everyone is equal. We have clear ranks.

Imperium is also as "weeaboo" as us. The fanbase draws their waifu SOB, they have a fascination with mecha, love of suicide kamikaze attacks, worship of a God Emperor (like Japan did in its past) and the Imperium is extremely Xenophobic the Tau aren't (Japan had to have its borders opened by gunboat diplomacy). The Tau only have an asian visual theme really.

Now how the **** does any of that sound like communism? It doesn't because it isn't. The closest thing the Tau have to a bad guy is Farsight because he follows his own path and made his own Enclaves, but even after being officially declared heretical by Tau standards there are a ton of them who see him as a hero.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Plus y'know, the Imperium's utter disgust for those who don't die in the Emperor's name and try to flee combat feels very similar to Imperial Japanese doctrine. However, it's not exclusive to them.

The Tau aren't Communist because not everyone is equal as you say, they have a clear ruling Caste. I think it's the American habit of calling anything that isn't a Capitalist Democracy Communism, ignoring differences in ideologies like, say, Socialism or Utilitarianism. Tau are not all treated equally, higher rank gains more responsibility, and the highest ranks of the Fire Caste get to actually retire. Your Shas'O can spend the last of their days sipping Tauquila on a beach somewhere after their hard work for the Greater Good. Many don't, as I understand it, but the option is there. That sort of reward system isn't Communist at all, not true Communist, at least.

The Tau have almost a meritocratic view. You'll never take leadership from the Ethereals, but you'll have their ear if you prove your worth. You'll gain rank and privileges up to and including piloting house-sized gundams the Empire only has in small, experimental quantities...at least in the fluff. Really it's only the Gundam-ish mecha look and the samurai-inspired Fire Warrior armour that makes them anywhere near Japanese-styled.