Ymgarl Genestealers, Scout, and Infiltrate: Which order?

[Lerra]

In a game with infiltrators and units with scout, when does the tyranid player have to decide which terrain piece the Ymgarl genestealers are lying dormant in?

From the Tyranid codex: "Ymgarl Genestealers can elect to start the game in a dormant state. . . . If you choose to do this, the brood is not deployed with the rest of the army. Instead, after both sides have deployed, secretly write down which piece of terrain they are lying dormant in."

Infiltrate USR: "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed.

Scout USR: ". . . after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move."

Both the Ymgarl Genies and units with Scout trigger "after both sides have deployed". I haven't been able to find an answer to this question from RAW.

[Madness]

I'd go by the old codex trumps rulebook mantra, thus making 'stealer go at the very last in the deployment phase.
Scout works after the deployment phase (in fact, before the first normal turn), so I'd do Infiltrate, hidden positioning, scout moves.

[sebi81]

as infiltrators "deploy" they go before the ymgarl genestealers must write down where they may be. but scouts are a tough question... the scout move is no deployment, so the stealers are not after the scouts. you could say, the stealers use a special deployment, instead of scouts, which only get a move after deployment. so my opinion is infiltrate-ymgarl-scouts too.

[Ferro]

You're not reading the full entry. Ymgarls are in Reserve, but deploy into a specific piece of terrain which you have written down in advance. Infiltrate and Scout have nothing to do with it.

[Lerra]

The order is important because the choice of terrain might change based on enemy scout moves. Keep in mind that Ymgarl genestealers are destroyed if the chosen piece of terrain is occupied by, say, Tau Pathfinders who use the scout move to enter the terrain and sit there shooting the entire game.

[Ferro]

Oh my goodness, my bad! I was hung up on the term 'declared' in the first post... they aren't 'declared' until after making their reserve roll. As to when is their position decided/chosen... you raise a good question! :D

[Nabterayl]

A good question indeed. I'd tentatively suggest that their terrain should be selected at the same time as enemy infiltrators deploy, in the same trade-off fashion, because:

You can build an analogy to infiltrators themselves. If both players have infiltrators to deploy, they take turns deploying them. Now, the rulebook explicitly tells us to do that, but we can reasonably infer that this is the compromise chosen to resolve the dilemma of two units that simultaneously must deploy after all other units have been deployed, and yet whose deployment interacts with each other.

Ymgarl Genestealers are like that, in that they also must deploy (well, secretly choose a place to deploy in later, anyway) after all other units have been deployed (apparently simultaneously), and their choice is affected by the deployment of other units which must deploy at the same time. So I'd suggest that you treat writing down the terrain choice for a group of Ymgarl Genestealers as an infiltrating unit - e.g., enemy deploys infiltrators (assuming he won the roll-off), you write down your genestealers, enemy deploys more infiltrators.

[Madness]

I'd roll it off if the competing rules were both codex or both BRB rules, but in this case we have infiltrate that says "do me as the last thing" and the 'stealers saying "note down where I'll pop as the last thing", codex trumps rulebook, so the TRULY last thing should be noting down the stealers. Scout says "right before the first turn" so I'd still do it after having marked the terrain.

But for stuff with equivalent priority a roll off is inevitable.

[DarkLink]

A good question indeed. I'd tentatively suggest that their terrain should be selected at the same time as enemy infiltrators deploy, in the same trade-off fashion, because:


Here's the way I think of it: We have normal deployment, then we have a second deployment. During the second deployment, all scouts, infiltrators, genestealers, etc are placed all at the same time.

[Culven]

I think that it would make the most sense (at least to me) if the Ymgarl Stealers' location were to be noted after Infiltrators are placed, but before Scout moves. That is just my initial reaction since I can't think of anything that would better define whether noting their location or Scout moves should have priority.

[karandras]

I think Nabterayl's suggestion is best to treat them like a unit of infiltrators.

That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to an opponent marking them down after I placed my infiltrators since there seems to be some ambiguity (shock!).

They definitely have to be "placed" prior to scout moves though.

[rle68]

In a game with infiltrators and units with scout, when does the tyranid player have to decide which terrain piece the Ymgarl genestealers are lying dormant in?

From the Tyranid codex: "Ymgarl Genestealers can elect to start the game in a dormant state. . . . If you choose to do this, the brood is not deployed with the rest of the army. Instead, after both sides have deployed, secretly write down which piece of terrain they are lying dormant in."

Infiltrate USR: "Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed.

Scout USR: ". . . after both sides have deployed (including infiltrators), but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move."

Both the Ymgarl Genies and units with Scout trigger "after both sides have deployed". I haven't been able to find an answer to this question from RAW.

:::: Instead, after both sides have deployed,:::: its right there after both sides have deployed you have the infiltrate phase it would seem to me that you would then both roll to see who places or writes down first then scout moves occur by order of operations

[HsojVvad]

The way I read it, is when I deploy my forces, that is when you write down where the Ymargl genestealers go. It is part of your deployment. Why would they go before Infiltrators? Nothing in the rules says this, so they don't.

Whey you deploy any footslogging units, that is when you deploy your Ymargls. They don't infiltrate, they don't scout, so they have to deploy either on foot, or they deploy when they are dormant. Dormant means they deploy secretly adn your opponent dosn't know where, unless there is only one piece of terrian lol. :eek:

So, Ymargle Geanstlealers always deploy nomraly. You would deploy them if they are footslogging on Turn One, or you deploy them in a Dormant state. But they are both done at the same time, before Infiltrators move and scouts move.

[rle68]

i guess you didnt read the post above you where it says after both sides have deployed guess you missed that huh ?

[HsojVvad]

i guess you didnt read the post above you where it says after both sides have deployed guess you missed that huh ?

Well it's funny, that I don't see this in the codex. Can you show me where it is in the codex that says this huh?

[HsojVvad]

:::: Instead, after both sides have deployed,:::: its right there after both sides have deployed you have the infiltrate phase it would seem to me that you would then both roll to see who places or writes down first then scout moves occur by order of operations

yes I did read this. Lets see what is says. It says after both sides have deployed you have the infiltrate phase. To me this sounds infiltrate goes first, then you bot roll to see who places or writes down, then the scout move goes last.

I am saying this is wrong. You deploy either on foot, or you go dormant, but you still have to deploy, but the location is in secret. Then you do the infiltrate, and then you do your scout move.

So what is your point about "huh?". I am saying you are wrong, why am I wrong then and you are not?

[rle68]

"""From the Tyranid codex: "Ymgarl Genestealers can elect to start the game in a dormant state. . . . If you choose to do this, the brood is not deployed with the rest of the army. Instead, after both sides have deployed, secretly write down which piece of terrain they are lying dormant in." """"

i dont see what your issue is it says right there

now unless you think you get some super secret new deployment phase for this unit which of course you dont after deployment comes infiltrate... which you both have an action in that phase you roll for who acts first end of sentence

i dont really care if you think im wrong or not im saying you did not read

[HsojVvad]

I did read it. Once both sides have deployed then you have to write down secretly for the Ymgrals. That is still before Infiltrate.

What special super secret new deployment phase are you talking about? Are you talking about the one that goes after Infiltrate? Or is Infiltrating part of the deployment phase and is not a special case?