Age of Sigmar New Products July 18 2015

[Bigred]

We have a cover - White Dwarf 77

via #amy (https://twitter.com/hashtag/amy?src=hash&vertical=default&f=images) (twitter) 7-9-2015


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- Lord Calstellant w/pet on foot
- "The Forces of Chaos", Your guide to the servents of the Ruinous Powers.
- Warhammer Age of Sigmar, and Warhammer 40,000 are mentioned on the cover.

[Mr Mystery]

Really looks like Lizardmen are being dumped. Yep. 100%.

[Bigred]

Check out that map of the shimmerfall campaign. It looks like Nurgle let the Glottkin out of their clay pot prison.

[Kirsten]

Really looks like Lizardmen are being dumped. Yep. 100%.

interesting that they look the same too. on the one hand, Seraphon release might be a long way away. on the other hand, the Dark Eldar in the 5th edition rulebook had their new look in the art long before they were released (two and a half years nearly). I remember people being excited about the raider look for ages.

[Erik Setzer]

Check out that map of the shimmerfall campaign. It looks like Nurgle let the Glottkin out of their clay pot prison.

Not only that, but it makes it seem like all these "realms" really are pockets of space, like little warp bubbles or something.

So we might be looking at Outlandhammer after all.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The Mortal Realms are what the "bubbles of reality" of Olde Rumourre actually are, yes. It seems to be less a case of "bubbles colliding" than that they're linked by Realmgates and portals, though.

As to Seraphon not changing - it's possible that new models will take them in a new direction, whenever that happens; for the moment they seem to be continuing as-is as the good ol' Lizardmen model range. Same will probably go for Undead, Skaven, etc. etc. - the ranges will be expanded and evolved in the future, for the moment, use whatever you got. Which is the way it should be.

[Bigred]

via scanner (http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20765-Warhammer-Fantasy-9th-Rumors-Explosion&p=229830&viewfull=1#post229830) 7-14-2015

New Products and the Great Horned Rat Ascends:
1507015071

[Erik Setzer]

Hmm, nice job "Scanner" did of grabbing something and cropping it so the "watermark" won't show.

https://twitter.com/Lady_Atia/status/620956971269783552

Just making sure the original poster gets credit.

[William Lang]

via scanner (http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20765-Warhammer-Fantasy-9th-Rumors-Explosion&p=229830&viewfull=1#post229830) 7-14-2015

New Products and the Great Horned Rat Ascends:
1507015071Blight and Pestilence incarnate? Where have I heard that before? Let me see...

[Bigred]

For the record, it looks like the original non-watermarked images are here:

http://eltallerdeyila.blogspot.com.es/2015/07/enanos-montados-en-bestias-de-lava-y-la.html

Clearly BEFORE Lady Atia watermarked several and put them on her Twitter feed.

[Erik Setzer]

Okay. So it stretches even further back.

I think it's amusing she watermarked it and then the credited source took it off her feed and cropped it.

At this point, I think crediting scans of images should just go to crediting Games Workshop, since they created the book that's being photographed. Then we don't have these little rumormonger wars, amusing as they are.

- - - Updated - - -


Blight and Pestilence incarnate? Where have I heard that before? Let me see...

They might be focusing Nurgle back onto despair and nightmares again. The Horned Rat has always been sort of a "Chaos" god, and ended up being added into Chaos in the Old World, then you have the events in End Times... He's sort of a mix of Nurgle and Tzeentch with the blight, pestilence, and shifty tricks. But he's always been that way, as long as Skaven have existed, which is nearly as long as Warhammer's been around.

[Bigred]

Welcome to the exciting world of trying to track down the original sources for proper crediting.

Some day's its easy, some days its down the rabbithole...

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Yeah and if you don't get the source right people nerd-rage, from what i've witnessed. I think I agree with Erik, the credit should just go to GW.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I want Gryph-Hounds now!

[Bigred]

via Zeetro (https://twitter.com/Zeetroe) (Twitter) 7-15-2015

Someone say Gryph-hounds?
15073
Aww - look how cute!!!



PS, just wait. I'll bet 1000 internets you will see watermarked versions of this pic up within 24 hours on other sites...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm worried, so far I have only seen that pose. I hope there is more than one per pack.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, I think so far it's just the one as a pet for the character. Maybe more will come, with different poses?

[Mr Mystery]

Sit, Beaky! Good Beaky! Who's a good Beaky? You're a good Beaky!

[Tristan Verolme]

Well, I know some people really despice AoS.., but I doubt anyone can argue with the artwork, it's mind blowing!

[Bigred]

via Michael Healy (https://twitter.com/michaelh_012) (twitter) 7-16-2015

New Age of Sigmar Terrain Kits

1510815109
Numinous Occulum

Dragonfate-Dais

[Mr Mystery]

Numinous Occulum looks really cool!

Dragongate - it's nice like, but not as nice!

[Mr Mystery]

Photo lifted from The Rage of Sigmar Facebook page - original provenance currently unknown.

15111

[Cutter]

via Michael Healy (https://twitter.com/michaelh_012) (twitter) 7-16-2015

New Age of Sigmar Terrain Kits

1510815109
Numinous Occulum

Dragonfate-Dais

Reminds me of a Luminous Occunum.

[Erik Setzer]

Something about the terrain just feels "off" to me. It all looks really nice, but so far it's all ruined gates and stuff, and it's getting more and more over-the-top. That dragon gate looks great (other than being ruined), but it doesn't seem to be a terribly functional piece of architecture.

I think it's just that the setting seems to be over-the-top warriors fighting in overly designed ruins, with everywhere looking wrecked and destroyed, and the fluff suggesting that realistically there can't be much life left, and everyday life must just really suck for anyone left alive. No room for politics, no wondering what living in the world(s) is like, nothing... just endless war on already ruined worlds. It somehow feels more depressing than 40K, quite a bit so. Even when D&D tried "gritty and dark" (which people rebelled against and it dropped that concept), it still had "points of light in the darkness," something I can't see existing in the "Age of Sigmar."

I think part of the problem is also that we've been told Sigmar retreated for a few hundred years while Chaos basically won... but we all know what happens when Chaos wins, they destroy the world. We just saw that. So how is there even anyone left for him to save? Maybe the book(s) will answer that...

[daboarder]

the difference is that 40k hsa had years to build up the depth BEHIND the endless fighting, so that when a story happens with the nids invading a planet there is an understanding of how this is impacting the lives of people right the way through from the jannitor to the governor. AoS is more akin to "More smash hulk AWESOME" with no idea of the underlying social structure of details of the universe, its all surface and no substance to its narrative from what i've seen so far.

I could be wrong and there could be heaps of information about how the world works so to speak, but I havent heard anyone mention it yet.

[Erik Setzer]

Actually, with 40K, I was thinking about how there's worlds, or areas of worlds, that practically never see fighting. Lots of war happens, sure, but there's a lot of people in that galaxy that never witness it, and probably a lot of them that don't know it's happening. You have communities that exist for reasons other than just to create more soldiers to send off to war (which, if it's unending, would eventually destroy a population through attrition*). You can imagine all kinds of people living in the 40K galaxy without dealing with war, many even having peaceful lives.

In AoS, there's no way anyone could have a peaceful life. And I'm not sure they can even still be alive right now... but then, I'm also not sure what Archaon's doing back, or why some Dwarf gods are, but other gods (of various sorts) aren't. Those things can be answered in the fluff. But I'll still be left with the nagging feeling that this is a horribly depressing setting that would make Hieronymus Bosch consider suicide. I guess that kind of thing doesn't matter to a "war game," but the fluff's always been a big thing for me in any game I play.


*Fun fact: There's a "law from God" in the Bible, I want to say in Leviticus, where the people are commanded to not send a man off to war, even if he's a soldier, for a full year after he's married, so that he can have time with his wife, pretty much in order to ensure there's proper time to procreate. Even back then they recognized that too much war would destroy a civilization, especially if you didn't take time to create new babies. (Even then, it's still rather likely.)

[Cutter]

AoS is more akin to "More smash hulk AWESOME" with no idea of the underlying social structure of details of the universe, its all surface and no substance to its narrative from what i've seen so far.

And I think this is the biggest betrayal of the fanbase. I'm not keen on the rules, but to be honest I could probably turn my brain off, as many others on the boards already have, and 'enjoy' ZPG on it's own merit. But my Stirland army has no place in the New World Order, and the StormDeathBloodClaw Eternals are about as charismatic as a cyberman. When I gaze into the cold dead eyes of a Zigmarine model, I see the serried ranks of GeeDub accountants staring back.

"You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"

[Path Walker]

The books and novels all expand the lore.

The God's aren't bored of these worlds yet and even after a millenia, Mortals are managing to hold out, and while the Celestial Realm of Azyr still stands locked away, they can not unmake these Realms as they did The World That Was. That's why Sigmar locked himself away and barred his Gates. He knew if he stayed to fight, Chaos would win, so he had to bide his time and assemble an army.

The first novel (which is a typical starter set tie in to a large extent but a decent read, better than the other ones we've had for starter sets, the quick read is much better though) shows life as a mortal in the Realm of Fire, hunted by Blood Reavers, how the Blood Reavers take captives and turn them to Khorne by threatening death if they don't eat the flesh of the fallen.

The Realm of Fire is the most overrun by Chaos though (apart from the Realm of Chaos itself obviously), but there are mortal human settlements there still, mostly nomadic to avoid being ran down by the Blood Reavers and the armies of Khorne that march there, but they still survive, barely clinging on as humans do.

It shows the conflict within the Stormcast Eternals as well, they were once Mortals in the Realms before they were taken by Sigmar to join his army against their will. They have snatches of memory of their former lives, they have doubts and feelings as any other mortal. They're not soulless automata, or even emotionally stunted weapons to the extent of Space Marines, they're people who are fighting not to regain what was lost, but to rebuild. They have a chance of driving out Chaos but they're still failable, they have the power near that of a god but contained in a fragile mortal soul.

Also Ionus Cryptborn owes Sigmar a debt, but was from the realm of Shyish, thats all we know so far, but he's different from the rest of them. I think he might be Vlad reincarnated

[Mr Mystery]

More likely 'whoops was that your back' Mannfred, given he's the one that finally doomed the Old World in a fit of pique.

But yeah - the background is unknown for now, and is set to be an ongoing narrative.

Y'know, like 'The Internet' has been demanding for years.

[Path Walker]

Ionus doesn't feel like Mannfred though, and he's such a dick that I'd like to see him again being a massive arse rather than seemingly semi-repentant like Ionus is.

Mannfred's massive entitlement complex can transcend the end of the very world.

Also loved how Mannfred was basically a caricature of the fanbase in The End Times novels.

[daboarder]

And I think this is the biggest betrayal of the fanbase. I'm not keen on the rules, but to be honest I could probably turn my brain off, as many others on the boards already have, and 'enjoy' ZPG on it's own merit. But my Stirland army has no place in the New World Order, and the StormDeathBloodClaw Eternals are about as charismatic as a cyberman. When I gaze into the cold dead eyes of a Zigmarine model, I see the serried ranks of GeeDub accountants staring back.

"You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!"

essentially yes, AND I unfortunately dont see GW improving on it, they are no longer the sort of company to release books and products such as the Genevieve chronicles, the liber chaotica etc etc.

The new books will be Sigmarines doing epic and awesome things against epic and awesome Chaosequivalents.

there hasnt been ANY information on the world at large, no detail, there is none of the small things such as the elector counts, the intrigue and corruption of eleven nobles, their are no stories or infomation about HOW the world works beyond, "we all hold hands together" and "I must fight you for REASONS"

its saturday morning cartoon level of detail as opposed to frank herberts Dune.

[Erik Setzer]

Y'know, like 'The Internet' has been demanding for years.

I like when you and other people claim "This is what you guys wanted!" when really people were wanting:

- The EXISTING world to evolve.
- Skirmish put back in the main rulebook (like it was in 6th edition), allowing for smaller games
- Slight tweaking of the rules and some armies (like remove Banner of the World Dragon) to fix any balance issues.

Instead, they threw 30 years of world development and rules development out the window, never would bring back Skirmish (because God forbid anyone play the game with a handful of models, especially if said models aren't minimum $10 a piece), and have decided balance is something that doesn't matter and rely on the rabid fanatics to mock anyone who'd like a balanced game by claiming they're some kind of evil force trying to destroy the world by wanting to be able to do a pickup game without having some long discussion prior to setup.

And yes, balance is a mess. Last night I was talking to a friend who went to the local GW store, let the manager talk him into playing a game using the starter set Chaos guys, and after he got wiped out in one turn, the manager just brought out all his own personal Khorne stuff he'd gotten assembled and/or painted so far and put it on the table for my friend to use. It's bad when you're trying to convince a person to break into a game and their first experience is getting utterly annihilated before they can do anything. Granted, the player base at the GW store doesn't help, because for some reason the GW store is where the most WAAC-style players actually congregate.

And if AoS was "giving the people what they wanted" or remotely as good as people claim, then a 2000-copies-worldwide limited edition of what is actually a historic book in miniature games should have sold out quickly, not be available a week later.

[daboarder]

Erik, dont bother, he'll just find a different hoop or goalpost.

[Path Walker]

If you don't like what Age of Sigmar is offering, then you're not the customers GW wants any more, thats all there is to it, they've crunched the numbers and decided this is what's best for them, yes they'll lose customers but they're mainly the ones who you don't want being brand ambassadors and actually hampered recruitment. Deal with it, enjoy the game they've made, play the old one or move on.

This is the game they want to make, the people enjoying it are the customers they want to appeal to, they are going for it, the statue of the Stormcast Eternal is a sign of that, this is the future of Games Workshop. They recently bollocked a store manager for posting up a comp system, they actively don't want points values or any "balancing mechanic" than being a reasonable human being and the implicit social contract.

Complaining (3 weeks later) about a game isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

GW don't care about you, they don't owe you anything, so whats the point? I'm enjoying it, I love the game, I've played a lot more Age of Sigmar in the last month than Fantasy for the last 3 years, I've played pickup games (which are much easier now than before) and I've ran demos. If you won't try it and enjoy it for what it is, thats your choice, but whining isn't going to get you your way and it's not going to mean I don't like the game, so what exactly is the point?

[daboarder]

they probably havent crunched any numbers path, because GW doesnt do market resaerch, so they'd be missing a bunch of those number they are supposed to be crunching. And they CERTAINLY wont have had time to crunch and finalise the numbers for AoS sales yet as it is WAY to early to determine the success of the game.


and despite your continued snide attitude, most posters are discussing not complaining, AoS is what it is, Im still going to talk about what I think is good and bad about the product and your incessant whinning and continual attacks of other posters for their own opinions is grinding.

[Path Walker]

They do market research.

They know Fantasy players weren't spending money. They know why Fantasy wasn't being picked up by new customers. Age of Sigmar fixes those problems.

Saying put up or shut up isn't whining, and complaining a product you're not buying or never intend to buy is pointless. Stop trying to change this into people enjoying their hobby complaining, you're the ones moaning on. My attitude has been "enjoy it or don't", that's not a whine.

Feel free to keep complaining, I'll be playing games and having a blast doing it, free from people like you

[Mr Mystery]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/793225.jpg

[Path Walker]

My local 40k tournament was getting 30 people enter, the Fantasy one had 8.
A 40K campaign had 30 players (mostly different from the 30 in the tournament), the Fantasy one had 4 (all of whom played in the WFB Tournament)
My local GW, I saw one game of WFB played there for every 5-6 games of 40K.
Since AoS i've not seen anyone play anything else, probably because its new and exciting. I know more players who started AoS armies than ones who have spat the dummy out.

Fantasy needed to change and part of that change was ditching a toxic element of the fanbase.
If you don't like the new game, you're either part of that toxic element or an acceptable collateral loss.

[Mr Mystery]

Local GW had a noticeable dent in their Warhammer stock on Sunday.

Some of my long term gaming buddies who mostly do X-Wing and HH are getting geared up with their old Warhammer collections, and have been procuring the odd boxed set here and there.

[Erik Setzer]

The thing that makes critics even more bitter is that any criticism is met with nasty remarks and attitude. If you don't call AoS (or whatever GW product is being discussed at the time) the most perfect thing ever, you're attacked. It's ridiculous. Of course, that's easier than real discussion, because people eventually can't come up with more ways to try to claim that lack of balance is truly balanced, or a confusing jumble of background is really a good thing, or that it makes sense to have a game super-simplified to try to draw in a wide arrange of people while simultaneously pricing everything as if it's some premium niche product.

So ultimately, with no way to use reason or facts to defend their beloved deity, they fall back on insults or just telling people to shut up and say nothing, because only those who believe as they do are allowed to voice their opinions.

[Path Walker]

I know two 40k only players who bought Battalions after playing the starter game, and at least 3 more players who got their old WFB armies out, myself, I spent a week rebasing my Chaos Warriors and Beastmen to match my Nurgle Daemons, I'd played 2 games with the army in Fantasy, I've played dozens of AoS with them.

AoS works when you have groups of folk who want to spend time together and have a good time rolling dice without having to worry about being competitive.

If you want to beat an opponent, this isn't your game but there are loads of other games out there for them!

I've always seen that as the difference, a good opponent wants to win, a bad opponent wants you to lose.

[Mr Mystery]

I guess.

On the matter of Putrid Blightkings - I've just emailed GW to see what's occurring with them, and whether we might see them back in stock at any point.

I hope they are, because I want 10 more for the Garden of Nurgle, all to be armed with the most 'gardeny' weapons (scythes, sickles etc)

[Path Walker]

I think this article expresses it well.

http://www.corehammer.com/self-reflection-in-the-age-of-sigmar-brinton-williams/
(http://www.corehammer.com/self-reflection-in-the-age-of-sigmar-brinton-williams/)

There is balance, its balanced by players choosing to be good people. It works better than any points system ever could. You had overpowered units with the point systems. Now, if you think something is overpowered, you adjust around it between yourselves.

The comments section is great, includes such gems as Gave Thorpe slapping someones daft comment down then people demanding that Gav Thrope explain why the game he wrote is different and why he's betrayed gamers (He didn't have anything to do with the development of the game having left the design studio many years ago and only being a freelance writer for Black Library)

[Erik Setzer]

Local GW had a noticeable dent in their Warhammer stock on Sunday.

Some of my long term gaming buddies who mostly do X-Wing and HH are getting geared up with their old Warhammer collections, and have been procuring the odd boxed set here and there.

Local GW lost most of their Warhammer players with AoS's release, seeing a lot of armies being sold off cheap (or even given away), with 40K players and HH players, much less players of other games, expressing not only a lack of interest but also revulsion at a beer-and-pretzels game with goofy rules and niche premium pricing.

Anecdotes mean nothing. Your experience doesn't mean all experiences are the same. I'd bet our local manager is getting annoyed with the inability to move product. (And no, it's not his fault. He's the guy responsible for me dropping so much money on GW stuff in the last couple years.)

It's much more telling that GW can't sell out a limited product. Granted, I just did my best to help them with that, because heck, I just got paid and I still have a $10 voucher from pointing out an issue on their site, and this is a piece of gaming history, being a replacement for a game that ran 30 years. Still amazed it's not sold out yet. (I just feel bad that I couldn't get to the local store to pay in-store, so the manager won't get the credit for the sale. Really wish they'd give credit when the item is shipped to the store.)

But hey, does me plunking down $130 buy me the ability to comment without being told to shut up because I'm not 100% positive?

[Path Walker]

Old customers don't spend much anyway, especially fantasy players, they'll be replaced with new customers who will be much easier to recruit now.

[Mr Mystery]

Erik...the problem isn't you not feeling the game. Nothing is for everyone after all.

It's the constant mentioning of how much you don't enjoy it. Let it go dude. It is what it is. Bellyaching isn't going to change that.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/793225.jpg

Hello Dave? Is that Dave there? My wife would like to use your toilet.

[Cutter]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/793225.jpg

Tubbs: Will the Celestial Realm be like Swansea?

Edward: Yes, Tubbs. Only... bigger.

[Mr Mystery]

Lol!


Thanks for the email.

I am afraid that we do not know exactly when the Putrid Blightkings will be returning to our shelves, but please rest assured, its not that easy to get rid of Nurgle!

If you want to make sure you get the most up to date information on returning products, then we suggest subscribing to the newsletter if you have not already done so.

[Erik Setzer]

Erik...the problem isn't you not feeling the game. Nothing is for everyone after all.

It's the constant mentioning of how much you don't enjoy it. Let it go dude. It is what it is. Bellyaching isn't going to change that.

Bellyaching about me commenting my own opinion isn't going to change what my opinion is, or that it differs from yours. So you could also "let it go."

Or just stop trying to shut people up when they disagree. Accept that not everyone will think everything GW puts out is perfection incarnate.

[Path Walker]

Oh Erik.

[Mr Mystery]

Poster A opens a thread 'things I like about AoS'

Poster B comes along, posts in thread about 'things I like about AoS', but posts what they don't like about AoS.

If you don't like it, then as I said, totally fair enough. But why continue to inform people who are enjoying it that you don't like it? Why point out to people enjoy it the flaws you perceive in the game you don't play?

I'm genuinely struggling to understand - general rule of thumb, stuff I don't enjoy gets ignored by me entirely. If I get dragged into a Nightclub by my friends, I don't go on about how crap I find modern music, or how much I enjoy 80's Metal more. I sit in the corner with my grump face on, drinking the watered down, over priced lager until we go home.

In short - why harsh anyone else's mellow?

[Erik Setzer]

Poster A opens a thread 'things I like about AoS'

Poster B comes along, posts in thread about 'things I like about AoS', but posts what they don't like about AoS.

If you don't like it, then as I said, totally fair enough. But why continue to inform people who are enjoying it that you don't like it? Why point out to people enjoy it the flaws you perceive in the game you don't play?

I'm genuinely struggling to understand - general rule of thumb, stuff I don't enjoy gets ignored by me entirely. If I get dragged into a Nightclub by my friends, I don't go on about how crap I find modern music, or how much I enjoy 80's Metal more. I sit in the corner with my grump face on, drinking the watered down, over priced lager until we go home.

In short - why harsh anyone else's mellow?


Right, so here's where I call you out.

There's *one* topic about what people like about AoS. And just in case my memory wasn't entirely up to snuff, I double-checked. I didn't post anything on it. There's a post about "Who's close to having a new army?" Hey, maybe that's something like what you meant? Oh, wait, I'm saying nothing negative there, either. What about the one asking where to buy AoS, which maybe counts because someone has to like it if they want to buy it? Hey, what do you know, I'm pointing a guy to an affordable place to get the game.

This topic here is about the new products. Not "Say what you like about the new products!" It's just for discussion of the products. DISCUSSION. Nowhere does it say only 100% positive comments can be made.

In short, I've left alone (or even contributed to) topics that are geared toward just positive comments about AoS. Where it's a topic for discussion, which allows for criticism, I have voiced criticisms.

You apparently can't be bothered with facts, and that's the kind of thing that upsets more than if AoS had said, "All old models are obsolete, use only new stuff." It's your attitude. I'm not "harshing your mellow." You're trying to stifle any criticism, even in topics specifically for discussion of products, and you're even going so far as to be dishonest about people in order to try to shut them up. If you have to lie about things, doesn't that serve as a good hint that you're wrong?

Or hey, maybe you confused me with someone else. If so, I'll be nice and accept an apology. Maybe you get people confused online, hey, we're all just names on a screen, it happens.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the only reason I'm not playing it - and, again, I'm trying to build two different armies that are really only usable in AoS - is because the gamers in this area are split between the people too pissed off to want anything to do with any version of Warhammer any more, or the jerk brigade who love that AoS lets them make even more broken armies than they could before. I don't want to play with people who make WAAC players seem nice and will talk down to you, and I can't convince the other people to stop selling off their armies and give it a try. For now, I'm hoping for a better future, assembling armies that I hope will still be usable then, and looking at throwing some of the money I would have otherwise spent on Warhammer into 30K instead (which has a nice growing community... including new members who'd been Warhammer players who refuse to play AoS).

[Wildeybeast]

Old customers don't spend much anyway, especially fantasy players, they'll be replaced with new customers who will be much easier to recruit now.

Everyone trumpets this around like its some piece of divine wisdom whilst missing the obvious. Long term Warhammer players weren't spending much because GW weren't making anything new for us to buy! People already had all the stuff they wanted and were desperate for new Warhammer stuff to fling our money at. End Times massively outsold GW's expectations and showed just how much enthusiasm there was for Warhammer.

My gripe is that they could have found a balance between the old stuff everyone loved and the things in AoS that appeal to the new market they want. On the subject of balance, can we please stop this nonsense about social pleasantly being the only balancing mechanic people need. I only play with my friends, none of us ever plays WAAC armies or looks for beardy advantages. We are all fairly experienced and good players and we need balance. Even slight imbalances or mistakes result in some one getting trounced, so without a mechanic for ensuring a level playing field to start with, we have no chance for enjoyable games.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, End Times petered out in the end with sales. The hardcover of Thanquol didn't sell out online, and Archaon was left on the shelves of many stores. But that was about the time people realized that no new edition was coming, so in a few months all those books would no longer be supported.

AoS isn't going to do more to attract new players than Warhammer with Skirmish added back in would have. You could have put the WFB rules online free as well. Heck, you could have skimmed them a bit, and people wouldn't mind. Instead, they threw it out. So now we have a game where, yeah, you don't have to pay for rules. but already we seen infantry at $50 for just five, $33/$40 for infantry characters (the latter has a pet!!!), $33 for a "gauge" (ha!), $40 for a dice cup, $74 for a book (which you need if you want to play anything other than "shove your models to the center of the table and whoever comes out on top wins"), and you can imagine prices will stay like that. And given that games with 25 or fewer models on a side will take maybe a half-hour, people will want more models... but that's already over $200 just for the models. It'll be right up there on cost of building an army, before you add the premium-priced books and side items.

[Kirsten]

well we will need to see more of what happens first. we only have one Age of Sigmar faction so far, and they are large models, so we cannot really speculate about model price going forward. the book and accessories are all optional, so don't really point toward any scheme by GW. all we can do is wait and see what the next few armies come out with.

[40kGamer]

On the subject of balance, can we please stop this nonsense about social pleasantly being the only balancing mechanic people need. I only play with my friends, none of us ever plays WAAC armies or looks for beardy advantages. We are all fairly experienced and good players and we need balance. Even slight imbalances or mistakes result in some one getting trounced, so without a mechanic for ensuring a level playing field to start with, we have no chance for enjoyable games.

You're obviously doing it wrong you WAAC *******! :p

Seriously though it is NOT easy to balance this on the fly because unlike Historical games that can function through player balance AoS has more variety and weird special rules... and this is before they start layering more stuff into it.

[daboarder]

It will be even harder to balance when people no longer even have the reference that the old points system was

[Lexington]

I only play with my friends, none of us ever plays WAAC armies or looks for beardy advantages. We are all fairly experienced and good players and we need balance. Even slight imbalances or mistakes result in some one getting trounced, so without a mechanic for ensuring a level playing field to start with, we have no chance for enjoyable games.
I've thought about this, too. If balance is so easy that any two reasonable people can come together and create it, why haven't GW's full-time gaming professionals been able to develop pristine examples perfect balance since the start of the company?

[40kGamer]

I've thought about this, too. If balance is so easy that any two reasonable people can come together and create it, why haven't GW's full-time gaming professionals been able to develop pristine examples perfect balance since the start of the company?

For such a perfect observation.

http://l.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/DxhEZ6fgi1AFd6ZGaxK0FA--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MzAwO3E9OTU7dz00MDA-/http://i.qkme.me/36e89g.jpg

[Mr Mystery]

I've thought about this, too. If balance is so easy that any two reasonable people can come together and create it, why haven't GW's full-time gaming professionals been able to develop pristine examples perfect balance since the start of the company?

Because of bad loser syndrome.

First up, caveat. This is not universal by any means.

But for GW, they can only do so much play testing. If you want to get something on the shelves and into out pasty, sweaty mitts, you have a finite amount of time do it in.

Then you have a peculiar take on confirmation bias. Those who get to play test GW's games are, like it or not, of a broadly similar mindset, as in the game is meant to be challenging yet fun.

So you've done it your end, and you have a consensus that Product A is 'about right'.

Release day comes around.

Suddenly.......thousands upon thousands of Nerds get to have their say.

Player A has played Product A for yonks. They have an extensive collection. They take on Player B, who,has played for a similar amount of yonks.

Player A finds the new stuff to their tactical liking, and simply flattens Player B. Player A has the collection, and new rules, and are thusly able to blindside Player B.

Player B suddenly declares 'OMG BORKED'.

Player B heads to the Internet a declares 'OMG BORKED, and finds similar Player B's also declaring 'OMG, BORKED'

Player B's opinion becomes received opinion. Those with no experience of the army Player A fielded, let alone knowledge of the tactics simply reads that Player A's army is well borked, innit bruv.

And from there, the opinion propagates.

Now, remove points?

I can no longer say 'you're such a beardy player' as there are no restrictions to be Mathhammered. I can't say your were cheesey, and vice versa.

Instead, a simple 'your a total ****ing dribble tramp penis, and I never want to play you again, you sad, pathetic arsehole' will suffice.

The curtain is drawn. There's nowhere to hide.

[daboarder]

Honestly why are you part of this community given your obvious dislike of the community itself. I mean the idea that you use nerd as an insult? The hell man you may have not noticed but you're a "nerd" too.

Edit furthermore the community is made up of all sorts of people from investment bankers to lawyers to scientists. These people are likely pretty intelligent and able to critically evaluate a set of relatively limited variables. The idea that they arent is patently ridiculous. The community is not a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters its a collection of rather intelligent people all working towards solving a "problem" this is why community consensus is usually pretty spot on. The strongest argument becomes the consensus because it has a shed load of experimental evidence and critical evaluation to back it up

[40kGamer]

But for GW, they can only do so much play testing. If you want to get something on the shelves and into out pasty, sweaty mitts, you have a finite amount of time do it in.

I still maintain any game can be statistically balanced with a complex algorithm which could be confirmed or disproved with limited playtesting.


Then you have a peculiar take on confirmation bias. Those who get to play test GW's games are, like it or not, of a broadly similar mindset, as in the game is meant to be challenging yet fun.

Challenging in the way that the entire design philosophy shifts before we ever see an entire cycle of rules for all the armies?

- - - Updated - - -


Honestly why are you part of this community given your obvious dislike of the community itself. I mean the idea that you use nerd as an insult? The hell man you may have not noticed but you're a "nerd" too.

Edit furthermore the community is made up of all sorts of people from investment bankers to lawyers to scientists. These people are likely pretty intelligent and able to critically evaluate a set of relatively limited variables. The idea that they arent is patently ridiculous. The community is not a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters its a collection of rather intelligent people all working towards solving a "problem" this is why community consensus is usually pretty spot on. The strongest argument becomes the consensus because it has a shed load of experimental evidence and critical evaluation to back it up

Don't forget charter accountants, Doctors and CFOs... 'nerds' tend to do quite well in life.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

It's raining.
I open my umbrella.
There is a hole in my umbrella.
I discard the umbrella in a dumpster.
Now there isn't a hole in my umbrella.

[Wildeybeast]

Because of bad loser syndrome.

First up, caveat. This is not universal by any means.

But for GW, they can only do so much play testing. If you want to get something on the shelves and into out pasty, sweaty mitts, you have a finite amount of time do it in.

Then you have a peculiar take on confirmation bias. Those who get to play test GW's games are, like it or not, of a broadly similar mindset, as in the game is meant to be challenging yet fun.

So you've done it your end, and you have a consensus that Product A is 'about right'.

Release day comes around.

Suddenly.......thousands upon thousands of Nerds get to have their say.

Player A has played Product A for yonks. They have an extensive collection. They take on Player B, who,has played for a similar amount of yonks.

Player A finds the new stuff to their tactical liking, and simply flattens Player B. Player A has the collection, and new rules, and are thusly able to blindside Player B.

Player B suddenly declares 'OMG BORKED'.

Player B heads to the Internet a declares 'OMG BORKED, and finds similar Player B's also declaring 'OMG, BORKED'

Player B's opinion becomes received opinion. Those with no experience of the army Player A fielded, let alone knowledge of the tactics simply reads that Player A's army is well borked, innit bruv.

And from there, the opinion propagates.

Now, remove points?

I can no longer say 'you're such a beardy player' as there are no restrictions to be Mathhammered. I can't say your were cheesey, and vice versa.

Instead, a simple 'your a total ****ing dribble tramp penis, and I never want to play you again, you sad, pathetic arsehole' will suffice.

The curtain is drawn. There's nowhere to hide.

Mystery, I don't know whether you read my post, because it feels like you are being completely dismissive of the point I am making and furthermore that you are suggesting that I am player B, which I find rather offensive. It's not a question of not being able to adapt, it's about providing a level playing field, which even you would have to admit is a fine art in AoS.

As for play testing, we now know that this was at least in the planning stages when the Sigmar's Blood campaign came out, which was at least a couple of years ago, so there has been plenty of time. The lack of a balancing system is a very deliberate design choice, designed so kids can rock up and chuck down whatever cool units they have just bought. In that regard it's great, but if you want a rigorous but balanced tactical game, it's less so.

[Cutter]

Back to the topic of the thread.

The Realmgates and Archway are nice enough lumps of plastic, a bit 2 dimensional, hinting at buildings but not being buildings, which in turn just makes me nostalgic for the old plastic buildings that went away. It also strikes me that they are doors that don't go anyway, which seems to be an appropriate metaphor for AoS itself.

The Lord-Castellant certainly fills his (not important for this game) base and the model is a lot busier than the rank and file* Sigmarine. Something more to get involved in for the painters. Still not keen on the Sigmarese on the streamers, or the streamers themselves for that matter. They're like purity seals but turned up to 11. Also not stoked about his collection tin, but I can see him standing on the corner of one of those vast avenues of Skytown, rattling away with it. Those golden palaces aren't cheap ya know...

And then there's Brian. He's a nice idea but front half looks like he's walking while that back half looks static. I been around dogs a good deal of my life and I've never seen one stand like that. But then I've never seen one with a eagle's head either.

Overall I'd give this weeks releases 2 Hammers of Sigmar.


And now the first in our regular series, How Long Is It Going To Take For The Warhammer Age of Sigmar Book - Limited Edition To Sell Out (or quietly go away). One week in and it's still available, and they haven't even got to the 'we only have x hundred left' stage. For a global release this is pretty whacky.

Tune in next week to see if it's still available.




*Do you remember ranks and files? They were great. Kings of War still uses those. Ace.

[Erik Setzer]

well we will need to see more of what happens first. we only have one Age of Sigmar faction so far, and they are large models, so we cannot really speculate about model price going forward. the book and accessories are all optional, so don't really point toward any scheme by GW. all we can do is wait and see what the next few armies come out with.

One would imagine that basic humans aren't $10 each, but since they increased their size to be taller than Space Marines, they'll probably aim for something more than normal.

The book and accessories being optional *do* point toward a "scheme" by GW (not the best word but I suppose it works) to overprice the accessories for the game as if they were premium products. Net result seems to be that they'll have plenty of leftovers.

Sure, we can remain optimistic. But when you come out with a game and the first faction and items you're pushing aren't entirely priced friendly for the wider audience you're trying to attract, that's a sign of management bungling. The core game isn't horrible priced (though $125 is starting to be too much for starter sets, which is why others keep them at $100 or less, even if you have to include a bit less in them), but outside of that it's not really welcoming to getting new people in. 40K players are already "programmed" (again not an ideal word, but it gets the point across) to give GW their money for products and are used to the prices, but you can't just try to build AoS on the backs of whatever 40K players might jump ship.

Really, I'm just more annoyed with their management and marketing team. And before someone says "Well, they've been in the business for years, so clearly they know what to do," I'll remind those folks that these people running the management and marketing at GW found a way to take a 30-year-old game that was major in helping GW rise to power and forming the modern miniature gaming hobby, and ran it hard into the ground, while also killing off every game outside of the core two (plus the Hobbit/LotR franchise, which somehow never managed to do well for them, despite it being freaking Tolkien and those movies being super-popular). So, yeah, I think we can criticize the leadership now.

- - - Updated - - -


But for GW, they can only do so much play testing. If you want to get something on the shelves and into out pasty, sweaty mitts, you have a finite amount of time do it in.

Well, their own pasty, sweaty mitts don't do much before they put it in your pasty, sweaty mitts. Play-testing would reveal a lot of issues with recent codices, formations, and Age of Sigmar itself. Especially if they did any external playtesting. Instead, they try to live in a shell and only do stuff internally.

And if the rushed schedule means even less playtesting than what they were down to, I'm even more unhappy with it, because it means quantity is getting more important than quality.

If other companies, especially smaller companies, can reach out to gamers and get feedback and do more playtesting and all, then there's no excuse for Games Workshop.

It's also sad that you continue to try to defend bad decisions by the company by attacking the gamers. If you worked for GW and spoke for them in an official capacity, you'd be destroying sales right now. I also feel like, for all that you talk up your own local community, it says how bad they must be that you have these wild assumptions about everyone else.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

So, like, let's be real for a second: how many of these threads, now, have gone exactly the same way, with exactly the same argument? Even respecting all your positions and all your reasons for holding them, aren't you all bored of the same back and forth, back and forth over and over again? Isn't this the forum for rumours?

[Kirsten]

It's raining.
I open my umbrella.
There is a hole in my umbrella.
I discard the umbrella in a dumpster.
Now there isn't a hole in my umbrella.

lol